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The Blue Knight
02-01-2010, 14:58
In getting ready to assembly by new boxes of Clanrats the invetiable question as to their outfitting came up; to give them spears or not?

In checking the posts in Army Lists, Tactics, and BatReps, I could find no definitive direction as the Lists and BatReps seem to have a some Armies with spears, some without and some with both. I suspect that players are merely using older units (with spears) they have 'on-hand' for their lists and battles, and might not choose that option again when starting from scratch.

The spears seem to be very wicked looking and I like the notion of the 2nd rank attacking, but my sense of economy tells me to save the points for more Clanrats, for more rats equals more ranks and units. For more is always more in Skaven Army right?

Is there any case out there for giving your Clanrats spears?

Similarly are players giving their Slaves shields to give them a 5+ base save in CC?

My thanks to those who are willing to help an aspiring Chieftain out.

My apologies if these topics have been run through before.

snottlebocket
02-01-2010, 15:14
For basic infantry handweapon and shield is almost always the best option. Light armour plus a handweapon and shield give the basic clanrat and armoursave of 4+ in combat. Pretty respectable. They won't kill that much anyway so you want to prevent them from dying as much as possible. The less clanrats die, the less combat resolution your opponents scores.

All the rankbonus in the world isn't going to help you if your skaven just drop like flies.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
02-01-2010, 16:12
I've never even thought to give the Clanrats spears. It just seems to be a waste of good horde points, as you said. Also, S3 isn't enough of an attack for me to warrant more points and less armor save. When I used to field HElfs, my spearmen with better stats that ASF and fight in 3 ranks STILL always got smashed. S3 just has no punch to it at all.

As far as Slaves with Shields go, it depends who you're facing and if you have the spare points. I field 3 units of 20 Slaves, so if I have the extra 30 points at the end, sure why not? Also if I'm going against an enemy with low Strength basic infantry like Gobos or Undead, it makes them hold much longer. Then again, its all a matter if you want them to hold or explode.

Razakel
02-01-2010, 18:28
Giving Slaves shields is unheard of at my club, but there you go, its all about personal taste. As for Clanrats and Spears, well thats an okay option I suppose. But the Hand Weapon + Shield combination makes them that much more resilient, I sincerely hope the next version of the game will make the second rank have increased strength or some other bonus.

Right now I'd say Hand Weapon + Shield is almost always the superior option, but you shouldn't listen to people on a forum entirely, try both and see what you like. It would take a particularly bad sportsman to not let you proxy models in a friendly.

The Blue Knight
03-01-2010, 13:36
Thanks for your advice guys.

I think that the Clanrats will be assemble with the sheild and CCW in order to make them a litte more survivable in CC.

For the slaves they will not be equipped with sheilds. However if they are getting panicked or wiped out, say by shooting, prior to reaching their goal or target, then shields may be considered.

Slot
03-01-2010, 14:26
Thanks for your advice guys.

I think that the Clanrats will be assemble with the sheild and CCW in order to make them a litte more survivable in CC.

For the slaves they will not be equipped with sheilds. However if they are getting panicked or wiped out, say by shooting, prior to reaching their goal or target, then shields may be considered.

Getting wiped out is their job. If the opponent wants to shoot them, let them. If he wipes a unit of slaves out, its still only 40pts down :D

SilverWarlock
03-01-2010, 14:26
Spears on clannies are pretty much never a good use of points. The extra save from the shields will give more CR than the extra attacks against any tough target (and easy targets aren't really a concern).

Shields on slaves ... it's an interesting idea that I used to use. The main issue of trying to win combat with slaves (because that's the real interest of the shields) is that they are much much worse at it than clannies. The clanrats are cheap enough you can have lots so running combat slaves seems like a poor choice and shields are wasted on bait/screens.

The more interesting option on slaves is to take slings. This has several advantages, the first is that they can do damage to large targets (especially giants and hellpit abominations which have no save). Remember that every rank gets to shoot against a large target so with 21 slings at long range (or that just moved up to short range) that's 42 shots, 7 hits, 1.17 wounds. For a 50 point unit that is pretty good. The other advantage is to get rid of fast cav. A lot of armies will use units of 5 T3 cav models to try to flank or screen, these units are much less dangerous if they take a few hits. Units of slaves deployed 10 wide can guard a flank against them, even hitting on 7s if necessary, most of those units can also panic ... or get worn down by slaves if they are down to only 2-3 models.

The Blue Knight
03-01-2010, 15:05
The more interesting option on slaves is to take slings.

Yes, that is an interesting option. One that I had completed glossed over. Perhaps one unit of Slaves with slings is something to work in a list just to have an optional cheap (albeit close range) shooting unit. I'll have to think more on that.

SilverWarlock
03-01-2010, 15:55
Yes, that is an interesting option. One that I had completed glossed over. Perhaps one unit of Slaves with slings is something to work in a list just to have an optional cheap (albeit close range) shooting unit. I'll have to think more on that.

I'm looking at 4x21 slaves with slings right now ... makes things like manticores/giants/hellpit Abombs and stuff really need to watch out. Also makes it hard to manoeuvre light units around the flanks (amazing what a turn and adding 5 frontage will do just before shooting).

Foegnasher
04-01-2010, 17:05
The minute you start thinking about clanrats and spears, start looking at giant rats.

30 clanrats, spears is 150 points before command.

26 giant rats and 4 packmasters is 110 poonts, and is faster and gets more attacks.

No brainer, really

And slaves don't need slings. They need to be moving toward the enemy, and setting for charges. They can't do that if they are going 1/2 march move and then shooting with a bs of 2 with a -1 for moveing. No thanks.

snottlebocket
04-01-2010, 18:44
Yes, that is an interesting option. One that I had completed glossed over. Perhaps one unit of Slaves with slings is something to work in a list just to have an optional cheap (albeit close range) shooting unit. I'll have to think more on that.

Don't worry too much about the range. You don't take units like slaves with slings or goblins with short bows for regular shooting.

You still use the unit as a big, cheap, ranked block of infantry but when a large target comes close... you get to pelt it with a boatload of shots since every rank can fire.

SimonL
04-01-2010, 18:48
I've tried the slaves w/ slings before, it did not prove useful and made me worry more about positioning them than about their real purpose; getting eaten by other units whilst I attack them from behind or bomb them with templates.

The Blue Knight
05-01-2010, 00:46
The minute you start thinking about clanrats and spears, start looking at giant rats.

30 clanrats, spears is 150 points before command.

26 giant rats and 4 packmasters is 110 poonts, and is faster and gets more attacks.

No brainer, really



Giant rats with packmasters were always part ofplan for the army build. I just have not bought them yet. I do however truly appreciate that tip and any others you might have. ;)

fubukii
06-01-2010, 06:54
clanrats come with a hefty 4+ save in cc thats really what you are paying for.

if you looking for str 3 attack spam giant rats are indeed the way to go. if you want a block that can hold a bit go clanrats just leave the spears at home :P

Tarian
06-01-2010, 20:11
I agree with the above posters, keep your units cheap(ish) which means you can field more of them. Skaven "quality" is on par with some core troops... silly Stormvermin, WS4 is for Elves!

EDIT: And slaves should be kept as cheap as possible... what self-respecting Skaven warlord would spend valuable warptokens on equipment for slaves, when those tokens could be used for more personal protection? :D

The Blue Knight
08-01-2010, 11:18
Many thanks to those who contributed.

No spears for the Clanrats and no sheilds for the Slaves.

AtmaTheWanderer
08-01-2010, 19:25
I have spears and shields on my clanrats that go with my bell, as I want to maximize my swings back and I don't care how many I lose, since they're unbreakable.

Other then that though, Total waste.

And never, ever upgrade slaves. Ever. With anything. It's a complete waste of points and totally un-skaven... why would you equip something that's entire purpose is to die for the glory of the Horned Rat.