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Triple7s
28-12-2009, 00:37
Hey

I have a unit of chaos knights which, while they look great, don't rank up with full base contact in places. Theres not a huge gap, but its there, so i'm wondering if theres an official rule against having a slightly larger movement tray to compensate, or do the knights absolutely HAVE to be in base contact to count as being correctly ranked?

Cheers for any help

EldarBishop
28-12-2009, 00:46
Calvary units should be Y * 25mm wide, where Y is the number of models in the front rank.

What's the problem? The models are glued to the bases not centred? or All in the exact same "depth" into the base and all the knights "feet" touch each other?

I had a similar issue with some of my Bretonnian Knights... the solution for me was to stagger them on their bases slighty "depth"-wise.

Triple7s
28-12-2009, 00:59
Thanks for the reply, the biggest problem is that the models rank up fine until shields etc. are attatched, at which point theres no way to get them on without causing a slight break in the rank. I didn't think of the staggering idea tbh...if i'm going to put them all on a movement tray, that might be the best idea. I just didn't want to have my knights rendered game illegal due to the small distance between the bases.

Agnar the Howler
28-12-2009, 01:30
I have similar problems with ranking my lizards up. I find that weapons and shields render complete ranking impossible in some places, and sometimes bases need to be move diagonally slightly or shuffled slightly to the side.

Larger movement trays shouldn't be a problem as long as it's made clear that your knight is only in a certain part of it because it can't physically rank up due to blockages and that it's agreed where the knight actually is in game terms (i.e. right next to the other ones). It's like trying to place models on sloped terrain or terrain where their bases don't fit correctly on ledges. As long as you've agreed where they are in game terms (a bit of blue tac to mark the spot or a spare die or something should suffice) then it shouldn't be a problem, and anyone that can't be slightly leniant and expects everyone to re-build their models so that they rank up perfectly should be:

a) shot
b) ignored

Albeit not particularly in that order. If you can, against those people i'd pack up and leave, they obviously aren't worth your time if they're already nit-picking before the game has even started.

Skyth
28-12-2009, 02:53
Yeah...The Chaos Knights are beautiful models, but they don't rank up well at all. Even though I've staggered mine, they still have issues.

Around here, we generaly play mathmatical for who can fight, etc...(You're 6 across on 20mm bases and your opponent is 60mm wide, you will be able to fight with 5 models (60mm plus one model on either side). regardless of how they actually touch.

Taishar
28-12-2009, 03:22
I'd suggest repositing the models till they rank up. It's just not worth the hassle of explaining it every game.


Cheers

Geddonight
28-12-2009, 03:33
I've had to number my 2 units of knights--there's a very specific order in which they fit. Kinda a pain, but at least I had the foresight to model them to fit, if not be fully interchangeable.

pootleberry
28-12-2009, 16:55
I had a similar problem with my Dwarf Warriors. So long as you explain what's going on with your cavalry then there really shouldn't be a problem. If people do have a problem with that then mark them down heavily for poor sportsmanship.

Azethel
02-01-2010, 14:15
I've had to number my 2 units of knights--there's a very specific order in which they fit. Kinda a pain, but at least I had the foresight to model them to fit, if not be fully interchangeable.

I did a similar thing with my unit of old warriors from when 4x4 was 4 ranks...such a bitch when it changed to 5wide for ranks 0.o My knights also have a specific way they rank up.

I use movement trays that are slightly wider than the unit and when in combat my gaming group also mathematically works out who can fight. Its a similar issue to when a spiky spear unit cannot fit base to base with the unit it is fighting. You just acknowledge that they are touching in theory and work it out with a bit of imagination.

Short answer, there shouldnt be any problem in your movement tray being a little bigger than 25x* as long as the difference is within reason.

edit - proof reading ftl.

El_Chaffinch
03-01-2010, 20:48
there are no rules against it, its just best to avoid it as it allows more enemy models to reach base contact and therefor attack you :P

jrodrag
03-01-2010, 21:25
I wouldn't let small gaps like this spoil your enjoyment of the game. The small gaps are easily overcome with a minimum of math to determine the correct number of people in base contact. There are a lot of models that GW has that do not rank up well without some forethought in assembly and almost all of thier skirmishing models have issues when they get into combat. Just know how wide the unit is supposed to be and make it work.

Unuhexium
03-01-2010, 22:14
Yeah...The Chaos Knights are beautiful models, but they don't rank up well at all. Even though I've staggered mine, they still have issues.

Around here, we generaly play mathmatical for who can fight, etc...(You're 6 across on 20mm bases and your opponent is 60mm wide, you will be able to fight with 5 models (60mm plus one model on either side). regardless of how they actually touch.

This is the way we do it around here as well. If you know the base sizes it's usually very easy to calculate who can fight and such and no repositioning is needed.

nzdarkelf
03-01-2010, 22:33
We do the same as Unuhxium. Base your cavalry up as best you can, and as a fellow WoC player may all your 1's be 6's.

Thurizdan
03-01-2010, 23:20
Don't forget that the bases aren't all the correct size. A cavalry base is slightly longer than a large monster base even though they're both supposed to be 50mm long. So a small gap is quite forgivable. If somebody absolutely refuses to allow it, try turning every alternate model to face backwards and see if this helps them fit. If they won't let you do this, leave.

nzdarkelf
04-01-2010, 03:02
I think if you find yourself playing against a guy who has a problem with it, you are going to find he has a few other rules issues as well. Try stretching your arm out (offering a handshake) and say "Thanks for the game..." See how he reacts. Its meant to be fun, so why bother continuing if its not.

Infact BRB, p3, under the heading "The Most Important Rule!" - "Remember, you're playing to enjoy a challenging battle with friends, where having fun and keeping to the spirit of the game is more important than winning at any cost."

How many games have you played in where "The Most Important Rule" isn't applied?

Poseidal
04-01-2010, 10:57
We normally play by treating it mathematically. It would be hard even for two units to touch, and movement trays will complicate things.

That said, Chaos Knights can be made to rank up.

Steve Riese
02-12-2012, 03:41
Have had the same problem with a number of GW models. Even when you get them to fit, the ranked up regiment usually don't look good (IMHO). I think GW have worked themselves into a bind, making their models ever bigger, but still using the same bases.

belgarath97
06-12-2012, 01:21
As a player I probably wouldn't miind if I played against you. Make sure that you clearly define the actual position of the unit at all times. It's not just important in combat, but in movement, and charging. Knowing where each unit begins and ends and effect a wheel or the ability to charge past a unit to one behind it. And in a competitive environment if you didn't do this and it became an issue I would mark you down heavily for poor sportsmanship. In a friendly game, I would just address it every time we played there after.

Honestly, having built a fair few units that traditionally have trouble ranking up, I can tell you with a little prep work and planning there isn't a unit that can't be ranked up. I really suggest saving yourself the hassle and rebase the models in a way that allows them to rank up. Even if to have to mark them so you know which model goes where in the unit, rendering them not really interchangable, it not worth the hassles that might arrive in a game situation. Because the burden of making sure you do not gain any advantage from them not ranking up right falls on you, each and every game.

theunwantedbeing
06-12-2012, 08:48
I really suggest saving yourself the hassle and rebase the models in a way that allows them to rank up.

Agreed, solve the problem rather than treating the symptoms for the rest of the life of those models.

Danny76
12-12-2012, 00:59
Every model I own has a number etched under the base for ranking order. I built them onto the bases ranked up to be sure (and they work in multiple widths too if you plan it out right..)
Bit of work, but way better in the long run.