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Kukkelukke
01-01-2010, 22:07
Hey. After a long love-affair with the wood elves i decided to make a Skaven army...

Im thinking about making a competetive all-round army with the vermin..

I have only played Chaos mortals and woddies, so i have no idea how to run this horde army!

I now turn to you guys out there with a little rat experience!
- What is a MUST, and what sucks the most?
- How to archieve victory?
- Any good builds?
- Any nice tactics etc?
- Any good painting advice?

Thank you :D

Brother Edwin
01-01-2010, 22:27
Well the new book is just out. So everyone is really in a stage of trying stuff out.

I can tell you that doomwheels are very nasty. I've been using 2 for flanking.

Also I will say magic heavy is not the way to go. Skaven magic has become very short ranged and situational. I prefer a warlord at the moment. However certain spells at the right time can be devastating.

Slaves are a must. Skaven are weak in close combat so having units to set up flank charges with are a must.

Min sized giant rat units are nice for many things, mainly charging into the side of things to take out ranks.

Plague censor bearers are amazing, as devastating as cairn wraiths but only 16 pts a model. However they cannot be relied on because of frenzy. I find they always end up killing their points back and are a annoyance for the enemy even if they end up getting baited away from the fight.

I have not used one however a lot of people are saying hell pit abominations are very powerful.

Stormvermin are over priced.

The verminlord also is very fragile for 500pts, and cant be the general. I would very much recomend a grey seer, or warlord queek who is ld8.

Whatever you choose have fun.

Foegnasher
01-01-2010, 23:02
- What is a MUST, and what sucks the most?
- How to archieve victory?
- Any good builds?
- Any nice tactics etc?
- Any good painting advice?


1) Numbers are a must. Keep your units numerous and cheap as you dare. Go big, 20 for slaves, 25-30 for clanrats. Get big units of giantrats. Couple small units of censer bearers. Always take a battle standard bearer.

2)Out flank, pick your battles. Don't fight fair. Always outnumber. Shoot/magic anything you can't handle. Redirect charges with slaves.

Look up my old bat reps for builds and tatics. Don't be an abuseive rathole.

Drybrush the fur.

hobodog
02-01-2010, 07:08
You're going to be painting tonnes of the little furry buggers so it's all drybrushing and washing.
Also a hellpit abomination isn't only cool but a very powerful unit

Skogla
02-01-2010, 07:10
Hellcheese-bomination, nuff said

Razakel
02-01-2010, 07:21
I now turn to you guys out there with a little rat experience!
- What is a MUST, and what sucks the most?
- How to archieve victory?
- Any good builds?
- Any nice tactics etc?
- Any good painting advice?

Thank you :D

#1: Units in the Skaven army operate differently to other armies. Just because a unit sucks, doesn't mean you shouldn't take it. Skaven Slaves for example are a great unit, they're dirt cheap, absorb missile and Magic attacks and I don't think they cause Panic in friendly units if they get owned.

However as was said before me, your army should at all times attempt to be more numerous than the enemy. Numbers count for everything in the Skaven army, especially since you add your rank bonus to your Leadership, it counts BIG TIME, to have big units.

#2: Skaven have good Magic, while not being overpowered. I think it is weaker than its previous version, however anyone who says its not good enough is comparing it to the Lore of Vampires or the Lore of Darkness (VC & DE respectively). I would consider it wise to take a few Engineers or a Grey Seer if you can.

#4:The Screaming Bell & Plague furnace are two amazing units. You should try to include a Plague Furnace if you can, the model looks fantastic and the effect it has on your army is insane. You will not regret it.

#5: The Doomwheel is a good, if dodgey unit. Nobody really knows how it works (fully anyway) and I'd hold off on using one until the Errata/FAQ has been published by Games Workshop.

#6: The Hellpit Abomination is another incredible unit, left untouched it can devastate an entire army. You can rely on this thing, although it isn't Immune to Psychology (the hells up with that?)

#7: As for tactics, you should always use your superior numbers to have a good army in the center to engage and trap enemy units in close combat. Then outflank them with your more numerous force and try to get Flank Charges. This is far from a foolproof tactic and you'll be able to develop your own as time goes by.

All that said, best of luck with your new army!

Jind_Singh
02-01-2010, 07:35
I've never played with Skaven but have been fevourishly reading their book all week! I am an Orc & Goblin player, and Ogre Kingdoms (well Empire & Deamons too but they dont count), so I know all about having crappy units to work with.

In this book I'd say

1) MAGIC - With the exception of a few notable exceptions, spells of ruin...well they dont ruin! Scorch is by far the one and only deadly spell, the rest are very vauge - the one that makes missle fire harder to hit - great v's evles, sucks against other armies! Skitter leap - big deal, you jump the hero - then the hero has to accomplish something by himself!
Spells of plauge are by far better - which is great as it's an excuse to field plauge monks and their furnace!
2) CORE- SLAVES!!!! Awesome units - for 20 models your paying for spit in a bucket, something like 40pts! I could field 12 units of 20, send them forwards in waves of 6, wear down the foe, and then send in the 2nd wave (or 3 waves of 4!), because even as they die they cause autohits on the enemy! Imagine the high elves - 240 slaves to deal with BEFORE they get to grips with my army! This is only FIVE HUNDRED POINTS :D
2nd on the list would be 12 giant rats with handlers - they fight in 2 ranks, even on the charge, so they are deadly! use them to flank the units slaves hit and you might even win combats!
Clanrats are decent cannon foddor, reasonably priced, and they are useful to hide characters in, have some kind of combat res, and not get beat too easy. Stormvermin seem expensive but to hell with the nay sayers - the models are just bloody gorgeous, they are core, and I'll be using a unit at least in the army. If you use the special headtaker character 1 unit has ability to become upgraded - WS5, str 5!!! And still similar pricing to my black orcs, so not expensive.
Night runners are so-so...the cool thing about them is their weapon team, a tunneling machine, but its pricey and theres no model out for it. Also i personally detest the old night runner models compared to the high quality of new clan rats/storm vermin so i have not really explored the uses of anything clan Eshin.
3) SPECIAL - Holy crap...Censor bearers! Ekkk! They are just plain ole nasty, nasty - 3 str 5 attacks with hatred - who wouldn't be scared of that?!!! Gutter runners are interesting as they can walk on from any table edge so they could be a real pain to artiallary, but they are random! Jezzials are always nasty, not so keen on posioned wind globeadiers - they just have too short a range for me, and are not template weapons. If they had small template or multi-hits then maybe.Rat Ogres, while they were beefed up this edition, are still pricey for what they do, so I'd say no - but having said that you'll see units of them from time to time in my army depending on my moods, for I love the notion of their existance! Plauge monks are awesome - Tough as Orcs, they also allow you to take a furnace! EKK!
4) RARES - I love all the rares, the doomwheel is just an amazing model and has potential to be really annoying for its points value, the abomination is just a pure nutter...I've never seen such a destructive, ugly monstor ever - makes a hydra look like a pussy cat! Warp lighthing cannon is WOAH! Just like an empire cannon you guess the range and bounce the ball - BUT guess what? Not just a single line, no sir! Its a blooming template which is still multi wounds! EKKK!
5) Characters - Dirt cheap, theres a hero choice that costs a few more points than a basic black orc trooper..not big boss or warboss, but a plain black orc trooper!
I love the special characters, theres some really decent affordable choices, you can build crazy characters, and I'd see almost every army have 1-2 plauge priests with furnaces! I toyed with a screaming bell - it's deadly - but the presence of a bell means grey seer whose magic isnt all that.

All in all the army is hideous - because this book really allows you build themes around the clans - for eg take a special clan pestlin character and you can field plauge monks as core! Same goes for the moulder clan, etc, so its soooo hard to choose an army!

HOBBY TIP! The clanrats box comes with 20 models - I was shown by my mate that only 10 are actually properly armoured while 10 are really covered in rags, making great slaves.
So each box has 10 clan rats and 10 slaves, for some reason they put 9 clan rats and 1 slave on a sprue, with 9 slaves and 1 clan rat on the other!
But you could build them all as clan rats and it would look fine. But you'll be needed a lot of these boxes - to field my dream 12 units of slaves means at least 12 boxes of clanrats - thats hella expensive! And if I want to use 'slave only' models it means 24 boxes or finding someone to trade with! EKK!

$1056 inc taxes for 24 boxes - holy crappers Batman!

mrtn
02-01-2010, 12:17
HOBBY TIP! The clanrats box comes with 20 models - I was shown by my mate that only 10 are actually properly armoured while 10 are really covered in rags, making great slaves.
So each box has 10 clan rats and 10 slaves, for some reason they put 9 clan rats and 1 slave on a sprue, with 9 slaves and 1 clan rat on the other!
But you could build them all as clan rats and it would look fine. But you'll be needed a lot of these boxes - to field my dream 12 units of slaves means at least 12 boxes of clanrats - thats hella expensive! And if I want to use 'slave only' models it means 24 boxes or finding someone to trade with! EKK!
Skaven don't just use other skaven as slaves, they enslave other races as well, such as goblins and humans. Clan Rictus from Crookback Mountain for example are famous for the many goblin slaves they own. Most of my slaves are made up of BfSP night goblins, converted with skaven shields and hand weapons, with a spattering of skaven, dwarven and skink slaves. Check my painting diary (link in sig) if you're interested.

OldMan
02-01-2010, 12:46
The army is damn good, and allow overpowered lists.

What is powerful?
Hellpit Abomination - it's no brainer, only remember its a random stuff, so you need plan B for battles where it misfires, or keeps rolling 3 for movement.

Doomheel - the most wonderfull model i have seen. Very powerfull, but it's rules are really clumsy written. You should notify to an opponent, that nobody knows for sure how it works, just have general picture

Cannon - as have been sad, this toy can be really devestating. Its the most skaveny unit - horribly random, but with potential to obliterate a whole army ( including your own :) )

Clanrats - please use them. Many players gravitate to having mnimal numbers and maxing out toys, but i agree with Foegnasher, that REAL skaven army, should outnumber enemy. This nice fellows have made wonders for me before, and hey are now cheaper.

Weapon teams - they got nerfed. They have now 90 degrees line of sight witch makes them trickier to use than before. Take one or 2 You like, but spamming them is poor idea.

Stay away from:
nightrunners - they are just too expensive

gutter runners - same

warp grinder - at present, tunneling have became too expensive, making risk/reward ratio unsatisfactory. Sure, 20 nightrunner charging from the back with warp grinder can be devastating, but You don't want to put 200pts at such a risk. Same with gutter runners.

Bell - i don't like it. Furnace can make unit unbreakable just as well, and bell's effects are random and too situational to be useful. For 50 more than furnace you reliably get only 4+ ward save.

Warlord - this guy simply sucks now. It can make wonderful model with ratogre bonebreaker, but still remain night useless. Its only plus is being dirty cheap, and this is why i will probably him out.

mrtn
02-01-2010, 13:20
Weapon teams - they got nerfed. They have now 90 degrees line of sight witch makes them trickier to use than before. Take one or 2 You like, but spamming them is poor idea.
I don't see how you come to that conclusion. But even if that would be correct the WFT and the ratling gun can pivot and shoot, so that should be a moot point for them (unless you want to charge with them...).

Razakel
02-01-2010, 13:32
The Ratling Gun has been badly nerfed, it needs to roll to hit now, which reduces the number of average hits per game by half.

OldMan
02-01-2010, 13:47
I don't see how you come to that conclusion. But even if that would be correct the WFT and the ratling gun can pivot and shoot, so that should be a moot point for them (unless you want to charge with them...).

They lost skirmisher rule and are not warmachines, who have skirmisher LOS rule. In 7th edition single models don't have 360 degree sight - no dragon or chariot can charge backwards and so weapon teamas can't shoot like that.

The "free pivot" thing is deceiving, for it takes place after choosing "visible target".

Kuroi
02-01-2010, 18:08
Pft, warpfire throwers are for example, move or fire, but the book clearly states that the model can pivot to face the enemy it intends to shoot, now what the **** would be the point in that if it couldnt pivot to face something that was behind it?

Also, yeah, weapon teams might have lost their skirmish rule, however they only have 1 wound, and therefore unit strenght 1, and in my mind, if you're going to be that ******* and claim that they can't pivot towards their intended target, then i might aswell argue that they should count as a single character, and therefore benefit from a 360 degee line of sight ;)


Edit: Where does it say that single characters/models doesn't get 360 degree line of sight? o.O

Foegnasher
02-01-2010, 18:30
Pft, warpfire throwers are for example, move or fire, but the book clearly states that the model can pivot to face the enemy it intends to shoot, now what the **** would be the point in that if it couldnt pivot to face something that was behind it?

Also, yeah, weapon teams might have lost their skirmish rule, however they only have 1 wound, and therefore unit strenght 1, and in my mind, if you're going to be that ******* and claim that they can't pivot towards their intended target, then i might aswell argue that they should count as a single character, and therefore benefit from a 360 degee line of sight ;)


Edit: Where does it say that single characters/models doesn't get 360 degree line of sight? o.O

yeah, book says "counts as a single model" meaning they have 360 line of sight. sweet for the doomflayer, who can charge anywhichaway.

skank
02-01-2010, 23:59
It's unit strengh 2 so you don't get 360 LOS, however whats the point of the team pivoting to face a target if its in LOS anyway. Sounds like you pivot like a warmachine to me.

Not sure though.

mrtn
03-01-2010, 13:11
We don't know if it's US 2, since GW isn't in the habit of writing out useful info in armybooks like that. I'm not saying that it isn't, but it's not mentioned to be, either in the armybook or the rulebook.
We don't even know if a doom-flayer or a poison wind mortar is supposed to go on a cavalry base.

The Blue Knight
03-01-2010, 14:53
We don't even know if a doom-flayer or a poison wind mortar is supposed to go on a cavalry base.

We won't know until GW sells us one.

OldMan
03-01-2010, 16:19
I repeat: In 7th. Edition single models have 90 gegrees line of sight as everything else. Your lone wizard can't cast fireball, if he is facing away from enemy. There was a rule in last edition for single models seing everything all around them, but it was removed probably to nerf chariots and dragons. All we have now is LOS rules on page 8, and exeptions from them for skirmishers and warmashines. There is not even such thing like single model ruleswise (check index)

The free pivot thing in fire thrower is there because of the way it shoots. You put template at the end of barrel and move it by a distance rolled. If there was no pivot, the fire arc would be 1 degree - directly from barrel.

BTW. I find it dumb too, but thats how it is written, and there are really no arguments for RAI aproach here.

Foegnasher
03-01-2010, 17:29
We won't know until GW sells us one.

mine are converted ratlinguns. they are on cav bases.

mrtn
03-01-2010, 19:23
I repeat: In 7th. Edition single models have 90 gegrees line of sight as everything else. Your lone wizard can't cast fireball, if he is facing away from enemy. There was a rule in last edition for single models seing everything all around them, but it was removed probably to nerf chariots and dragons. All we have now is LOS rules on page 8, and exeptions from them for skirmishers and warmashines. There is not even such thing like single model ruleswise (check index)

The free pivot thing in fire thrower is there because of the way it shoots. You put template at the end of barrel and move it by a distance rolled. If there was no pivot, the fire arc would be 1 degree - directly from barrel.

BTW. I find it dumb too, but thats how it is written, and there are really no arguments for RAI aproach here.
You should check the FAQs and Erratas. :)

Q. Do US1 characters (on foot) have a 360-degree
line of sight? How about any single US1 model on
foot, such as the last model of an infantry unit?
Are the models in both instances treated fully as
Skirmishers?
A. Yes, they are exactly the same. Page 5 of part 2 of the FAQ.