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gab-skull trasher
08-01-2010, 06:00
Is there something that i'm missing? or how come i haven't seen anyone on battle reports or army lists using Ork Big Gunz?are they ineffective?

Is it because of the space in the FOC?
-You can easily get a Big Mek so you can use Deff Dreads as troops, and you can get Battle Wagons as dedicated transports by using Nobz and free up the Heavy Support Chart.

Is it because of their price?
-For 60 points you can get 3 Kannons (Missile Launchers), which i think is the most effective way to destroy tanks or kill MC,while having a Killa Kan with a rokkit launcha comes at 50 points.

So is there anything that i'm missing? I have used 2 kannons in two different occasions and they were pretty good.Both times thay made up over 3x their points.So can somebody explain how come nobody uses big Gunz.:confused:

Axel
08-01-2010, 06:41
I have used Big Guns in all three varieties, from one to three each, with and without extra crew. Their battlefield performance ranges from neglectible to astonishing, depending on the situation and dice rolling.
If I can spare the points and they fit thematically, I usually field at least the lobbers. If I field zapp-guns, I always add some crew, and they usually scare the hell out of my SM opponents for their termies (though they rarely hit something). I use cannons least.

Born Again
08-01-2010, 06:46
I think it's generally that they're competing with other things, such as Dreds/ Kans and Battlewagons. Taking those in other FOC slots like you suggested is probably bad (at least in the case of the dreds) as it then begins to thin out our number of basic boyz. Also, the dreds and battlewagons can easily pack as much punch as big gunz, while having other perks such as being mobile, CC monsters, transport etc.

Having said that there's nothing bad about them though, and they have their own bonuses, though can be unreliable. It's the same as many choices in different books, there's nothing wrong with them, people just prefer to fall back on other things that they've had proven results with. You always see people taking Warbosses and Big Meks as their HQ's and neglect weirdboyz, but i think weirdboyz are a great choice. Sure, occasionally you'll roll a headbang, but the other 5 out of 6 powers are more than enough to make up for it.

WinglessVT2
08-01-2010, 06:53
They compete with all the walkers for slots.

gab-skull trasher
08-01-2010, 07:12
I have used Big Guns in all three varieties, from one to three each, with and without extra crew. Their battlefield performance ranges from neglectible to astonishing, depending on the situation and dice rolling.
If I can spare the points and they fit thematically, I usually field at least the lobbers. If I field zapp-guns, I always add some crew, and they usually scare the hell out of my SM opponents for their termies (though they rarely hit something). I use cannons least.

Really, like i said on the first post i've only used kannons before, because i tought they were the only useful choice. But lately, i don't know what happen that everytime i make a list i want to include at least 3 lobbas. And zzapp-gunz had never crossed my mind, cause thay seemed so unreliable and not woth it:)


I think it's generally that they're competing with other things, such as Dreds/ Kans and Battlewagons. Taking those in other FOC slots like you suggested is probably bad (at least in the case of the dreds) as it then begins to thin out our number of basic boyz. Also, the dreds and battlewagons can easily pack as much punch as big gunz, while having other perks such as being mobile, CC monsters, transport etc.

Having said that there's nothing bad about them though, and they have their own bonuses, though can be unreliable. It's the same as many choices in different books, there's nothing wrong with them, people just prefer to fall back on other things that they've had proven results with. You always see people taking Warbosses and Big Meks as their HQ's and neglect weirdboyz, but i think weirdboyz are a great choice. Sure, occasionally you'll roll a headbang, but the other 5 out of 6 powers are more than enough to make up for it.


They compete with all the walkers for slots.

Haha Weirboyz are the stuff, the only reason i don't use them is because i don't like proxing,(a lot) and i don't wanna buy metal models right now

Anyways....i don't know if it's just the GW that i go to or something, but i rarely see anyone use more than 3 killa kanz, if thay use any .And i haven't seen anyone use a single Dread, well on the internet i have but not were i play or places that i happen to go every now and then

beerdrinker
08-01-2010, 07:28
I have used 3 kannons in almost every game and in almost every game they have pulled off something awesome. My Kannons almost always get me at least one tank and usually some infantry. One game they put down a hammerhead and routed a fire warrior squad in close combat. Yes even grots can beat down tau. Mind you this was a minimum 6 grot crew in cover.
Even my opponent couldnt help but laugh as his under 50% squad ran off.

Lothlanathorian
08-01-2010, 07:30
In all the lists I've built (still actually building the models, so they are armies in theory lol) I run out of points using things in the army that I like. I want to make some Big Gunz and use them, but, for the most part, there are things in the list I like more that use up the points.

marv335
08-01-2010, 07:37
I run out of points.
I'd rather have more Boys.

Lothlanathorian
08-01-2010, 07:41
Marv and I share the same problem. Unfortunately, I also run out of money before I run out of Boyz lol.

Corax
08-01-2010, 08:06
I think that the answer is a combination of:
a) There are better ways of spending the points (Such as more boys).
b) There are better things to use the HVY slots on FOC for (Kans, Dreads, and Wagons, mainly).

Stumpy
08-01-2010, 08:32
Also c) they're easy kill points if individual, which is how I'd field them.

Metaphorazine
08-01-2010, 08:37
My main reason is that I have one of each model, bought pre-5e when I wasn't planning lists, just buying random ork models. So I'm proxying to field more than 1 big gun in a battery, and I hate the look of them so much I refuse to buy more. When/if they're ever re-done, I'll look at fielding them again.

Dangersaurus
08-01-2010, 09:33
I personally hate facing three lobbas (with the requisite ammo runts) when I'm playing Guard or even Tau. They can cluster their shots due to barrage, only need 2+ to wound most of my guys, and can usually reroll that all-important first scatter... last game my opponent was consistently removing about 5 models each turn and forcing a couple of units to either go to ground or fall back.

I'm just glad there's a three gun limit.

Corax
08-01-2010, 09:41
Also c) they're easy kill points if individual, which is how I'd field them.

True. Also...

d) Who want to rely on the BS (Ballistic Skill, that is) of anything in the Ork army? :rolleyes:

Rick Blaine
08-01-2010, 09:54
A 60 pt unit just feels like a waste of a HS slot. If you could field 3 units of 3 guns per slot, I'd take 27 big guns in every game.

Bunnahabhain
08-01-2010, 12:51
Because they are a merely OK unit in an army stuffed full of really good ones...

As mentioned above, lots of boys, then, some walkers for their moving cover save fill the points and FOC slot quite nicely...

Sir_Turalyon
08-01-2010, 15:06
I'm using them in almost every game. Battery of kannons is great for their points (3 BS3 missle launchers for mere 60 points, with cheap ablative wounds and ammo runts? yes please). Judging by guard mortar batteries performance lobbas should work great in 5th edition too, need to try them one day.




A 60 pt unit just feels like a waste of a HS slot.

I completly disagree. HS is filled with expansive toys that sink points away from important part, namely more boyz. Unless I'm playing a very big battle or fancy 3 independent Killa Kanz, I'm going to have a free HS slot with few points to spare on anyway. A cheap HS choice made to meat of my army rather rather than vainly try to outshine it is much better.

LonelyPath
08-01-2010, 15:24
I never field big guns for 2 reasons really.

1. They don't fit my Goff Ork theme.
2. They're to large a monetary investment for the amount of points they take up in a roster.

TheDarkDuke
08-01-2010, 15:34
I think that the answer is a combination of:
a) There are better ways of spending the points (Such as more boys).
b) There are better things to use the HVY slots on FOC for (Kans, Dreads, and Wagons, mainly).

you also forgot about how below average the models are compared to pretty much the rest of the army range (with a couple exceptions)

totgeboren
08-01-2010, 15:49
I have made my own lobbas, they look like the old whirlwind turret, but small and mounted on a little trike, with grots doing their best to get the rokkits launched.
I really like the models, and often include them. They kill lots of stuff, and the pinning has helped me out alot!

Ofc they have stiff competition from all the other great HS choices, and I think thats where they fall. Battlewagon? Lobba? Killakanz? Lobba? hmmm...

I'm still planing on making more big guns, but I think that will have to wait until the next codex, since the current one is unplayable vs Nids.
I face Nids the most, that they are sooo outclassed in almost every category compared to the orks, fun games are seldom had.
Hopefully the new Nids codex will change this, but i'm not convinced just yet...

Grax
08-01-2010, 15:52
Large monetary investment? Just get some cheap dwarven cannons on ebay, or pick up a single Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons team set. That's enough parts for 3 guns, for what, $15? With Orks, the secret is to convert as much as possible. It's not only a lot cheaper, but it ironically looks better too.

I used to underestimate big gunz, then I got trashed by them in a game against a very experienced player. Screw the other options, you want 3 kannons with ammo runts, and 3 extra krew if you have the points. That will blow away transports or frag infantry to pieces, depending on what you need at the time. They're dirt cheap and incredibly versatile.

As others have mentioned, they get neglected because Killa Kans, Battlewagons, and Looted Boomguns compete for the same slot. I think big gunz are definitely better than deff dreads though, which really underperform for their cost.

LonelyPath
08-01-2010, 15:56
The main reason for me though is that they don't fit my vision of my army, the money matter is secondary and nowhere near as important.

Shipmonkey
08-01-2010, 19:48
True. Also...

d) Who want to rely on the BS (Ballistic Skill, that is) of anything in the Ork army? :rolleyes:

The IG rely on BS3 and no one complains about there shooting.

IJW
08-01-2010, 19:51
IG can get rather more/scarier guns for the number of FOC slots, especially in Heavy Support...

naloth
08-01-2010, 19:52
I occasionally use them. They can be really useful against a mech army. Buy some re-rolls and you can pretty reliably pop whatever transport would otherwise keep da boyz from assaulting.

Deetwo
08-01-2010, 19:59
Kannon batteries seem rather useful for their points cost in lists that don't utilize walkers or battlewagons, it's a big shame the models are so ridiculously expensive.

Gutzmek
09-01-2010, 16:13
survivability. I would love to convert some big Guns for my army, but whenever I proxy them they get one round and then are destroyed by DS assault units. I usually take flash gitz. sure, they are unreliable and cannot deliver pie plates, but when bloodthirsters and lictors attack they are still nobs.

gab-skull trasher
09-01-2010, 18:08
survivability. I would love to convert some big Guns for my arm, but whenever I proxy them they get one round and then are destroyed by DS assault units. I usually take flash gitz. sure, they are unreliable and cannot deliver pie plates, but when bloodthirsters and lictors attack they are still nobs.

Wow, somebody actually uses flash gitz :eek: :p

So, so far i've seen 3 main reason people don't use big gunz:

One of them being that they don't fit in with the style of the army which i can understand, since many Ork players like having fluffy theme list. I mean what kult of speed army is going to have big gunz.

Another one is that they're competing with a lot of things for the HS chart. But do people always fill up they're Heavy Support. I mean you're not going to have too many boyz if you buy a lot of HS units.

And another one is that 60 points spend on big gunz, are 60 points less spent on boyz. But c'mon usual 40k games are usually 2,000pts. So if you want to buy 180 boyz it comes out at 1,080pts. thats still 1,000 pts. left to buy goodies.

RTB01
09-01-2010, 18:13
True. Also...

d) Who want to rely on the BS (Ballistic Skill, that is) of anything in the Ork army? :rolleyes:

I'd rely on Grots since they're using them at BS3 - far more viable than orky gunz

Gearhead
09-01-2010, 18:55
I have two Kannons and three Lobbas, I like big gunz. Granted, I can only play smaller games with my Orks since I've run out of room, but I think they're great. My opponents usually ignore the Kannons until hey pop a tank or chew up some infantry, but I realy like the lobbas. Since my army has a Nuclear power/Fallout theme, I just use Imperial Hunterkillers propped up on sticks for lobbas (high prices indeed). My Tau friend hates them(pinning), and the 'nid player doesn't care much for them either.

Count de Monet
09-01-2010, 21:01
I love my lobbas. Indirect fire is a wonderful thing to have.

Gensuke626
09-01-2010, 21:49
I don't recall reading this response when I was going through this thread, but personally I don't consider Big Gunz because they are static. My army is mobile footslogging / Kan wall + Trukk support, so having something living in Backfield that isn't scoring on a Capture and Control mission seems a bit daft to me. Between taking Big Gunz or taking Killa Kanz, I'd rather take the Kanz since they come in at just under 50 points if you take Grotzookaz (Which in my oppinion, is the ONLY weapon you should ever consider equipping Killa Kanz with.) a unit of 3 Killa Kanz with Grotzookaz comes in at about Half again as many points as a Lobba, but you get 6 small blasts at S6. Protect that with a KFF and Mobz a Good 'un.

rev
09-01-2010, 21:53
my opponant uses them and they're a pain!

sigur
09-01-2010, 22:21
I used them once; the Zzap-Kannon. Just for fun mainly. It didn't perform that well. :p But I still think that big guns are a viable investment. The general problem with the Orks list (in regards to units such as big gun batteries) is that Ork boys are just SO good that taking any other units always comes with a bad feeling.

Me, I don't usually use and HS slots at all in my Orks army lists; they're all pretty expensive to me (haven't tried walkers though to be fair) so big gunz are a pretty good choice to annoy people on the first two turns and maybe draw away fire from the other long-ranged unit, the lootaz.

The Clairvoyant
09-01-2010, 22:24
i use zzap guns, though not too often cos they need repainting. I use the 2nd ed smasha gun and traktor kannon to represent them.
i've also used lobbas in the past using squig catapults.

Once i finally get round to stripping the paint and redoing them, they'll feature more often in my army

Gutzmek
10-01-2010, 00:58
Wow, somebody actually uses flash gitz :eek: :p.
Proudly. I don't even have a Bad Moons army:).


One of them being that they don't fit in with the style of the army which i can understand, since many Ork players like having fluffy theme list. I mean what kult of speed army is going to have big gunz.

Sure they do. Grot themed armies can use Big guns(there grots after all:D), Blood axes( demz mor-tar teams), Mek armies(a Big Mek that likes gunz but can't build a buggy to save his life), and Kult of Speed(gunz are hitched to the buggies, dropped off before the buggies charge, and the grotz "try" not to hit the orks)
Agree with the other two point, though.

sigur
10-01-2010, 01:02
Traditionally Snakebites have a higher number of Runtherds than other clans and therefore make more use of big guns (at least squig catapults and cannons)*.



*stuff in brackets is assumptions.

09Project
10-01-2010, 01:08
Love my lobbas and wouldn't take them out for anything, they just seem to over-achieve far too much, plus, they can hide away double bonus (for the grotz).

Big guns are also great as they can be modelled in so many ways, i have 40k squig catapults, got some random girders and plastic from the local model shop, used green stuff to make stretched rubber bands (sort of like a 40K doom diver) add a bomb squig an you away!

Seriously, big guns are great, both in game and modelling opportunities, I have sometimes taken zzap guns but rarely kannons.

Lobbas though, never leave home without personally, they the first HS selection I write down every time.

As for are they fluffy, yeah, mine are crewed by my big meks favourites, still to make them little signs though to talk to each other with :(

Ork X
10-01-2010, 05:56
No one ever seems to take mine seriously....

S00N3R FR3AK
10-01-2010, 06:48
Ran against a foot slogging list. Had 5 large squads or orks and then 2 big meks with shokk attacks and 3 zap guns. Those zaps were a pain.

Axel
10-01-2010, 10:20
Those zaps were a pain.

Zzap guns can be very sensitive for those players with lots of 2+ armour, especially termies. Its not so much the loss of the model that hurts but the shame that a terminator was killed by a grot :D

Lobbers are perfect against any soft targets, though I also managed to hurt SMs (Grey Knights, not less) pretty bad with them in one game. Indirect long rage fire is nothing the opponent expects from Orks. Also three cannons can be a pretty effective block for light vehicles. For a meagre 60pts you make your opponent think twice wether he can sneak around with that Rhino, or flanks you with a Landspeeder. Admittedly you could also field four Looters for the same points, but in my armies elite spots are usually more crowded then HS.

The question on efficiency is for me rarely wether boys are more effective. It is what disrupts the plans of my opponent more. I usually field a core of boys first (some three solid units), a bossmob, 10 grotz and some looters. After that its up to flesh out the army with HQ and other funny stuff: koptaz, stormies, buggies, tankbustas, big guns, burnas ...
the variety is unending, and almost always fun. Give Big Guns a chance.

As for models - a part of the antenna that comes with the bastion set is not really missed there and makes a great Zap-gun, you just have to provide the carriage. Take some plastic grotz and cut the weapons, and there is a brandnew gun.

Maren
10-01-2010, 10:39
Myself I just don't think they fit in with the rest of the orc army. I mean to me it just seems weird that a close-combat berserker style army would use artillery. A proper orc aims to bash his opponents head in with a rock not one of those fancy shmancy new toys the big meks are making. That's for sissies.

blurrymadness
10-01-2010, 11:09
3 main reasons
-Orks are spoiled for heavy support. We like Kanz, we like Boomwagons, we like battlewagons, we even occasionally like dreds. Most take precedence.
-Durability. While they don't cost much, a kannon or lobba crew are generally rather weedy by comparison for the points. People would rather spend 50-150% more for rokkit kanz to do a similar, more durable, and duality style job. Kanz are threatening and thus appeal more.
-Grotz. Some people don't like them for being weedy, some for the stats, some for the models, what have you. They just aren't as cool to some. I personally like grotz though I stopped using them more recently as I like too many choices in the army ;).


The best way to go here is to get Lobbas, the ONLY pinning weapon and ONLY G weapon we have in the army. They tear stuff up, have great range, can be put behind LOS blocking cover or behind the army increasing their durability, but also without negative side affects (outside from subtracting BS from your roll).

If you have a more infantry based or use Dedicated transports primarily, then you can use the extra space for big guns, as they're quite good. Lobbas are however the best bet to get something unique and powerful into the army.

Ben
10-01-2010, 12:12
You can attach SAG Big meks to artillery units, they are free to shoot at whatever target they wish and have a big meatshield around them. If you like SAGs then a battery of kannon is worth taking. You can do the same with Lootas, but Lootas will often want to shoot light vehicles while SAGs will want to hit clumps of infantry.

AFnord
10-01-2010, 12:45
While big gunz are not great on a model per model basis, they are great for their point cost. They are cheap, and they can still be a threat to what they are supposed to be a threat to, and if your opponent shootas at your big gunz, it means that he/she does not shoot at something more expensive, which is always nice.

Kannons are, in my opinion, the best of the bunch. They can deal with transports really well, and they cost next to nothing. Orks really need to wreck any transports that comes their way trough shooting, as charging transports is usually not a good idea (as whatever is inside will get a round of shooting and/or a charge against your charging mob, which usually will deal quite a bit of damage. Flamer vets & khorne berzerkers in particular needs their transports wrecked trough shooting!). I'm finding these to be better at destroying transports than lootas, for their point cost. A mob of lootas will, of course, be better at wrecking transports, but at ~2-3 times the point cost.

Lobbas are also quite useful. They can be lethal to most low save troops, and can also put a dent in 3+ save units. Pinning is a nice bonus, but not the main draw of these. While orks have a lot of good anti-horde shooting (big shootas, grotzookas, SAGs, boomwagons, killkannons (well, good might not be the right word for this, useful might be more appropriate) and shoota boyz, lobbas can fill in a hole if you don't have a lot of those, and a very low point cost.

Zzap-guns are a bit more specialized. They are good against things with a 2+ save, but far too unreliable to be pointed at vehicles. I usually prefer kannons, because of their reliable S8, although when it comes to hunting big bugs or terminators, this is the gun to pick.

Davidian
15-07-2011, 11:19
I think they can be a great unit but like previously mentioned, they don't always fill important roles or work well with certain builds. I use 3 big gunz - kannons

The main reason is that they fit my fluff! I play blood axes.

My usual taktik is to dump them on a home objective [preferably in cover] surrounded with a 20+ strong grot skwod. In annihilate I like to reserve them and bring them on into cover as far from action as possible [being easy killpoints].

With a couple of ammo runts they can ruin transports efficiently at a fraction of the cost of... anything else really! And if anything, it's my lootas that draw the most unwanted attention, leaving them to freely open fire [until they prove themselves and get promptly targetted XD].

Their range means they can reach out and touch the enemy from turn one [very few st8 rokkits can engage the enemy without getting up close and personal]. This coupled with the "frag" round makes them a very flexible little unit.

With regards to the HS slot. It's not an issue for me. Most my points are sunk into boyz of some description. I have over 100 orks with grots ontop of that... so I usually only use 2 HS slots [usually a pair of boomwagonz and my BW is dedicated].

I cannot speak for lobbaz and Zzap gunz as I've had little experience with them. My whole army can deal with anti infantry so lobbas weren't in question and since Zzap guns need to roll to hit ontop of being random St I decided to stay away from them [at least I know my WB and DR are always gonna be St10].

What I wanted was another unit that can hit av12 [transports/light tanks/skimmers/dreads] early on. With only a few points to spare [not wanting to reduce my boy skwodz at all] and an open HS slot it just seemed like the right thing to do.

I've scratch built 3 grot tanks [just basics, they're still WIP] to use as my kannonz as I too hate the models and I figured it was a good representation as the kannonz have an armour value and all.

Easy E
15-07-2011, 17:15
Let me preference this by saying I am not great in the Win/Loss category.

However, I love my Lobbaz, and Kannonz. Why?

I use something I call Da' Horns of Da Squiggoth, and is based on Zulu warfare. A solid core of boyz slowly moving foward is the core. Any smart opponent will sit back and shoot me to pieces.

That's where the Lobbaz and Kannonz come in. They can't just sit and wait for me to get there without taking incoming fire and their own casualities. It provides incentive for them to move up closer to me.

The opponent is put on the "horns" of a dilemma. Sit back and wait while getting bombed and blasted into pieces, or move forward and engage my main strength.

That's the strategic plan, of course; no plan survives contact with the enemy.

Ulrig
15-07-2011, 20:06
I think that the answer is a combination of:
a) There are better ways of spending the points (Such as more boys).
b) There are better things to use the HVY slots on FOC for (Kans, Dreads, and Wagons, mainly).

Yeah grots have same BS as the Guard does....so not sure what you are getting at here.

And for the BS 2 boyz, when you are throwing that many dice it doesn't matter.

Squad of 30 shootas is 60 dice....even at 5+ to hit, people stop smiling when you pick up two handfuls of dice.

misterboff
16-07-2011, 09:13
I've got a Battlewagon with a Deff-Rolla, so I've got one of each Big Gun in plastic. I've got some spare wheels and Rhino parts, so I plan on converting some gun carriages and buying a box of Grotz to crew them.

I face Deathwing a lot, so Zzap Guns should be handy, and Lobbas are always good for hiding out of sight.