PDA

View Full Version : Handling the Hellpit Abomination



Stinkfoot
01-01-2010, 20:19
Hey there fellas. I've played a few games against the new Skaven with my Vampire Counts now and things seemed pretty fair and balanced. Recently however I played against the new Skaven book with my Wood Elves and gained a whole new appreciation for how hard they are. In particular, I'm really not sure how to handle a Hellpit Abomination without a) an unbreakable tarpit that has basically unlimited numbers (aka what I did when I was vampire counts) or b) lots of artillery. I was hoping I could glean something from the collective wisdom and experience of Warseer. Is there a c) when it comes to handling the A-bomb?

I suppose this applies to any army that isn't undead or artillery heavy - what have you guys found effective at bringing the Hellpit Abomination down, or at least containing it's damage?

snottlebocket
01-01-2010, 21:39
Is it too much for a treeman to handle? Also I can't recall if wood elf mages are allowed regular lores, but the lore of fire is pretty decent against skaven and probably more than decent against the abomination.

Other than that, don't wood elves have the mother of all tarpits in the sense that they can shove forests in the damn thing's path.

Lord Inquisitor
01-01-2010, 21:49
With Wood Elves? Stay the hell away from it or bait it away from your main lines. It only moves an average of 9.5" a turn, particularly if it isn't right in the middle of his lines, just keep away from it. Or you can throw a flying unit to tempt it into moving away from your lines.

Unless you have access to high strength flaming attacks, if you really need to take it down then massed bowfire is probably the way to go. You can wound it with S3. With regenerate, each hit has a 1/12 chance of wounding. Sufficient bowfire will take it down.

Don't go near it with a Treeman, this thing can eat greater daemons for breakfast (well, those that don't tote Firestorm blades, anyway).

theunwantedbeing
01-01-2010, 21:51
You shoot it, 40 glade guard at short range will drop it in a single volley on average.

Simple.
It's not in the least bit worrying for a WE player :P

And before you go saying,
"oh but 40 glade guard is more than twice the points of an abomination"
I'de like to point out that you'll have 5 other turns of shooting something else to make up the remaining 245pts needed to "break even".

So you can potentially gun down 6 of them in a single game.
Which means you score yourself 930pts more than you spent to get that.

So no whinging about the cost of the thing.

snottlebocket
01-01-2010, 21:52
Don't go near it with a Treeman, this thing can eat greater daemons for breakfast (well, those that don't tote Firestorm blades, anyway).

Jeez, what does this thing do? I assumed it was a varghulf / hydra ish monster but it must be a whole lot nastier if it can eat greater demons.

Lord Inquisitor
01-01-2010, 22:03
Its got a randomly selected attack, but it can either inflict an automatic S6 hit on all models in combat with no saves allowed, 3D6 S6 attacks with an additional -1 to return attacks or an initative test to avoid a wound plus 2D6 automatic S6 hits. All are amazing in certain circumstances and if you get the right attack the HPA can murder just about anything. Then again, it can wiff pretty badly too if you get the wrong attack mode for the job, but I've not seen it happen yet...

Kayosiv
01-01-2010, 22:18
I don't think the hellpit is capable of wiffing, every single option for it's attacks is borderline broken.

It has killed EVERYTHING I have ever seen in combat with it that did not kill it in 1 round, and I have seen it in over 5 combats since the new Skaven book came out. This includes things like Hydras, Sauru Oldblood, Stegadons, Dark elf Lord on Manticore, and various "hard" units such as always striking first Executioners and Sauru with spears.

Now that doesn't make it invincible, I have seen it charged by powerful things and killed (such as a unit of 4 dragon ogres with champ and great weapons) but for the most part, just shoot it. Direct all your fire at it until it dies. If you need to try and kill it, charge it with ONE UNIT at a time to try and kill it. Multiple units attacking it generally do not help.

Poison and flaming hits are good against it because it has no armor and to negate it's regeneration specifically, but neither are needed.

Foegnasher
01-01-2010, 23:16
mine has eaten lots of things, but was killed by chaos chosen, and defeated and ran off by a bret lance with a bsb ( i charged) and eaten by a khrone demon herald on a juggernaut.

so it's not invinceable. flameing stuff, artillary will whomp it good.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
02-01-2010, 02:13
Even if you had to fire your entire army at the A-Bomb for one turn just to make sure it was dead, it'd be worth it purely based on the amount of your army that it can eat on its own. Wood Elves have low Toughness and no armor, and a good portion of the Hell Pit's attacks negate their minuses to hit. Kill it as fast as you can, and pray to Orion that he doesn't roll that 6 to come back to life.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
02-01-2010, 03:22
With Wood Elves...The Same way you handle a regular giant: Hail of Doom, weaken it with strength 4 shooting when it gets within 15", and when it's down to one or two wound run in with somethime strength 5+ on the charge (treekin, wildriders, alter, etc) and hope for the best.

Blueskies
02-01-2010, 03:38
well 40 shooting at long, 3's to hit, 6's to wound and 4+ regen netw you a 2.22 avg wounds, so assuming all 40 are in range of course which can be difficult if it's fielded on a far flank. at close your hitting on 2's wounding on 5's witha 4+ regen to get through so thats not too harsh even 20 archers would net 2.77 wounds. Treekin and treemen have a fighting chance, otherwise just try and get a forest in front of it, it can only move in a straight line so if you move your forest in it's arcs it has to go off in a tangent and if he walks into the forest, whack the crap out of it with treesinging the next turn.

Taishar
02-01-2010, 04:58
Yeah, it's a pretty good shooting target. It's basically a varghulf with 2 extra wounds and large target shooting wise.

Feed is the "worst" HPA result. It does an automatic S6 hit to everyone in B2B with no AS and D3 wounds. The others do 3D6 attacks and 2D6 hits (plus some misc junk). Coupled with stubborn on an 8, your best hope is to kill it before it can attack (at I4 for some reason)


Cheers

Razakel
02-01-2010, 05:55
Its a bloody nightmare to kill, if your fighting a lucky opponent who scores the "Its Alive!" result more often than not, you will learn the value of flaming attacks. I don't know if Wood Elves have any, if they do, you will need them against this monstrosity. It absolutely must never reach close combat.

Stinkfoot
02-01-2010, 07:38
Yeah, it ate my Treeman for breakfast. I wounded it once and it killed me in two rounds - it hits ridiculously hard for it's cost and it shrugged off my attacks back.

Archers can probably do it, but then to have a chance at beating an A-Bomb I need to take basically a gunline. Even then, the Stormbanner messes me up pretty badly. I was hoping for a combination that would beat/neutralize it in combat, but it sounds like that doesn't exist. As it was, only the treeman lasted for even one round with the thing, and it sounds like that's typical.

By the way, the average move of the thing is 10.5" a turn. That's not THAT great, but when you factor in the fact that it can't be march-blocked and can move in any direction I find that it gets around surprisingly quickly.

skank
02-01-2010, 10:03
I moves by pivoting first then going straight ahead, if you can stop it pivoting by putting a unit in it's flank (right up against it/out of LOS) you can really dictate it's movement. An eagle should do nicely.

Then shoot it.

fubukii
02-01-2010, 13:05
whittle it down with Glade guard and hail of doom arrow, then mop it up with one of your fHeavy hitting units (treekin do nicely in a pinch u can use dryads or wardancers but id really suggest str5+). Should do the trick every time. Just hope it doesnt come back to life

If that fails keep putting woods in front of it it can only move in straight lines which is a problem for it.

Lord Inquisitor
02-01-2010, 15:51
I moves by pivoting first then going straight ahead, if you can stop it pivoting by putting a unit in it's flank (right up against it/out of LOS) you can really dictate it's movement. An eagle should do nicely.
That's pretty cheesy and I'm not at all sure that would work, I don't see why it can't contact your unit with the pivot and count as charging then. Even if you're correct, you can't come within 1" which isn't going to prevent the pivot that much.

Poseidal
02-01-2010, 16:07
Archers can probably do it, but then to have a chance at beating an A-Bomb I need to take basically a gunline. Even then, the Stormbanner messes me up pretty badly. I was hoping for a combination that would beat/neutralize it in combat, but it sounds like that doesn't exist. As it was, only the treeman lasted for even one round with the thing, and it sounds like that's typical.
Stormbanner will mess up shooting, especially if he's savvy and can guess when the HoDA is coming in. I don't think any combat unit will stand to it; even if they win, it's stubborn Ld8.


By the way, the average move of the thing is 10.5" a turn. That's not THAT great, but when you factor in the fact that it can't be march-blocked and can move in any direction I find that it gets around surprisingly quickly.
The biggest thing is the 360 degree movement as well, meaning you can't really outmanoeuvre it with fast movers/skirmishers.

It basically puts a 21" diameter no go zone for your ItP units (who can't flee) as none of them will be able to take a charge from it.

It might be worth trying to treesing some woods around it, hope it rolls into one of it then treesing (damage) it repeatedly next turn, though I suspect most Skaven lists will have adequate magic defence (as they have excellent casters), and WE magic isn't exactly a powerhouse.

PeG
02-01-2010, 16:14
WE dont really have a good answer to it. Treat it as a greater daemon ie avoid it or shoot it. Also throw woods at it to limit its movement. If you can get it into a wood your magic might actually be able to do something. Something that WE needs when we get a new book in the far away future is something to deal with high T targets.

fubukii
02-01-2010, 16:45
WE dont really have a good answer to it. Treat it as a greater daemon ie avoid it or shoot it. Also throw woods at it to limit its movement. If you can get it into a wood your magic might actually be able to do something. Something that WE needs when we get a new book in the far away future is something to deal with high T targets.


I dont see how there isnt a answer, Hail of doom arrow does well, so does 10-20 archers a turn. By the time it gets to you it should either be close to dead,dead or wounded enough to finish off with some Combat units. Just hope it doesnt come back to life.

Foegnasher
02-01-2010, 17:33
well, any army i have an HPA in is going to have the strombanner in. because he can get into combat in two, maybe three turns. which is just about as long as that banner will last, if you are lucky. once he's into your lines, he is gonna wreck stuff.

fubukii
02-01-2010, 18:11
thats true that the stormbanner will help the HPA out a bit but even then he is still a large target, and with wood elves not having movement penalties they should hit well enough.

As for the HPA you would need some luck to get there by round 2, on average id say turn 3 charge. Turn 4 at worst.

skank
02-01-2010, 18:46
That's pretty cheesy and I'm not at all sure that would work, I don't see why it can't contact your unit with the pivot and count as charging then. Even if you're correct, you can't come within 1" which isn't going to prevent the pivot that much.

Yeah, my cheesy ogres should just take the thing in a frontal assualt, right? (i have no magic and little shooting)
Since when has it been cheesy to gain advantage by manouvering:wtf:?
That like saying its cheesy to marchblock...

You can't go within 1" of him but nor can he go within 1" of you, HPA can't do squat but go forward (you don't charge by pivoting into things).

LKHERO
02-01-2010, 18:48
The HPA cares not about your marchblock.. but you can always misdirect it with something smaller and has a easily divertable base (think Eagles). Then just flank it with multiple units.

I don't find shooting as effective as I want it to be because of the Storm Banner.

Lord Inquisitor
02-01-2010, 19:18
Yeah, my cheesy ogres should just take the thing in a frontal assualt, right? (i have no magic and little shooting)
Since when has it been cheesy to gain advantage by manouvering:wtf:?
That like saying its cheesy to marchblock...
There's a difference between maneuvering or marchblocking and exploiting a loophole in the rules. The HPA is clearly intended to be able to charge 360-degrees (one of the few things that's abundantly clear in the Skaven book! :o) and saying that it can't because you're too close seems absurd. Not only that, but as I said, it isn't clear to me that your little trick even works - the HPA is implicitly allowed to come within 1" of an enemy model when moving (otherwise it could never charge!) and I don't see that pivoting should be an exception. So it pivots into contact with your eagle and then a move of 0" is sufficent to bring it into contact with an enemy unit therefore it counts as charging.

Just because the HPA is blatantly unbalanced doesn't mean that one is justified in bending the rules to deal with it.

Razakel
02-01-2010, 19:28
I'm still aghast that the thing isn't Unbreakable, or at the least, Immune to Psychology.

skank
02-01-2010, 19:49
There's a difference between maneuvering or marchblocking and exploiting a loophole in the rules. The HPA is clearly intended to be able to charge 360-degrees (one of the few things that's abundantly clear in the Skaven book! :o) and saying that it can't because you're too close seems absurd. Not only that, but as I said, it isn't clear to me that your little trick even works - the HPA is implicitly allowed to come within 1" of an enemy model when moving (otherwise it could never charge!) and I don't see that pivoting should be an exception. So it pivots into contact with your eagle and then a move of 0" is sufficent to bring it into contact with an enemy unit therefore it counts as charging.

Just because the HPA is blatantly unbalanced doesn't mean that one is justified in bending the rules to deal with it.

Ok, wheres the rules bending? It's actually very clear how the HPA moves (ie, it pivots then moves straight ahead 3d6), it essentially has a 360 movement but only if it can pivot initially. If you can inhibit it's pivot you can inhibit it's movement.
No unit is allowed within 1" of an enemy unit unless it charges, HPA is no exception. Seems to me a pivot/charge is a rule bend...

Would you have a problem with me putting an eagle in the flank of a regular unit stopping it wheeling?

Witchblade
02-01-2010, 20:05
There's a difference between maneuvering or marchblocking and exploiting a loophole in the rules. The HPA is clearly intended to be able to charge 360-degrees (one of the few things that's abundantly clear in the Skaven book! :o) and saying that it can't because you're too close seems absurd. Not only that, but as I said, it isn't clear to me that your little trick even works - the HPA is implicitly allowed to come within 1" of an enemy model when moving (otherwise it could never charge!) and I don't see that pivoting should be an exception. So it pivots into contact with your eagle and then a move of 0" is sufficent to bring it into contact with an enemy unit therefore it counts as charging.

Just because the HPA is blatantly unbalanced doesn't mean that one is justified in bending the rules to deal with it.
It's actually a rather common tactic and it's 100% RAW. I'd also call it tactical.

Fluffwise, think of it as the eagle harassing the abom or something.

Stinkfoot
02-01-2010, 20:10
I don't have the Skaven book handy, so perhaps somebody who does can help here - what does it say, exactly, about how a Abomination charges? If it just has to move into the enemy, and by pivoting it can move into the enemy, then I would say it can pivot into the enemy and count as charging.

Razakel
02-01-2010, 20:20
Hell Pit Abomination:

Shambling Horror: A Hell Pit Abomination is moved in the owning player's Compulsory movement, moving 3D6 each turn. First, pivot the Hell Pit Abomination to face the direction in which you wish it to travel and then roll 3D6; this is how many inches directly forward the creature will move. If a triple is rolled, do not move the Hell Pit Abomination; instead roll immediately on the Berserk Abomination chart.

If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging. The target may make a charge reaction as norma, counting the movement value rolled as the Abominations maximum charge distance (for purposes of fleeing, standing and shooting and so on). If the move is blocked by impassable terrain the Hell Pit Abomination will stop 1" away from it. If the Hell Pit Abomination's move takes it into a friendly unit the creature will immediately cause D6 Impact Hits to the unit in its way, before withdrawing 1" back and ending its movement.

There you go.

Agnar the Howler
02-01-2010, 22:10
Kidnap an Empire's Bright Wizard by having your archers flash their breasts?

I don't know really, I think just shooting it till it dies is the best option avaliable, even with stormbanner interferrence. There just isn't much else you can do apart from using the eagle tactic mentioned above, but that all relies on the eagle not getting zapped by a bored lightning cannon or something.

skank
02-01-2010, 22:13
Wow, i'd never considered a HPA could charge you with it's flank as it pivots:confused:, suppose maybe it could according to 'shambling horror'...

Thats weird, i'll ask in the rules section what people think.

AtnaShadow
02-01-2010, 22:55
Razakel, you beat me to it, was just looking up the wording for Shambling Horror. By the wording, it looks like that pivot would bring it into combat and count as charging, as the pivot is, indeed, part of its movement

sulla
02-01-2010, 23:07
:evilgrin: So does it get impact hits on you when it hits with it's flank?

Dark Fire
02-01-2010, 23:22
Nope it has to face the direction in which it wants to travel - which implies front charges only....

LKHERO
02-01-2010, 23:38
So no LoS needed to charge? e.g. HPA is in a Forest and just happens to charge 12" out of it into a unit.

fubukii
03-01-2010, 04:35
So no LoS needed to charge? e.g. HPA is in a Forest and just happens to charge 12" out of it into a unit.

as far as i know it never mentions it moving through terrain freely so any roll you geget would be half while moving through terrain.

So i would say that 12 inch charge out of woods i unlikely unless he is at te very edge, and rolls really high

Lord Inquisitor
03-01-2010, 06:11
No unit is allowed within 1" of an enemy unit unless it charges, HPA is no exception. Seems to me a pivot/charge is a rule bend...

The HPA is actually not given explicit exception from the 1" rule, however, that would mean it can never actually inflict a charge because to count as charging it must first contact an enemy, which it can't do without breaching the 1" rule.

The HPA is clearly intended to be allowed to charge and to have a 360-degree charge arc. It is implicitly exempt from the 1" rule, if not explicitly. Your assertion that this implicit exemption applies to the move but not the pivot is based on what? I'm not saying my interpretation is necessarily more correct than yours, but it is certainly not less correct, because there is no ruling either way. Combined with the very clear intention for the thing to have a 360-degree charge (unlike the Doomwheel, which is a mess), this "tactic" obviously circumvents the spirit of the rule and based on an assumption of how the rules work, nothing more.

Kayosiv
03-01-2010, 11:50
as far as i know it never mentions it moving through terrain freely so any roll you geget would be half while moving through terrain.

So i would say that 12 inch charge out of woods i unlikely unless he is at te very edge, and rolls really high

I'd like some elaboration of this. I've had several people say that it ignores terrain for movement purposes. Do Spawn and other such random movement monsters suffer from them?

Dungeon_Lawyer
03-01-2010, 12:18
Alot of people are posting to simply shoot it, but that is a lot easier said then done with the stormbanner and that one skaven spell which nerfs shooting....If at all possible make sure you wound it sometime during the game with a fire-based attack, that way if/when it goes down it stays down.

fubukii
03-01-2010, 15:03
well the entry says this,
"Shambling Horror: A Hell Pit Abomination is moved in the owning player's Compulsory movement, moving 3D6 each turn. First, pivot the Hell Pit Abomination to face the direction in which you wish it to travel and then roll 3D6; this is how many inches directly forward the creature will move. If a triple is rolled, do not move the Hell Pit Abomination; instead roll immediately on the Berserk Abomination chart."

I dont see any reason why it would go through terrain with no penalty. Unless one argues that it has to travel the full 3d6 Unmodified.

Stinkfoot
03-01-2010, 15:25
I think the key sentence in the pivot-charge debate is: "If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging." Pivoting is described as movement, so if you can pivot into an enemy then you count as charging it. It doesn't say you have to move into it in the "3d6 inches forward" part of your move, just with "movement."

As for the difficult terrain business, it sounds to me that it moves full speed through terrain. The rule says you move 3d6 inches forward. It doesn't say to modify this for any reason, so we should assume you don't.

Slot
03-01-2010, 15:32
I think the key sentence in the pivot-charge debate is: "If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging." Pivoting is described as movement, so if you can pivot into an enemy then you count as charging it. It doesn't say you have to move into it in the "3d6 inches forward" part of your move, just with "movement."

As for the difficult terrain business, it sounds to me that it moves full speed through terrain. The rule says you move 3d6 inches forward. It doesn't say to modify this for any reason, so we should assume you don't.

I agree with this. Also, anyone placing models so the model can't do anything useful, i.e an eagle right next to it so that it can't pivot is taking advantage of a loophole. Seeing as how the abomination has heads/arms/brains everywhere i don't think that its facing would have much bearing on what it can kill

theunwantedbeing
03-01-2010, 15:40
As for the difficult terrain business, it sounds to me that it moves full speed through terrain. The rule says you move 3d6 inches forward. It doesn't say to modify this for any reason, so we should assume you don't.

You have that backwards.
Nothing says it doesnt ignore movement modifiers, so we assume it doesnt ignore them.

chaospantz
03-01-2010, 16:03
For the WE there are a couple options i think you can try running. The hail of doom arrow and some heavy shooting/dragon should be able to poke the thing down. A different option that i've been able to run with my shades is putting them in some trees close to the a-bomb so that he wants to try and charge them. Your going to want to flee for a couple of reasons 1)there's no way your scouts are going to tackle that beast alone. 2) as mean as the A-bomb is it dosn't say that its not slowed by terrain. If you can get him to chase you in there it should take a turn or 2 to get turned around and out while you focus on killing the rest of his army.

As for the modified movement we cant assume anything. The general rule right now is that things are rules as writen, not rules as intended. It's not like the Yheties, WE movement through trees, or the HE banner where the rule is in the book. I can turn to the page in the book and read it for myself if I need to. Unless they come out with a FAQ stating differently we cant assume that the A-bomb behaves any differently with terrain than any other unit just because it has a more random movement. Because of that the A-bomb, Doomwheel, and even the WoC spawn take movement penalties same as everyone else.

fubukii
03-01-2010, 16:22
thinking about it the spirit sword for a highbron would work well with his LD10

skank
03-01-2010, 17:23
If the HPA does not say it moves through difficult terrain without penalty then it follows the standard rules, ie goes half speed.


The HPA is actually not given explicit exception from the 1" rule, however, that would mean it can never actually inflict a charge because to count as charging it must first contact an enemy, which it can't do without breaching the 1" rule.

The HPA is clearly intended to be allowed to charge and to have a 360-degree charge arc. It is implicitly exempt from the 1" rule, if not explicitly. Your assertion that this implicit exemption applies to the move but not the pivot is based on what? I'm not saying my interpretation is necessarily more correct than yours, but it is certainly not less correct, because there is no ruling either way. Combined with the very clear intention for the thing to have a 360-degree charge (unlike the Doomwheel, which is a mess), this "tactic" obviously circumvents the spirit of the rule and based on an assumption of how the rules work, nothing more.

I'm suprised at you Lord Inquisitor. You show distain for my manouver which is just blocking a units movement with one of your own units using the standard rules (which seemed not to shock anyone else) but you are quite happy with the HPA doing a very dodgy flank/pivot/sideways charge that seems a real rule bend to me.
Not arguing the point, it seems HPA can flank/pivot/sideways charge by RAW (though i would disagree it's exempt from the 1" rule) don't have to like it though...:shifty:

Redvampire7
03-01-2010, 17:43
What if you use an Alter highborn with bow of loren + dragontooth arrows? All you need is one wound and it becomes stupid for the rest of the game. It can mess up his plans. And there is always the wardancer noble or highborn with blades of loec to finish it if it is low on wounds.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
03-01-2010, 22:34
What if you use an Alter highborn with bow of loren + dragontooth arrows? All you need is one wound and it becomes stupid for the rest of the game.

Careful, you'll start a new thread about "How does stupidity affect the HPA"

but seriously, when moving through difficult terrain its not like with a turn maneuver where you give up a portion of your movement, but every inch you travel in it counts as two, so the HPA random movement doesn't exempt it and the "has to move the full distance" argument doesn't work because it is moving its full distance (HPA getting stuck in a forest...Hoorah for tricksey Wood Elves).

As for this bit from Skank about this pivot/charge thing: RAW, "if your movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging", so if you're 1" away and the minimum distance the HPA can move is 3" then by declaring movement towards that unit it will be a charge. During the charge they can ignore the 1" rule for every enemy unit (not just the one their charging) so it try to pivot to face or pivot just enough so that moving forwar would cause it to touch your unit, but in both of these cases the first part of the HPA to touch your unit will flank but one of the front corners (which is part of its front). I think it is overall possible to force the HPA movement through positioning, but it requires several things; (1) it needs to be on a chariot base not a 50x50 (when it finally comes out) (2) you would need to position yourself so that no matter how it pivots, the HPA would end up touching (and hence charging) the flank of your unit even though it started in the unit's front arc (which it is not allowed to do). There may be a few others but it's not as simple as just putting your troops around the thing...and all cases I can think of will fall apart if it gets put on a 50x50mm base.

I suppose some units could pull this off, but the Wood Elf passion for skirmishes (which have no flanks) would add some challenges to using this strategy with Wood Elves.

PeG
04-01-2010, 14:28
On a related note any advice on handling the HPA with WoC. Since it usually comes with MR magic isnt the best option. So far I have tried Khorne knights and charging it with large monsters with varying success but it usually it has one or a few wounds left after my attacks and the counter attack can really hurt.

EndlessBug
04-01-2010, 14:41
sure you could place an eagle on one flank, the HPAs counter to that is to charge the eagle. You'd need an eagle on both flanks to stop it doing anything. Yes, this does stop the HPA moving its chosen direction for 1 turn. It's a valid tactic. It's incredibly similar to march blocking a unit or placing a fast cav unit in front of the enemy at 1" away and then fleeing, forcing the unit to either charge the unit in front of it (moving as a failed charge directly towards the fast cav) or overrunning the unit and moving it's march distance towards the fast cav.

on the bows:
10 archers:
long: 3's = 6.7 hits = 1.1 wounds = 0.5 wounds after regen
short 2's = 8.2 hits = 2.7 wounds = 1.3 wounds after regen

30" between the units at start. HPA moves 10.5" per turn, archers retreat 2.5" per turn. 4 turns to reach the archers, 2 long, 2 short. That's 3.6 wounds.

Pretty decent for 10 archers. Of course this is a very isolated example, the skaven would likely have the stormbanner and would also target spells to stop such happening (biggest threat to his army being shooting).

Lord Inquisitor
04-01-2010, 15:34
I'm suprised at you Lord Inquisitor. You show distain for my manouver which is just blocking a units movement with one of your own units using the standard rules (which seemed not to shock anyone else) but you are quite happy with the HPA doing a very dodgy flank/pivot/sideways charge that seems a real rule bend to me.
Sorry if I was rude. I get what you're saying and I absolutely agree that the HPA is a dirty horrible, well, abomination as far as rules are concerned. I just think that its patently clear that the thing is intended to indeed be able to charge backwards or whatever, and despite the fact that I abhor such units, I don't think that you should be able to get too close to something like this that it couldn't get you when it could get you if you were half an inch further away. It's gamey - it's like saying you can beat bloodletters with gobbos by clipping. It may indeed be a "tactic" that requires a great deal of skill to pull off and it may well offset the general overpoweredness of daemons, but it's still against the spirit of the rule and doesn't make any kind of realistic sense. I just don't think that two wrongs make a right.

Yes, my RAW of a pivot-charge mess is pretty unpalatable, but I was just using RAW to back up my (subjective) impression of the spirit of the rule (that the HPA is able to charge 360-degrees).

scar face
04-01-2010, 17:52
I've been having the same problem with by dark elves. I was playing 500pts the other day (I had a hydra, two units of crossbows, a master with a crossbow and a unit of harpies) and I was trounced by a skaven player whose list was a warlock engineer with doom rocket (dubbed the "wrong bomb" by my friends), 2 units of slaves, a unit of plague censers and the HPA.

skank
05-01-2010, 11:23
Sorry if I was rude. I get what you're saying and I absolutely agree that the HPA is a dirty horrible, well, abomination as far as rules are concerned. I just think that its patently clear that the thing is intended to indeed be able to charge backwards or whatever, and despite the fact that I abhor such units, I don't think that you should be able to get too close to something like this that it couldn't get you when it could get you if you were half an inch further away. It's gamey - it's like saying you can beat bloodletters with gobbos by clipping. It may indeed be a "tactic" that requires a great deal of skill to pull off and it may well offset the general overpoweredness of daemons, but it's still against the spirit of the rule and doesn't make any kind of realistic sense. I just don't think that two wrongs make a right.

Yes, my RAW of a pivot-charge mess is pretty unpalatable, but I was just using RAW to back up my (subjective) impression of the spirit of the rule (that the HPA is able to charge 360-degrees).

Nah, not rude, i was just suprised. I guess we like different things in the game. I'm not a fan of just 2 units grinding away at each other, luck aside, stronger unit wins and a 'realistic sense' is of little interest to me (though of course i love painted armies).

You could say it's in the spirit of the game that a unit of bloodletters 'should' be able to charge any gobbo units in their front 90degree but i like to see the gobbo player put a unit in the daemons opposite flank to stop the wheel (much harder to do if the unit does not go straight like a HPA, but possible) and live another day:).

Eternus
30-06-2010, 13:13
I played against one of these horrible things last night using Vampire Counts, and just didn't know what to do with it - I Gaze of Nagash'd it twice and it saved 8 wounds with Regen! I could throw Zombies at it, but between combat damage and resolution damage, I would be losing around 10-15 Zombies per combat phase, so around 25 between my own magic phases. People have suggested Blood Knights, I have considered Vamp Lord with Frost Blade, Infinite Hatred and Red Fury, but both these options are way expensive - a cheaper option might be Vamp Lord with Balefire Spike, maybe the Hand of Dust as well, and Mounted, again with Infinite Hatred and Red Fury?

If my opponent makes the mistake of not upgrading it with the Spikes of magical attack, then I think a Sprit Host would be an option, but I wouldn't know whether it had been upgraded until I've invested 240 points in a Spirit Host.

Any suggestions? My issue is I don't really want to invest 500-600 points killing the thing, but it's way too dangerous to ignore - you can't bait it, you struggle to redirect it, it can restrain pursuit - the thing's a nightmare!

Cheers in advance.

Maelstorm
01-07-2010, 17:02
As answer to the WoC question, we only have 3 really good answers and some avrage ones. One thing that will absolutly wreck it is Hellfire sword on a lord. Another good thing is Flickering fire, cast at max range, if he doesn´t have MR (is it 2?). The last thing is Khornate Knights with lances and full command. 13 s6 attacks that hit on 3+ WILL hurt him.

Otherwise, just leave it and try and deal with it at range, or smack the small rats that accompany it.

For WE...though luck?

Von Wibble
01-07-2010, 18:51
Banner of flaming attacks on a unit of glade guard containing a model with HODA. Even with storm banner in town that's going to be pretty effective.

ftayl5
02-07-2010, 00:49
1 is deal-able. Shoot it, avoid it, march block it so you get more time shooting it and shoot it with your march blockers - things wood elves do well. If it gets into combat, flee and flee well unless it has like 1 wound left then shoot it again.

If an opponent brings 2 a-bomb's to the table, simply throw them out the window.

For VC the best idea is to bog it down with zombies. If the Skaven were dumb enough not to give it magical attacks, attack it with wraiths and other ethereal stuff. I found a few days ago that an Abyssal Terror with a well equipped Vampire Lord are more than a match for it :)

Sygerrik
02-07-2010, 03:04
It's a lot worse now. It can't strike first on the charge, which was a major strength because of its potentially massive charge range. And there's a lot more ways to get flaming attacks now.

Eternus
02-07-2010, 07:52
1 is deal-able. Shoot it, avoid it, march block it so you get more time shooting it and shoot it with your march blockers - things wood elves do well. If it gets into combat, flee and flee well unless it has like 1 wound left then shoot it again.

If an opponent brings 2 a-bomb's to the table, simply throw them out the window.

For VC the best idea is to bog it down with zombies. If the Skaven were dumb enough not to give it magical attacks, attack it with wraiths and other ethereal stuff. I found a few days ago that an Abyssal Terror with a well equipped Vampire Lord are more than a match for it :)


It's a lot worse now. It can't strike first on the charge, which was a major strength because of its potentially massive charge range. And there's a lot more ways to get flaming attacks now.

Cool, thanks guys - at least I know I was thinking along the right lines. I think Zombies will be the way to go, or if I have lots of points a Vamp Lord with Balefire Spike and traits to kill.

SatireSphere
02-07-2010, 22:40
Deploying your war machines on top of an anvil of vaul certain helps. (gives them flaming and magical attacks)