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XenosVanquisher
09-01-2010, 22:17
I hear this term used a lot when people are referring to certain armies within the tournament circuit.

What armies are actually considered to be top tier (placing consistently well in tournaments etc)?

I heard a 'veteran' tournament attendee rambling on about Eldar being the army to beat right now - funnily enough that same night his Eldar force was topped by a guy playing with IG.

P.S - I done a search for this under three different terms...So apologies if it has indeed been asked before.

harrytheschmuck
09-01-2010, 22:30
well it all depends on the builds and the player. but i personally would put in this order but many others will have their own lists.

1.eldar
2.chaos
3.daemons
4.orks
5.marines (various)

Mannimarco
09-01-2010, 22:41
yeah Id agree with that, not to sure about daemons though but only because they are a bit of a rarity out here I almost never see them

so definately eldar chaos and orks with maybe some guard builds doing well for themselves

Seth the Dark
09-01-2010, 23:08
I would put IG out there as Vaktathi on the forums has quite the winning streak around here. But it mainly depends on the player as to how effective the armies are.

TheOneWithNoName
09-01-2010, 23:26
Army effectiveness 101 people:

Top Tier army does not = undefeatable. Eldar being defeated by IG in a one off game has no bearing on their power level.

Always assume equal level of skill between players when trying to determine power level. The fact that a 10 year veteran Witch Hunter player can defeat a 1 year Ork player has no basis on their power levels.

Yes, some armies are inherently better than others. No, sorry, 40k is not balanced.

druchii
09-01-2010, 23:42
A couple quick armies that typically dominate:
IG "hull" spam, that is throwing as many armor 12 vehicles on the board as possible, with a few Leman Russes to back them up. The most recent 'Ard boyz winner was the so called "Leaf blower" list, and he used this method.

Chaos lash with oblit/Plague marine spam: What you've been hearing about for years now.

Ork Nob Bikers: yeah, the other one you've been hearing about. Orks also have the Battle Wagon rush, all with defrollas, and the Green Tide.

Eldar Dual Bike Council: Yeap, the other other one you've been hearing about.

Space Marine Land Raider Spam: Land Raiders to the max, have fun.

Nidzilla: Wiill very soon be vanishing (in it's current iteration, at least!) because of the new book.

I'm sure I've left out a few, but those are the most notable lists.

d

XenosVanquisher
09-01-2010, 23:54
I can't ever see myself getting into the tournament scene in a great way - it seems that most of the winning forces seem to consist of cheese. They can't be faulted for their lists, though - they play to win and win effectively I guess.

I just hate when I see guys rolling out cheesy lists in local clubs and stores.

Reinholt
10-01-2010, 00:04
From my perspective, if we are going to assume we have skilled players and both players are taking all-comers lists with the primary intent being to win, I think you don't need to look beyond actual tournament results for the lists that work:

1 - Imperial Guard (alpha strike / template spam / mech, usually)

2 - Orks (nob bikerz and the green tide)

3 - Chaos (dual lash / oblits / plague marines )

4 - Eldar (mech, as always)

Those would be my top tier choices.

Now, in the next tier of "competitive with the right build and a bit of luck", I'd have Marines, Dark Eldar, Daemons, Tyranids (the current, not the new), and Witch Hunters. So all of those are plausible to do well in my eyes.

Also... calling "cheese" in a gameplay based tournament, like 'ard boyz, (short of people actually cheating, which I am strongly and entirely against) is like saying someone is "too talented" in a painting competition, to be fair.

Mannimarco
10-01-2010, 00:06
always ask what your opponent is using when playing in a store or club, we've all been there with our fun 'n' fluffy list, it took ages writing up some decent fluff for it and we've developed a nice little backstory for some of our characters and even named our vehicles.....then we get tabled in 3 turns by sombody playing the same list they took to the recent tourny

dont mix lists folks, if your running fun 'n' fluffy play other fun lists, if your a tourny player then say "oh im using my tourny list, its min/maxed to get the best possible build using my dex, im here to win"

both views are perfectly valid but im sure the tourny player doesnt like just walking through a game with no challenge and the fluff player doenst like getting beat with no real chance to fight back

best bet is to write a couple of lists: one fluffy and one maxed out cheesefest, I did and doubled my games (although I do prefer my fluffy armies)

lowrider
10-01-2010, 02:22
mannimarco thats probably the smartest point of view i have seen expressed on the internet regarding the whole fluffy/cheese debate. :)

on topic thought i would say guard are top teir now as the huge quantity of ordnance they can field or the hugely mobile valk spam list are both very difficult to contend with.

magnum12
10-01-2010, 03:11
My thoughts on the tier list. Note that just because an army is top tier does NOT mean its invincible. 40k is at the most balanced state its been at in years, meaning that the actual weight of tiers is not that strong (barring bottom tier). List is only in approximate order. I don't know how well Space Wolves are doing, so they're not represented. Current place of Nids is based off the 4th edition book. Depending on where the Space Wolves are, list is based off an abritary 3 armies per tier slot except mid having 4 with 5 groups. Contested means you can make a strong argument for a different tier (usually with the other contested)

Top: Orks
Imperial Guard
Chaos Space Marines (contested, down)

High: Eldar (contested, up)
Space Marines
Chaos Daemons (contested, down)

Mid: Dark Eldar (contested, up)
Tyranids
Black Templars

Low: Witch Hunters (not that far below mid)
Tau
Blood Angels (definately lower than the other 2)

Bottom: Dark Angels
Daemon Hunters
Necron

Note: If Space Wolves are high tier, than Chaos Daemons are mid tier.

freddieyu
10-01-2010, 03:29
Most armies can do well at the top, the builds have been mentioned above, but I would add jetseer eldar as a strong build too. It is the skill of the player plus luck that will determine a winner...40k is definitely a balanced environment in general.

having said that, what is easier to determine is what is more or less the bottom tier....necrons and pure daemon hunters come into mind, the tau are a bit iffy too but can still win.

S00N3R FR3AK
10-01-2010, 04:56
My thoughts on the tier list. Note that just because an army is top tier does NOT mean its invincible. 40k is at the most balanced state its been at in years, meaning that the actual weight of tiers is not that strong (barring bottom tier). List is only in approximate order. I don't know how well Space Wolves are doing, so they're not represented. Current place of Nids is based off the 4th edition book. Depending on where the Space Wolves are, list is based off an abritary 3 armies per tier slot except mid having 4 with 5 groups. Contested means you can make a strong argument for a different tier (usually with the other contested)

Top: Orks
Imperial Guard
Chaos Space Marines (contested, down)

High: Eldar (contested, up)
Space Marines
Chaos Daemons (contested, down)

Mid: Dark Eldar (contested, up)
Tyranids
Black Templars

Low: Witch Hunters (not that far below mid)
Tau
Blood Angels (definately lower than the other 2)

Bottom: Dark Angels
Daemon Hunters
Necron

Note: If Space Wolves are high tier, than Chaos Daemons are mid tier.

Really the Dark Angel wings do that bad? Also after seeing SW in my club I would venture to say they will be a upper tier.

WinglessVT2
10-01-2010, 05:06
The worst are gunline tau, marines on foot, demonhunters in any build, witchhunters in any build except mech-sisters, necrons in almost all builds, and dark angels in general.

ooglatjama
10-01-2010, 05:09
It's not really armies, more builds.

I would rate them (In no specific order)

Seer mechdar
Nob Biker/Trukk spam Orks
IG airforce
Lash CSM
Green Tide Orks

Arvendragon
10-01-2010, 05:37
And there are always builds.
Ranking by build is probably more effective.

Thigns like:

Top:
MechVets
Leafblower
Dual Lash
Plague + Corn
Dual Council

High:
Nob Bikers
Vulkan
Daemon
Mech Eldar
Mech Marines
Space Wolves
Mech Dark Eldar
Nidzilla

Mid:
Mech Tau
Mech Sisters
Blood Angels "Venn Diagram of Death"
Horde Orks/Tyranids/Imperial Guard
Black Templar
Death-Raven/Greenwing
Stealer Shock
GK Raider Spam

Low:
Most themed armies
Foot Eldar/Dark Eldar
Horde Sisters
Space Marine Bikers

Bottom:
Deathwing
Iyaden
Pure Chaos God
Pure Jump Pack
Dark Angels
Ravenwing
Gunline (besides IG)
Necrons

noobzilla
10-01-2010, 07:04
I just played in a tournament where Necrons dominated the tournament. They really aren't that bad if a competent player uses them with a competent list.

WinglessVT2
10-01-2010, 07:48
Yes, they really are, but if the opposition is weak, and the necron commander is strong, he'll sweep the floor, just like he'd do if he was fielding dark angels, foot orks, foot marines, pure gray knights, or any of the other weak builds/lists/books.

Thud
10-01-2010, 14:13
I just played in a tournament where Necrons dominated the tournament. They really aren't that bad if a competent player uses them with a competent list.

IMHO, the thing that most likely happened there is the only thing Necrons have going for them right now; the out-of-left-field surprise factor. Think about it, Necrons are so bad, so horrible and so little played that they have more or less disappeared from the metagame. So what do you do if you find yourself facing a Necron army in a tournament?


My general power-rating (this assumes the armies are being played by good players):

Top:
Eldar, IG, SW.

Mid-high:
DE, SM, CSM, Tau, BT

Mid-low:
Tyranids, Orks, BA

Bottom:
Necrons, DA, WH, DH, Daemons.

rmthedude
10-01-2010, 14:16
Top 5:

1.Eldar
2. Chaos Marines
3. Orks
4. Imperial Guard
5. Daemons

But really it depends on the player. A strong list will only get you so far.

itcamefromthedeep
10-01-2010, 15:36
And there are always builds.
Ranking by build is probably more effective.
Agreed. I'd like to make some minor adjustments and clarifications to your list.

Things like:

Top: (unsporting for anything except the most competitive environment)
MechVets/Leafblower/Air Cavalry (variations on a theme)
Dual Lash
Dual Council
Nobz in Battlewagonz

High: (very difficult to deal with of you aren't prepared)
Nob Bikers
Vulkan/Shrike/Kantor Mech Marines
Mechanized Space Wolves
FateCrusher
Mech Eldar
Marine Land Raider Spam
Mech Dark Eldar (this depends a lot on player skill, up or down)
Nidzilla (6 or 7 TMCs + Zoanthropes/Warriors)
Green Tide

Mid: (your average veteran on vet's night)
Most mixed armies
Horde of Kans
Ironclad Spam
Mech Tau
Mech Sisters
Blood Angels "Venn Diagram of Death" (Dante and Corbulo)
Black Templar (most builds)
Doublewing Dark Angels
'Stealer Shock
Grey Knight Land Raider Spam
Speed Freeks (?)

Low: (new guys and vets looking for a change of pace)
Pure Infantry Imperial Guard
Necron Army-in-a-box
Most themed armies
Infantry Eldar
Horde Sisters
Tyranid Horde (no TMCs)
Deceiver/Destroyer Necrons

Bottom: (make sure you know what you're getting into)
Infantry Dark Eldar
Deathwing
Ravenwing
Power-armored Dark Angels
Iyanden
Pure Jump Pack
Grey Knight Infantry
Gunline (besides IG)

druchii
10-01-2010, 22:03
Blood Angels "Venn Diagram of Death"


What's this?

d

xerxeshavelock
10-01-2010, 22:35
What's this?

d

What he said!

Some kind of 2 Assault/Death Co nastiness perhaps?

GirathonB
10-01-2010, 22:54
What's this?

d

It's where the army takes Corbulo and Dante as their HQ choices, and everything in the overlapping 12" radius of their effects gets Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy. Anyone within 6" of Corbulo can be saved by the Ensanguinator, and all Enemies within 6" of Dante get -1 to their WS and BS.

itcamefromthedeep
10-01-2010, 23:46
I didn't recognize the term at first either. I only figured it out because I've played against that army before. As I recall, I lost. I only had a show army with me, so it was made up of models that look good rather than the most effective choices. Still a good game.

Fobster
11-01-2010, 05:31
IMHO, the thing that most likely happened there is the only thing Necrons have going for them right now; the out-of-left-field surprise factor. Think about it, Necrons are so bad, so horrible and so little played that they have more or less disappeared from the metagame. So what do you do if you find yourself facing a Necron army in a tournament?


My general power-rating (this assumes the armies are being played by good players):

Top:
Eldar, IG, SW.

Mid-high:
DE, SM, CSM, Tau, BT

Mid-low:
Tyranids, Orks, BA

Bottom:
Necrons, DA, WH, DH, Daemons.

Very true. When I put my Orc and goblins on the table these days people forget how to play against them.