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jeuna
09-01-2010, 08:31
As stated are dragon ogres infantry, cavalry or monsters ? I want to know wheter or not drogres can capture buildings.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-01-2010, 08:52
They're basically ogres, so they can attack buildings, and up to three of them can fight in the melee.

WLBjork
09-01-2010, 09:29
They are an ogre sized unit.

However, I would say they are closer to cavalry than infantry (cf. Centigors and Bull Centaurs) and thus follow the rules for Cavalry/Mounted models.

nosferatu1001
09-01-2010, 10:29
They are large infantry sized models and not cavalry.

brynolf
09-01-2010, 13:47
Nothing except for common sense says that they are cavalry, so RAW, they are ogre sized infantry.

nosferatu1001
09-01-2010, 13:51
they are NOT cavalry, they are not a mounted model. Stating that they are "common sense" cavalry is ironic given they are not ridden by anyone, the definition of cavalry...

Making them cavalry creates a lot of issues.

brynolf
09-01-2010, 13:54
they are NOT cavalry, they are not a mounted model. Stating that they are "common sense" cavalry is ironic given they are not ridden by anyone, the definition of cavalry...

Making them cavalry creates a lot of issues.

Yes, I meant that they realistically should have similar problems regarding buildings as cavalry. Not that they should get a +1 AS and such.

Kalandros
09-01-2010, 14:08
They are an ogre sized unit.

However, I would say they are closer to cavalry than infantry (cf. Centigors and Bull Centaurs) and thus follow the rules for Cavalry/Mounted models.

Cavalry have their own rules which Dragon Ogres do not follow.
Dragon Ogres are large Infantry the same as any other Ogre, Kroxigor, Minotaur, etc

danny-d-b
09-01-2010, 19:06
dragon ogers are infantry, anyone that says otherwise is a twonk and is wrong

sulla
09-01-2010, 20:26
Yes, I meant that they realistically should have similar problems regarding buildings as cavalry. Not that they should get a +1 AS and such.Why? Because they have an extra set of feet and a tail? Anywhere an ogre or minotaur can go, these guys should be able to.

Kerrahn
10-01-2010, 08:03
If Daemons' Plaguebeasts and Fiends of Slaanesh are counted as Infantry, so are Dragon Ogres.

T10
12-01-2010, 14:37
Why is there a poll attached to this question?

Dragon Ogres are infantry: They gain a +2 strength bonus with Great Weapons and they can use two hand weapons for +1 attack. They can assault and occupy buildings.

-T10

Arnizipal
12-01-2010, 14:46
I seem to remember some explanation about "when cavalry is not cavalry" concerning things like Bull Centaurs and the like but I don't recall what the conclusion was.

Ultimate Life Form
12-01-2010, 21:43
Why is there a poll attached to this question?


What I find even more disturbing than that is that there are votes for 'no'.

T10
13-01-2010, 10:00
I seem to remember some explanation about "when cavalry is not cavalry" concerning things like Bull Centaurs and the like but I don't recall what the conclusion was.

Bull Centaurs are explicitly defined as infantry models with US 2 in the Ravening hordes booklet. I'd say that's a pretty definite conclusion.

jeuna
13-01-2010, 13:06
What I find even more disturbing than that is that there are votes for 'no'.

Yep , it's just that. I was looking for a clear ( and rigorous ) rule that states they are infantry or cavalry. I think it's infantry since the brb defines infantry as 20 to 40 mm bases and cavalry as 25x50 mm bases. However since they flee/pursue 3d6 and they 'look' a bit like cavalry (especially centigors) I can imagine some dispute arising when I would want to assault a building. And there is nothing as fun to warhammer as : I'm gonna do that ... You can't do that ... yes i can it's in the rules ... no it isn't you roll 3d6 when you pursue don't you... etc ... ruined game ... :)
And the poll confirmes that a significant amount of people at least 'feels' they are cavalry.
After my last game I just kept thinking I should have assaulted a skink infested building with my drogres but during play the thought never accured to me.:cries: So i gonna try it the next time this situation arises but if I do I want to be backed by the rules.
Btw T10 answer is probably the best one ( ie +2 strength w. great weapons so they must most definitly be infantry) but to all repliers (incl. the ones that define them as cav) thanks.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2010, 13:28
Pursuit distance had nothing to do with being cavalry or infantry.

Avian
13-01-2010, 13:41
From the rulebook:


Cavalry
The term cavalry refers to riders mounted on horse-sized creatures that have only 1 wound on their profile, mounted on a 25 by 50 mm 'cavalry' base.
Sounds like Dragon Ogres? No


It also refers to other four-legged creatures, such as warhounds, wolves, etc. that have 1 wound on their profile and are mounted on a cavalry base.
Sounds like Dragon Ogres? Still no.


Infantry
Infantry includes all units of foot troops, be they goblins, men, ogres, trolls or any other of the myriad Warhammer races fighting on foot. Normally, infantry are mounted on a 20 mm, 25 mm or 40 mm wide square base.
Sounds like Dragon Ogres? Yes.

Arnizipal
13-01-2010, 13:46
Sounds like Dragon Ogres? Still no.
[devils advocate]

Yes it does :eyebrows: (apart from the one wound).
But then Fleshhounds have two wounds as well and they're fast cav.

[/devils advocate]

Poseidal
13-01-2010, 13:48
Interesting, what does that make Fleshhounds, since they have more than one wound, but are mounted on the 25x50 cavalry base?

Unless their unit entry is specific about it?

Avian
13-01-2010, 13:53
[devils advocate]

Yes it does :eyebrows: (apart from the one wound).
And the cavalry base. One out of three isn't very good. Hopefully you are not arguing that something is cavalry if the only criteria it fulfills is having four legs, while at the same time fitting all the criteria for another category.
By that reasoning, a Hydra is cavalry as it too has four legs, the wrong number of wounds and is on the wrong base. ;)



Interesting, what does that make Fleshhounds, since they have more than one wound, but are mounted on the 25x50 cavalry base?
Presumably, if you were in a war and got handed a spear with a note attached to it saying "Blunt end towards the enemy", you would know what to do. ;)

jeuna
13-01-2010, 15:27
I am still curious why some people keep voting no

danny-d-b
13-01-2010, 16:55
I am still curious why some people keep voting no

cos there are idiots in the world

I'm still curious why this is still open?
dragon ogers are infantry

thread closed

Arnizipal
13-01-2010, 17:13
And the cavalry base. One out of three isn't very good. Hopefully you are not arguing that something is cavalry if the only criteria it fulfills is having four legs, while at the same time fitting all the criteria for another category.
By that reasoning, a Hydra is cavalry as it too has four legs, the wrong number of wounds and is on the wrong base. ;)
*facepalm*
Forgot about the base-size... :o

decker_cky
13-01-2010, 17:24
Flesh hounds are cavalry ONLY because of the blurb about them being cavalry on the base chart, so they're cavalry by exception.

Avian
13-01-2010, 19:46
Even if had not read that chart, we could have figured out* that they are probably cavalry due to fitting two of the three criteria for that and none of the criteria for anything else.


* well, I know that *I* could have figured it out, hopefully other people could have as well

Atrahasis
13-01-2010, 19:57
The "Flesh Hounds are infantry" anomaly has been known for some time, but we don't talk about it because people might start being silly.

Lord Dan
13-01-2010, 23:49
I am still curious why some people keep voting no

I voted "no" because "yes" appears to have enough friends already. It's also silly to ask for the opinion of people with regard to a question that isn't open to interpretation.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-01-2010, 18:43
I voted 'no' because I can't see that they're really that different from a man mouned on a horse in terms of their manoeuvrability, ability to climb stairs, etc.

The definitions of model types aren't really very good for warhammer so I'd be inclined to discuss it with an opponent.

JimmyFrank
14-01-2010, 19:01
Dragon ogres = infantry eh?
Didn't know that, me-thinks its time for some 13th spell goodness *rubs dirty little paws together*

Rolo Ramone
14-01-2010, 19:21
It only works on US1 infantry I think.

Leth Shyish'phak
14-01-2010, 19:49
The Thirteenth Spell doesn't mention unit strength anywhere in its description.

Why do people keep thinking that it does?

Also, Dragon Ogres can't be infantry. Infantry with tails just ain't natural.

Grimgormx
14-01-2010, 19:51
House rules?

I would let my enemy capture a build if the miniature is abble to cross the door. I know, this arent official rules but I think that is just right.

So DO will be abble to capture temples with huge doors, but not a small hut.

Whats the size of the juggernauts mounted by blood letters miniatures? are they cavalry? how much did they move? would you let them capture a build?

Rolo Ramone
14-01-2010, 19:59
Also, Dragon Ogres can't be infantry. Infantry with tails just ain't natural.

So Skinks and Saurus are not infantry. O k...

Leth Shyish'phak
14-01-2010, 20:56
Yeah, that part was a joke.

danny-d-b
14-01-2010, 23:09
So Skinks and Saurus are not infantry. O k...

or skaven dum caracters

skank
15-01-2010, 10:02
I voted 'no' because I can't see that they're really that different from a man mouned on a horse in terms of their manoeuvrability, ability to climb stairs, etc.

The definitions of model types aren't really very good for warhammer so I'd be inclined to discuss it with an opponent.

I'd say a dragon ogre would be much closer to ogres than to a bloke on a horse. Four legs and a tail would'nt be so much of a handicap, stoats move around tight tunnels easily.

Then again it does not really matter, it's just an abstract rule and DOs are infantry.

savage_orc
15-01-2010, 10:10
I might be wrong but does the base size not normaly dictacte the unit type ?

Adran
15-01-2010, 10:33
If they don't count as infantry then they would have the worse upgrade possible.
Extra hand weapons on a cavalry model does nothing.

T10
15-01-2010, 10:41
Additional hand weapons on a mounted model, surely. Cavalry models such as Dire Wolves, War Hounds and Flesh Hounds certainly cannot be considered "mounted".

-T10

Avian
15-01-2010, 13:05
I might be wrong but does the base size not normaly dictacte the unit type ?
Normally, yes, but not always.

jeuna
15-01-2010, 15:42
I voted 'no' because I can't see that they're really that different from a man mouned on a horse in terms of their manoeuvrability, ability to climb stairs, etc.

The definitions of model types aren't really very good for warhammer so I'd be inclined to discuss it with an opponent.

As to their ability to climb stairs, they do climb steep mountains ;)

TheDarkDaff
15-01-2010, 21:25
House rules?

I would let my enemy capture a build if the miniature is abble to cross the door. I know, this arent official rules but I think that is just right.

So DO will be abble to capture temples with huge doors, but not a small hut.

But the Dragon Ogres could probably pick up said hut and take it with them as a nice mantle piece ornament for their cave.

Dutch_Digger
16-01-2010, 08:54
k...
Does a dragon ogre wearing a hut as cape have to roll a difficult terrain test like any other chariot?

T10
16-01-2010, 11:30
No. He is impassable terrain.

-T10

KayazyAssassin
16-01-2010, 11:38
if they are a infantry unit then the 13th spell would work on the unit

Leth Shyish'phak
17-01-2010, 14:38
We have already established that Dragon Ogres are not infantry and are in fact impassable chariots.

So the 13th spell won't affect them.

Griefbringer
17-01-2010, 15:30
k...
Does a dragon ogre wearing a hut as cape have to roll a difficult terrain test like any other chariot?

I am more interested to know what is the saving throw of the dragon ogre wearing the hut. Is it treated the same as a DE sea dragon cloak?

o0-NattyMcFatty-0o
17-01-2010, 18:39
yes, he also counts as being in hard cover;)

Urgat
17-01-2010, 19:33
Additional hand weapons on a mounted model, surely. Cavalry models such as Dire Wolves, War Hounds and Flesh Hounds certainly cannot be considered "mounted".

-T10

Not that they often run around carrying two hand weapons :p

decker_cky
17-01-2010, 19:42
Additional weapons can't be used on any cavalry. Check the last paragraph on page 55 which leads into the weapons rules. If centigors had the option for AHW, they couldn't use them without a rule explicitly granting this (which they had in the 6th book, but they don't in the 7th book).

T10
17-01-2010, 21:06
Not that they often run around carrying two hand weapons :p

I know of at least one player that swear by the additional hand weapons option.

-T10