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Slot
30-12-2009, 16:44
This year i'll be picking up my skaven again. I intend to create a 2000pt competitive army and i'd like a centre piece. Now for Christmas i recieved one of the bell/furnace sets, so that will be getting used. I've only played one game with the new book and i did reasonably, now its time o step it up a gear!

Which of the two is considered best?

Now i know it could depend on what else i use, but this is from your perspective and i'd like to see what people run them with too and what experiences you've had with them!

GuyLeCheval
30-12-2009, 17:08
Bell is the coolest, furnace the best. Choose for yourself.

Johnnyfrej
30-12-2009, 17:21
You can take one Bell as a Lord choice and up to three Furnaces as Hero choices at 2k points. Perhaps you should write some lists before asking a horribly vague question.

Slot
30-12-2009, 17:34
I just want to know, how people use them both and what they use to compliment them army wise, and peoples experiences with them. Is that vague?

Tarian
30-12-2009, 17:46
I use the bell, because I think it's hilarious. More competitively, I'd probably switch it for the Furnace, as it seems stronger. (Not as survivable though, a 4+ Ward is a decent save for such a large target.)

Johnnyfrej
30-12-2009, 17:52
By vague I meant we don't know what type of theme you are going around your army. I trust you read the skaven book, yes? What appeals to you?

Dageo
30-12-2009, 18:09
Both of them have their distinct benefits and disadvantages, and I'd say it is more down to army composition and personal preference as of which one to take. I myself were stuck for a while as to while one to take, and settled for the bell. I do consider the furnace to be the better at inflicting casualties, but I just can't see myself playing a Skaven army without a bell, and it is (and always has been) a lot of fun to use.

The furnace causes D6 impact hits, 6 crew attacks, art dice hits from wrecking ball, and D6 T tests (not to mention the priest's own attacks). It also makes the monks unbreakable, and nearby PCBs stubborn. What it lacks however is any form of protection, other than its respectable T6.

The bell causes D6 impact hits, and 3 attacks from the rat ogre crew. This is considerably less killy than the furnace, but has a 4+ ward save to protect it from the artillery fire it will attract almost magnetically. It also grants the grey seer the best ward save he can get, along with a high up, and 360 degree LoS to assist in casting at those pesky hidden units and flankers. It also grants it's unit unbreakable, but a few of the chart results grant other benefits too. These range from useful, to not so useful, to very circumstantial, but like with all things Skaven, a bit of luck can go a long way, eg, knock out 3 cannons in 1 turn; roll a 13 in a crucial combat; etc.

In 3k+ point games, theres no reason not to take both, and would look fantastic on the battlefield, and when fielded with other large beasties (doomwheel, abom, vermin lord), can help with target saturation, as they can't kill all of them before you reach their lines.

Slot
30-12-2009, 18:14
By vague I meant we don't know what type of theme you are going around your army. I trust you read the skaven book, yes? What appeals to you?

Yeah read the new book through, but there is so much choice now. I'd say that i'm mainly up for a skryre/pestlens army. I like the idea of the plague furnace, plague monks, censor bearers, doomwheel and the other skryre gadgets.

I've not seen any of the new stuff in action (apart from the doomwheel)

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
30-12-2009, 18:38
I haven't used the Bell yet, but I'm a firm believer in the use of the Furnace. I play a mostly CC horde army, so I prefer the active CC destruction that the Furnace causes over the 600 pts to field the Bell.

In my battles with it, I've only had it destroyed once, and that was by 6 Bolt Throwers being targeted at it the whole game.

I generally field it in a unit of 27 Plague Monks (7 wide), with a unit of 10 Plague Censer Bearers close by (giving those crazy little guys all of the extra bonuses, as well). I Frenzy-shield it with a unit of 20 Slaves, so that the scariest thing in my army doesn't wind up chasing fast-cav the whole game.

If you can set it up just right, you can get the Furnace into your enemy's front, and the PCBs into their flank, generally wiping out whatever you're in combat with.

I also like putting the Grand Banner Of Clan Superiority in the Monk unit, so it is less likely on that off-chance you get charged on the flank, you're less likely to lose your Frenzy.

The Priest is pretty vulnerable on top of Furnace, so I always give him the Foul Pendant, and sometimes the Blade Of Nurglitch is fun. I keep him level 1, since he's a CC character for the most part when he's on top of there, and I keep him with the Pestilent Breath spell, because it works in CC as well, and has a small casting cost.

That's about as much Pestilens as I put into an army under 3K, because they tend to be a little bit broken, and I prefer the game be fun. A good combination though is to throw an Abomination in your army too, and make your opponent choose which one he's going to aim his fire at. Either way, try to get your Furnace into combat as fast as possible to avoid it being sniped.

That's all IMO, but I hope it was helpful.

Johnnyfrej
31-12-2009, 15:01
If this means anything, my proposed 2250 Skyre list has a Grey Seer on Bell (will be a lord-warlock, bell will be massively converted with lots of sirens and amps). He and the bell are attached to a unit of 48 Clanrats (7x9) with Shields, full Command and a Ratling Gun (maybe PSM). The unit was going to have an attached Warlock Engineer but since I have the points I may upgrade him to a BSB with the "Doom" Banner (the 75 point one).

Slot
02-01-2010, 22:38
If this means anything, my proposed 2250 Skyre list has a Grey Seer on Bell (will be a lord-warlock, bell will be massively converted with lots of sirens and amps). He and the bell are attached to a unit of 48 Clanrats (7x9) with full Command and a Ratling Gun. The unit was going to have an attached Warlock Engineer but since I have the points I may upgrade him to a BSB with the "Doom" Banner (the 75 point one).

Sounds good!

I think after looking at what the entire army could be (i like themed armies) I may go Pestilens heavy for my 2000pt tourney army.

What do people think to two plague furnaces in a GT army build?

Here is a list with two in that i have made here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4260017#post4260017)

w3rm
02-01-2010, 22:47
One furnace fine. Two little cheesy. Three expect to get them rammed down your throat.

LKHERO
02-01-2010, 23:47
Why not both? They would look really nice on the battle field.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
03-01-2010, 08:51
2 Furnaces in a GT is not only a little on the cheddar side, but all "fairness of an army" aside (as I think without a comp score, you'll probably be facing a lot of OP lists anyway), 2 Furnaces is really tying up a lot of points in stuff that has the possibility of running around the table and doing nothing (if your opponent has a good balance of luck and tactics).

Figure that a good unit to drop it in tends to be 27+ Monks. That's a total of 878 pts for the 2 Furnaces with naked Priests and no command. That a LOT to pack into 2 units for a horde army, especially without an armor save.

Slot
03-01-2010, 14:24
@ w3rm - lol, even i think 3 is too much at this point level

@ LKHERO Points wise, i'd have even less units on the table, the bell is quite expensive to feld on its own!

@ XLast_Of_The_OrderX In the GT, but even with no save, the opponent still has to do something about 2 furnaces, surely most armies would have to really concentrate on them to kill them or reduce their abilities to nothing

Johnnyfrej
03-01-2010, 16:05
Someone at my local store wrote up a three PF list with Lord watsit (the Pestilens character who makes PMs core). The rest of the army was units of PCBs and two Plagueapults.

Slot
03-01-2010, 16:14
Someone at my local store wrote up a three PF list with Lord watsit (the Pestilens character who makes PMs core). The rest of the army was units of PCBs and two Plagueapults.

Wow! How did it do?

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
03-01-2010, 16:51
@ XLast_Of_The_OrderX In the GT, but even with no save, the opponent still has to do something about 2 furnaces, surely most armies would have to really concentrate on them to kill them or reduce their abilities to nothing

6 Bolt Throwers usually does the trick in a few rounds, even with the Storm Banner. If your opponent has some flyers or fast cav, you can be baited around the table until both Furnaces explode in a hail of Bolts.

It does take some concentration of an army's fire-power to accomplish this, but once they're rid of both Furnaces, CC becomes a lot less scary.

shadow hunter
06-01-2010, 10:36
I haven't bought the new set yet, saving for it. Just wondering though (as I have the old, old version) is the bell actually any good?


I will be facing Warriors normally (with no shooting) so the 4+ward makes little difference. And looking at the results of the bell, I dont see anything that makes my beady little eyes glint with glee.

There's a lot that helps when in combat (especially the unit with the bell) but I dont want my greyseer in combat with Warriors (or knights).

I keep thinking it would be better saving the 200pts of the bell, and maybe using it on the 150 furnace and 50pts towards the priest.

Lord Khabal
06-01-2010, 10:49
The furnace dies to shooting really easy. The bell does not. besides, the best unit in the book (censer bearers) uses the same slot as plague monks. This can be minimised by using storm banner, which is godlike vs gunlines and flying circus type armis.

However, the ideal in competitive terms is to use all slots for these, so 2 plague furnaces (using 2 plague monk units) + 2 units of censers is optimal at 2000. Quite frankly, altough the plague lore is "good", its lack of range makes the investment in magic a bit "weak", so I would use the priests as caddys with add. hand weapon + poisoned attacks (giving the furnace 6 attacks also poison!!! :)

also remeber to put the censers behind the monks, so even if the monks are lured into combat and charged in the flank, there is no big problem since the censers charge is so devastating.

so for me, altough i quite like the bell, the furnace is more competitive, unless you want to go magic-heavy, in which case the engineers are quite better than priests. and have access to the doomrocket and warp generator, which does makes quite a difference

shadow hunter
06-01-2010, 11:06
I dont need to worry about shooting (facing warriors) although I may face WE rarely too, but could drop it on those occassions.

I like my Jezzails (against warriors) so would keep those. And only have one unit of monks and 6 censor bearers, so there's no chance of using lots of them.

I've not had much of a problem with the range of plague spells, since I like to get into combat anyway.

I like to take a warlock with condensor and musket and have him near the Jezzails. It really gives me some powerful ranged attacks to whittle him down before he gets to my lines. I don't see that the rocket would be very useful as his units aren't that big. It'd be too easy to miss.

Johnnyfrej
06-01-2010, 19:05
Take this as you will, but my first game with the Screaming Bell had it roll triple sixes turn two...

SimonL
07-01-2010, 02:53
How perfectly Skaven lol. I always roll the three dice, it's much more in character...

Amornar
07-01-2010, 06:48
Skaven are pretty much go big or go home.....errr actually they are more like go big or go boom :)

bert n ernie
09-01-2010, 11:01
I've had the same thing happen in my second game with skaven. On the other hand, I've used the bell a few times now, and the results are... fair.
I think that the furnace, like everyone has said, does need to get in quickly, and it is specifically for combat. If you choose to just concentrate on combat then it's a great way to go.

If you want a standoff-ish army then I think the bell is the way to go. Some of the rolls on it are ranged, but I wouldn't rely on them. The 360 line of sight for the seer gives a cautios general a lot of flexibility for one unit. It is the one unit in your army that the opponent will want to take out as soon as possible, and he'll find it hard to do that due to it never having to test for panic. Even in combat it is going to survive a flank charge, something the furnace can not do. I have managed a flank charge on another skaven player's furnace and it lost him the game, as the furnace couldn't get in to the combat all game. The bell should enter combat at some point, but it's tricky to know when it should do this. I still am not sure which units it can charge and which it must avoid, but it has to be much more selective, and it also can depend heavily on the spells the seer has rolled what you wish to do. Even going for one lore over the other can have a big effect on how you use the bell, and that's great, but it's also a problem for people with a non-flexible style of play.

I would still have to try the bell in a few more games to decide whether it's worth taking or whether I'm better off just putting the grey seer in a large clanrat unit. Has anyone tried the seer without? Any particular effects?

AtmaTheWanderer
09-01-2010, 16:49
The unit was going to have an attached Warlock Engineer but since I have the points I may upgrade him to a BSB with the "Doom" Banner (the 75 point one).

Please be aware that at the moment it is "rules ambiguous" if you can do this or not. Currently, RAW interpretations on this one go both ways. The presence of the Screaming Bell makes the unit Unbreakable, and non-Unbreakable characters cannot join Unbreakable units. Where the ambiguity comes in is in deployment, where one can argue that you place the other character first, but since they are all placed as one it can be argued equally fiercly that the deployment is simultaneous, thus as you're trying to place both together the unit is already rendered unbreakable by the presence of the bell.

Just one of the dozen things in the Skaven book that desperately needs errata/faq clarification we'll probably never get.

Forgive me if they finally made a ruling on this one that I was unaware of, BTW.

bert n ernie
09-01-2010, 17:16
That's interesting. I guess I'll have to be careful not to deploy other characters to my Seer unit. Pity about that, as I like to keep my BSB with Under Empire banner nearby in case I need to skitterleap him.

lordsigmund
10-01-2010, 22:26
I'm going with the furnace for my new 1500 army, pestilens themed and I love the model :)

Prince Sairion
11-01-2010, 20:17
My first reaction when opening and reading the rats book was furnace ftw.

The drawback is frenzy. Cue harpies, skinks, empire archers, hounds, bret archers, eagles, woods, cheap rat packs, fast cav, bats etc landing infront at an obscure angle, luring it in, fleeing, flank charge from hammer unit. And that's where it stays, doing nothing.

Furnace is wonderful against anyone who doesn't know how to play the game and you get a frontal charge off, otherwise I'd have to go for the bell.

fubukii
11-01-2010, 20:33
im gonna with the furnace its better then the bell especially if you guard your flanks with stubborn units such as HPA or PCB.

Most of the bell results are iffy, but theres a couple of decent ones.

Jezzer
11-01-2010, 22:23
i will be assembling skaven army soon, and i can't really decide wheter to use the furnace or not. I'm actually scared as the furnace does not have any kind of save, neiter gives any kind of save to the priest. screening it from fire seems impossible since it's a large target. Only thing that can guard it from range weapons is stormbanner and, which also seems reliable Shadow Magnet Trinket. and how do you guys manage to get the furnace into battle? with priest alive, i mean

Slot
11-01-2010, 22:26
i will be assembling skaven army soon, and i can't really decide wheter to use the furnace or not. I'm actually scared as the furnace does not have any kind of save, neiter gives any kind of save to the priest. screening it from fire seems impossible since it's a large target. Only thing that can guard it from range weapons is stormbanner and, which also seems reliable Shadow Magnet Trinket. and how do you guys manage to get the furnace into battle? with priest alive, i mean

Take two of em ;)

with an abonination and a doomwheel too, your opponent has a lot to worry about, and i doubt many will have enough to bait all of that

outbreak
11-01-2010, 23:43
I haven't run the furnace yet but the bell is pretty good imo. The furance seems to pack more punch but as everyone has stated it seems alittle too flimsy (plus from experience play against other frenzied armies it would be very easy to kite around). I think i'm leaning towards using the bell more often just because it's more reliable and will go where i want it. It is also useful just for the shooting platform it gives my grey seers spells and with flanking units it will still destroy most enemy units on the charge (if they can break). I've run my seer on foot afew times aswell and the reason i prefer him with a bell is the protection and the fact his unit can become more then just a bunker for him to cast from.

Sygerrik
12-01-2010, 00:46
I use two Furnaces and 33 monks per unit. The reason I go with such an odd number is that with the Furnace in there, it is 6 x 8, which is about as big as a unit can get before it starts to get incredibly unwieldy. The Furnace can throw out a maximum of 34 attacks by itself. Granted, this involves rolling two 6s and a 10, but it's still likely to average around 24, between toughness tests, crew and priest attacks, impact hits, and the wrecker attack, but that's still a lot. I use large units of plague monks as an "anvil" unit for my Censers and Doomwheel to hammer onto.

As for protecting it-- T6 and 6 wounds go a really long way towards that. It's DEFINITELY down to who you're facing. Against Empire or Dwarves, the cannons will eat it alive, but against armies without lots of war machines, it's likely that they'll have a lot of trouble killing it. T6 can absorb an awful lot of S3/S4 shooting.

The Furnace is incredibly useful for the Unbreakable/MR ability alone. It also discourages flank charges, since the enemy is not going to break the unit in combat anyways and won't be able to attack and kill the furnace to MAKE the unit breakable.

Przemcio251
12-01-2010, 06:30
Ok what happens if a character attacks the Furnace and has a killing blow special rule??? If he rolls a 6 to wound the Furnace is dead???;)

Jezzer
12-01-2010, 12:13
KB only works on US1 and US2 models

ExxonValdez
12-01-2010, 16:04
I run a bell phalanx. Its very survivable and gives your Grey Seer a 4 plus ward plus magic resistance 2 for itself and the unit pushing it. They are also unbreakable. It also gives the Grey Seer the ability to cast in a 360 degree LOS and see over other units as its on a large target monstrous mount. The bells abilities aren't game breaking and you suffer casualties half the time but it turns a unit of clanrats into a tarpit. The rest of my army picks off the units that can harm the bell. By the time its in combat the opponent is wasting attacks on the bell maybe putting 1 or 2 wounds on it max while the bell and clanrats attack them. 38 rats pushing the bell and a BSB with the Warbanner means my
static combat res is 7. Its not a Death Star its a point denying centre peice. Its not all that powerful but it sticks around denying my opponent about 800 points (Greyseer,bell,clanrats unit and BSB) Supporting it are a doom flayer, 2 units of 5 rat swarms, doom wheel, 8 jezzails, 2 units of 25 slaves, 2 warlocks, 3 rat ogres with a master moulder, 11 globadiers and a warplightning cannon. with the exception of the doom wheel and the cannon the whole of my army moves as one phalanx in a defensive position. I don't shoot units to the last man I whittle them down to a rank or 2 or in the case of knights 2-3 max so when they hit my bell or slaves they get wiped out due to death or combat res. I've played 5 games, 4 wins and 1 tie against ogre kingdoms. I'm really liking the way this army plays. As for the furnace, it can deal out more damage but it looks kinda mimsy.

fubukii
12-01-2010, 16:26
My question is while the bell looks like point denial its really not. The grey seer is quite killable in combat even with his 4+ ward, and skaven bsbs are ultra fraile.

Meaning i could charge a unit in and just kill the bsb and probably the seer, without taking much damage back, plus then the grey seer can not skitter leap which is useful for keeping him alive and out of harm. Once he is on a bell you know where he will be the whole game..

The plague furnace still makes the unit unbreakable and have mr2 but it contributes alot more to the combatwith toughness tests, and art dice str 5 hits, plus the priest is pretty mean. In addition to its shooting attack which is also VERY nice. ALso you know those PCB every one takes at least 2 units of in their army, yea if they near the plague furnace they gain stubborn LD8(depending on the monks rank bonus) Skirmishing hammer units with stubborn are just AMAZING period.

THe Bell is better at living i will admit but its results almost never do anything worth wild, and your grey seer is a sitting duck up there. Granted clanrats are cheap, and it makes a unit of them unbreakable which is nice, but i think the furnace takes the cake due to its usefulness. Although a bell could probably be good in a dual abomination list just as a tarpit, but the monk block would probably fill the same role but act as a hammer too..

Jezzer
12-01-2010, 16:27
just to say, the rules say exactly that the grey seer "can draw the line of sight over the heads of the unit pushing the screaming bell". so what are the rules? does he see over other troops or not?

fubukii
12-01-2010, 16:32
he is a large target so id say so :)

Bladelord
12-01-2010, 16:53
I like the sound of your phalanx ExxonValdez:)

ExxonValdez
12-01-2010, 22:10
I accept and declare challenges with the seer. I give him the Rival Hide Talisman, skalm, tail weapon and a rat hound bodyguard. 3 attacks. he also has the 3 attacks from his rat ogre as the bell is a mount. He has yet to die. When Death Frenzy is cast on the unit him and the ogre each have 5 attacks.
Against some characters I would not accept but its the job of the rest of my army to prioritize targets and allow the weak units to charge. Skalm helps, my seer and everything in that unit is its own tarpit as long as the bell survives.

fubukii
12-01-2010, 23:47
as far as i know the rat ogre is crew can can not fight in the challenge. I could be mistaken though. In addition what if you arent fighting any characters? then your seer is out there by himself.

Tauren
13-01-2010, 19:13
Pretty sure its the same as a chariot, the entire model is part of the challenge.

fubukii
14-01-2010, 02:46
chariot crew members do not fight in a challenge, which is exactly my point tauren. So the rat ogre would not fight. Its in the rule book :)

although they cant be attacked either