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brother slaughterer
08-01-2010, 13:41
Im thinking of trying tournies for the first time this year and adapting my usual Khornate daemons list.

An experienced Daemon playing mate gave me this list as an example of one to use.

Any comments guys?

Cheers

Bloodthirster - Immortal Fury
Herald of Nurgle - Palanquin, Lv 1 Sorc, Noxious Vapours, Slime Trail, BSB
Masque
Skulltaker on Juggernaut

Plaguebearers (11) - Std, Mus

Horrors (10)
Horrors (10)

Flesh Hounds (5)
Flesh Hounds (5)

1995 points

Will obviously have to increase to 2250 for tournies.

Any comments guys.

Cheers

blackjack
08-01-2010, 14:00
For uncomped tournies it will do fine. I recommend a Khorne herald on a jugger with a flaming sword, armor and the banner of chaos victory. He is a bit more expensive than Skull Taker but way more powerfull. (average CR of 3 pluse rerolls on break tests is awsome...).

For any other kind of fun game just dont do a list like this you will have no one to play against very shortly.

brother slaughterer
08-01-2010, 22:09
For uncomped tournies it will do fine. I recommend a Khorne herald on a jugger with a flaming sword, armor and the banner of chaos victory. He is a bit more expensive than Skull Taker but way more powerfull. (average CR of 3 pluse rerolls on break tests is awsome...).

For any other kind of fun game just dont do a list like this you will have no one to play against very shortly.

Thanks for that.
It is deffo a list for full on tournies, not for fun games. I play a full Khorne list for fun.

ill try the HoK and see how it looks thanks

theworldsnerd
09-01-2010, 00:18
i think this list is fine for normal games, it's not overly magic like some daemons are. it's got a good balance of magic and combat in my opinion. with just just 5 dp and 5 pd i think that it's not over powering and not weak. the bloodthirster is cool and hard in combat but is also not overly power as can be killed by canons and stone throwers. flesh hounds a just generally hard, end of. if i was to ever to a daemon army i would be so tempted for 3 units just because they're such solid troupes. i like this list, i reckon it would be a nice list to play with and against.

Gaargod
09-01-2010, 02:03
Not hard enough!
You said it was for a tournament army. Hence, i do not feel bad when i say this. (screw you warhammer madman, i will do it regardless! - private joke).


The army has some hitty speed, in the bloodthirster and flesh hounds. They are good.

It has a little magic defence, with 5DD. Not even enough for a full uncomped tourney tho.
It has very little long range stuff. 2 magic missles a turn + whatever the lv1 herald can do, likely miasma, against decent magic defence... No. No flamers/screamers means you can't attack stuff unless in combat, except terror bombing (which, admittedly, works).

The plaguebearers are nice lump, but too slow. They don't generally win combats (its not that they can't, they're just not particularly designed to do so, except without poison wounds = double combat res), they're just a deathstar. Except for the fact your unit has too few incentives to hit it - its not got enough points to make it worth the large amount of effort. On the other hand, if anyone did decide to kill it, its not big enough to resist a truly powerful assault/sustained flamey shooting. In other words, a points sink without a point.

Personally i'd drop the whole unit. Its like 500pts+ which will actually do you very little, as the rest of your army is fairly fast/ attempts to be long range. Take another unit of horrors for min core and the 5DD.
Simiarly, drop Skulltaker for a HoK with BSB (put him in flesh hounds, and he doesn't really need hitty banner, that unit will drop most things happily. Standard of sundering might be an idea, if you have spare points).
Give the bloodthirster some armour! Even just armour of khorne and a scroll will help. Yes, it does make him more vulnerable to Spirit of the Forge, but helps against... well pretty much all small arms and other spells. Scroll will almost certainly come in useful at some stage.

Masque is... debateable. She's so silly good, its often worth taking her in any army with a quick terror causer (Read: greater daemon who flies/KoS). However, T4 W2 3++ leaves her fairly vulnerable to any kind of sustained fire and she lacks the hittyness required to drop things. I compare her to furies - she's a little more expensive, a little less hitty (potentially), a little less survivable in terms of wounds, although each wound is individually a lot harder to take, and she's a bit slower (Mv10 as opposed to flying). On the other hand... silly -D3 leadership ability. Generally people take risks with furies, lobbing them at artillery or blocking LoS to important units, whereas the masque tends to sit in a wood and irritate things. Ideally, take both. Only 72pts for 6 furies after all - use them to kill artillery who otherwise take down your big daemon.

Flamers. Get some. 6. End of. 12 would be better, but by god it gets hard to fit 12 flamers, 30 horrors, a BT, a herald BSB, some furies and 10 flesh hounds in an army at 2k (can be done, but not exactly easy).

If, by some miracle, you still have points at the end of taking out the nurgle stuff for the horrors, flamers, furies and HoK, get a HoT with a scroll. 6 DD and 2 scrolls is a solid magic defence, especially as the BT and flesh hounds have magic res 2. Standard of sundering is also a valid choice, for a bit cheaper, to irritate the enemies' main caster.




Basically, the issue is this: Daemons are underpriced. But even so, they're still not cheap (if you know what i mean). A BT is drastically underpriced, but its still around a quarter of your army. Your army will be small. This is ok - they're all rock hard at what they do. But they will need to be supported - flesh hounds can rip shred units, but if they're shot up a bit first, not so much. But if you reverse that, they will piledrive their way through things (especially with a HoK... stupid thing). Line up 'either way, you die' propositions for the enemy, so he gets flank charged either by flesh hounds or a BT, but he's definitely getting flank charged by something. Then expect his sacrificial untis to stand in front of your flesh hounds :D
Incidentally, don't expect 5 PD to do... anything. You might get lucky and sneak a couple of magic missles through, so its worth trying, but mostly the horrors are there for core and cheap DD. If they kill something, that's a bonus.

brother slaughterer
09-01-2010, 11:09
Not hard enough!
You said it was for a tournament army. Hence, i do not feel bad when i say this. (screw you warhammer madman, i will do it regardless! - private joke).


The army has some hitty speed, in the bloodthirster and flesh hounds. They are good.

It has a little magic defence, with 5DD. Not even enough for a full uncomped tourney tho.
It has very little long range stuff. 2 magic missles a turn + whatever the lv1 herald can do, likely miasma, against decent magic defence... No. No flamers/screamers means you can't attack stuff unless in combat, except terror bombing (which, admittedly, works).

The plaguebearers are nice lump, but too slow. They don't generally win combats (its not that they can't, they're just not particularly designed to do so, except without poison wounds = double combat res), they're just a deathstar. Except for the fact your unit has too few incentives to hit it - its not got enough points to make it worth the large amount of effort. On the other hand, if anyone did decide to kill it, its not big enough to resist a truly powerful assault/sustained flamey shooting. In other words, a points sink without a point.

Personally i'd drop the whole unit. Its like 500pts+ which will actually do you very little, as the rest of your army is fairly fast/ attempts to be long range. Take another unit of horrors for min core and the 5DD.
Simiarly, drop Skulltaker for a HoK with BSB (put him in flesh hounds, and he doesn't really need hitty banner, that unit will drop most things happily. Standard of sundering might be an idea, if you have spare points).
Give the bloodthirster some armour! Even just armour of khorne and a scroll will help. Yes, it does make him more vulnerable to Spirit of the Forge, but helps against... well pretty much all small arms and other spells. Scroll will almost certainly come in useful at some stage.

Masque is... debateable. She's so silly good, its often worth taking her in any army with a quick terror causer (Read: greater daemon who flies/KoS). However, T4 W2 3++ leaves her fairly vulnerable to any kind of sustained fire and she lacks the hittyness required to drop things. I compare her to furies - she's a little more expensive, a little less hitty (potentially), a little less survivable in terms of wounds, although each wound is individually a lot harder to take, and she's a bit slower (Mv10 as opposed to flying). On the other hand... silly -D3 leadership ability. Generally people take risks with furies, lobbing them at artillery or blocking LoS to important units, whereas the masque tends to sit in a wood and irritate things. Ideally, take both. Only 72pts for 6 furies after all - use them to kill artillery who otherwise take down your big daemon.

Flamers. Get some. 6. End of. 12 would be better, but by god it gets hard to fit 12 flamers, 30 horrors, a BT, a herald BSB, some furies and 10 flesh hounds in an army at 2k (can be done, but not exactly easy).

If, by some miracle, you still have points at the end of taking out the nurgle stuff for the horrors, flamers, furies and HoK, get a HoT with a scroll. 6 DD and 2 scrolls is a solid magic defence, especially as the BT and flesh hounds have magic res 2. Standard of sundering is also a valid choice, for a bit cheaper, to irritate the enemies' main caster.




Basically, the issue is this: Daemons are underpriced. But even so, they're still not cheap (if you know what i mean). A BT is drastically underpriced, but its still around a quarter of your army. Your army will be small. This is ok - they're all rock hard at what they do. But they will need to be supported - flesh hounds can rip shred units, but if they're shot up a bit first, not so much. But if you reverse that, they will piledrive their way through things (especially with a HoK... stupid thing). Line up 'either way, you die' propositions for the enemy, so he gets flank charged either by flesh hounds or a BT, but he's definitely getting flank charged by something. Then expect his sacrificial untis to stand in front of your flesh hounds :D
Incidentally, don't expect 5 PD to do... anything. You might get lucky and sneak a couple of magic missles through, so its worth trying, but mostly the horrors are there for core and cheap DD. If they kill something, that's a bonus.

Thanks for your advice dude.
writing a provisional list taking into account your recommendations (BT, HoK, Hounds (15), Horrors (30), Furies and dropping PB, HoN and Skull) brings me to 1872 points.

Now am I correct in that most tournies (big anyway) are 2250 pts?
I will now try to squeeze in the HoT and or the flamers...tight I know.

Will post the list in a bit.

Cheers

brother slaughterer
09-01-2010, 14:58
Well guys, here is the revised 2000 point list with everything squeezed to fit it all in:

515 Bloodthirster - Immortal Fury, Armour of Khorne, Spell Breaker
228 Herald of Khorne - Juggernaut, Great Standard of Sundering.
160 Herald of Tzeentch- Disc, Spell Breaker
90 Masque of Slaanesh

147 Horrors (10) - Icon of Sorcery
120 Horrors (10)
120 Horrors (10)

175 Flesh Hounds (5)
175 Flesh Hounds (5)

60 Furies (5)

210 Flamers (6)

2000 points exactly.

For 2250 points Tournies, the list would be:

BT - IF, AoK, SB
HoK- Jug, FSB, GSoS, AoK
HoT- Disc, SB
Masque

Horrors (10) - IoS
Horrors (10)
Horrors (10)

Flesh Hounds (5)
Flesh Hounds (5)
Flesh Hounds (5)

Furies (8)

Flamers (6)

2248 points in total.

Look forward to your comments guys.

Cheers in advance

WEA3
09-01-2010, 19:05
I need posts so I can post myself ^^

brother slaughterer
10-01-2010, 11:51
Is the list competitive?
Do I need to make any changes to make it a viable force?
I understand that it is not an enjoyable list to face but Im trying large tournaments for the first time and wish to be competitive.

Comments welcomed.

Cheers

Piaevo
31-05-2010, 16:33
I need posts so I can post myself ^^

Yea me too...

I am looking to start a Daemon Army....
I could use all the help I can get as a returning player.

Tzeentch Lord X7
01-06-2010, 03:27
i prefer 2 units of 5 flamers and 2 units of 5 hounds other than that list looks good

Thortek
02-06-2010, 02:59
Mean list...I like IT!

Stumpy
02-06-2010, 05:03
Well if the tourneys in your area are no-holds barred cheesefests where the best army list wins instead of the general, its good.
Probably drop a unit of flesh hounds and add more flamers if you're going all out.
I wouldn't bother with the standard of sundering either, you've got heaps of magic defence. Take one of the other silly standards.