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Malorian
03-01-2010, 07:52
Question: When do frenzied units charge?


It was always my understanding that they charge in the compulsory phase, before regular charges.

I this right or do they charge at the same time as everything else?

Nurgling Chieftain
03-01-2010, 07:59
They charge in the normal order. Interestingly, this is typically declaration order, which means they usually charge last.

Malorian
03-01-2010, 08:23
Yikes!!!

Well I guess I've been playing that wrong for like 6 years... :(

nosferatu1001
03-01-2010, 08:30
Frenzied units declare charges after all other charges have been declared, but still in declare charges. There is then nothing which states they charge in a different subphase to everyone else, so they follow the usual rules.

As NC said, they usually end up going last, which seems odd for frothing maniacs...

Witchblade
03-01-2010, 19:05
It was always my understanding that they charge in the compulsory phase, before regular charges.

If this was the case, it would be impossible to charge from behind a frenzy screen.

Nurgling is correct.

Tambarskjelve
04-01-2010, 13:33
But there is nothing preventing you from declaring a charge with them first. It is only when you don't declare a charge, and find out they are within range, that you must declare a charge with them, which then is declared and moved last.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-01-2010, 17:17
But there is nothing preventing you from declaring a charge with them first.While you can certainly declare frenzied charges first, "...after the charges of all non-Frenzied troops have been declared..." means that if you do, you can't then declare any non-Frenzied charges! So, no, you really can't.

Malorian
04-01-2010, 17:46
While you can certainly declare frenzied charges first, "...after the charges of all non-Frenzied troops have been declared..." means that if you do, you can't then declare any non-Frenzied charges! So, no, you really can't.

More and more I'm starting to think I should stop buying rule books and just hire Nurgling Chieftain to educate my sorry ass each time one comes out :p:D

MFWalter
04-01-2010, 18:12
I know I'm here and this is my first post and all, but I I'm not sure if the interpertation that Frenzy CANNOT declare charges until after all else is correct.

The rulebook (on page 52) says that:
"after the charges of all non-Frenzied troops have been declared (including relative charge reactions), measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any Frenzied troops (ie, within the unit's charge move and in their normal arc of sight). If so, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against that enemy. The player has no choice in the matter;"

It doesn't say you lose the option to declare charges with frenzied troops, just that regardless what you want your troops will charge, if they can. The order that you can't measure the auto-charge of Frenzied is simply a matter of GW doing their best to avoid pre-measuring, in my opinion (which I understand is the new voice and carries little weight).

Nurgling Chieftain
04-01-2010, 20:01
While it may be true that the enforced order is merely there to prevent de-facto pre-measuring (after all, "guess" weapons have a similar enforced order for a similar reason), it is nonetheless a rule.

WLBjork
04-01-2010, 20:05
Warhammer Q&A part one, first question under psychology:

Frenzied units *must* wait until after non-frenzied units in order to declare their charges.

Agnar the Howler
04-01-2010, 21:59
That's what doesn't seem logical to me, "We're bloodthirsty warriors with a lust for fighting and violence! But out of pure courtesy, we'll wait till all you guys decide which enemies you want to charge at before us warmongers do. See, we're not all that bad ^_^"

The Red Scourge
04-01-2010, 22:28
Its a question of manners and good breeding.

Another example of the decadence of the high elves, how they always insist on going first ;)

Agnar the Howler
05-01-2010, 00:40
Its a question of manners and good breeding.

Another example of the decadence of the high elves, how they always insist on going first ;)

Good breeding being ask if anyone else wants a go before you, with the pair who end up repeating "No, you first." being the ones that are selected?

soots
05-01-2010, 02:13
Just wondering if you have to declare all units that are frenzied?

The rules state

"measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any Frenzied troops"

keyword being "ANY"

jaxom
05-01-2010, 03:04
What exactly do you mean, soots?

Any frenzied unit which finds an enemy unit within charge reach must charge. It charges as normal by declaring a charge and then moving in the appropriate portion of the turn. If you have more than one frenzied unit, each one measures and charges independently (in whatever order the owning player chooses).

This is the only option which follows the rules of normal charges which say that it is actually illegal to declare a charge which has no chance of success. Since you have the advantage of measuring in advance, you know exactly which units can charge (and therefore must) and which cannot.

Lord Dan
05-01-2010, 03:44
That's what doesn't seem logical to me, "We're bloodthirsty warriors with a lust for fighting and violence! But out of pure courtesy, we'll wait till all you guys decide which enemies you want to charge at before us warmongers do. See, we're not all that bad ^_^"

It's not an issue of manners. It's an issue of "Hey, I just measured and found that you're 12 inches away from me. As my charge of 14 reaches, they will declare a charge. Consequently the non-frenzied unit next to them must also be in range, and they will also be declaring a charge..."

Necromancy Black
05-01-2010, 03:47
Exactly. It's a matter of games mechanics and balance.

The fact that they are not allowed to declare a charge without measuring is to ensure that if something is in range they will charge and reach it, and not have a player declare a charge he thinks might just be out of range and thus keep that unit out of a combat he doesn't want them in.

soots
05-01-2010, 03:55
What exactly do you mean, soots?



Im talking in regards to my opponent telling me he has frenzied troops.

e.g. Chaos army with a unit with a banner of Rage.

Normal rules says you dont have to reveal your magic items. But does he have to reveal that his unit is frenzied so i can force him to make the relevant tests.

What if I run some fast cavalry infront of him. He can just pretend his unit isnt frenzied, then drop the rules on me when hes in combat and gets the extra attacks.

Lord Dan
05-01-2010, 05:34
Im talking in regards to my opponent telling me he has frenzied troops.

e.g. Chaos army with a unit with a banner of Rage.

Normal rules says you dont have to reveal your magic items. But does he have to reveal that his unit is frenzied so i can force him to make the relevant tests.

What if I run some fast cavalry infront of him. He can just pretend his unit isnt frenzied, then drop the rules on me when hes in combat and gets the extra attacks.

The only "relevant test" is measuring to see if you have to charge. If your opponent is not doing that he's lying to you, and you have a bigger problem on your hands. This is no different from items that cause stupidity that oblige your opponent to remember to test at the beginning of each of his turns.

soots
05-01-2010, 05:49
The only "relevant test" is measuring to see if you have to charge. If your opponent is not doing that he's lying to you, and you have a bigger problem on your hands. This is no different from items that cause stupidity that oblige your opponent to remember to test at the beginning of each of his turns.

So you are saying he doesnt have to tell me and i have to trust him or in this case - hope he knows the disadvantages of frenzying troops and takes the correct tests.

Lord Dan
05-01-2010, 05:55
So you are saying he doesnt have to tell me and i have to trust him or in this case - hope he knows the disadvantages of frenzying troops and takes the correct tests.

It's a magic item. He doesn't have to reveal the magic item until its effects become relevant:

"I'm checking to see if they're in charge range due to the frenzy given to them by the banner of rage."

He does NOT have to say:

"This unit has the banner of rage. Make sure I measure to see if they have to charge all game."

Like all magic items it's up to him to remember their various effects in the game, and to notify you when they might affect you. Also, you've made mention twice now about the various tests you have to take in connection to frenzy. There are no tests taken with frenzy.

If you can't trust your opponent you shouldn't be playing him at all.

soots
05-01-2010, 06:16
If you can't trust your opponent you shouldn't be playing him at all.


I trust him to play to the rules. I dont trust him to know all the rules. He has been out of action for a few years.

Condottiere
05-01-2010, 07:11
Regarding frenzy, declaring, measuring and moving, while you have to measure for that unit at the end of that sub-phase, you could always move the frenzied unit first before the other units that declared charges that turn.

Necromancy Black
05-01-2010, 07:33
you could always move the frenzied unit first before the other units that declared charges that turn.

No, because the rules clearly state you move chargers in the order in which the chargers were declared (expection being 2 or more units charging the same unit, at which point they would all move when time comes to move the first of those units)

Adran
05-01-2010, 09:06
Anyone who has a frenzied unit should measure each movement phase to check that there is nothing in range. When its obvious that there isn't, I generally just drop a tape measure near by, and go "no charge". But after their first movement phase you should know which units are frenzied nut jobs.

nosferatu1001
05-01-2010, 12:21
Yes as mentioned above Frenzied troops have to measure every movement phase, so after the first turn every unit that is frenzied must be known.

Necro Black - I thought it was only when you charge the same unit in the same facing that it is simultaneous? This is to help make maximising work in a sensible manner.

Da GoBBo
05-01-2010, 12:22
It's a magic item. He doesn't have to reveal the magic item until its effects become relevant.

I'd prefer the phrase "until the item takes effect". The unit becomes frenzied ones the game starts, so in my opinion the banner must be revealed right from the start.

Necromancy Black
05-01-2010, 12:36
Necro Black - I thought it was only when you charge the same unit in the same facing that it is simultaneous? This is to help make maximising work in a sensible manner.

Not 100% sure. Doesn't it say in an FAQ that you don't do it simultaneous only when the unit being charged are skirmishers, because that have no flank or rear until one unit chargers them?

nosferatu1001
05-01-2010, 13:26
I thought it was the same facing, otherwise maximising the first models incontact will normally lead to the frontage being covered, making the second one a failed charge.

jaxom
05-01-2010, 14:04
I trust him to play to the rules. I dont trust him to know all the rules. He has been out of action for a few years.

My attitude about that is to note that the unit is frenzied when it is placed on the table. I don't say why, I just tell my opponent that it is frenzied. The same goes for a unit that is stupid (e.g. Helm of Many Eyes or Hide of the Cold One from the Lizardman book).

If he's bad about remembering, then remind him that he has to check every turn a few times and then tell him that if he brings the banner (or the helm which is often forgotten as well) that he has to tell you so that you can help remember that the unit has to check something. I mean... I assume you all are playing friendlies. Be friendly about it.

Tolinwiz
05-01-2010, 14:53
Necro - pretty sure all charges declared at the same target in the same frontage are moved at the same time to avoid failed charges via the first unit being moved in, then the 2nd (which would hit the back of the first unit).

stripsteak
05-01-2010, 17:57
re-charging:

ranked unit - only same facing charges are moved at once. ie 2 units in the front charge in first than the 2 units in the side charge in together.

skirmishers - units charge in declared order (since you have no facing to join them together) until a successful charge. once a successful charge happens, the skirmishers now have facings, all remaining chargers move like they would against a ranked unit.

Grimgormx
05-01-2010, 19:57
first question: can a non frenzied character join a frenzied unit?

Second: If I can join a non frenzied character in a frenzied unit, can I declare a charge with the character alone? if yes, then what happens with the frenzied unit? are they abble to charge if in range?

Malorian
05-01-2010, 20:00
first question: can a non frenzied character join a frenzied unit?

Second: If I can join a non frenzied character in a frenzied unit, can I declare a charge with the character alone? if yes, then what happens with the frenzied unit? are they abble to charge if in range?

1. Yes

2. Not sure on this one... before I was corrected on this thread I would say no, but now I'm thinking that since his charge is declared first and the unit can't make a different charge that they would not charge.

Nurgling Chieftain
05-01-2010, 23:36
A character cannot charge out of an otherwise charging unit.

Grimgormx
06-01-2010, 00:33
then if the character declares a charge, and the unit has to charge the characters charges is nullified and he has to charge with the unit, but if the unit isnt in charge range (because of its manuvering) then the character is abble to charge?

This could become a very important and tactical situation.

If I have more than 2 characters in the unit can I declare a charge with each of them? or just 1?

Nurgling Chieftain
06-01-2010, 00:47
The exact timing issues are technically unresolveable as I understand it, but that all seems reasonable to me.

Da GoBBo
06-01-2010, 07:16
Im with Malorian on this one. Though very unsportsmanlike, nothing prohibits the character from declaring a charge along with all other non-frenzied charges. The frenzied units oppertunity to declare a charge has now been forfeited. Non frenzied chacters have to charge along units that charge due to frenzy, but I think you never get to that part.

Awesome strategy btw, but i think it wil raise some eyebrows to say the least.

Nurgling Chieftain
06-01-2010, 08:16
...nothing prohibits the character from declaring a charge along with all other non-frenzied charges.No, that's absolutely prohibited; he cannot declare a charge out of the unit until the unit has declined to charge this turn. So, he has to declare his charge-out after the frenzy check is made. (Since he's technically in a frenzied unit at the time, he's actually free to do this, unlike non-frenzied units, which cannot wait to declare charges after frenzied units.)

Lord Dan
06-01-2010, 09:12
No, that's absolutely prohibited; he cannot declare a charge out of the unit until the unit has declined to charge this turn. So, he has to declare his charge-out after the frenzy check is made. (Since he's technically in a frenzied unit at the time, he's actually free to do this, unlike non-frenzied units, which cannot wait to declare charges after frenzied units.)

So what if the character is also frenzied? For instance:

Exhalted hero w/ MoK on steed in a unit of warriors with the MoK. Two enemy units in front of them, one is 6" away and the other is 12" away. The Exhalted has the choice between charging both units (as both are valid charges), however if he chose the unit 12" away it would prevent the warriors from charging the unit 6" away.

Though highly situational, would this prevent a frenzied unit from being forced to charge?

Adran
06-01-2010, 10:08
I disagree with Nurgling Chieftain
I believe it goes -
Non frenzied character declares a charge.
Frenzied unit checks if it must declare a charge. If it charges, then the character must charge with it, even if he had declared a charge against a different unit.
If it doesn't charge, he then charges out of the unit.

I think if the frenzied unit is able to declare a charge then it must do so, and characters are not allowed to leave a charging unit, so they are forced to go along with it, even if they wanted to charge something else, so Lord Dans way wouldn't work.

Da Crusha
06-01-2010, 10:26
I agree with adran all the way, ive been playing a MoK warrior army lately and the rules are rather fresh with me. I believe there are only 2 pages in the brb discussing what frenzied troops are capable of... and they go over this.

Nurgling Chieftain
06-01-2010, 17:30
Exhalted hero w/ MoK on steed in a unit of warriors with the MoK. Two enemy units in front of them, one is 6" away and the other is 12" away. The Exhalted has the choice between charging both units (as both are valid charges), however if he chose the unit 12" away it would prevent the warriors from charging the unit 6" away.The character cannot declare a charge unless his unit is not charging this turn. In a frenzied unit, this effectively means he has to either declare his charge after the unit does not charge, or his charge is canceled. This does not work in reverse; the unit is not prevented from charging by the character charging out of it (as opposed to the character being prevented from charging out by the unit charging).


I disagree with Nurgling Chieftain
I believe it goes -
Non frenzied character declares a charge.
Frenzied unit checks if it must declare a charge. If it charges, then the character must charge with it, even if he had declared a charge against a different unit.
If it doesn't charge, he then charges out of the unit.I really don't have a problem with that interpretation, as I said earlier, it's just not quite as technically correct IMO. The important characteristic is that the character cannot charge if the unit does, and not vice-versa. The exact timing of when the character can declare that charge is a bit unclear, but whatever.

warlord hack'a
07-01-2010, 22:55
Both Nurgling Chieftan and Adran are correct, but you do have to combine the BRB and the 1st FAQ to get to the correct order of things:

FAQ 1: PSYCHOLOGY
Q. Can Frenzied units declare charges as normal, or
must they wait and exclusively use the rules for
charging found on page 52?
A. They must wait for all the non-frenzied units to have
declared charges (including reactions).

BRB (almost literal): if a unit does not declare a charge then the character inside the unit may declare a charge of his own.

BRB (almost literal): after the charges of all normal troops have been declared measure to see if there are any enemy units in charge reach of your frenzied troops

So we have a problem. Without the last quote of the three the order of things could be:
1) normal units declare charges (frenzied troops are NOT allowed to declare a normal charge, see FAQ above and page 52 BRB.
2) charged enemies declare charge reactions
3) frenzied units (including frenzied characters inside units (frenzied or not)) measure to see if enemy in charge reach, if enemy in reach then they declare a charge against this unit (BRB, rules for frenzy)
4) enemy units that are charged by frenzied units can now declare charge reactions or change their previously declared charge reactions if they are also charged by non-frenzied units (again BRB)
5) non frenzied characters in frenzied units can now declare charges. Though this is not written so specifically in the rules it is the simple conclusion of the two first rules I quoted above. Characters are only allowed to declare charges of their own if the unit they are with is not declaring a charge. Since frenzied units only declare after normal units, buit they still declare, then it follows that non frenzied characters in frenzied units declare after the frenzied units have declared (and thus measured!). VERY strange as this means you know if the character will reach the enemy on beforehand.

Now comes the third quote however and this contradicts my point 5 above as frenzied units can only declare after all normal units (non frenzied characters inside frenzied units included) have declared, so the character cannot declare after the frenzied troops measured.

So I see three ways you can argue what to do with non frenzied characters inside frenzied units:
1) these characters are never allowed to charge out of the unit as their declaraction should come after the frenzied unit but this is not allowed as frenzied units declare after normal units. I think this is not the way to go.
2) follow steps 1-5 above and allow non frenzied characters inside frenzied units to declare after frenzied troops have measured. I am not in favor of this option either as you get to measure before you declare with the character.
3) have non frenzied characters inside frenzied units declare together with other non frenzied troops and then when the frenzied unit measures and has to charge the character cancels his charge and charges with the unit. This seems the way to go for me and this is how I play it.

Agnar the Howler
07-01-2010, 23:43
It's not an issue of manners. It's an issue of "Hey, I just measured and found that you're 12 inches away from me. As my charge of 14 reaches, they will declare a charge. Consequently the non-frenzied unit next to them must also be in range, and they will also be declaring a charge..."

I was joking?...