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Malagant
30-12-2009, 17:26
I'm hoping to hear some input from others on how you think the Chaos Dragon's multiple breath weapons should be resolved.

Specifically, are the hits from the second breath determined after the models are removed from the results of the first breath. Resolving them one at a time could results in fewer potential hits from the second breath.

I've encounted people that resolve this differently:

Some (myself included) believe that the two breath weapons are "fired" simultaneously. This is, IMO, RAW: the rules for firing a ranged weapon say that I nominate a firing unit and a target unit. I then check range, and roll to-hit. Once the number of hits is known, the rolls to wound are done. Then Armour Saves. Then models are removed. This would indicate to me that my Dragon, as the firing unit, would use his flame template to determine the number of models hit, roll to-hit partials for the first breath weapon, then roll to hit partials for the second. When the Hits are determined, the wounds are rolled for. The enemy then makes his saves and all the models are removed at once.

Others I've encounted believe that the two ranged attacks should be resolved independently: i.e. one head breathes, rolls to-hit, to-wound, saves, and models removed; then the process is repeated for the second head.

I believe the first follows RAW, as all hits and wounds from the firing unit are resolved together. I believe the second is an application of the LM Salamander rule applied to the Chaos Dragon.

Anxious to hear other's thoughts! :)

stripsteak
30-12-2009, 17:57
Some (myself included) believe that the two breath weapons are "fired" simultaneously. This is, IMO, RAW: the rules for firing a ranged weapon say that I nominate a firing unit and a target unit. I then check range, and roll to-hit. Once the number of hits is known, the rolls to wound are done. Then Armour Saves. Then models are removed. This would indicate to me that my Dragon, as the firing unit, would use his flame template to determine the number of models hit, roll to-hit partials for the first breath weapon, then roll to hit partials for the second. When the Hits are determined, the wounds are rolled for. The enemy then makes his saves and all the models are removed at once.

This is how i would play it with the following change. the templates don't determine number of hits to the unit, but which specific models are affected.

lay down template 1. note which models are fully covered. roll for partials noting which specific models fail their partials.
lay down template 2. note which models are hit as for template 1. this might mean some models are hit by both templates
roll all required saves for each model. if a model is hit by both templates roll for the first, if he passes roll for the second.

in general since you are only resolving one template at a time it's not really worth the time to note specific models hit vs number of hit since the end result will be the same. however in this case since we are resolving two breaths simultaneously, and breath weapons effect specific models not units as a whole.

Malagant
30-12-2009, 18:02
if a model is hit by both templates roll for the first, if he passes roll for the second.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying you think a model affected by one breath template could not then be hit by the second?

Good point about specific models...adding LOS! rolls in there makes things just a tad more cumbersome, but certainly do-able.

theunwantedbeing
30-12-2009, 18:06
Resolve one at once, much easier to deal with.

That and you resolve one at once with units of salamanders, no real reason not to keep the practice for things like chaos dragons.

Sure you risk not hitting as many models with the second template, so?
Same sort of thing happens when your character with a great weapon fights last, he risks not having anyone in base contact to fight.

stripsteak
30-12-2009, 18:17
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying you think a model affected by one breath template could not then be hit by the second?

no i'm saying he can be hit by both but a model hit by both weapons is two hits on that model, not two hits on the unit. if he fails either one the model is removed. but if he fails both it wouldn't remove two models. breath weapons do not hit units they hit models. it's similar to allocating attacks in cc. if you direct 4 attacks at a single model those hits can only affect that model and don't spill over.

*edit*
resolving them at the same time is much more bookkeeping. agreeing with unwanted, it is easier to just do them one after the other. and unless you roll really well for one it's not going to change your results too much. i haven't played against a chaos dragon yet. if it was mine i would probably play them one at a time (if my opponent is ok with that) just to keep the game going quicker. i'd let my opponent play whichever way he wanted.


big example cause i'm bored :)




initial layout
eeeee
dddd eeeee
dddd eeeee
eeeee
eeeee

Simultaneously
template 1 (1-hit, p- partial)
partials after partials
epp1p ee11e
ddddtt1111p dddd 11111
dddd eeppe dddd ee1ee
eeeee eeeee
eeeee eeeee

template 2 (2-hit, p- partial)
partials after partials
eeeee eeeee
dddd eeppe dddd ee22e
ddddtt2222p dddd 2222e
epp2p ee22e
eeeee eeeee

final hits(1 template 1, 2 template 2, 3 both templates)
ee11e
dddd 11331
dddd 2232e
ee22e
eeeee

so after this the most models you could remove would be 13. 3 models would have to save against both template 1 and tempalte 2 to survive.


one at a time using same distributions
State after Template 1 (assuming 50% loss cause why not), 8 hits 4 losses
eeee
dddd eeee
dddd eeeee
eeee
eeee

template 2
partials after partials
eeee eeee
dddd eepp dddd ee22
ddddtt2222p dddd 2222e
epp2 ee22
eeee eeee

you would affect a total of 16 models. if you rolled better on the first template you would affect less. if you rolled worse you would affect more.