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shadowprince
01-02-2006, 23:16
Ok well I am board of waiting for new tactic posts so i decided to start a new one every week, to put in some of my ideas on tactics:D Hope they help.

Today will be on a new use for elf scouts.

Recently I was in a tournament, and came across a charoit heavy orc army. As I always come useing scouts if the army has any I dawned on me a new use for these nice little skirmishers, chariot holders.

Now as most people will not expect primarily shooting scouts such as shades and shadow warriors to charge something they can't realistically harm they tend to ignore this, especially in the intermidiate range of tactica generals.

So as my poor elf bloch of spearmen was going to be charged by a orc chariot with scythed wheels I decided to try and hold the thing for a bit. So I charge my elf scouts into the back of the chariot. As they were unit strength five they got the combat rez for the flank, and the combat rez for outnumbering. Starting me off at plus three. And as orks only are strength three they didn't manage to kill anything with two strength three attacks.

So shadow's tactic of the day is, that scouts can be used to charge certian chariots.

Chariots that work to charge, orc, elf, goblin, tombking,
Chariots not to charge, any chaos, or a black coach.

Good scouting units for the tactic, elfs, dire wolfs in a vancarstian list, Skaven gutter runers.
Hope this helps someone. :D

sigur
02-02-2006, 00:15
Nice post, thanks shadowprince. This is again an example for the principle of "CR over kills" which is very, very important in WHFB as I learned in my first few games and which makes a big difference to close combat in 40k.

In my latest game, I charged the Anvil of Doom first with a DE Noble (with Lance) on a Dark Pegasus. I rolled badly, didn't kill a thing, the dwarfen crew also didn't kill the Noble, my Noble lost close combat and almost fled off the board!

Next turn, I charged the Anvil again, this time with the remnants of a unit of Dark Riders (2 to be exact) including a Noble (Lance), again, the dwarfen crew killed a Rider, Noble killed a Dwarf, but again, CR was against me as well as my dice, the Noble and his friend fled.

That all because of US.

samw
02-02-2006, 01:08
I'm confused, how exactly was the CR against you? Noble on pegasus=US4, +1 darkrider=US6 in total.

Sambojin
02-02-2006, 02:07
You dont add US together do you? I thought that a US 4 unit and a US 2 unit in combat equalled US 4 (the highest). The pegasus shouldnt have been able to join the dark rider because it flies (characters cannot join units of flyers, and flying monsters cannot join units I think?). So I think it would have still been a US 4 combat.

Oh, and always remember that US and static combat res are calculated at the start of combat, not after casualties.

Zonq
02-02-2006, 03:46
Yes you add up the US if several units are in the same combat.

For the combat resolution, only ranks are calculated at the start of combat. US, flanking, banners, magic items (read War Banner), and all the remaining static combat resolution are calculated after removing casualties.

Zonq

Bjoernes
02-02-2006, 07:26
For the combat resolution, only ranks are calculated at the start of combat.

Hi!

Could you please specify from where you have this.... In my opinion all modifiers to calculate combat results are counted after the fighting is done.... So if you start with a unit of 5x4 and sustain 2 casualties, you would have a rank bonus of 2 when calculating the combat result....

Greetings

sparks
02-02-2006, 11:25
no, ranks are definitely counted before attacks are done. outnumbering is afterwards. (sorry can't give a definitive quote there!)

Latro
02-02-2006, 13:06
Rulebook, page 73 is what you're looking for.


And for my contribution to the "charge a chariot" tactics:

- Why not charge that nasty Chariot of Khorne from behind with some scouts/skirmishers/flyers? The Chariot will probably win (hard to damage and 4 strength 5 attacks), but when you break it will have to pursue ... right back to the place it came from.

Happened to me once ... very annoying when that slow bugger loses valuable turns that way.

:cool:

Obeisance
02-02-2006, 13:47
Another tip.

If you get charged in the flank or rear and you reduce the enemy to under US5, they no longer claim the flank or rear bonus as it's counted at the end of combat.

Which is when your ranks are calculated. I mean, think about it. Two units smash into each other. Savage fighting. Everyone is equal?

No. No. No.

Ranks are calculated at the end.

Danger Rat
02-02-2006, 13:56
Sparks is right, ranks are counted at the start of combat and outnumbering is at the end.

Morph
02-02-2006, 14:24
Ranks before. Outnumber after. Totally unintuitive but that's the way the rules go.

Anyway, back to topic. I totally agree! When it comes to declaring charges think of every possible charge you could do, and what the outcome is likely to be. Even for charges where you know you will lose the overall combat think if it gains you in any other way. Will it draw an enemy unit out of position? Can you do enough wounds to kill a wizard? Can the combat hold up an enemy unit for a turn or two?

Unusual charging (and other tactics) can often throw an enemy off balance a bit. You tend to imagine how things will progress and when there is a change in the expected it can worry people.

shadowprince
02-02-2006, 14:50
as stated this tactic is not against chaos chariots. or one in which the horse and riders have a high strength, this tactic will not work against something like that

DarkTerror
02-02-2006, 18:32
It's not just ranks which are done at the beginning of combat. All combat results except for outnumbering is at the start of combat.

EvC
02-02-2006, 18:33
It should just about hold up against a Tuskgor chariot, which is good for me... I'll have to give it a try!

Your Mum Rang
02-02-2006, 18:46
I can see my 9 Furies being quite useful for this as they have decent WS.

Mad Makz
03-02-2006, 00:47
Moreover with this tactic, even if the Elves lose, the opposing unit will need to restrain to not pursue if they flee, which mean effectively you are still forcing a leadership on the opposing unit OR holding it up either way (yes, the leadership test for restraint isn't as good as a break test, but irrespectively it does pull the opposing unit out of it's battle line, which is the main effect you are going for.)

shadowprince
03-02-2006, 04:59
hmm never thought this idea would be so liked

WiCkEdRock
03-02-2006, 06:52
I do this all the time with my goblin wolf riders/chariots against the slow fools on chariots I usually face. :D Even Tomb Kings, although it's pretty much 50/50 if I'm gonna charge or not. Chaos I might attack, if it's not against the front and they're not Khorne. If it looks really menacing to the rest of my army I charge anyway.