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Foegnasher
06-01-2010, 04:31
he has decided on empire. he loves guns, what can i say?

he got a steamtank last fall (i won it at a tournament), and recieved 10 handgunners (assembled) and 5 pistoliers (still on sprue) for xmas.

he says he's ready to play small games, and i am inclined to agree, he has about $40 in xmas cash... and he wants to buy models with it. NOT VIDEO GAMES. he must really be ready.

i want the boy to eventually learn tactics, because right now he is at his formative stages, we just want to have fun and smash our models together...

so help me. i tried my hand at empire but sucked, and ditched the army 2 years ago (kicking myself now) so what units should i get for my boy, escalation league like. i have a buddy who will sell me stuff cheapish, and i am hopeing to get some swordsmen and a couple characters with the boy's money.

what all should we put in this list (for all comers, obviously) and how do we kit out the pistoliers? musician, obviously, but is the outrider/repeater pistol worth it?

ChaosVC
06-01-2010, 04:51
If your kid wants to start empire, show him the book and let him chose what he likes rule wise and model wise. Then go easy on him with his first game and advise and teach him slowly as he progress.

I am assuming you like to paint because its a big part of the hobby and hope that your kid would eventually learn to love it too.

snurl
06-01-2010, 05:19
Yep, buy the book first.
A unit of knights would not be a bad choice either.

Briohmar
06-01-2010, 05:24
I am assuming you like to paint because its a big part of the hobby and hope that your kid would eventually learn to love it too.

Are you kidding? I take it you haven't seen pics of Foegnasher's skaven horde :D

As for the army, he will need a second core choice to start, I'd recommend a soldiers of the Empire regiment, done as swordsmen, and a character (the wizards box is awesome, so many options.) That gets him to the 500 plus mark (probably closer to 750 with the tank). You'll want a cannon next, and a second character, maybe a Warrior priest, and a box of militia for a 10 man detachment, et voila, 1000 points.

ChaosVC
06-01-2010, 08:06
No wonder I find his avatar a little too familiar, must me my short term memory.

The Red Scourge
06-01-2010, 09:11
Kit the pistoliers with musician and champ with repeater pistol, that +1 to BS on the champ goes a long way.

Do a search on TVI. A good concept for the empire that will also appeal to the master of hordes in you - basically big infantry regiments reliant on the detachment countercharge rules and vanilla knights for bait.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
06-01-2010, 10:11
Knights are a must IMO, but by no means should he try to go knight-heavy. I've used an Empire army that I own several times (like 3 or 4 times total?), and I found the detachment rules to be pretty awesome, and very under-used. As far as I can see, the only army they tend to NOT work well against are HElfs, due to the ASF rule, which negates the idea of the counter-charge.

Matt1982
06-01-2010, 11:56
I've only played each of the Empire guys at my local store once, I wasn't massively impressed with the infantry blocks which weren't using detachments so got flanked and run down easily. If played well though I can see how they could be a lot more effective but they seem expensive for what they achieve.

The real prize units were the flagellants and outriders. Flags had a warrior priest with them and after martyring a few were rerolling hits(WP's hatred) and wounds(martyr) they actually mutilated one of my beast herds with a wargor in it. Outriders were a massive thorn in the side against my no missile/magic army, very hard to catch with their fast cav rule and slowed and shot up a lot before I could corner them. Against something with shooting however I think they'd of popped a lot sooner.

Both armies had a Helblaster however and while they're terrific for putting the fear of god into an opponent, when they actually fired it was fairly underwhelming. Both misfired, one managed to kill 2 warhounds before jamming and being killed by hounds the next turn, the other at least killed 1 minotaur but then exploded. That's only annecdotal though and I imagine there's probably been times when they've wiped out entire units but the addition of roll to hit for this weapon and the Empire's average BS 3 combined with most targets being at long range so hitting on 5's has meant I'm starting to lose my immediate dread on seeing it.

Condottiere
06-01-2010, 12:07
Why not encourage your son to proxy some models and try out various armies? Saves both money and frustration in the long run.

Thoras
06-01-2010, 12:58
Why not encourage your son to proxy some models and try out various armies? Saves both money and frustration in the long run.

Is the best advise imo.

Foegnasher
06-01-2010, 13:10
we have the book. he's seen lots of armies. he's played a few games, with my skaven and my lizards.

he says he wants empire.

i was thinking as we go,

swordsmen, captian, wizard, cannon, knights, priest, flaggelants, hellblaster.

sound good?

Gammalfarmor
06-01-2010, 13:31
some shooting should be good like crossbowmen or rifleguys.

Jind_Singh
06-01-2010, 16:11
Nah -= listen to the OP, the kids at a formative stage, they just want a little madness and fun to get his teeth into the game, without complicating matters. As he's a newbie the model count is also important as they need games which are quicker to play so they can learn the rules better.

To this end I personaly suggest the following:

1) Warrior Priest on horse, heavy armour, sheild, barded warhorse - 110 points.
(order the special character Luther Huss, as your son won't have enough 'spare parts' to kit-bash his own priest together, OR you can use a spare Knight and proxy him as one until you do have enough parts)
2) 5 Knights, full command - 155 pts
3) 10 Hand Gunners - 80pts
4) 5 Pistolliors, outrider champ, repeater pistol - 114pts (double check this, not sure as I dont have book at work)
5) Steam Tank - 300pts

This is around 759pts - now allow him to choose upto 40pts of magic items/magic standards to make an 800 point list

DONE!

You have covered

1) Movement phase as he learns to use the Knights (wheeling, etc), fast cav, and special items like steam tanks
2) Magic phase as he has warrior priest
3) Shooting phase from handgunners, pistoliers
4) COmbat as he has Knights and warrior priest
He also picks up on psychology as he learns how to use terror & hatred.

AND he actually has a really dirty 800 point list!!!

Make your list accordingly so you have something to fight him back with - some kind of beastie or war machine, some kind of combat unit, limit your magic to level 1 mage or level 2 mage so you dont shut each other down in magic - encourage him to take a bound item with his warrior priest so he can compete with you in magic, or he can stuff magic and go with war banner and a cheap magic weapon for the priest.
And when he has more money get him to buy the Empire Great Cannon - so now he gets to learn how to guess ranges - really important for a warhammer player, as he'll then be able to judge his charge distances, and what have you.

Thats pretty much it - hope this helps

Jind_Singh
06-01-2010, 16:17
And this way he's only spent $40 on a box of Knights as he has steam tank, pistoliers, hand gunners, the Knights box comes with 8 models so he can proxy 1 of them as a warrior priest, he could use the other 2 as captins, and he could attach a paper bannor with scotch tape to make a temporary banner, and he could use the actual std bearer knight model as a BSB - now he has a 1000 point army! As he gets more money down the road he can buy actual models, like the plastic heros box set that gives him a mounted character/one on foot, and he can kit bash the pieces with spare knight body to make another mounted character - so dont glue all the Knights together - leave 1 spare or 2 spare! They will come in really handy later to convert and kit-bash your own characters. Empire sprues are loaded with spare parts, it's so easy to make your own models up simply by replacing parts from one kit with another (kit-bashing) and it looks wicked! All 3 of my mounted warrior priests were made this way.

Jezzer
06-01-2010, 17:48
I have no other way but to agree with Jind :) still, to cover up some more of the magic phase, like choosing the lore, getting random spells and the impact of it when positioning a mage on the battlefield i would still suggest getting a wizard. with this he can get his list to 1000pts and as for more, it comes out to be a pretty neat list to start with :)

Griefbringer
06-01-2010, 17:59
If the knight box still comes with the White Wolf bits, you can actually build a decentish looking warrior priest out of it - though I prefer the goatee head from the militia box.

Jind_Singh
06-01-2010, 19:16
If the knight box still comes with the White Wolf bits, you can actually build a decentish looking warrior priest out of it - though I prefer the goatee head from the militia box.

Actually yeah, the box does come with the bits for Knights Panther, Reiksgaurd, and Knights of the White Wolf - so easy pesy to make a Warrior priest!

And double yeah, a battle wizard would further help to teach the wee lad the magic phase.

Good points Griefbringer!

Kayosiv
06-01-2010, 19:44
How old is your son?

O&G'sRule
06-01-2010, 19:57
we have the book. he's seen lots of armies. he's played a few games, with my skaven and my lizards.

he says he wants empire.

i was thinking as we go,

swordsmen, captian, wizard, cannon, knights, priest, flaggelants, hellblaster.

sound good?

Artillery is always a good idea for empire, lots of shooting, blocks of cheap infantry with militia detachments. I'm not sure what use a tar pit is against skaven so not sure about Flagellants against them, maybe for the abomination if you have one, but not really. Make the army he likes, he won't enjoy it otherwise

Foegnasher
06-01-2010, 20:49
How old is your son?

He's 9. He really let me hear it when his warp lighting cannon fried my oldblood on a carny in 1 shot. I've got to teach him not to talk so much smack. :D

Foegnasher
06-01-2010, 20:56
No wonder I find his avatar a little too familiar, must me my short term memory.

That's Jenner. From the move "the secret of nimh". I'm convinced that he was the prototype for the entire skaven race. Schemeing, ruthless, evil.

Kayosiv
06-01-2010, 20:57
It is my opinion (having no knowledge of the intellectual level of your son) that at age 9, the game is far, far too complex for him.

Now this does not mean that he will be unable to play, you can certainly teach him the rules, but at age 9 he is most likely incapable of sitting down and reading through hundreds of pages of rules, let alone comprehending them.

So, do not focus on the game, focus on the hobby. Reading the rules is an assignment, but reading the fluff can be fun. Get him some history/backstory of the empire to read. Have him name his characters, give them backstories, and make up a story for his army to follow. Try to get him modeling his own things and painting his own things. Teach him the importance of spending time on things, doing a good job, and that if he gets bored or tired of painting he can always come back later. No army was finished in one sitting.

That's pretty much my advice. Right now he is playing your game. The game consists of whatever you tell him to do, because I'm assuming he has not read the rules, just knows what you have taught him. If you want to keep him interested, make sure his army becomes a unique experience and project "to him." That's the way to keep him playing, is to focus on the things besides playing.


That's Jenner. From the move "the secret of nimh". I'm convinced that he was the prototype for the entire skaven race. Schemeing, ruthless, evil.

Plus he killed a Grey Seer. If only that foolish warlord hadn't BETRAYED HIM!

Foegnasher
06-01-2010, 22:23
It is my opinion (having no knowledge of the intellectual level of your son) that at age 9, the game is far, far too complex for him.

Now this does not mean that he will be unable to play, you can certainly teach him the rules, but at age 9 he is most likely incapable of sitting down and reading through hundreds of pages of rules, let alone comprehending them.

So, do not focus on the game, focus on the hobby. Reading the rules is an assignment, but reading the fluff can be fun. Get him some history/backstory of the empire to read. Have him name his characters, give them backstories, and make up a story for his army to follow. Try to get him modeling his own things and painting his own things. Teach him the importance of spending time on things, doing a good job, and that if he gets bored or tired of painting he can always come back later. No army was finished in one sitting.

That's pretty much my advice. Right now he is playing your game. The game consists of whatever you tell him to do, because I'm assuming he has not read the rules, just knows what you have taught him. If you want to keep him interested, make sure his army becomes a unique experience and project "to him." That's the way to keep him playing, is to focus on the things besides playing.


he seems to do ok with the rules. he's stil learning. i'm not about to take him up to the gamestore and let him play just anybody. i wnat him to learn ettiquette, sportsmanship and the rules before i do that.

Krom The Eternal
07-01-2010, 00:18
Wow i have trouble playing with my 13 year old brother the play games with me he loves warhammer he just likes the think of the models more like action figures lol

Briohmar
07-01-2010, 02:04
I've played some younger kids who did really well. One of them, Scott, used to come to the gaming store with his dad Emory every Wednesday while I was running the campaigns there. (I think they are both on Warseer, so if they read this, I said hi.) Scott even started playing in Bay area tournaments. He got a little frustrated as his Skaven lost a lot, but he hung in like a champ, and became a good player.

I've taught some other 10-12 year olds, including my own boy, who weren't nearly as attentive, but were still able to grasp the rules, and finish at least 1 game. If they really have an interest, 9+ age group shouldn't be excluded.

Condottiere
07-01-2010, 03:31
A cannon should be fun, plus he gets to develop his ability to estimate distances.

Briohmar
07-01-2010, 05:31
I'm sending him a mortar/cannon. The mortar will do wonders against the screaming furry horde. Just think how many skaven will die to a pieplate direct hit.

Foegnasher
07-01-2010, 13:02
I'm sending him a mortar/cannon. The mortar will do wonders against the screaming furry horde. Just think how many skaven will die to a pieplate direct hit.

oh, THANKS.

;)

seriously, appreciate it. Jake says thank you and "That's awesome!".

crazywhiteboydance
07-01-2010, 13:30
Wont go far wrong with flagellents & a warrior priest