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Malagant
29-12-2009, 17:14
I've had an old Nightmare Dragon painted up with Tzeentchy colors for a long time now, but have struggled to put together an army that he'll work in.

I know many enjoy using a Sorc Lord on a dragon, and I can see the merits, but at the same time it feels like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole to me: the dragon is at his best when he's in melee, the sorc at his best when he's casting spells at range...the two don't mesh that great to me. Moreover, I've played magic-heavy lists to death, so want to keep magic at a minimum.

So, with many a long hour spent playing with Army Builder, and goofing around in test games, I've come up with something that I think kinda-sorta works for me. I look forward to feedback!


-Chaos Lord with Mark of Tzeentch on Chaos Dragon. Sword of Might, Chaos Runeshield, Collar of Khorne, Favor of the Gods; Word of Agony

-Sorceror of Tzeentch (Lvl 1) with Dispel Scroll and Eye of Tzeentch on Disc

-Sorceror of Tzeentch (Lvl 1) with Dispel Scroll and Enchanted Shield on Disc

-5 Chaos Warhounds

-5 Chaos Warhounds

-5 Marauder Horsemen with Musician, Flails, Throwing Spears

-5 Marauder Horsemen with Musician, Flails, Throwing Spears

-5 Marauder Horsemen with Musician, Flails, Throwing Spears

-6 Chaos Knights with Musician, Standard Bearer, War Banner

-6 Chaos Knights with Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Wrath

-Chaos Chariot with Mark of Slaanesh

-Chaos Chariot with Mark of Slaanesh


Three flyers and all mounted should allow few opportunities for ranged weapons to damage the army. In my testing I've done the worst when I've tried to maneuver the Dragon around for 'perfect' position...he's done best when he's driven right in to the meanest enemy hero he can find. The idea with him is to find the meanest enemy and charge him on turn 2. If there's a champion in the unit, Agony kills the champion. The enemy then has to accept my challenge or enjoy watching the 11 S6 attacks wreck his unit. If he accepts, his magic weapon will be nullified, hopefully he'll die with lots of overkill, and with Favor the Lord just gets beefier.

The Horsemen and Warhounds are trying to redirect the unit(s) that might be trying to flank the dragon while he's engaged with an enemy meanie. They of course flee if/when charged to set up charges for the Slaanesh Love-mobiles that are following behind.

I know the Banner of Wrath is not a popular choice, and I think it is overpriced for what it does, but I think it allows me to have a "real" magic phase with only two level 1 wizards. The PL4 banner should have enough range that it can hit something the enemy doesn't want hit, so should suck up a die, often two. Then each Sorc can throw two dice at Flickering Fire, odds are the enemy has to use three dice to stop the first, so having gone thru 5 dice already he's hard pressed to stop the second flickering fire.

Moreover, the Chaos Sorcs are not completely gimp in a fight, so against an army with war machines they can zip in to take on crew, though one sorc against one crew is dicey...I'd likely have to use two at a time.

The units of Chaos Knights are of course very capable at taking on anything and winning, particularly the War Banner unit. Hopefully with all the havoc caused by the Dragon hitting on turn 2, and the horsemen/dogs fleeing, there will be good opportunities for flank charges to ensure victory.


This is of course not meant to be an incredibly competitive list, but I'd hope that it could put up a bit of a fight against any but the meanest. I think with proper application of the flying units the modest magic defense should prevent anything horrible from happening in the time it takes to eat the enemy magic users.

The Chariots are very strong, and I really like the models, but they're a bit slow compared to the rest of the army. I've been considering embracing slowness by replacing them with war shrines to buff the CK.

Again, feedback appreciated!

GenerationTerrorist
29-12-2009, 19:31
Hi mate. I like the look of the list in general terms. A few minor suggestions I'd like to pose, just to see if you like the small alternatives....

- I feel that you are spot on about the Chariots, seeing as your army is 100% mounted (or Hound!) otherwise. Personally I would drop one of them for sure. This would allow you to boost both your Sorcerers to Level2, just for that bit extra magic output which I think you may need. Then possibly buy another Hound unit with the spare points left over.

- Would you be opposed to making your Lord a Sorcerer Lord? With the same kit, he would still be pretty handy in combat. You could then afford to keep a regular Lvl1 and then swap the other one for an Exalted with a Halberd for some nice S6 attacks.

- If you want to keep both the Lvl1 Sorcerers, I'd recommend dropping the Scroll on the Enchanted Shield one and give him the Infernal Puppet instead - This could potentially screw up any magic-heavy armies you face.

As mentioned earlier in the post, I like the general theme of the list - Not very often that I see Chaos Lord on Dragon lists that make me go "Hmmm, nice!" to myself.

w3rm
29-12-2009, 21:15
I say drop the chariots and get 4 Dragon Ogres. More survivable, faster and put out more damage. Just my 2 cents

Unuhexium
29-12-2009, 22:04
I agree with w3rm. Dragon Ogres would be a better synergy. A warshrine or two might also work though. It could be nice to give your lord a little boost before he goes in to bash some face.

Malagant
30-12-2009, 14:53
Thanks for great feedback guys! I really sincerely appreciate constructive comments!

I've had very little sleep, so I'm going to ramble a bit, forgive me if I become incoherent! :o

@GenTer Thanks for kind words! I've been trying to get a fighty dragon list that sorta works together for a long time now, glad that this list got your attention :)

I'm not sure if there's really enough consistent benefit from raising the sorcs to lvl 2. As of now, they can reliable cast FF with 2 dice with no problem. The enemy knows what I'm going to do, but should be hard pressed to stop it. If I bump them to level 2, I've got 2 extra PD, but little to use them on: Other than then #1 and #6, I think the rest of the Tz lore is mostly rubbish...and they won't be casting Gateway consistently with 3 dice, so even if they do get it, it's a bit of a waste, I think.

Now another idea I had was to drop the discs and make them Nurgle Sorcs...and mount them in the chariots. The Nurgle lore is one of my favorites, and some rotting chariots dripping pestilence would be attractive (by some strange and new definition of the word attractive). US5 chariots are nothing to sneeze at, but I lose 2 deploys, lose a bit of combat oomph from the chariots, which are also somewhat hampered because the Sorcs would have to challenge. More importantly, it loses the two fliers and all the fun happy things they can do for me. Need some Daemon allies for Flying Chariots! :D

I'm really just not feeling the Sorc Lord. I know he'd be effective, others have proven it, but he just feels....meh. If I wanted to go caster, I'd do Tz Tendril DP...I have a great model for him, too....but that's a different army. :)

I'm torn on the puppet. Here's my logic, flawed though it may be: In every battle I've done with these guys (not that many, granted), I've used both scrolls. In only a handful would the puppet have made a difference. Now the difference would have been significant, but it doesn't help in every game like the scrolls do. I suppose I'll test it a few times, see what shakes loose.

Dragon Ogres...I really like their stats. I think they're probably one of the best units in the army book. I also think that they're the ugliest models in the army book. They're abhorrent (and not in a mean gribbly monster way, but in a horrible model way) and WAY out of my price range. I do have some Minotaurs that could 'counts-as' (and fit the 'Warriors of the Steppes' theme...do they have cows in the Steppes? I've never actually been...), but that might not fly in some strict tourney settings. I intend to playtest the DO instead of Chariots, but based on aesthetics I think I'm going to try to make the chariots work.

Had a game last night that went horribly. Played against an old friend and his latest LM incarnation (he's also getting ready for a tournament in his area): OB on Horned One with Hydra, and 5+ Ward; Vet on CO BSB with Burning Blade and Enchanted Shield; 2 EOG (2 scrolls and Tepok amongst them); 2 Stegs; 3 Terradons, 2 Saurus units, and 2 skink skirms. He went first, moving to shoot Giant Bows and Lightning at things, but to no effect. I moved everything zippa-dee-doo-da straight at him, giving him some charges that I though I could hold thru and hit flanks on my turn 2. Alas, when the expected charges came I had a streak of bad luck...a Steg beat some CK by 1, they auto-fled. The Lord & Dragon managed to only do 2 wounds to the Priest in the Challenge, lost combat by 1, and fled. Then in my turn 2 the dragon failed to rally and fled off the board. Game over. :) My opponent was kind enough to give me a mulligan on the dragon rally, we then finished out 6 turns that ended in a draw (though leaning in his favor) where I had the dragon sans Lord, 1/2 a CK, and 1/2 a dog unit left to his EOG with 1w on the priest, 1/2 steg, one saurus unit with bsb, birds and skinks left.

I'm getting a bit more confidence with the list. Two more games planned this week, and a flurry of painting to commence :)

BigbyWolf
30-12-2009, 15:57
Personally I would drop one of them for sure. This would allow you to boost both your Sorcerers to Level2, just for that bit extra magic output which I think you may need. Then possibly buy another Hound unit with the spare points left over.

Exactly what I was thinking, it's pointless having 2 level ones, you just won't get the spells off and a single caddy is cheaper...so drop a chariot and buff your wizzies or go down to one sorc!


Would you be opposed to making your Lord a Sorcerer Lord? With the same kit, he would still be pretty handy in combat. You could then afford to keep a regular Lvl1 and then swap the other one for an Exalted with a Halberd for some nice S6 attacks.

I'm with the OP on this one...a Dragon should be all about the combat, if you're spending the points on one- the Lord is a better option for the rider, as you don't want to be torn between charging in or hanging back to get the spell off.

Malagant
30-12-2009, 17:10
Exactly what I was thinking, it's pointless having 2 level ones, you just won't get the spells off and a single caddy is cheaper...so drop a chariot and buff your wizzies or go down to one sorc!

I very much see your point, but I disagree, and would like to discuss.

First, what can two level 2 Tz Sorcs cast that will be effective vs any enemy that two level 1 Tz Sorcs can't?

I think two level 1s casting FF following the Banner of Wrath have a good chance of getting a spell off. FF is a bit random, but can do significant damage....Seven S7 hits is mighty potent, but the more average four S4 hits is mighty nice too!

I conceptualize that an enemy army will have one of three magic defensive setups: light, a single caddy giving them 2 scrolls and 3dd; medium, having a casty lord or two level 1-2s, give or take: figure 4-5 dd and two scrolls; or heavy to ridiculous: the Tzeentch Daemons or Vampires with 6-8 DD and enough MR and scroll-like goodness to shut down near anything.

I think I can get spells off vs. Light or Medium defense. Against Heavy I'm screwed anyway, so why fight it?

The Banner of Wrath is PL4. To have a better than 50/50 chance to stop it, the opponent needs to use two dice. Target selection will be key with this...I think with 24" range I should be able to hit something that he doesn't want hit.

Each of those lvl 1s casts FF with two dice and +1, for an average roll of 8. This will require the opponent to use 3 dice to stop it (if he wants a reasonbly good chance of doing so, anyway). So with the Banner and the First FF, he's consumed 5dd already. Now he's burning scrolls to stop two dice spells, and can only do that for so long.

Moreover, the flying abilities in the army should allow me to get in to melee with a wizard or two NLT turn 3; if the wizard is mean or in a unit, the dragon can eat it. If he's going solo, the flying sorcs can eat him. If I can knock out a dd or two early in the game the FFs have a lot of opportunity to do significant damage. (Anecdote: That's what happened in my game last night...I was able to knock a priest off an EoG, giving him 4dd vs my 4pd with +1s to cast. I was then able to successfully cast FF two times on almost all of the remaining 4 magic phases, resulting in a wound to a steg and a mighty 7 S7 hits on his Old Blood, vaporizing him.)


I'd love to hear contrary argument!

To sum up my thoughts, I think the Banner and two Level 1s (with their +1 to cast) can get thru light and medium magic defense, and the ability of the overall army allow me to shift the magic defense of the enemy downward relatively quickly.


On a tangent (I'm rambling again...sorry), I think of my magic defense in the same way. I have plenty of magic defense to stop a single caster. Against multiple lvl 2s I can stop the things that really hurt long enough to squelch some of the casting ability. Against the ridiculous magic lists I'm not going to be able to do anything anyway unless I go all out with magic defense, so why try? WoC could easily pack 8-10 dd and 4 scrolls and the tongue and the puppet...and probably do pretty well meta-game with this, but that's a different list altogether.

GWItheUltimate
30-12-2009, 18:41
Which model do you use for you Chaos Lord on Chaos Dragon ?!?

Malagant
31-12-2009, 02:58
Which model do you use for you Chaos Lord on Chaos Dragon ?!?

I'm trying to use the Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50025&prodId=prod1550018).

I'm not much of a sculptor, so sadly the saddle has come out looking like a wad of greenstuff...because that's exactly what it is. The old Dragon model is somewhat smaller-scaled than modern models, so the rider kind of dominates the whole affair, but it's not un-useable.

When I get them painted and assembled I'll get some pics up.

BigbyWolf
31-12-2009, 08:04
I very much see your point, but I disagree, and would like to discuss.

Very well, we discussion shall have! *insert Yoda smiley here*

Well, to begin with, I didn't notice the old Banner of Wrath kicking around- that would certainly help by adding an extra "dice" to the pile.

TBH, it's probably just down to personal preference, as you've already stated you're not a fan of most of the Tzeentch lore, so in that way you don't have use for the extra levels.

At the clubs I go to, I'm one of the few people who rocks a scroll caddy, the majority of the other armies usually end up with 5-6DD, but that's probably down to the popularity of Lizards, Daemons, Skaven and VC nowadays. Heck, even the standard Orc list packs around that amount (If your sensible and take the Spirit Totem). I'm just not happy spending nigh on 300 points for something that might spend most of the game being nullifed.

That being said, your calculations do show that against certain levels of defence you could do some damage (and I'm assuming that you've run that mage setup before, so are speaking from experience), I just prefer to go either magic-heavy or caddy with my WoC.

Actually, as I type I'm thinking that if you really, really like flinging magic missiles at people, you could forget the lord on the dragon and take 4 level 1s on disks, a unit of Tzeentch Chosen with book of secrets and the Banner of Wrath. Add the Rod of Torment (?- no book handy ATM) and that gives you 7 per turn!


Which model do you use for you Chaos Lord on Chaos Dragon ?!?

I'm lucky that I still have Egrimm Van Horstman on Baudros...now there's a Chaos Dragon to be proud of!