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Hell's Angel
20-05-2005, 02:56
1 * Doombull
Mark of Tzeentch; General; Lore of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon; Heavy Armour
Blade of Blood
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Light Armour

1 Wargor (Minotaur Shaman)
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour
Cloven Hooves
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon

1 Wargor (Minotaur Shaman)
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour
Cloven Hooves
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon

1 Wargor (Minotaur Shaman)
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour
Cloven Hooves
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon

1 Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Chaos Undivided


1 Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Chaos Undivided


1 Chaos Giant
Mutant Monstrosity

1 Chaos Giant
Mutant Monstrosity

Casting Pool: 14

Dispel Pool: 6

Models in Army: 20


Total Army Cost: 2000

Know I know that there are not a lot of models in this list, and for the record, all the 'Wargors' will be converted Shaman Minotaurs. Powerful with magic, but slight of body (wound wise.) What do you think? A Strange list... I think it would either win hugely, of suffer greatly in defeat... All hail Tzeench? I have to make a decision before I paint these things... :rolleyes:

Selsaral
20-05-2005, 16:31
Wacky.

First, on your wargor/converted minotaurs...for them to be legal they have to have the correct base size, right? Wargors have 25 mm and minotaurs have 40 mm....

Second, did you consider having an army standard in there?

Third, you chose not to have any beast herds for fluff reasons? Because for tactical reasons I personally would use tons to screen my minotaurs with. They are so cheap....

Fourth, is there a reason you aren't taking a single dispell scroll?

And finally, those giants must really be effective for you to be using two. I've never used one, are they really that good?

Spider
20-05-2005, 17:30
Tzeench Beasts magic heavy lists can work...i used one a while ago and did very well indeed against a high elf army.

But you really need a lot of troops to back your leaders up with, Doombull's are good, but somewhat fragile (with no armour and the like).

Chariots are also good...but used in support of said troops.

I seems to me that most, if not all races could do ok against your list just by fielding a well balanced list...in particular empire and dwarves.

Fear the cannon. :)

Hell's Angel
20-05-2005, 20:14
What would be fun is watching someone use all their Dispel scrolls on the first turn... LOL I guess my battle plan would be to close ground as fast as possible and hope that my giants buy me enough time cannon wise. Also I guess that I HAVE to be sucessful in my magic phase to make anything happen.

Edit I guess it is good that I have a lot of Horror models from playing daemons all those years ago... lol
67 wounds in a 20 model army, that is hillarious... Should I take the goretooth with one of the 'minotaur shamans?' Is the spell worth it w/hatred?

RE Chaos Giant: It has 6 wounds, a high T and is Stubborn. It can effectively ignore difficult terrain, and doesnt care when smaller units break and run. Testing off 10 win or lose is huge IMO, and it has a 5+ save to offset those annoying arrows that find purchace. Yeah I think it is worth it... You NEVER want a Giant jumping on your units. They evaporate. They also make reaaly good cannon targets.

Hell's Angel
20-05-2005, 21:28
When does this theme become too silly... For example a 3000 point list looks like this.


1 Doombull
Mark of Tzeentch; General; Lore of Tzeentch; Great Weapon
retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon; Standard

1 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth @ 383 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Standard

1 * Wargor
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon
Cloven Hooves
Chaos Armour
Sword of Might
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception @ 178 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Standard

1 Wargor
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch
Cloven Hooves ]
Enchanted Shield
Crimson Armour of Dargan
Biting Blade
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon; Standard

1 Wargor
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch; Great Weapon
Cloven Hooves
Armour of Damnation
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception @ 178 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Standard

1 Wargor
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch; Shield
Cloven Hooves
Armour of Tortured Souls
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception @ 178 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Standard

1 Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Chaos Undivided

1 Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Chaos Undivided

1 Chaos Giant @ 205 Pts

1 Chaos Giant @ 205 Pts

Casting Pool: 20

Dispel Pool: 8

Models in Army: 28


Total Army Cost: 2997
(Total wounds: 92)

Spider
20-05-2005, 21:45
If i knew i was facing that army i would forgoe all magic myself (no point).

I would then buy an extra 2 or maybe 3 cannons (or boltthrowers or skullchukkas or whatever). I would then shoot the army into next week.

Then when what remained of your army got to my lines my several large ranked units would (at least) win though combat resolution.

And giants are fun. They are also utterley unpredictable (combat wise) and fairly easy to kill. i am not sure 2 are such a good idea.

Put it another way, with all that magic you are going to miscast. Every miscast (even the fairly neutral result wherein the phase is ended) will hammer you horribly.

Hell's Angel
20-05-2005, 22:00
I was thinking that I would Camp behind Terrain and Green Fire Units (Especially war machines until they are dead.) Anything that got closer I could magic missile to death (hopefully.) Yeah all those miscasts, but all those Irrisistable forces too! Besides whats the fun of tailoring your army to fight another army. I currently play pick-up games at a local gaming store and people play with the lists that they already have. O.K another question. Do you think that this list is cheesy?

Spider
20-05-2005, 22:21
If by cheesy you mean unfair then no, i just think that any well balanced army will give you a real headache.

Personally i don't really trust magic, it can very easily do nothing for you.

In a nutshell you have a fairly small fragile army (big targets/little or no armour), you need to take the initiative and minimise the damage that the enemy shooting or movement may do to you.

You have to charge.

And quickly.:)

But then thats what is good about the game, if you reckon you can make it work then go for it. Just because i wouldn't choose those tactics doesn't mean they won't work for you.

Hell's Angel
20-05-2005, 22:34
I dont mean that I wouldnt charge and use them to fight... I mean lets be fair they are combat machines, but I would rather use them on a battle field of my choosing, and that starts with setting up/using terrain. Choose any army and rush across an open field against a static gunline, and I dont care who they are, they will not fare well. Now add to that a small multi wound army,and its suicide. I think this list could work, but definately not with no terrain. An open battlefield is a graveyard, and any troop in it a casualty.

I do think this list would do well against horde/combat armies though in any terrain.

Gotrek
22-05-2005, 00:18
imagine if your doombull gets the reroll spell. :O it's gonna hurt anyone on it's path.

Hell's Angel
22-05-2005, 18:13
So then its of common consent that people could destroy my 2000 point list with little problem? Hrmmm Nothing in it makes you scared?

Hell's Angel
22-05-2005, 18:19
I could go for maximum troops, for example 2000 points could be...

1 Doombull
Mark of Tzeentch; General; Lore of Tzeentch; Great Weapon
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch

3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch

3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch

3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon

3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon

3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon

3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon

3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon

3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon

1 Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Chaos Undivided


1 Tuskgor Chariot @
Mark of Chaos Undivided

1 Chaos Giant

Casting Pool: 13

Dispel Pool: 3

Models in Army: 31


Total Army Cost: 1999

Riddy
23-05-2005, 12:33
Then you have 13 casting dice, of which you can use 6 to cast 2 spells, waste of points.

samw
26-05-2005, 03:02
This is too all intents and purposes a basic ogre kingdoms army list with different magic i.e. more dice less spells. Nothing here scares me, as with the exception of blue fire very little can hurt my army. :)

Hell's Angel
26-05-2005, 05:31
Str 6 mino's cant hurt you?

User Name
26-05-2005, 19:10
Adding a few components to take out war machines like furies and marauder horsemen even some beastmen or doggy shields would make your army more effictive.

samw
26-05-2005, 20:16
No, st6 minos scare me little when I can buy 9 st6 2+armour knights errant for the cost of your character units and crash them into your guys, going into combat winning by four (2 ranks, standard, outnumber). And Tzeentch magic really only works well against horde armies.

Lordmonkey
31-05-2005, 01:20
I think your army is very susceptible to panic due to shooty armies. Since your retinues are only 3 models big, one death is all it takes. With the maximum troops id say form them all into units of 5, to prevent this.

Break out the Cannons lads, were having steak tonight! :p

Frankly
31-05-2005, 04:13
Str 6 mino's cant hurt you?


They're T4 models that are open to getting the crap kicked out of them from;

Shooting

Magic

Getting charged.

Your given them no protection at ALL! Which is funny because BoC have 2 of the best mobile meat shields in the game.

I don't want to sound harsh, but thats a very weak Minotaur armylist.

You've given up to much defence for an out of out bashy armylist.

Sariel
31-05-2005, 07:17
Ye gods. That's what... 1 Doombull, 27 Minotaurs, 2 chariots and a Giant in one list?

If you buy and paint it, I'll kill it. :D


That being said, I really really don't think this Tzeentchian Doombull list would work. I'm sorry...... :(

Doombulls are great characters. Trouble is, you are spending your Lord choice on a character with NO magical protection (magic armour, ward saves etc) who will have a hard time hiding from magic and missiles, and has only two things really going for him:

1) Leadership 9. Very important in a Beast army, since the only other way to match it would be take a Shaggoth General, who is even MORE vulnerable than a Doombull (there's nowhere for him to hide, except possibly behind a hill in which case that leadership is kinda pointless).


2) The ability to take Minotaurs as a core choice. Which is all well and good, but Beastmen already HAVE excellent core choices.

Imho, the main advantage of making Minotaurs core isn't the ability to take 7 or 8 units of Minnies - there is definitely a point of diminishing returns for multiple Minotaur units (limited deployment space and the fact that most enemy units will only have that much frontage - ie generally you're not going to be able to squeeze more than 3-4 minotaurs).

Rather, its the ability to take 3 or 4 units of Minotaurs IN ADDITION to all those nifty special choices - Furies, Screamers, mortal Chariots and Knights...


Now, if you took say the Doombull, 3 units of 4 Tzeentch Minotaurs, half a dozen Tuskgor Chariots, some Furies, 3 Mortal Chariots of Tzeentch, a couple of Exalted Chaos Champions of Tzeentch on Discs and some beast herds, then I'd be worried...

Hell's Angel
09-06-2005, 02:19
It occurs to me that I have an old Keeper of Secrets Model, that would make an excellent spawn model... I suppose I could also convert another one using minotaur bits. It also allows me to take some goodies for my other models. What do you guys think?

Doombull
Mark of Tzeentch; General; Lore of Tzeentch; Heavy Armour; Shield
Blade of Blood
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; 2ndWeapon

1 Wargor (Minotaur Shaman)
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour
Cloven Hooves
The Dark Heart
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon

1 Wargor (Minotaur Shaman)
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch; Great Weapon
Cloven Hooves
The Goretooth
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception @ 158 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon

1 Wargor (Minotaur Shaman)
Mark of Tzeentch; Lore of Tzeentch
Cloven Hooves
Chaos Armour
Enchanted Shield
Retinue:
3 Minotaurs of Deception @ 158 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Great Weapon

1 Chaos Chariot (Minotaur Chariot)
Mark of Chaos Undivided


1 Chaos Chariot (Minotaur Chariot)
Mark of Chaos Undivided

1 Chaos Giant

2 Spawn of Chaos

Casting Pool: 14

Dispel Pool: 6

Models in Army: 21


Total Army Cost: 1997

Hell's Angel
09-06-2005, 02:22
I guess I am counting on the spell which grants a ward save, and also that people will shoot the chariots/giants/spawn first. Its just one of those lists where everything is a viable cannon target...

Gotrek
09-06-2005, 04:12
wargors are not minotaurs and you'd not want them to be couse of their base sizes and the inability to make "look out sir" rolls. i'd advise some herds for the numbers at least.

Hell's Angel
09-06-2005, 07:09
Well my wargors will be minotaurs. I purchaced the cloven hoof upgrade to get them upto the same speed, and they will be on a regular minotaur sized base. Hell they will be converted minotaur models. (Obviously with the stats of a wargor.)

Verjigorm
10-06-2005, 06:05
Make the Minotaur units larger, and less of them.

Panic and shooting will hurt you. Avoid it by using hounds and herds to screen.

Centigor make excellent companions for a minotaur army. You'll also be able to squeeze in furies and/or screamers.

Multiple threats make a beast army what it is. Without that, you're really just a buncha cows.

My buddy fields a Nurgle minotaur army, and it get's trashed routinely. Maybe because of it's complete lack of numbers of any kind, and reliance on fire magic to replace shooting.

Nurgle minos are the best kinds, and vastly superior to the Tzeentch version.

IIRC, Cloven hooves may not be taken with beast characters(As they already HAVE cloven hooves).

If you want to make them minos, i'd suggest Aspiring champs on steeds or exalted champs on daemonic steeds. Really, go for the steeds, better option.

what you need is
1. Numbers
2. Smashy(check that)
3. Screening
4. Manuever

Furies, Screamers and herds would help all of that out.

Hell's Angel
10-06-2005, 06:32
Where does it say that beastmen cant have the tzeentian mutations?

Verjigorm
11-06-2005, 17:13
firstly, the mutations are Trail rules. I can't find anything that supports beasts characters taking mutations.

Second, how would cloven hooves help wargors, who already HAVE cloven hooves? It's just silly, imho. BTW, Cloven hooves isn't a Tzeentchian mutation, anyway.

Hell's Angel
12-06-2005, 01:28
Oh, and what mutation is it pray tell? Lets call it something else if cloven hoof is bothering you. Lets call it bounding leap or something. Im only taking it so they can more as fast as the rest of the unit anyways... As for the size problems, I cant imagine that me taking liberty in converting wargors into half daemon / Half minotaur aberations will casue too much of a problem. Sticking them on a bigger base has drawbacks to it, not advantages. Also yes, the mutations are trial rules, but who cares? The only benifit I am getting is +1 movement, and at the cost of being able to pursue. (Wargors will be subject to the Blood Greed if they are in the same unit as the minotaurs.) Hell making the leap from 40k to fantasy seems to be making more waves that I thought... :eyebrows:

:angel:

Verjigorm
12-06-2005, 06:18
Well, i've not found any rules supporting beasts characters taking mutations. And i seem to remember reading in path to glory rules for the random mutations that beasts of chaos characters could not take cloven hooves(they already have them, you see?).

If your opponents are cool with it, then go ahead and do the damn thing. But switching base sizes is not merely cosmetic. There are sizable differences involved, which will favor you. Examples:
1. Template hits, where if on a 25mm base it would be a full coverage hit, but on the 40mm, it's a partial.
2. if you use any items that involve B2B contact.
3. targeting restrictions. 25mm bases mixed amongst 40mm bases may be targeted seperately. You remove that weakness.

You can rememdy these, but it's better to base models on the bases they come with, imho.

I'd love to see the conversions though.

Hell's Angel
12-06-2005, 09:15
Bah, I think it is silly that the Doombull is the only damn character model in the minotaur range. Cant Ogres take hero characters in addition to the Lord? They need to add a different character class if they make a army list...

Verjigorm
12-06-2005, 19:37
I agree whole heartedly.

a 60-80point Minotaur character /w WS5, S5 and T4 still, with 4 attacks, the ability to take heavy armour, and 50pts of magical weapons.

Or a minotaur shaman, though fluff really don't support that(but Tzaanbulls would be wierd then)

samw
12-06-2005, 20:25
Personally I think you'd be best using the minotaur models and the Ogre Kingdoms rules. Much simpler.

Hell's Angel
23-06-2005, 19:43
Why do you think that Nurgle Minotaurs are better that Tzeentch ones? Sure the 4+ save is nice, but I have access to a spell that gives the whole squad a 5+ ward save... Also I have a lot of magic too...