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perrin23860
03-01-2010, 20:56
So I have been searching for a couple hours now, and can't find a definite answer anywhere.

Here are my questions.

If a model has magical attacks, does it have to have a magical weapon by default?

Reasons it might matter would include vaul's unmaking, law of gold, obsidian armor, with a few others...

These are my points;

Grail knights have magical "attacks" but mundane weapons

Banshees have magical "attacks" and supposedly have a hand weapon...

Wights have magical "attacks" and specifically have a weapon with different qualities...

There's at least one magic banner that grants "magical attacks". If this turns mundane weapons into magical ones, would they lose their qualities as mundane weapons, or not?

A magic weapon doesn't necessarily have to emit magical attacks - (3 wood elf bows and Lifetaker, DE ranged weapon).

Therefore, inverse logic would tell me that a mundane weapon doesn't necessarily have to emit mundane "attacks"

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So lets look at attacks. attacks can come from multiple sources, not just weapons, as defined in the brb. Attacks also can come from spells, special abilities, falling giants, the list goes on and on...

So if a weapon emits a magical attack, does it necessarily have to be a magical weapon?

Not trying to stir up controversy, just looking for lucid debate...

Kalandros
03-01-2010, 21:38
No.

Things with MAgic Attacks simply have Magic Attacks.
Magic Weapons deal Magic Attacks as well but can be negated by Vaul's, Law of gold, etc.

Anything that simply has 'magic attacks' will not be affected by those things.
Grave Guards deal Magic Attacks regardless of which weapon they hold.

By the rules, no, a MAgic Attack does not mean that it is a MAgic Weapon.

Condottiere
03-01-2010, 21:51
I see integral magic attacks as an internal matter, and attacks due to magic weapons as external; these magic spells can only effect external paraphernalia.

Ultimate Life Form
03-01-2010, 22:26
The models you listed have 'mundane' weapons that deal magic attacks, for some reason. It's a bit hard to understand but ruleswise a Hand Weapon is a Hand Weapon and nothing else, even if the bearer deals magic damage. This added quality is probably thought to be the model's personal trait, not the weapon's. It is worth noting that weapons deal either mundane damage or magic damage, but never both (regarding your banner question). I don't know the wording of the Wood Elf bows and Lifetaker you mentioned, but are you sure they don't deal magic damage? Cuz Magic Weapons are assumed to always deal magic damage, even if it's ranged (or so I thought).

Necromancy Black
04-01-2010, 01:17
I don't know the wording of the Wood Elf bows and Lifetaker you mentioned, but are you sure they don't deal magic damage? Cuz Magic Weapons are assumed to always deal magic damage, even if it's ranged (or so I thought).

The Wood Elf books basically says that the arrows being shot by magic bows arn't magical so the attacks are not magical. You can, however, by magical arrows to solve this.

The Lifetaker was FAQ'd to say it doesn't do magic attacks for the same reason above (the bolts arn't magical).

The one ranged magic weapon that got around this was the Lizardmen item that shoots bolts of energy, so it was FAQ'd to say it did do magic attacks.

All in all it's horrible, horrible stuff.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-01-2010, 01:21
GW is badly inconsistent when it comes to magic ranged weapons. For wood elves, magic arrows grant magic attacks, but magic bows do not. Lifetaker does not. The staff of light does. All of those are FAQ entries, rather than being in their respective army books!

If we start including entries explicit in the army books, the dragon bow fires magical attacks.

The High Elf magic bows as far as I know have no direct answer to this question.

Ultimate Life Form
04-01-2010, 01:40
The staff of light does.

Ah, yes, I remember this. It was this 'Hmm... we think it sounds pretty magical so mmmmmmm... *throws dart at board* yes, it's magical' answer. :D

Yes, veeeery convincing, GW. I know third world countries that have a law system that's better than these rules.

(I fail to see anything magical about a laser beam anyway, unless my CD player is a magical artifact of the Old Ones).

Urgat
04-01-2010, 02:13
If you're baffled at it fluff-wise, just think of the creature itself being the magical source, it uses a normal weapon, but the creature's magic goes through it?

perrin23860
04-01-2010, 02:42
first we are to assume that it is not the weapons that attack, but the person holding the weapon?

examples;

demons attacks count as magical

grail knight's attacks count as magical

ethereals attacks count as magical

forest spirits' attacks count as magical

wight's attacks count as magical

etc...

these are all creatures that generate magical attacks. it would seem that "magical attack", (as some actually have mundane weapons, and some have no real hand weapons except hands and such), is not a part of the weapon, or fist, but rather something that is intrinsic to the creature's being in tune with the magical realm... :rolleyes:

then we have items that exude magical attacks, like the anvil of doom, plague furnace, engine of the gods, warpstone, bound spells, spells themselves, magical weapons (unless otherwise specified), and more...

it seems obvious that magical weapons generate magical attacks, unless otherwise specified. (not in the rulebook, but implied).

therefore, its also reasonable to state that mundane weapons generate mundane attacks, unless specified otherwise. (again, not in the rulebook, but implied).



please let me be the first to say that there is many assumptions, in these statements. the problem is this is a hard topic to get a good grasp on, and there is grey area. its gw's fault for not simply defining some key gaming terms, and poor wording...

Condottiere
04-01-2010, 03:55
It is a grey area, but unless you have clear guidance, assumptions and precedents is all you have.

Lord Zarkov
04-01-2010, 12:51
therefore, its also reasonable to state that mundane weapons generate mundane attacks, unless specified otherwise. (again, not in the rulebook, but implied).

The 'unless otherwise specified' is the key though. Clearly in the case of all these creatures it is.

The Grave Guard used to have good wording regarding this (can't remember if it's the same now though). Basically any mundane weapon they held became a magic weapon (with killing blow) by virtue of them holding it. Therefore if it did get unenchanted it'd immediately get re-enchanted by virtue of the wight holding it (as it'd be a mundane weapon it possesses).

I think the best way to treat such units is like this; but, although their mundane weapons become magic weapons, they shouldn't necessarily count as 'Magic Items' (tm) for things that affect things other than magic weapons. (since they haven't be chosen from the magic item lists and to stop abuse on 'owner choses' spells).