PDA

View Full Version : Empire BSBs



boogle
08-01-2010, 16:49
Hi guys, how do you kit out your Empire BSBs, i have a mounted BSB (from the empire characters set and was wondering what people's opinions on how to equip them, do you generall go with the banner unupgraded and go with ward saves/magic armour to keep him alive, or do you go all killy with him, or do you spend his allowance on that magic banner.

Cheers guys

Malorian
08-01-2010, 17:55
In my opinion the bsb empire BSB is the griffin banner build on barded steed.

Crazy Harborc
08-01-2010, 18:01
If and or when I use a BSB....the equipment can vary. It depends on what I'm facing and or what I am in the mood to push across the table at my opponent.

I just do not subscribe to the idea of using army lists "carved in stone". Lists that never change are (for myself) well, boring.;)

boogle
08-01-2010, 18:03
True, that's why i generally buy everything that's in the army book, to give me the variety

Crube
08-01-2010, 18:41
My current fave is the BSB on a barded Steed, with the Griffin Standard in a large unit of Swordsmen. As I run a GotE, they can also have a magic banner, so give them the warbanner, and with a bit of luck , you're starting with +10 Combat Res... (+3 ranks, +3 Griffin, +1 BSB, +1 Standard, +1 Warbanner +1 flank (from a detachment counter charging). If you're really lucky, you could get the +1 for Outnumber too, and +1 for higher ground....

boogle
08-01-2010, 19:00
I am tempted to put my mounted BSB in an infantry unit as well

danny-d-b
08-01-2010, 19:06
as been said before, griffon standard on barderd warhorse with full plate, sadly we can't give him a shield for the 1+, but hay +10 res rocks, considering you should have your flanks protected by great swords/ flagellants

RGB
09-01-2010, 01:55
The Gryphon BSB is a good deal but also a prime target. He's only WS5, T4, 2W, 2+ save. Anything with S5 hitting him 4 times will kill him and you lose 5! combat res that way all in one fell swoop. Also beware things with KB - Bloodletters, Grave Guard, Black Knights.

You can protect him from enemy characters using a challenging champion or VHS wizard, however.

Clymer
09-01-2010, 09:53
My experience of the last year is that Empire BSBs are so easy to kill that he needs magic armor to survive. But then, no magic banner and the unit probably loses combat anyway because infantry blocks are so weak in the game right now.

As for protecting him in challenges, don't count on it. Say a unit of chaos knights with some dude on a jugger slams into your front. You offer a challenge with your duelist, the chaos knight champion accepts and lays waste to him. Then Mr. Jugger and maybe another knight allocate their attacks on your BSB and lay waste to him. The scenario is even worse with your VHS wizard. Not only is said wizard unlikely to cause a wound to chaos champ, thanks to armor, and likely to get squashed in return thanks to chaos steed attacks +Lance charge, but you've just used up the useful part of his magic item allocation and weakened your magic phase. Think of the total points and opportunity spent just trying to give a BSB a slightly better chance of survival. In the unlikely event that your opponent doesn't have a unit that can chew through a block of swordsmen and BSB without batting an eyelash, well, good luck trying to get him into combat wheeling around his march blockers with your M4.

I hate to be a pessimist, but I think the only use of an Empire BSB these days is to offer your opponent easy VPs.

On the other hand, if you're playing against Orcs and Goblins...

Commodus Leitdorf
09-01-2010, 15:25
Empire BSB's die to quickly to really get any use out of them. I mean, just a BSB on foot with the AOMI and the Icon of Magnus can be useful in a unit of Greatswords. But decking him with a magic banner...well...lets just say if any puts any real effort into killing him, he will die pretty quickly.

Either the setup I just gave (he clocks in at 125pts) or just go for broke and try for the Griffon banner on a barded horse. It CAN work, but its risky.

Frankly the only Empire Captain I use in my list now rides on his pegasus and steals spells (God bless the Casket of Sorcery). My State troops are kept in reserve till my shooting/magic has had its way with the opponent for a few turns. By then its usually safe to commit them to a fight, so a BSB isn't all that nescessary.

That being said...I miss my Poor BSB :(

Mudkip
09-01-2010, 18:34
I agree with Clymer. I think Sword of Might and Armour of Meteoric Iron are probably a good combo for the Empire BSB, but I don't use one either. It typically means swapping out a wizard or Warrior Priest which I can't justify most of the time.

AtmaTheWanderer
09-01-2010, 18:59
I like my Empire BSBs with a light honey glaze, spit roasted to perfection under a roaring warpstone fire.

oh, for the game. the "screw you I have double rank bonus" banner is probably the one I fear the most, to be honest.

Crazy Harborc
09-01-2010, 20:12
For most of my regular opponents and I's WHFB battles over the last 3-4 years, magic was not the big deal of the games.

Most, heck all my WHFB games, have been on private tables since GW ran itself out of town, the state. In fact, we no longer played fantasy at the company store before it closed a year ago.

Poseidal
09-01-2010, 21:31
Sword of Might and Dawn Armour on a Barded Steed usually.

It's a good thing Empire get the Sword for such a good price. Would be better if he could take a shield.

Though maybe a 5+ Ward would be better than the Dawn Armour? what do you think?

Putty
10-01-2010, 03:39
I started with Captain + BSB + Imperial War Banner on Barded Steed in a unit of Knights + Lector + Warrior Priest but quickly realized my infantry blocks that I left behind needed the BSB more than the Cavalry.

I'll be experimenting with a the same set up but deployed within Swordsmen blocks during future games.

Problem with Empire BSBs is that they need to be babysitted and used carefully to benefit most of your army. I think they work best when used within slower elements in the army and not with Knights because it is the infantry that bears the brunt of the punishment most of the time and they would need the BSB bonuses the most.

RGB
10-01-2010, 09:19
As for protecting him in challenges, don't count on it. Say a unit of chaos knights with some dude on a jugger slams into your front....

The only reason a VHS wizard or a champion could protect him would be against a unit where all the killing power rests with the character you're challenging. Vampires and such, maybe even Daemonettes/Bloodletters.

I wholeheartedly agree the BSB with a magic banner cannot be defended against Chaos knights, and a BSB with mo magical banners but with other toys is a giant waste of points.

Bring a Pegasus Captain instead.

yabbadabba
10-01-2010, 09:30
I dont take a magic banner with my BSB. I tend to vary between an offensive/defensive magic item set up. I do need to convert a new BSB onto a barded steed as that will improve his armour no end.

KHolbourn
10-01-2010, 12:44
I love my little BSB (when he doesn't die that is!). In both cases I always put him at the edge of the unit to try and minimise the number of things in BtB contact and always kep the countercharge detachment on that same side so that if they actually manage to kill an opponent its one of the models in BtB with my precious BSB.

He is fragile but the 2 builds I most commonly use are:-

1. Barded pony, Full plate & Griffon Banner in a unit of 25 Swordsmen (If the opponent they are in combat with is hard enough to kill him easily then they are normally hard enough to break through even your +10 combat res.)

2. Barded pony, Fullplate, Doomfire Ring +/- Sword Might and use him as +1 combat res and some "killing power" (as much as any empire character is) in a unit of swordsmen with the bound spell to add pressure to the enemy dispel pool

Found it to be fairly effective. I know he's not the most effective bit the Wizard lord, 2 wizards and a priest build isn't appealing in the slightest :)

explorator
10-01-2010, 14:31
Empire BSB's die to quickly to really get any use out of them. I mean, just a BSB on foot with the AOMI and the Icon of Magnus can be useful in a unit of Greatswords.

I have the Special Ed Empire BSB model who is on foot, so I run him just like this in a block of state troops. He is neither super durable nor expensive, and the model is too nice to leave in the case.

Havock
10-01-2010, 15:38
You offer a challenge with your duelist, the chaos knight champion accepts and lays waste to him.

Except for that little problematic rule that chaos has -at least, it is for them...us, seeing as I play WoC as too-: They must issue a challenge.
So you don't.

If he challenges with unit champion, you accept with BSB. He challenges with hero, you accepts with unit champion. Easy. Of course, if he has a lord, he can simply "word of agony" your champion before any challenge is issued, then challenge ;)

If you want to be sneaky, put VHS on said BSB: Nasty character charges in, you accept in a "here goes nothing"-manner. cue vampires and chaos lords getting their arses whooped :p
One trick pony, but funny nonetheless ;)

Clymer
10-01-2010, 17:32
The only reason a VHS wizard or a champion could protect him would be against a unit where all the killing power rests with the character you're challenging. Vampires and such, maybe even Daemonettes/Bloodletters.


I agree, the problem is that there are so many good units out there now that this is rarely the case. Also, since almost every other army can outmanouver an Empire infantry block, a canny opponent will never offer you such a fair match, unless he's made a mistake.

As for the VHS protecting the BSB, you've got to think about the resources you're expending for a very mediocre combat capability that is so slow it will never be able to pick its battles:

125 to 198 point BSB plus a 130 to 150 point wizard, two hero character slots and 30 points of magic casting enhancement lost for what? The possibility that your opponent will accidentally bump into your mediocre trap without the means to totally annihilate your characters?

Hold onto your BSB model... 8th edition is coming soon and probably followed by a new Empire Army Book shortly after. I expect GW will find a way to make an Empire army full of banners and BSBs viable again. Heck, they've done well for some of the 40k underdogs in 5th edition while still managing to preserve their character (IG and Orks).

At Havoc:

Very Savvy with the chaos challenges... that had slipped my mind. Well spotted. Still though I wouldn't fancy my chances with a BSB and swordsmen against much in the WoC army. Cheap, banner-less, mark-less, hero-less Chaos knights hitting in the front, by themselves maybe, or certainly dogs or marauders, but anything else? My swordsmen are toast and the BSB with them unless I can can bring something else to bear.

Valaraukar
10-01-2010, 17:39
Surely it's not as bad as all that as you can move your BSB around in the unit the turn before the charge to avoid being in base to base with nasty characters as they cannot do so when charging? They have to maximise numbers in contact too so you can see more or less where the character will end up.

Havock
10-01-2010, 21:52
At Havoc:

Very Savvy with the chaos challenges... that had slipped my mind. Well spotted. Still though I wouldn't fancy my chances with a BSB and swordsmen against much in the WoC army. Cheap, banner-less, mark-less, hero-less Chaos knights hitting in the front, by themselves maybe, or certainly dogs or marauders, but anything else? My swordsmen are toast and the BSB with them unless I can can bring something else to bear.

May I suggest properly sized and tight fitting shoes for everyone?

Cambion Daystar
11-01-2010, 17:18
If he challenges with unit champion, you accept with BSB. He challenges with hero, you accepts with unit champion. Easy.

Except that a lot of their champions can beat your BSB up pretty good.

Havock
12-01-2010, 00:11
Except that a lot of their champions can beat your BSB up pretty good.

The only ones that can do so with a semblance of reliability are blood knights unit champs (like, durrrr :p), anything khorne daemon and chaos knights.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2010, 13:34
Chaos: warriors, chosen, chaos knights, dragon ogres, chaos trolls /
Vampire counts: Grave guard+ black knights (Killing blow)

and the list goes on.

Havock
13-01-2010, 21:51
Add daemon stuff to that list and its practically complete: IE. the most balls to the walls combat armies make mincemeat of your '2 wound chaos warrior champion'. Not entirely unreasonable to think that you shouldn't take these units head on?

Skyros
15-01-2010, 22:55
Empire BSB's with a magical banner die incredibly easily. You must protect these with a unit champion to shield them from challenges, but most armies with hard hitting elites can simply mow him down by allocating the attacks from the 2 or 3 guys in base contact. DE, Daemons, Chaos, VC, all fall into this category.

It's just too many points to have riding around on an unprotected 2 wounds. BSB without magical banner is best. And yes, this does make most of the banners in the Empire 7th ed book largely pointless. Moving the griffin banner to 55 points was a travesty.

SatireSphere
17-01-2010, 10:52
There are really three options when it comes to BSBs I think.

You can go for the Griffin Banner or the Standard of Sigismund on a block of swordsmen for a rock hard unit.

You can go with the Imperial Banner if you're running a TVI style infantry horde (has fallen out of favor, but it can work).

Or you can keep him on the cheap and give him the War banner or even nothing at all if you're super cheap.

yabbadabba
17-01-2010, 11:15
There are really three options when it comes to BSBs I think.

You can go for the Griffin Banner or the Standard of Sigismund on a block of swordsmen for a rock hard unit.

You can go with the Imperial Banner if you're running a TVI style infantry horde (has fallen out of favor, but it can work).

Or you can keep him on the cheap and give him the War banner or even nothing at all if you're super cheap.
Or option 4 arm him for combat or survival and forget the magic banner.

explorator
17-01-2010, 11:33
Or option 4 arm him for combat or survival and forget the magic banner.

Ding. Winnah! The problem with giving the Empire BSB any magic banner is that it makes him extraordinarily vulnerable to getting killed before his precious re-roll. Having a decent armor save is just not good enough protection for a front-line BSB as there are enough rank and file troops able to single him out and cut him down.

Poseidal
17-01-2010, 11:36
Agree, I find Sword of Might plus defensive item is my preferred build. Especially since he can't take mundane weapons. The bsb effect is pretty good in itself.

Crazy Harborc
18-01-2010, 00:05
I agree. The best luck I've had with using BSBs is for the extra plus 1 in HtH. Darn near everytime I've used a BSB with a magic banner....it turns into a giant billseye.

SatireSphere
18-01-2010, 00:46
Or option 4 arm him for combat or survival and forget the magic banner.

I've never really tried giving him any magical protection or weapons because Empire's stuff tends to be pretty overpriced by modern standards. If you keep him to the side of your unit the enemy usually can't get more than 2 (sometimes 3) in base contact, and that's tough for most things to move. Swordmasters for example would get 6 attacks, ~4 hit, ~3 wound, ~1.5 are saved (assuming full plate and a barded warhorse). Sure, it's risky, but if you can keep him safe you'll be able to win most combats especially with the Griffin Banner.

If I give him the Imperial Banner I usually put him in the middle of my line with my general's unit (usually an Arch Lector). The Lector challenges any baddies that show up (usually armed with VHS and Mace of Helstrum).

Havock
18-01-2010, 04:28
"praying" for that 4+ ward helps immensely as well.

If you ever field one on foot, use a beat wizard next to him. Bears anger says nothing about not being able to hold a banner :p

ChaosVC
18-01-2010, 06:29
+1 amour put in another unit near the great swords and avoid fighting hard units, let the great swords take all the crap and tar pit hard stuff with them while the bsb stay safely away from the action and aid the great swords with rerolls for break test. Pretty wise for a standard guy.

If you feel lucky, get him the griffon banner and pray he lives.