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skank
02-01-2010, 22:37
He's the rules for how a HPA move and charge.

Shambling Horror: A Hell Pit Abomination is moved in the owning player's Compulsory movement, moving 3D6 each turn. First, pivot the Hell Pit Abomination to face the direction in which you wish it to travel and then roll 3D6; this is how many inches directly forward the creature will move. If a triple is rolled, do not move the Hell Pit Abomination; instead roll immediately on the Berserk Abomination chart.

If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging. The target may make a charge reaction as norma, counting the movement value rolled as the Abominations maximum charge distance (for purposes of fleeing, standing and shooting and so on). If the move is blocked by impassable terrain the Hell Pit Abomination will stop 1" away from it. If the Hell Pit Abomination's move takes it into a friendly unit the creature will immediately cause D6 Impact Hits to the unit in its way, before withdrawing 1" back and ending its movement.

So, is it possible for a HPA to charge an enemy unit in it's flank during it's initial pivot?
Say a greateagle is 1" away from the abomb in it's flank, out of LOS so the HPA has not the room to pivot to face it. Can the HPA use it's pivot to contact the eagle with its flank and so count as charging it?

maswalaki
02-01-2010, 22:56
Yes indeed. You just turn it then roll. No LoS, or other silly normal charge restrictions involved.
I don't really get the 2nd part... you mean that there is impassable terrain blocking it's movement almost every direction, and the Eagle blocks the rest? It just pivots, and moves, as per above. Don't assume that it's on a chariot base (it can be 50x50, or well, since there isn't a model, it could be a lot other base-sizes as well), maybe it'll have a round one, with faces every direction, then they'll FAQ that as well...

nosferatu1001
02-01-2010, 23:13
In your example - no, as you cannot perform the pivot. This has nothing to do with the HPA special rules, just that you cannot physically turn the model in place.

This assumes that the HPA is on a chariot sized base, which is appropriate for something of its size.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
02-01-2010, 23:17
Pivoting is part of movement, and therefore, by RAW, he counts as charging. It says nothing of what part of the A-Bomb has to be touching the enemy for it to do its impact hits/charge/etc.

skank
02-01-2010, 23:29
I was assuming the HPA was on a chariot base but make no difference i suppose (unless the damn thing is on a round base).
The eagle blocks all pivoting movement as it is too close to the HPA for it (the HPA) to physically move.
As far as i can see the HPA can only move directly forward... unless... the HPA is allowed to pivot within 1" of the eagle as it would bring it into contact and count as a charge.

Would be a very unconventional charge as the HPA would be charging with it's flank, via a pivot.

Edit: Ninja'd by xlast of the orderx
Ok, you get +1 for flanking the HPA even though it charged you?

nosferatu1001
02-01-2010, 23:37
Well not from the great eagle, as it is not US5...

In this case the HPA rules seem to be restricting the definition of the "move" which counts as charging to the actual movement forward.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
03-01-2010, 08:59
I would say the same, but given the lack of clarity in the Skaven book, and the need for FAQ on virtually everything in it, my ruling would be based on who I played against.

If they want to go RAW on me, and say that my Plague Furnace gets expelled from the unit when my Priest gets sniped because it is a "Monstrous Mount", then yes, my A-Bomb will immediately charge its own flank into anything that it can touch its base with on a pivot. Fair is fair.

In a friendly game, I would hope neither instance would be an issue. In a tournament setting, both could cause horrendous results.

skank
03-01-2010, 18:03
Well not from the great eagle, as it is not US5...

True but it brings up more questions, if the HPA is able to sideslam into an ememy, the unfortunates would get the flank bonus (if us5 at end of combat)


In this case the HPA rules seem to be restricting the definition of the "move" which counts as charging to the actual movement forward.

Because it says "If a triple is rolled, do not move the Hell Pit Abomination" after pivoting is done?

nosferatu1001
03-01-2010, 19:34
It was the "if the movement takes it..." part, with before it "moving 3D6 each turn" seems to indicate that pivoting deos not count as movement.

Sifal
04-01-2010, 00:13
I really think this is an faq job. the rules as written do technically state that if any of the hpa movement causes it to touch it counts as charging. However, I really think (and I know it's speculative) that GW will faq it as the charge has to be part of the 3d6 movement roll. If this turns out to be the case i see no problem with blocking it's turn with a unit. However, in the mean time, can't skaven players just pivot the model at the front centre of the base to avoid the whole problem and still be able to turn to face said pesky eagle etc. In many ways pivoting from the front centre makes more sense than from the true centre of the base as that causes the hpa to move farther over the course of two lots of 3d6 rolls than the total sum of the 6d6 dice.

Xzazzarai
04-01-2010, 00:28
You need LOS in order to be allowed to charge.
There is nothing that says the HPA is allowed to charge sideways (AND not having LOS), hence, it can't.

Therefor: No, you can not charge the eagle.

The HPA can only move forward, Then pivot.

skank
04-01-2010, 00:37
I really think this is an faq job. the rules as written do technically state that if any of the hpa movement causes it to touch it counts as charging. However, I really think (and I know it's speculative) that GW will faq it as the charge has to be part of the 3d6 movement roll. If this turns out to be the case i see no problem with blocking it's turn with a unit. However, in the mean time, can't skaven players just pivot the model at the front centre of the base to avoid the whole problem and still be able to turn to face said pesky eagle etc. In many ways pivoting from the front centre makes more sense than from the true centre of the base as that causes the hpa to move farther over the course of two lots of 3d6 rolls than the total sum of the 6d6 dice.

Pivots are always around the centre of the unit, just like a wheel always pivots on a corner.

Xzazzarai: HPAs are like spawn, no LOS required to charge. They can't pivot at the end of their turn, only at the begining.

nosferatu1001
04-01-2010, 09:04
You need LOS in order to be allowed to charge.
There is nothing that says the HPA is allowed to charge sideways (AND not having LOS), hence, it can't.

Therefor: No, you can not charge the eagle.

The HPA can only move forward, Then pivot.

I assume you read neither the OP or any of the discussions? HPA is specifically allowed to count as charging simply by making contact, and is specifically allowed to pivot first as it cannot pivot at the end (which is also explained in BRB FAQ part 2)

As above - the rules for the HPA seem to only consider the 3D6 to be movement, and therefore the initial pivot deosnt count as movement in order to count as charging.

Slot
04-01-2010, 10:17
GW seriously need to test their rules properly, this is going to go on and on...

punkoteloco
04-01-2010, 19:23
I had the same question last game. My A-Bomb Charged a unit it had behind. But yes, the rules are poorly written. First you pivot, then you move and if you touch someone, surprise they are dead...
Im a skaven player and im wanting a FAQ here, seems a little overpowered with that movement charge thing.

nosferatu1001
04-01-2010, 19:33
The movement charge thing is perfectly acceptable - squig hoppers, pump wgaons etc have been able to do this for ages.

theunwantedbeing
04-01-2010, 22:55
If it pivots into contact, it still has to hit the arc it started in and has to maximise properly.

Several things can do this already, the Abom is just the biggest and meanest one that gets to.

punkoteloco
05-01-2010, 00:05
Yeah i know, it can even charge after it returned from outside the battlefield if im not mistaken right? At least thatīs what happened with a bunch of squig hoppers last game...

nosferatu1001
05-01-2010, 02:03
Nope, as it moves in the compulsory moves phase - which is before you are allowed to move when returning from the board edge (you may only move in Remaining moves, to eliminate backfield charges)

Xzazzarai
05-01-2010, 02:58
I assume you read neither the OP or any of the discussions? HPA is specifically allowed to count as charging simply by making contact, and is specifically allowed to pivot first as it cannot pivot at the end (which is also explained in BRB FAQ part 2)

As above - the rules for the HPA seem to only consider the 3D6 to be movement, and therefore the initial pivot deosnt count as movement in order to count as charging.

Are you serious?

Does that seem reasonable to you?

nosferatu1001
05-01-2010, 11:26
Am i serious about what? That the HPA can charge any unit within range, regardless of where it is facing at the start? Then YES, as that is part of its rules - it is exempted from the normal charge declaration requirements. It also cannot pivot at the end to gain a better facing for being charged.

I assume you have not played against pump wagons, squig hoppers, spawn etc - which all work in exactly the same way.

bert n ernie
05-01-2010, 12:28
When actually attempting to manouver the A-Bomb around the battle field it is difficult enough, especially as it is a large target and will be shot if it moves too far or not far enough. In a way this balances with the fact that it is so good at charging the enemy. Yes it's powerful, but it's not unfair. Some of the niggly bits that need FAQing are unfair in some way.

Xzazzarai
05-01-2010, 12:38
Am i serious about what? That the HPA can charge any unit within range, regardless of where it is facing at the start? Then YES, as that is part of its rules - it is exempted from the normal charge declaration requirements. It also cannot pivot at the end to gain a better facing for being charged.

I assume you have not played against pump wagons, squig hoppers, spawn etc - which all work in exactly the same way.

There is still nothing that says they are allowed to charge without LoS.
Well, ok, it does say "if it makes contact, it counts as a charge" but then, you are not allowed to charge what you can't see...

To me it just seems like a miss in the wording of the rules... again.

But I still woudn't allow such a move, unless in a tournament where the arranger tells me otherwise...

nosferatu1001
05-01-2010, 13:24
Then you wouldnt do the same for Pump Wagons, Squig Hoppers etc?

the rules do say it can charge as it states it counts as chargin when it makes contact - that overrides the prohibitions on declaring a charge that you cite.

It is astoundingly clear and you would have to play it this way in any tournament, and should expect to do so. You can houserule this if you like, just be aware it IS a houserule and thererfore you should make it clear beforehand.

rottahn
16-01-2010, 22:30
i agree with Xzazzarai's exasperation because the HPA is really overpowered. especially with it having US 5 to break ranks. until it is FAQd though, i would agree that it can charge without LOS.

Urgat
17-01-2010, 00:25
Why do people call it the abomb, btw?

Other than that, yeah, it doesn't need to have LoS to make contact and therefore "charge". But I believe there IS a faq somewhere (was dealing with spawns and the likes) explaining how you have to pick the side that you'd reach if it was a normal charge, and therefore can't get to the flank if you were in the "front" angle of the charged unit. Well I'm at work, so I'll let someone else look it up, but I know this issue was raised around here (since I use hoppers and pump wagons, and one of my opponent likes his spawns a bit too much for my taste :p), and we did find something regarding this issue.

theunwantedbeing
17-01-2010, 00:35
Why do people call it the abomb, btw?

Hell Pit Abomination. It rhymes.

Kalandros
17-01-2010, 04:01
Sigh, these types of threads are really boring to go through.

The Abomination may charge without need of line of sight BUT it must charge the arc it started in, it cannot clip through to a flank - this would make it a FAILED charge even with contact, thus stopping 1" away.

Read the rules including the FAQ, everything is in there, there is nothing to be confused about.

Also, even if the pivot makes contact with a different side and technically you cannot wheel to complete the charge, just put the damn model in front of the eagle and stop being so stuck up on some very oddball situations.

VC Billy
18-01-2010, 01:54
If a unit of skirmishers were to flee from it, would it then pivot slightly again to chase the skirmishers?

SimonL
18-01-2010, 02:23
Hell Pit Abomination. It rhymes.

Also its effects upon many units are not dissimilar to that of an atomic bomb...

xragg
18-01-2010, 02:26
There is still nothing that says they are allowed to charge without LoS.
Well, ok, it does say "if it makes contact, it counts as a charge" but then, you are not allowed to charge what you can't see...



Where is this in the rulebook?

chaospantz
18-01-2010, 11:05
With the rules as writen first thing you do is pick a direction you want to move and face the Abomb that direction. Then you roll the 3D6 and move that many inches. If you make combat with an enemy it counts as charging. With the rule writen this way the Abomb basicaly has a 360 line of sight when it comes to charges. It works the same for the Doomwheel and WoC spawn, you pick the direction, face that direction, then move the random movement. Only difference is that when you find that the Abomb is going far enough to count as charging you can make the normal charge reactions(flee, stand and shoot, or hold). Makes the Abomb way undercosted since it is only 10pts more than a WoC giant and close to twice as good. In the case you were talking about with the eagle best you can hope for is that by sacraficing the cheap eagle it will delay the Abomb for a turn letting you shoot it more.

VC Billy
18-01-2010, 14:44
So if a skirmishing unit is allowed to declare a flee reaction and it's flee path takes it another direction than the Abomb was originally traveling will it pivot again per the charging after fleeing skirmishers rules, or does it continue through as if the skirmishers weren't ever there?

Secondly, when does it count as charging. After the dice are rolled and it becomes obvious that it's movement will result in a charge, or when it actually makes contact?

xragg
18-01-2010, 18:14
Secondly, when does it count as charging. After the dice are rolled and it becomes obvious that it's movement will result in a charge, or when it actually makes contact?

As soon as its obvious the movement will result in a charge, but before you actually move it. The defender is allowed to make normal charge reactions.


So if a skirmishing unit is allowed to declare a flee reaction and it's flee path takes it another direction than the Abomb was originally traveling will it pivot again per the charging after fleeing skirmishers rules, or does it continue through as if the skirmishers weren't ever there?

I dont see where it has rules that it doesnt try to catch fleeing enemies and use the enemy in the way rules. You pick a direction that it is to move, but once it is considered charging, it is obligated to attempt to catch its prey. I am not 100% certain on this, but I dont see where they dont follow these rules.


Sidenote @chaospantz: Spawns have similar rules, but a doomwheel doesnt. The doomwheel doesnt have you pick a direction that you must move a random distance in or a "counts as charging" if you come into contact clause.

VC Billy
18-01-2010, 18:18
As soon as its obvious the movement will result in a charge, but before you actually move it. The defender is allowed to make normal charge reactions.



I dont see where it has rules that it doesnt try to catch fleeing enemies and use the enemy in the way rules. You pick a direction that it is to move, but once it is considered charging, it is obligated to attempt to catch its prey. I am not 100% certain on this, but I dont see where they dont follow these rules.

I 100% agree