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pootleberry
28-12-2009, 20:13
Has anyone had much luck using Skink Skirmishers armed with javelins? Can't decide on whether to run with a small 10 strong unit. With their speed I was thinking of using them to engage units of archers and warmachines.

Anyone used them successfully?

Agnar the Howler
28-12-2009, 20:39
Having run skirmishers with javelins previously, I can say that you're better off with blowpipes. Javelins are 4" less of range, with the same strength, same poisoned attacks, same number of attacks (unless you multi-shot with blowpipes, which you should always do, then it's half the amount of attacks)... all they come with is a shield, which to be honest isn't much a buff considering they're not supposed to be lasting in combat and ranged attacks will take them down regardless.

If you want warmachine and archer harassment, go with terradons, but javelin skinks aren't as good as their blowpipe brethren. You can have those archers down with blowpipes without needing to do much in CC later, if any CC is required.

The only times I can think of where javelins are good is against zombies and skellies, where the increased chance of hitting as opposed to blowpipes (penalty for moving and multi-shotting, whereas javelins get neither penalties) and their armour is negligible (if there is any armour) with auto-wounding from poison not really being necessary.

Alltaken
28-12-2009, 20:47
I'd rather double shoot at archers, on warmachines not a bad idea really, though not terribly good either, consider it if you can't magically dispose the warmachines. they're best at march blocking, can come in handy if you want to rear charge o flank for the extra CR if near the army general

Ramius4
28-12-2009, 21:24
Blowpipes FTW. Nuff said

AngloHellequin
29-12-2009, 09:02
Blowpipes might be statistically better than javelins but in a recent game I had with my Dark Elves my opponent had a unit of both. The skinks with blowpipes seemed to miss most of the time as the movement and over half range meant he needed 6 to hit every time, even when firing once. But his javelin armed skinks (9 of them left at the time) moved through a wood, fired out the other side at my witch elves 7 inches away (so only needed 4) and killed 6 of them!! So they are not useless by any means.

I certainly underestimated them somewhat.

scarvet
29-12-2009, 12:44
Javelin and Shield are good against fast cavalry.
On top of it they can use to chase other Skirmishers.
4+ to hit is as likely to wound as 2 shot poison against T3, and I have 2" after moving and 5+ save in cc to boot.

However, you may as well use those models in Cohort because they are cheap.

Back than when Jaguar Charm is op they are my Scarvet's body guard, too bad.

Ramius4
29-12-2009, 13:02
Blowpipes might be statistically better than javelins but in a recent game I had with my Dark Elves my opponent had a unit of both.

I made the ONLY relevant part of your post bold.

Once again... Nuff said

Agnar the Howler
29-12-2009, 14:26
Blowpipes might be statistically better than javelins but in a recent game I had with my Dark Elves my opponent had a unit of both. The skinks with blowpipes seemed to miss most of the time as the movement and over half range meant he needed 6 to hit every time, even when firing once. But his javelin armed skinks (9 of them left at the time) moved through a wood, fired out the other side at my witch elves 7 inches away (so only needed 4) and killed 6 of them!! So they are not useless by any means.

I certainly underestimated them somewhat.

The good thing about blowpipes, is that moving and multi-shotting (which I hope he did) comes out as needing a 6 to hit... which is also what poison needs. Javelins may be good as they're hitting on 4s, but non-poisoned hits still need to wound, whereas poisoned hits auto-wound. That means 10 Javelins hitting on 4s will hit 5 times, with probably 1 poisoned hit included, leaving 4 hits left to wound, coming out at around 2 wounds. That's 3 armour saves to take with no reduction (str3). Your game is one of the times where, because it's a dice-based game, you got lucky, and somehow he hit and wounded with at least 6 javelins.

With blowpipes, assuming multi-shot and moving and 10 skinks, you have 20 shots. About 4 of those will hit on 6s, but because they're 6s, it means they're poisoned. You have already dealt more damage than javelins without even needing to wound. If you have 2 units of blowpipe skinks, then statisticly that's around 8 wound per shooting phase on every model they fire at (so long as it's not immune to poison etc.), but with Javelins, because they have to wound with most of their hits, it gets harder and harder to score wounds with every increase in toughness.

Azethel
29-12-2009, 15:26
The only place I can see them being useful is against flyers/skirmishers. That is because moving and shooting blow pipes need 7s to hit skirmishers (with double tapping) whilst javelins will still be hitting them on 5s.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-12-2009, 16:14
With blowpipes, assuming multi-shot and moving and 10 skinks, you have 20 shots. About 4 of those will hit on 6s, but because they're 6s, it means they're poisoned.Once you add in the fact that you're also probably more than 6" away, you need 7's to hit, and don't get any poison at all. :cool: Even at 6", against T3 you're only matching the javelin's damage output.

The javelins are superior against basic stuff at 8" range, which is normally exactly where you want your skinks. The blowpipes outperform the javelins in a pretty wide variety of other circumstances - they're particularly good against giants, for example. It's not uncommon to see people take a mix.

Agnar the Howler
29-12-2009, 18:34
against T3 you're only matching the javelin's damage output

4 wounds = 3 wounds?

Even so, 8" range is basically charge range for most units, so no matter what happens, you're going to get charged. It's worth getting to 6" to double tap pipes because, really, you're going to get charged anyway...

Nurgling Chieftain
29-12-2009, 19:42
4 wounds = 3 wounds?You got that miscalculation by taking identical figures (3.33...) and rounding up for your preferred weapon and rounding down for the one you were arguing against.

Javelin: 2/6 hit + 1/6 poison = 1/6 normal wound + 1/6 poison wound = 1/3 average wounds
Blowpipe: 2 x 1/6 poison = 1/3 average wounds

The average is precisely identical in that case (6" range, moving, double-tapping, versus T3).

Agnar the Howler
29-12-2009, 20:11
You got that miscalculation by taking identical figures (3.33...) and rounding up for your preferred weapon and rounding down for the one you were arguing against.

Javelin: 2/6 hit + 1/6 poison = 1/6 normal wound + 1/6 poison wound = 1/3 average wounds
Blowpipe: 2 x 1/6 poison = 1/3 average wounds

The average is precisely identical in that case (6" range, moving, double-tapping, versus T3).

I've forgotten exactly how I did it, but I didn't round up for blowpipes or down for javelins on anything. The fact that i've forgotten probably proves that it was wrong in some way or another anyway.

But if javelins and blowpipes get exactly the same results against T3, wouldn't blowpipes still be better, seeing as they cost 1pt less per model for the same amount of wounds caused?

Nurgling Chieftain
29-12-2009, 22:04
I've forgotten exactly how I did it, but I didn't round up for blowpipes or down for javelins on anything.Your post is on the same page, it doesn't make sense to come in and claim you wrote something different. Here's exactly where you rounded 5/3 down to 1 for javelins:
That means 10 Javelins hitting on 4s will hit 5 times, with probably 1 poisoned hit included...And here's where you rounded 20/6 up to 4 for blowpipes:
With blowpipes, assuming multi-shot and moving and 10 skinks, you have 20 shots. About 4 of those will hit on 6s...You clearly applied a double standard to favor your preferred setup.


But if javelins and blowpipes get exactly the same results against T3, wouldn't blowpipes still be better, seeing as they cost 1pt less per model for the same amount of wounds caused?If that were the only difference, then yes. As is, though, the distinctions and advantages for each setup practically ripple with alternating consequences. I do think the blowpipe is the slightly superior setup (almost exclusively based on that extra points cost, really), but if you're taking more than one unit of skink skirmishers I'd recommend one of them carries javelins.

Agnar the Howler
29-12-2009, 22:51
Your post is on the same page, it doesn't make sense to come in and claim you wrote something different. Here's exactly where you rounded 5/3 down to 1 for javelins:And here's where you rounded 20/6 up to 4 for blowpipes:You clearly applied a double standard to favor your preferred setup.

If that were the only difference, then yes. As is, though, the distinctions and advantages for each setup practically ripple with alternating consequences. I do think the blowpipe is the slightly superior setup (almost exclusively based on that extra points cost, really), but if you're taking more than one unit of skink skirmishers I'd recommend one of them carries javelins.

I never claimed I WROTE anything different, all I did was state (correctly) that I never rounded anything up or down depending on which I preferred. Anything I did was not purposeful and was an error. Any rounding was done completely free of preferrences and if you wish to argue against that, be my guest, but you will never get a confession of it out of me because it isn't true.

ShaggothLord
30-12-2009, 04:54
Blowpipes are always better. With more shots means more damage output, the only time being better being as people said, against units such as Skirmishers, but then Skinks can just shoot once. A 6+ save from shots and 5+ AS is not worth it. They're T2 Skirmishers, you don't expect them to fight off anything anyway.

Jormi_Boced
30-12-2009, 18:42
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the more dice you roll, the closer you will be to the averages. In this regard I would say blow pipes tend to be a little more dependable.

Also, people are talking about getting charged when being with in six inches of a unit to double tap. Your skink are skirmishes, if you are paying attention, you should be able to get them out of your oppoentns charge arcs.

pootleberry
30-12-2009, 19:22
I know people have been discussing the shooting effectiveness of Skinks but the angle I was pondering was their close combat effectiveness. I would never be targetting hardened combat troops with my Skinks but if I were to charge an enemy warmachine (manned by T3 infantry) then the javelin Skinks would be in a better position to knock them out (5+ armour save). If I could knock them out then this small unit of Skinks could roll into an adjacent unit if necessary.

Also, by staying at range 8" the javelin Skinks could march block units, be at their effective range and still provide decent shooting.

But, I might try the ranked up Skinks in this roll first. Much cheaper, still armed with javelin, hand weapon and shields. Slightly less mobile but harder hitting with the extra CR, plus they can also negate enemy ranks should the opportunity present itself.

Am I totally up a gum tree?

someone2040
31-12-2009, 03:10
A mix of both was preferred during 6th edition, when it didn't cost you anything to swap them. Javelins being a small favourite, due to the fact, that if they did get charged, you at least had a 5+ save and could potentially stick around and do a bit of damage.

Now that Javelins and Shield are a 1 point upgrade, many won't bother. May as well use those points for another skink or two.

hfb
31-12-2009, 03:19
Personally, I never rely on Skinks to do any sort of fighting.

Blowpipes are simply spectacular against all armies, merely for the sheer number of poisoned shots they can get off. 10 Skinks can easily take down a giant in one above-average round of shooting, and 2 rounds of average shooting.

Javelin Skinks just don't have the numbers to perform as ranged attackers, and unless you're taking a huge number of Skinks (with supporting Kroxigor), they won't do you too much good in combat either.

I've heard them being used as a fast-moving hammer with a Saurus anvil, but I wouldn't rely on Skinks for winning any sort of combat.

That's my 2c anyhow. I just wish they were better

Blueskies
31-12-2009, 05:43
Blowpipes are always better. With more shots means more damage output, the only time being better being as people said, against units such as Skirmishers, but then Skinks can just shoot once. A 6+ save from shots and 5+ AS is not worth it. They're T2 Skirmishers, you don't expect them to fight off anything anyway.

Even if you just shoot once, if you moved and are long, your at 7s against skirmishers. while you can move and be long and still hit on 5s. The power of the thrown weapon is in that it doesn't have problems with moving and shooting as long as you skirmish around in range.

Blowpipes are only better if your under 6inches after moving, if your in the 6-8 inch range javs are better. if the target is tough or are large, pipes are better, if they are skirmishing or have -anything to shoot at them javs are better. If basic skinks had bs 4 instead of 3 no one would take javs, but sadly the bs3 provides various problems, when shooting at things that already have a penalty. This is why i prefer normal skinks with javs and let the chamelons do the piping.

TheMav80
01-01-2010, 00:07
With the last book I always took a mix. Now I don't take Skirmishing Javs anymore. I still take a small unit of cohorts for screening.

I've actually had success using a block of them with two Kroxigors as well. Works great as a fast flanker.