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View Full Version : Solid Competitive WoC [2250] [ETC]



Khemed
28-12-2009, 11:27
Hey, that'd be my all-comers WoC army, please let me know of any flaws and methods to optimize the list.

(I'm playing with the ETC rules, with a slight variation in the PD/DD limit, which in that case is max.12PD/8DD)

EDIT: made some changes to the list - removed a unit of warhounds due to ETC restrictions, gave all Horsemen LA, reduced Marauder block to x20, gave Lvl4 Sword of Might, made Exalted a BSB and gave him FotG. 2249pts. total now.

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Characters:

Ymir, the Gray Apostle
Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch [General] (430pts.)
MoT, Lvl 4, Spell Familiar, Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Enchanted Shield, Book of Secrets, Sword of Might, Conjoined Homunculus, Disc of Tzeentch

Scraag
Chaos Nurgle Sorcerer (206pts.)
MoN, Lvl 2, Power Familiar, Dispell Scroll, Chaos Steed

Bolverk
Chaos Nurgle Sorcerer (191pts.)
MoN, Lvl 2, Infernal Puppet, Chaos Steed

Ymir's Hound
Exalted Hero [BSB] (234pts.)
MoT, Shield, Flail, Armour of Morrslieb, Favour of the Gods, Bloodcurdling Roar, Disc of Tzeentch

Core:

Chaos Marauders x 20 (150pts.)
MoS, FC, Shields, LA
/sorcerer bunker/

Marauder Horsemen x 5 (96pts.)
MoS, Musician, Flails, LA

Marauder Horsemen x 5 (96pts.)
MoS, Musician, Flails, LA.

Marauder Horsemen x 5 (96pts.)
MoS, Musician, Flails, LA

Warhounds x 5 (30pts.)

Warhounds x 5 (30pts.)

Warhounds x 5 (30pts.)

Special:

Chaos Knights x6 (335pts.)
MoN, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Rage

Chaos Knights x6 (325pts.)
MoK, Musician, Standard Bearer, Warbanner

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//shave off mus. from MoN knights, swap MoK for MoS on the other unit, remove conj. homunculus and fotg and I've got myself an optional spawn as well.


Basicaly, that's 2249 pts. total. 12 PD/6DD.


What I wanted to know is if I could optimize the list a bit more(...).


Cheers in advance,
Kmd.

Unuhexium
28-12-2009, 12:08
You are correct that 2x Banner of Rage (or any banner/magic item for that matter) are illegal. Btw, you forgot to write "Knights" and amount in your list.

About spawns, they would probably do well with MoS (for ASF) and used to cover your flanks. A spawn is strong enough to kill almost everything in btb and since they can charge in any direction, they can't be ignored. So if an opponent wants to flank your guys he'll have to spend at least a turn or two tangling with that 65 pts speedbump... or spend a turn of shooting first. Not sure if spawns would work in a cavalry army, they're probably too slow, but that's how I'd use them in just about any army.

captainAurelius
28-12-2009, 12:50
I think the horsemen units with flails and MoS are good and all three units should be set up this way. They seem more focussed than the spears throwing axe unit, which as you say look a bit expensive. (optical illusion :eek:)

Nice characters; good individual and general setup.


A spawn is a good idea. I think the vanilla cheap and cheerful version is best.
Looking for wiggle room: spare points from 3rd unit of horsemen equipment, banner setup on knights, perhaps musicians on knights and bloodcurling roar all stand out as extras.

I prefer a mix of infantry and cavalry myself but would definately play with this list.

Khemed
02-01-2010, 23:58
Arlight, changed the second unit of knights to 6xMoK Knights, mus.,standard, warbanner, stripped the horsemen of all equipment except flails and musician, that leaves me with some points, if I cut back some more I'll be able to afford a spawn.

Not sure what to get rid off atm tho, I am considering either removing one knight from the MoN unit or getting rid of the musicians on knights (since I can't flee from flank charges anyway since they're enraged).

Any thoughts?

Logan_uc
03-01-2010, 01:22
Book of Secrets on the Sorcerer lord isnt a good idea, very bad if you misscast, and at this point value, you need 1 more unit of knignts

Witchblade
03-01-2010, 01:57
The book is fine on your L4 when you have the puppet and the extra versatility on the disc lord is superb. Conjoined homunculus on the other hand is way too risky.

Spawn are too slow for cavalry lists. Don't bother with them. Only Scyla could have worked.

On the whole your list is standard tournament material. It'll do fine.

Points of improvement:

Drop 1 unit of horsemen. You only need so many redirectors and they are relatively costly, but still die in droves. A second unit could be converted to 6-strong with MoK for a cheap glass hammer. Works well in tandem with knights and so many redirectors.

IIRC, triple specials are not allowed in ETC, so a third unit of knights would sadly be illegal.

You could ditch the exalted though and get a dragon, blood curdling roar, stream of corruption (if points allow) and the sword of might for your L4. That would be nasty.

Khemed
06-01-2010, 08:43
Thanks for all the input, especially Witchblade.

About the Conj. Homunculus : it often pays off to test for stupidity when I am about to fail casting gateway on some big nasty who is about to flank charge one of my units. I also find it useful in my 6th magic phase, since I won't test for stupidity anyway.

What you've said about spawns was exactly my concern with them, I was puzzled and got a bit mislead by people suggesting them by default, even for all cav. lists.

When it comes to getting rid of the 3rd horsemen unit the problem still are the leftover points - I don't really see any unit or upgrade that could be a good addition to my list. I was considering dragon ogres, but they seem very situational for an all-comers army.
Converting one unit to MoK on the other hand sounds like a good idea, seeing my 3rd horsemen unit always seems to miss most of the action since I don't have to redirect that much in a most cav. army.

I will also most likely drop the 4th unit of hounds.

I'm tempted with the dragon idea, but I just love the disc model I've made so I'm sticking with it ;)

But I really need some ideas of how to use the leftover points - I will have around 157 pts. if I get rid of marauders (+91), warhounds (+30) and include the spare I got from slimming down horsemen, marauders and getting rid of the illegal banner (+36).

fubukii
06-01-2010, 10:18
add a warsrhine?

Khemed
06-01-2010, 14:21
EDIT: made some changes to the list - removed a unit of warhounds due to ETC restrictions, gave all Horsemen LA, reduced Marauder block to x20, gave Lvl4 Sword of Might, made Exalted a BSB and gave him FotG. 2249pts. total now.



C&C!

captainAurelius
06-01-2010, 16:41
Have you considered swapping the FoTG and Roar for Collar of Khorne? MR and buffed Ward save seems to compliment his commando role better, should give more freedom of movement.

Am maybe being a bit simplistic, but the Knights with Banner of Rage don't need their musician as they won't lose frenzy. The 10pts is perfect to swap a unit of horsemen to the MoK flails build.

I wouldn't get too drastic with points shaving because you'll need a total overhaul for another unit.

Khemed
06-01-2010, 19:31
Have you considered swapping the FoTG and Roar for Collar of Khorne? MR and buffed Ward save seems to compliment his commando role better, should give more freedom of movement.

Am maybe being a bit simplistic, but the Knights with Banner of Rage don't need their musician as they won't lose frenzy. The 10pts is perfect to swap a unit of horsemen to the MoK flails build.

I wouldn't get too drastic with points shaving because you'll need a total overhaul for another unit.

Bloodcurdling Roar is a gift, not an item sadly.
I'd go for MoK horsemen only if one of my Knights weren't frenzied tbh, as I would be quite limited in the movement phase because of the frenzy and also because ETC rules let me take max. 3 units of warhounds, so I can utilize 3 MoS horsemen quite well.

captainAurelius
06-01-2010, 22:24
Ahhh indeed.

Sillyness on my part..:o

I have no criticisms and evidently I have no comments.

Solid list.

LKHERO
07-01-2010, 07:05
What can I say? I really like the list.

Ereinion
13-01-2010, 13:32
A cool looking list. Doing mine at the moment, but going with unmarked knights, 200 points with nothing, but might add command, or parts of. it keeps them alot cheaper, more points for the characters.

Maybe worth looking into. How come your taking 6 knights, often its just 5.

Khemed
20-01-2010, 08:52
Well my opponents know the strenght of my Knights and I'm trying to make sure he'll struggle to redirect both if not only one of them so the units attract a lot of shooting/magic. 6-wide helps me make sure I have at least 5 knights intact on the charge.
About the second unit of Knights - the mark on the MoK ones is swapped often, mostly for MoN or undivided, losing frenzy gives more control. I'm not playing around with MoT+ward banner since as I said fielding them 6-wide makes the unit resillient enough. Also the musician on MoN knights is not actually in use :)
I'd rather not put more pts. in characters - apart from a second dispell scroll there's no point putting even more in them, seeing disc riders are not much of a point denial ;)
A spawn for some spare points can always be made useful - if you have the model ; |

blackjack
20-01-2010, 15:40
Close to perfect list. Drop conjoined, put Roar on your Spell caster who does not want to get into CC in any case.

Khemed
20-01-2010, 17:32
I am indeed yet to see homunculus being of any use (was intended for some critical casts on turn 6, but everyone is in CC by then) and will most likely drop it anyway : |
The roar is on the disc rider for a reason, since I keep my lord out of LoS a lot - only flickering fire (brilliant as it is) requires me to actually see the enemy - I play a lot vs. DE and 2600 pts. O&G with the 2010ETC restrictions applied, meaning I take a lot of small and big shooting from the greenskins. Also depends on which spell I get from the BoS.

The idea itself is good, as my lvl4 actualy used to have the roar on him, but as I said - I've decided to conceal him a bit and spread the points more evenly among my chars. So far the testing looks promising so I'll keep it that way a bit longer.

As mentioned before, when I play friendly games I also tend to drop the mus. and mark on the MoK knights to field a single spawn - it let's me have a bit more fun in the movement phase and it's nice for controlling/harassing the midfield in turn 2-3 if it didn't get shot by then.
Same deal with swapping one flail marauders to a unit of th.axe ones (having both is way too much pts. on them).

Khemed
24-01-2010, 14:18
I'm now planning to try out a slight variation of my list, major thing being changing this unit:
Chaos Knights x6 (325pts.)
MoK, Musician, Standard Bearer, Warbanner
|
| into this:
V
Chaos Knights x6 (305pts.)
MoS, Musician, Standard Bearer, Warbanner

and adding a Chaos Spawn x1 (55pts.)


other changes will include:
- removing Conj. Homunculus from my Lord (-20pts.),

- removing musician from the MoN Knights

- swapping one unit of my LA/Flail Horsemen for:
Marauder Horsemen x5 (91pts.)
MoS, Musician, Th. Axes
leaving me with 2 LA/Flail Horsemen units plus one the one above, no LA.


I mainly wanted to get rid of the frenzy on one of the knight units but didn't want to leave them vulnerable to panic tests, thus gave them MoS.
Spawn will be mostly used to help my marauder infantry get some flank charges and to hold/redirect the enemy.
The th. axes on horsemen were simply due to the fact I already have 2 armoured horsemen with flails and one unit with th.axes, along with the spawn would make the games a bit more interesting.

I'm going to use this alternative fun list for friendly games mostly, keeping in mind that my friends are quite competitive, two of them playing VC and DE ;>

What do you think?

blackjack
24-01-2010, 15:22
You are now officially over thinking this....

Khemed
24-01-2010, 16:32
I study econometry, go figure