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View Full Version : Dwarfs Vs. Skaven - 1,500 Points



Razakel
29-12-2009, 23:47
Hey guys, I'm supposed to be playing a really good Skaven player in a few weeks. The only problem is I haven't played him in over a year and hes been playing Warhammer the whole time which means he'll be even better and I'm going to suck - hard. So I need some advice on what I should take, what I should shoot, what way I should play. Any advice is welcomed.

As far as I can remember he played a very Skryre / Pestilens themed army that regularly included the following:

2x Warlock Engineers; (both always level 2 with good Magic items to compliment the Magic phase)
1x Plague Priest;

2x unit of 40 Clanrats; ALWAYS with Ratling Guns
1x units of 40 Slaves; Screening purposes, of course;
1x big unit (25-35?) of Stormvermin;
He usually alternated between a medium sized unit of Rat Swarms to march block and tie up my ranged OR a small unit of Night Runners;

He was a massive fan of a 25 unit of Plague Bearers with accompanying Censers, he never played a game without them and we played over 100 games against each other.

He sometimes, though not often played with Jezzails.

I was usually able to hold my own in the first few Magic phases but I have no experience against the new Skaven army (having not played a single game against it), so I really need your advice!

An example of the armies I am capable of fielding is here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237246

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
30-12-2009, 00:12
Ok, I play both armies, so lemme try to help. Given the new book, this is IMO what you will likely see.

He'll probably ditch the slightly-nerfed Rattling Guns for a Plague Furnace to put his Priest on.

Against Dwarfs with high Toughness and Armour Saves, you will also likely see Jezzails.
Expect a Hellpit Abomination, too.

Against the new Skaven, I'd say 2 Organ Guns, and aim at his Censers with them until they're dead, because even with T4, those guys can be really brutal.

4 Bolt Throwers, and aim for his Abomination first. If you kill it quickly by some feat of luck, aim for the Furnace. Those, to me, are the nastiest things he has. If you are having trouble killing the A-Bomb, start firing Organ Guns into his Plague Monks to slow it down (after killing off the Censers, of course).

Another option is one Organ Gun, and One Gyrocopter. Use the Copter to bait his frenzied troops for as long as you can, giving you more time to concentrate on his other troops, who are too weak to stand up to you in CC.

He'll have a Storm Banner. Figure out where it is, and snipe it out as fast as possible, or it might manage to render all of your artillary completely useless.

If you want to mess with him a little bit, use the Banner Rune that causes fear (I don't have my Dwarf book in front of me right now, so I can't remember its name).

An anvil may be a good idea too.

Also, go Hand Weapon/Shield on most of your troops, since his S is generally only a 3 on most of his troops (not his Censers or Stormvermin, but they still aren't too scary), and your high armour save may win you the ability for more attack backs that he won't be able to stand up to.

By all means though, do NOT let his A-Bomb or his Censers reach your Iron Breakers if there is any way at all around it. Too much against you when you don't get their armour saves.

Hope some of that is helpful. I don't play a very magic-heavy Skaven list so I'm not too helpful there, but if you go for the Runelord on the Anvil, you should be fine.

Razakel
30-12-2009, 00:23
Hi - thanks for your advice, its greatly appreciated, but you seem to have misread the title. The game will be 1,500 Points. I won't be able to take two Rare choices which immediately prevents me from using 2x Organ Guns or 1x Organ Gun & 1x Gyrocopter. If I had to pick one which would it be?

Yeah the Storm Banner is scary I really hope it fails early on. Are you sure about the Ratling Guns? How bad was the nerf? Unless it was substantial I can't see him abandoning them.

w3rm
30-12-2009, 01:17
I say dont go crazy with shooting. Concentrate on big blocks of infantry and try to castle and do not fall for any baiters. Sit back and blast with a pair of bolt throwers a cannon and an organ gun. A unit of Warriors and Longbeards and a unit of Ironbreakers would be good. Then a runesmith to shut down his magic and a BSB. Just sit back and force him to come to you with your warmachines. Then just beat him in combat and do NOT expose your flanks.

Ramius4
30-12-2009, 01:23
As a Dwarf player I'd advise you to take a Flame Cannon. They're better than an Organ Gun against lightly armored ranked up troops. Especially if you can catch some Skaven outside of the General's Ld range. All you need to cause is 1 wound for the panic test.

The average Organ Gun shot is 6 hits, which is nice, but not for causing panic on large blocks.

Ratling Guns need to roll to hit now in the new book. So yes, they get half the hits that they used to.

The other poster mentioned possibly seeing a Hellpit Abomination, Plague Monk, Plague Furnace, Plague Priest combo. That comes to almost 1000 points on its own. I doubt that you'll see all of that. If you did, you should beat him easy since most of his points would be all in the Plague Monk unit. I doubt your opponent would do that in a 1500 point game if he's any good.

The Bolt Thrower advice is sound though, just in case he sinks 600+ points into a unit with the Plague Furnace. It's tough, but it can also be picked out of its unit and gets no saves.

havoc626
30-12-2009, 01:48
I say with the Bolt Throwers if you are wanting to use it to take out the Abomination is to make it so that they have at least 1 +1S rune and the flaming rune, as that way they will wound on a 2+ against it, ignore its regen and stop it from coming back to life. I wouldn't say to use 4 of them like this, but maybe 2, as it can be a big point investment that takes away from other things you can take.

Razakel
30-12-2009, 02:04
Thanks a lot for the extra advice, I looked up that Plague Furnace thing, good God... I noticed that its T6 and appears to be a Warmachine of some description. Can it be destroyed by high-strength hits? I seriously feel like this thing would sit well with him, and I'm confident he will take one if hes able.

I sincerely doubt a Hellpit Abomination, though it is possible.


Heroes

Thane, Great Weapon, Master Rune of Gromril. 94Points

Thane, Battle Standard, Rune of Stoicism. 115Points

Runesmith, Great Weapon, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking. 149Points

Core

20 Warriors, Shields & Full Command. 205Points

10 Thunderers, Shields, Full Command. 175Points

10 Thunderers, Shields, Full Command. 175Points

Special

2x Bolt Throwers, both with a Rune of Penetrating and one with a Rune of Burning. 145Points

Grudge Thrower, Rune of Accuracy & Rune of Reloading. 115Points

19 Hammerers, Shields, Full Command, Rune of Determination & Rune of Courage. 327Points

Total 1,500 Points

The Hammerers can easily be replaced with Ironbreakers who have an identical cost, do you think this army would stand a good chance against him? Should I drop the full command & shields on my Thunderers, if so, what should I take instead?

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
30-12-2009, 03:56
Haha yeah, I'm a ***** and read it as 2500 pts! That's a huge difference.

As far as what you have, I would definitely exchange the Hammerers for Iron Breakers. S4 wounds Skaven troops on a 3+, and the Armour Save will be more of a significant difference, since you will never be striking first.

Also, I would exchange the Rune Of Stoicism on the BSB for a Rune Of Battle. Its a definite +1 to Combat Res, as opposed to a gamble against a horde army.

I would also exchange the Grudge Thrower for something else while the template still only hits partials on a 4+. As I said before, an Organ Gun or a Gyrocopter would probably do much better against the Skaven, though they are a little point costly. A Flame Cannon is awesome, and I love them, but again, I hate partial hit rule that stands in 7th Ed., and was figuring that an Organ Gun might take out his Censers faster, as they are a high damaging skirmish unit.

The rest of it looks good to me, though. Either way, good luck in your battle! :)

Razakel
30-12-2009, 04:35
Yeah, I prefer Ironbreakers anyway, awesome unit if ever there was one. Rune of Battle sounds good, although I was hoping to at least contest the outnumbering bonus with one of my units.

I find the Grudge Thrower to be invaluable, I used to have notorious accuracy with it, once killing two Necromancers with a perfectly guessed rock. D6 wounds is incredible, and I would never play a game without one. The 4+ on partial sits well with me, I think it would be unfair to hit every model in the unit anyway, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Thanks for all your help and advice, but I'm always open to more!

AtnaShadow
31-12-2009, 13:29
Just a minor point that I'm not sure anyone mentioned yet, and it may not even come up. But as a heads up, if he brings any template weapons, bear in mind that his don't roll for partials. It might not come up at all, and there's not a huge amount you can do to avoid a template weapon more I guess, but figure it's something nice to know going in, as I could see it being a nasty surprise.

grumbaki
31-12-2009, 14:59
It looks good, but the unit of warriors does seem a bit small. You take 1 casualty (or 2 if you have a hero in there) and then you lose a rank.

I was also thinking that when going against skaven, this might actually be a good build...

Master Engineer: Gromril armor with the rune of gromril, great weapon, dwarf handgun (109)
Cannon: Engineer with a brace of pistols, valiant rune, rune of fire (135)

Yes, it comes to a total of 244 points, but think about what it can do.

1) It does d6 wounds, so it can take out a HPA, a plague furnace or a doom wheel in one shot.
2) It causes flaming wounds, so HPAs won't get back up.
3) It is unbreakable and the master engineer has a 1+ armor save. So this means that if an enemy unit hits them, chances are they will be stuck there for the rest of the game.
4) You can also entrench it, so if he takes Jezzails he will be at -3 to hit (long range and heavy cover), meaning that he'll have trouble destroying it
5) It is a magical guess range weapon, so if he takes the storm banner then it won't be effected.

As it is only a 1500 point game, you could replace the bolt throwers with the cannon and the runesmith with the master engineer. This would then leave you with 30 points to play with. This could get you 3 more dwarf warriors, or an oathstone for your general and 1 more warrior. Either of which would help your warrior block stick around longer.


Also the list you have above has 2 bolt throwers. Correct me if I am wrong, but the storm banner will effect them, right? So they will be at -2 to hit along with any other modifiers. That can really dampen your plans.

Razakel
31-12-2009, 15:10
Just to address your point #5, from the new Skaven Army Book, page 111.

"Storm Banner: The Banner can be activated at the beginning of any player's turn. No flying movement is allowed across the entire battlefield and missile fire is at -2 to hit. All non-magical missile attacks that don't use BS to hit their target need to roll a 4+ on a D6 before they can fire.

- Roll a D6 at the beginning of each following player turn - the effects of the banner will end on a D6 roll of 4+."

I believe this means that the Cannon will only be able to fire on a 4+ giving me a 50% chance of failure every turn. Added with the chance of not hitting a target or a misfire, I think I'll take my chances with the Bolt Throwers.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
31-12-2009, 16:14
The runes make the cannon a "magical attack".

grumbaki
31-12-2009, 16:25
Yup, so the cannon can fire every turn. The bolt throwers at long range, shooting at a large target, will need 5's to hit. They'll also stand a larger chance of being destroyed. Then again, there is absolutely no chance that they will blow up or take themselves out of the game through misfires. So of course, the choice is yours.

Razakel
31-12-2009, 16:31
I interpreted that by way of "Magic-Missiles", i.e. spells that do 2D6 S4 hits on a successful cast etc. I suppose you can see how I saw it that way, I still think that might be true. Skaven army book is in dire need of an Errata/FAQ :(.

Brother Edwin
31-12-2009, 22:58
Hey guys, I'm supposed to be playing a really good Skaven player in a few weeks.[/url]

So your coming to face me then?:D

Seriously thow. One thing I can say is put your war machines in between your blocks. What I always try to do with my skaven is kill off the shooting units then avoid the blocks all game. So obviously its very easy if the war machines are out on the flanks.

havoc626
01-01-2010, 08:47
I interpreted that by way of "Magic-Missiles", i.e. spells that do 2D6 S4 hits on a successful cast etc. I suppose you can see how I saw it that way, I still think that might be true. Skaven army book is in dire need of an Errata/FAQ :(.

I see it that way to, and the book does need it clarifying as to what a 'magic-missile' is, whether it is the spell type or if it would also include missile attacks that are magical.

Razakel
01-01-2010, 09:16
I mean, I just don't see why they would say that. It basically caters exclusively to the Dwarf army and it just seems like they were trying to (unsuccessfully) say "Yeah, you can still cast Magic Missiles, the storm doesn't affect those."

AtnaShadow
01-01-2010, 17:59
The vast majority of Skaven shooting counts as magical as well, so it could be to allow things such as the WLC, Doomwheel, PlagueClaw Cat, and so on to still be able to fire normally even when they have the Storm Banner running.

I'm honestly not sure which way to lean with "magical missiles" yet. I love this new Skaven book, but man does it ever need a FAQ.