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View Full Version : Read up on VC, need a bit more help



Drifter00
03-01-2010, 22:00
So i've read around forums about the VC, which im planning on starting soon. I haven't played that much fantasy (mainly 40k player but wanting to do more fantasy lately). My only fantasy army is high elves which i have about 2k points of and i've played a number of games with them but now that I understand fantasy more and have experience playing they don't appeal to me as an army as much as VC do.

So anyways I understand the basics about VC, magic/combat builds for vamps/vamplords (planning on doing magic heavy list, 11PD in 2250). My lord is gonna be lvl 3 wizard, MotBA, Dark Acolyte, LotD, Helm of Commandment likely. I understand about rez'ing units and just winning combat through sheer numbers, banners, flanks, etc. rather than actual killing of models.

A bit of help I need is on this:
-I want to go all skeles for my minimum core units, is this good idea or should I use ghouls instead, i've read ghouls are better than skeles.
-Is the varghulf a useful model? I've read mixed opinions about it but most say he is extremely useful as a terror causing, vampire, combat beast.
-I want to use the black coach, especially since I'm going magic heavy. I haven't read much about this unit and am wondering if people have found it useful? It seems that if it can absorb enough magic dice it gets absolutely ridiculous.
-Is a BSB with drakenhof banner in a unit of grave guard supported by helm of commandment worth the points investment? I understand this unit can be beast but im questioning whether the points could be better spent elsewhere as it's quite points intensive.
-Any other useful tips you can think of?

Thanks for any help or correcting of my understanding of VC so far you may give me.

Stronginthearm
03-01-2010, 23:21
Skellies over ghouls can go either way, IMO just go with the model you like better, they do about equally well overall, skellies give challenge protection but ghouls are t4 etc...

I personally like the varghulf as a fire-and-forget weapon against war machines or archers, they also are great fun for supporting a skelliton combat, dont expect great things out of it against tooled up combat forces but it can do fun things agaisnt weak units

Haven,'t used the black coach dont know anything about it

GG deathstars are nasty and hard to kill, they do however have the problem you mentioned of being a point sink, if you want a reliable heavy infantry unit take 20 GG with banner of the barrows, its cheaper and doesnt require a BSB, with helm of command they'll be hitting on a 2+ and then you still have points to spend in other areas

Drifter00
04-01-2010, 23:06
Thanks, has anyone else used the black coach and can tell me how it has performed?

LaurentleBete
04-01-2010, 23:14
To me the Black Coach has always seemed like a bit of a random unit. It's a nice accessory if you can afford the points, but I wouldn't rely on it for my battle plan.

IMO, the Varghulf is a star player, never leave without it. It just has too many uses to not bring against any army, from hunting warmachines and lone wizards to flanking units and throwing it's weight around to neutralizing skirmishers and fast cav. It can deal with a lot of the things that normally would give me a bad headache.

GG Deathstars may win you battles, but they won't win you friends. It's a nasty build, and I for one would really think twice before fielding it.

I run entire skeleton armies, they're very much on par with ghouls. Sure, ghouls have a better statline, but skeletons can take a full command and a magic banner, and I'd much rather have the extra SCR then a higher toughness and a few extra attacks. I've found that the Skeletons 4+ save in CC against t3 is often enough to counterbalance the t4 and lack of armour of the ghouls anyway.

Ultimate Life Form
04-01-2010, 23:29
-I want to go all skeles for my minimum core units, is this good idea or should I use ghouls instead, i've read ghouls are better than skeles.

Skeletons or Ghouls. Both have their uses, both have their merits. None is better than the other, it's purely situational. Go ahead and do Skels (as I do), though a mixed army would probably more versatile.

-Is the varghulf a useful model? I've read mixed opinions about it but most say he is extremely useful as a terror causing, vampire, combat beast.
-I want to use the black coach, especially since I'm going magic heavy. I haven't read much about this unit and am wondering if people have found it useful? It seems that if it can absorb enough magic dice it gets absolutely ridiculous.

The general consensus seems to be that all Rare Choices are equally good but situational. What can be a gamewinner in one match (Cairn Wraith) can be useless in another (vs Daemons because of magical attacks). Likewise, the Black Coach can be scary against the right opponents but if you face cannons expect it to be blown to smithereens. The Varghulf is not as scary as it looks but I find it is a solid flanker/war machine hunter. It is very dangerous because of its insane movement interacts extremely well with Dire Wolves and can wipe out small archer units on its own.

-Is a BSB with drakenhof banner in a unit of grave guard supported by helm of commandment worth the points investment? I understand this unit can be beast but im questioning whether the points could be better spent elsewhere as it's quite points intensive.

Sounds absolutely evil, though I have yet to see it in action.

-Any other useful tips you can think of?

Give the General as much protection as possible. Sounds obvious? Well, but this is the most important advice for a VC player. The rest is really up to your playstyle and imagination.

LKHERO
05-01-2010, 00:40
OK so here's a couple of other questions:
Min core or big blocks for Skeletons and Ghouls?
How does the Skeletons offer challenge protection? Ghouls can do the same with a Ghast.

The bigger blocks are better because they don't get wiped out.

Gokamok
05-01-2010, 01:46
I'll just drop a bunch of random thoughts:

Ghouls vs. Skellies:
Skellies look cooler, and are slightly more versatile than Ghouls (due to magic banners and the option to take spears), but I've found that in the current metagame, Ghouls are the better option because T4 makes them the better choice against DE, DoC and LM, which are the three armies VC tend to struggle against.

Unit Starting Size (USS):
USS affects your magic phase and general game plan in several ways; If you start with small units you'll be committed to casting nothing but IoN in your first 2-3 magic phases, AND you'll likely be committed to bringing a magic heavy army as well. You do however free up some points for more of the funs tuff in the army book, and I often ditch a few models from my core units in order to grab some extra Wolves/Bats or an extra Wraith.
Starting with larger units allows you a higher degree of versatility in your magic phase, since it isn't an absolute priority to raise your units right away, meaning that you can spend power dice on more aggressive spells such as Gaze of Nagash or Wind of Undeath while moving towards your enemy.
I think that Ghouls/Skellies should start at around 12-15 models per unit for optimum efficiency, since it allows you a bit of choice in your spellcasting while still freeing up a few points for more support units.

Varghulf/Black Coach:
The Varghulf is in my humble opinion the best rare choice available to VC. Sure, 5 Wraiths can kill 2k worth of Empire or O&G on their own, but they lose a lot of usefulness against DoC and LM (Engine of the Gods and a Slann = bad day for Wraiths;)), and I generally find that I don't need them to beat the armies where they're most useful.
The Varghulf shines in being fast, resilient, independent, allowing other units to march, and not having any obvious weaknesses (apart from flaming attacks of course). Varghulfs can reliably beat any light/medium cavalry unit in the game, as well as most non-elite heavy cavalry. It's also great for hunting missile troops and mages, as well as tying up relatively small units of ranked infantry.

I personally think that the Black Coach is a tad overpriced at 200 points; you need to keep it near your casters in order to power it up properly, and even then you're dependent on luck in order to get it working. On top of this, there WILL be times where you really, really need to get that spell through, and then the Coach decides to take 4 of your generals dice. In my opinion, it's a random unit in an absolutely non-random army, and as such doesn't bring enough benefit for the points.

Drakenhof Banner:
I think this is the single most overrated magic item in Warhammer at the moment. Yes, Grave Guard with regeneration are very hard to kill, but again, the armies we struggle against have some very effective tools for dealing with regeneration, namely Tzeentch magic, Flaming Bloodthirsters and Hydras. In my experience, 18 GG with Shields and +1 to hit banner are plenty scary and resilient on their own, so no reason to pour more points into such a unit.

Useful tip:
A unit of 7 Dire Wolves (one of which is a Doom Wolf) is extremely useful. You can charge a Greater Deamon or the like in your own turn, issue a challenge, and guarantee that you will end up with at least 1 wolf, thereby preventing the big nasty from moving in its own turn, while you move a huge block of Zombies in to charge it:D