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damiengore
09-01-2010, 12:06
Hey all

My friend and I are going to a doubles tourney (2000pts a player) and we haven't really played seriously for at least a year (too much 40K!). I'm really not up to speed on the latest army books, the last one I really got into was VC.

So what I'm looking for is a very brief synopsis of what a typical Daemons, Skaven, DE, HE uber cheesy build is because I more than expect to see it!

I have trolled thru the tactics threads but I was looking for a really sumised bullet point type of thing like:

DE list:
Lord on Dragon with X, Y and Z, he makes u re-roll all successfull hits and every hit does a S5 to your face.
2 Hydras- nuff said!

Another thing to consider is unit interaction, like there will be 2 armies of 2000pts on one side. Are there any lord interactions I should be aware of?

We will be playing VC and VC.

thanks in advance.

Witchblade
09-01-2010, 14:39
VC:
Huge grave guard unit with GW, FC, banner of the barrows, wight king on steed with darkenhoff banner and a unit of 10 ghouls behind them with a vampire lord with the helm of commandment that spams vanhel's onto the grave guard.

snottlebocket
09-01-2010, 16:35
Expect to see lots of fleshhounds and flamers in demon armies, usually led by a bloodthirster. (or in case of Nurgle armies, points denial in the form of an army that pretty much consists entirely of models with both a ward and regeneration)

FLUEVOG
09-01-2010, 17:40
For Empire -

Archlector on War Altar
2 Steam Tanks
Tons of Knights
Cannons

Steam Tanks are terror-causing, unbreakable, 1+ AS, 10 Wound beasts (well, tanks) that aren't effected by any spells unless it has a Strength value. Plus, since its a war machine, you have to completely kill it (cause 10 Wounds) to get any points out of it whatsoever.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
09-01-2010, 18:20
Skaven may field 2 Plague Furnace, Either 2 Abominations or Doomwheels (maybe a combo of 1 and 1), and a ton of Plague Censer Bearers.

Plague Furnaces are mounts for a Plague Priest, stuck in a unit of Plague Monks, giving them a frenzied and unbreakable unit, PLUS the Furnace itself does an array of attacks, including d6 s6 impact hits, d6 Toughness tests with no armor saves, and an artillary dice worth of s5 hits. Don't forget the Priest on top casting Pestilent Breath into your unit while he's in combat, and doing d6 s2 hits with no armor saves.

The Abomination and Doomwheel are both terror causing, have random movement, impact hits, and pretty much eat anything they touch.

Plague Censer Bearers have frenzy and hatred, and use flails, giving them each 3 s5 attacks in the first round of combat. However, before combat starts, any of your models touching any of them has to take a toughness test with no armor saves. They also skirmish.

AtmaTheWanderer
09-01-2010, 18:30
The Abomination and Doomwheel are both terror causing, have random movement, impact hits, and pretty much eat anything they touch.

And are extremely hard to kill. In the games I have played with my Skaven I have lost my Doomwheel or Abomination one time each. Most games they take less then 3 wounds over the entire game.

damiengore
10-01-2010, 01:52
Thanks so far guys, a lot of what I expected from Empire and Daemons. I don't know much of anything about the new Skaven so the info is helpful, maybe I need to look at their army book and the Skaven tactica thread!

thanks again

tmarichards
10-01-2010, 01:59
DEs- Ring of Hotek on a dragon, rider wearing regen armour
- BSB on a dark steed with a 1+ armour save, reverse ward save and sword of might
- possible shadestar with the Ring of Hotek, BSB with the ASF banner
- assassins charging out of units of shades on turn 1

Stronginthearm
10-01-2010, 03:48
Vamp Lord on Dragon with Red Fury and Dread Lance,
-All attacks hit Str 7 automatically
-All wounds inflicted provoke another attack
-Hitting dragon at -1 to hit
-ITS A LORD ON A DRAGON

blackjack
10-01-2010, 06:51
ultimate cheese ball is generally still daemons.

Either Kiaros or a Blood Thirster with OB armor, Flaming sword and infinite hatred.

3 blocks of horrors, 2 of 10 one of 29 with a hearald of TZ. Give all blocks banner of sorcery.

Khorne herald on jugger with BSB banner of victory, flaming sword, Chaos Armor.

Then as many khorne dogs and flamers as you can fit.

will have some trouble against flame proof high elfs and roll everyone else.

LKHERO
10-01-2010, 09:01
Vamp Lord on Dragon with Red Fury and Dread Lance,
-All attacks hit Str 7 automatically
-All wounds inflicted provoke another attack
-Hitting dragon at -1 to hit
-ITS A LORD ON A DRAGON

Vampire Lords on Dragons are actually one of the worst in the game sadly.

fubukii
10-01-2010, 14:15
i disagree LK, While thier dragon isnt as good the Lord oin dragon is still a beastly unit to fight especially if you give him hatred, he is especially nasty.

give him that ward save item, balefire lance, soome other items,
Infinite hatred, other blood line powers.

Makes for a tough combat unit :)

Stronginthearm
10-01-2010, 17:05
Vampire Lords on Dragons are actually one of the worst in the game sadly.

While they may not be as nasty as the magic lord behind a GG deathstar its still not fun to run up against

Tolinwiz
10-01-2010, 23:58
Typical high elf cheese from what I understand is:

Teclis in a unit of phoenix guard with Caradryan + Banner that gives +D3 spell dice.

4 x bolt thrower

5-10 x Dragon princes

2 x 10 archers

Then lion chariots or swordmasters depending on what you like.

And the Kairos Demons list doesn't roll everything in the game as easily as purported. Most fast armies don't have much difficulty beating it IMO. It does tend to metagame well against other cheeseball armies, however.

damiengore
11-01-2010, 11:46
Thanks guys

I agree the VC lord on dragon is a bit of a silly build as it puts your general in a position to die very early on leaving the rest of your army to crumble.

I am running a VC lord on dragon but a bit of a twist

Master of Dark Arts, Dark Aco, Summon Creatures of the night, Carstien Ring and Flayed Hauberk.

Means I can be more fearless with him early on and not worry too much about warmachines.

Although the 2 times I have run him I rolled 1's for the ring!

thanks again

Sygerrik
12-01-2010, 01:07
For Vampires character cheese often takes the form of Lord of the Dead and Dark Acolyte, spamming one PD IoN that go off on a 3+ and bulking out units. Expect to see the Book of Arkhan and the Black Periapt and maybe a lord with the Skull Staff for the additional +1 to cast. IoN still won't go off on a 2+ but it will mean that opponents can't reliably counter one-die casts with one-die dispel rolls.

For Daemons expect to see a Herald of Khorne BSB with the Banner of Sundering and Obsidian Armor on a Juggernaut, in a unit. 0+ save, 5+ ward, hatred on the whole unit, +1 combat res, and you suffer a -2 to all your casting rolls (unless you're using multiple lores, which might be a good idea).

To counter the Steam Tank threat, take Forbidden Lore on a lord-level caster character and try to get Spirit of the Forge off. 2d6 hits wounding a STank on 3s with no AS allowed will put some wounds on it, and once you wound a STank 3-4 times it becomes dramatically less powerful (due to the fact that it has a much harder time generating Steam Points). Against that army, neutralizing the casters is a priority, since they will often simply be scroll caddies to protect the tanks; a Varghulf or two is good for this. Once you have magic superiority, nuke the tanks, mop up the rest of the army, then finish off the wounded tanks with GW grave guard or cav.

Alltaken
12-01-2010, 18:53
any lizzi cheeze out ther? I've been using 2 eotg's lvl 3 DS all the wat
1 big temple guard unit
hero with GW + Hide of the Cold Ones
Slann 2 disciplines
cupped hands or cube of darkness
bane head
warbanner
BSB

lotsa skinks. Can that be accounted as cheese?

fubukii
12-01-2010, 23:48
2 eotg slannn tg? thats one of the best cheese LM lists out there

damiengore
13-01-2010, 02:26
2 eotg slannn tg? thats one of the best cheese LM lists out there

Sorry not that familiar with the new lissies, assuming eotg is Eye of the Gods, what does it do?

thanks again for the tips, very helpful!

damiengore
13-01-2010, 02:27
For Daemons expect to see a Herald of Khorne BSB with the Banner of Sundering and Obsidian Armor on a Juggernaut, in a unit. 0+ save, 5+ ward, hatred on the whole unit, +1 combat res, and you suffer a -2 to all your casting rolls (unless you're using multiple lores, which might be a good idea).

To counter the Steam Tank threat, take Forbidden Lore on a lord-level caster character and try to get Spirit of the Forge off. 2d6 hits wounding a STank on 3s with no AS allowed will put some wounds on it,

Expecting Sundering from Daemons, too good for them to pass up, good new is it doesny effect IoN. We are running one of our lords with Forbidden Knowledge to have gauranteed access to Van Hals for the GG death star.

I will look up that spell, very cool!

thanks

Nicha11
13-01-2010, 02:58
Sorry not that familiar with the new lissies, assuming eotg is Eye of the Gods, what does it do?

thanks again for the tips, very helpful!

EOTG= "Engine of the Gods"

It puts your skink priest on a stegadon, makes him a defacto lv3 and grants a choice of some neat abilities.

ChaosVC
13-01-2010, 07:37
If you are going to a tourny, your oponent will also be equally if not more cheesy. Since both of you(and your oponent) will be cheesy, doesn't it all come down to experience...and since you have been playing 40k all this time...goodeluckeh matey.

damiengore
13-01-2010, 13:00
If you are going to a tourny, your oponent will also be equally if not more cheesy. Since both of you(and your oponent) will be cheesy, doesn't it all come down to experience...and since you have been playing 40k all this time...goodeluckeh matey.

I have been playing fantasy on and off since 89, 40K has been my primary hobby for the past 2 years with drips and drabs of WFB. Last tourney I went to I took my Ogres and manage 3 draws despite facing some absolutely insane Empire/HE builds.

It's nto experience I'm worried about or lacking, I'm just about 3 or 4 army book behind on dirty tricks, familiar with some of the big magic items but have never faced certain combos. For example I knew Ring of Hotek was big against caster but I had no idea what it did. Also wasn't aware of the Shade Assassin bomb thing, someone mentioned it so I checked the FaQ and know I am aware! That's the sort of stuff I was looking for.

Thanks for the GL tho!

Alltaken
13-01-2010, 15:32
no other cheese lists? only DE, WC, DE, HE, Empire, LM?

inq.serge
13-01-2010, 18:24
Vamp lord with ethereal and forbidden lore (light), can cast Pha's illumination.

It makes him lose one attack, but turns all enemy Magic weapons in contact into mundane weapons. And he's ethereal meaning that he can't be wounded by mundane weapons. Nice in challenges.

For DE

Crone Hellebrone, death hag with rune of khaine and ASF banner, 5 witch-elves with AP-banner, and hag with rune (but no musician), standing near a cauldron of blood = 8-10 st10 ws7 AP hatred ASF (I9) attacks, 7-9 (or 8-10?) st4 ws7 AP hatred ASF (I7) poisoned attacks and 21-23 st3 ws4 AP hatred ASF (I6) poisoned attacks OR 7-9 st10 ws7 AP hatred ASF (I9) Killing Blow attacks, 6-8 (or 7-9?) st4 ws7 AP hatred ASF (I7) poisoned Killing blow attacks and 16-18 st3 ws4 AP hatred ASF (I6) poisoned killing blow attacks

WOC:
Infernal puppet + Pandemonium (+ black tongue)

damiengore
13-01-2010, 20:00
Vamp lord with ethereal and forbidden lore (light), can cast Pha's illumination.

It makes him lose one attack, but turns all enemy Magic weapons in contact into mundane weapons. And he's ethereal meaning that he can't be wounded by mundane weapons. Nice in challenges.

WOC:
Infernal puppet + Pandemonium (+ black tongue)

Nice trick with the lord but he's dead meat if he fails to get of Pha's illumination!

I've heard a lot about Puppet and black tongue, what do they do?

Valaraukar
13-01-2010, 20:20
Black tongue is 50 points, for the loss of a wound the WoC character can convert any failed casting attempt by the enemy into a miscast.

Infernal puppet is a steal at 35 and allows the WoC player to modify by choice ALL miscast results by up to the roll of a D3 rolled separately on each occasion in either direction.

Pandaemonium is a RIP spell from the lore of tzeentch which makes enemy wizards miscast on any double and prevents the use of any of the enemies characters leadership.

inq.serge
13-01-2010, 20:30
Forbidden lore gives all spells of that lore, so, a vamp with lore of light automaticaly has that spell.

Valaraukar
13-01-2010, 20:41
yeah but as stated above he can fail to cast it.

soots
14-01-2010, 01:43
lizmen. 6 tonka trucks (stegs)

ChaosVC
14-01-2010, 02:22
I have been playing fantasy on and off since 89, 40K has been my primary hobby for the past 2 years with drips and drabs of WFB. Last tourney I went to I took my Ogres and manage 3 draws despite facing some absolutely insane Empire/HE builds.

It's nto experience I'm worried about or lacking, I'm just about 3 or 4 army book behind on dirty tricks, familiar with some of the big magic items but have never faced certain combos. For example I knew Ring of Hotek was big against caster but I had no idea what it did. Also wasn't aware of the Shade Assassin bomb thing, someone mentioned it so I checked the FaQ and know I am aware! That's the sort of stuff I was looking for.

Thanks for the GL tho!


With experience you will know where this dirty combos are hidden and when to expect them to comes into play and avoid it. You are welcome by the way.

damiengore
14-01-2010, 12:15
Black tongue is 50 points, for the loss of a wound the WoC character can convert any failed casting attempt by the enemy into a miscast.

Infernal puppet is a steal at 35 and allows the WoC player to modify by choice ALL miscast results by up to the roll of a D3 rolled separately on each occasion in either direction.

Pandaemonium is a RIP spell from the lore of tzeentch which makes enemy wizards miscast on any double and prevents the use of any of the enemies characters leadership.

Nasty business! Thanks

Azethel
14-01-2010, 14:25
If you face WOC you are likely to see a lvl4 Tzeentch sorc on disc trying to throw out gateway on your deathstar units (If he rolls 11 or 12 for the str then the unit is removed from the game...no saves, no items, just gone). That or a daemon prince lvl4 tzeentch caster doing pretty much the same thing.

Along with that probably 2-3 lvl2 nurgle sorcs throwing the 1st spell to snipe your characters. He is looking at 12-13 Power dice and even with 7 DD you will be hard pressed to stop it all.

Add 4 units of Chaos Knights and dogs/mara horsemen to get in the way.

oh...btw, a frenzied unit of 6 knights will throw out 18 S5 and 12S4 attacks.

phoenixguard09
14-01-2010, 15:04
I don't know whether this can be qualified as cheesy but this may give you a bit of a heads up for the upcoming tourney.

Dark Elf lists where I play consist of large Repeater Crossbow units that form a nasty gunline and small spear units to accommodate the assassins. A largish Black Guard unit with ASF banner and 2 Reapers fill out the rest.

High Elf lists take massive amounts of Specials with 14 strong Swordmasters and several units of Dragon Princes with 1 or 2 Cores that are either Archers or Sea Guard. (Never see Spears for some reason...) At least 2 Eagle Claws follow.

VC lists load up on Grave Guard, Black Knights and Ghouls with a Wight King BSB with a multitude of different banners. I don't really know much about VCs. But at least one of the Vamps has Summon Ghouls. I think thats the Bloodline Power. Not sure about these.

No Lizzies where I play but we do have some almost unbeatable Wood Elf players who take exclusively Dryads for Core with a Branchwraith for Heroes, Treeman Ancient for Lord (occasionally) and loaded with Wild Riders, Treekin, Waywatchers and Treemen.

Watch out for experinced Empire gunlines expecially with VCs. Someone above said take Lore of Metal. Probably a good idea because I think it has a spell that targets warmachines which stops Hellblasters and the like. Between Steam Tanks, Handgunners, Great Cannons and Hellblasters I would try to take out the Volley Gun first because it causes havoc in your lightly armoured and generally low toughness troops.

Where I play we have one Daemon player and one Chaos Warrior player. The WoC player keeps things simple:cries: and just loads up on Warriors, Knights and a Hellcannon or two. The Daemon player though plays pure Khorne so noone has known what it's like to win a close combat...

Anyway Good Luck.

damiengore
14-01-2010, 19:28
I don't know whether this can be qualified as cheesy but this may give you a bit of a heads up for the upcoming tourney.
Anyway Good Luck.

Thanks mate, great advice!

phoenixguard09
14-01-2010, 23:38
No problem. Happy to help.

Witchblade
15-01-2010, 03:25
WOC:
Infernal puppet + Pandemonium (+ black tongue)
Cheese? Crap, you mean. Black tongue is a horrible item, even with the Puppet.


If you face WOC you are likely to see a lvl4 Tzeentch sorc on disc ...

Along with that probably 2-3 lvl2 nurgle sorcs ...

Add 4 units of Chaos Knights and dogs/mara horsemen to get in the way.

Go theoryhammer! That never fits into 2000pts or even 2250pts.

damiengore
15-01-2010, 13:19
Cheese? Crap, you mean. Black tongue is a horrible item, even with the Puppet.


Go theoryhammer! That never fits into 2000pts or even 2250pts.

That;s not ver helpful but thanks for coming out!

Can anyone run me done on the crazy items a DE lord on dragon would have?

captainAurelius
19-01-2010, 15:31
He has a point in that you don't have to worry about the black tongue because no one ever takes it. And the 4 units of knights is a bit of an exaggeration. Think 3, tops. And 2 Nurgle Socerers max.

There isn't really a super cheese build for WoC, the above one being the only thing near it, so no worries here.

D'Haran
19-01-2010, 16:30
HE cheese is limited at 2k, I usually don't play with special characters so w/o specials you are looking at 4 mages, probably 15+D3 power dice between them. Against VC you'll probably see almost each one try to cast drain magic every turn, I know it's what I'd do as it's crippling to VC.
Other cheese is a Lord on a Dragon, Lord with have 2+ rerollable armour and 4+ ward, dragon T7 W6 S7 A7. This will probably be accompanied by either alot of shooting (4 RBT, Archers, etc) or alot of special cc units. I've also seen this done with 3 mages though that army is rather small and can fall apart easily.
With special characters you're very possibly looking at some kind of Magic build with Telcis and/or a Death Star (white lions or PG) which will be stubborn, magic resist or immunity all together, causes fear, ward save, ASF, BSB with battle banner/sorcery/world dragon -1 to shooting and all that fun stuff.