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View Full Version : Kharn the Betrayer vs. Lucius the Eternal



Lord Zsinj
02-02-2006, 03:38
I don't know if this has been discussed before, so here goes. We all know the fluff for Lucius. He is Slaanesh's favorite champion. If he is killed, his killer becomes Lucius. But what if his killer is Khorne's favored champion, Kharn? Or maybe Typhus? What happens then? Just a totally random thought.

Strikerkc
02-02-2006, 04:20
It's just one of those things that GW doesn't go into. In theory those champions would never meet on the field of battle. If there was a clash big enough between the chaos forces to warant them meeting face to face, then it means that a major pile has hit the fan and the 40K universe as we know it has already been destroyed ;).

Ouroboros
02-02-2006, 04:36
Khorne's a much more powerful god than Slaanesh so I'd say the possession thing gets blocked, especially since it's pseudo sorcery.

dugaal
02-02-2006, 04:40
The Chaos gods are always in contention, so i see no reason their followers would not come to blows, at least outside of a black crusade or some such pact. It is quite likely Kharn would search out other formidible warriors of other gods just to add them to the pile. Add in whether or not he is aware of lucius power, and whether Khorne could protect Kharn from its effects.

Kradle
02-02-2006, 05:37
Yeah I'd like to think that Khorne would look after Kharn coz the whole "his slayer becomes Lucius" just freaks the hell out of me! I'm much more in favour of Khorne simple kill until your killed regime! much simpler and less freaky!!

Kradle

hootier
02-02-2006, 05:41
The question is moot, of course. Between the Lash of Torment and Warp Scream, Lucious would have no problem at all dispatching Kharn.

CauCaSus
02-02-2006, 06:26
Without remembering their rules or having the codex at hand, I believe, Kharn is better at killing hordes of troops, while Lucius is better at taking out other characters. In other words, Kharn would get his butt kicked.

If going just by the fluff though, who knows. Which is how it should be.

Havoc
02-02-2006, 09:08
It would be even, remember Kharn is weapon skill 7 which if I remember correctly the highest weapon skill for any space marine chaos or not, fluff wise kharn would win and slanesh couldnt do anything about it because Khorne would just bithc slap him for trying to make his champion turn into lucius

Lastie
02-02-2006, 09:22
While it'd never happen in fluff I reckon Kharn'll get his ass handed to him. Slaaneshi champions are usually nastier in close combat than Khornate ones anyway (the whole intelligence vs. mindless slaughter).

Anvils Hammer
02-02-2006, 10:21
kharn is a frothing maniac, lucius is described as one of the most gifted fighters ever.
its like comparing a heavy weight boxer with a chair to a japanese kung fu master wielding a katana.

i still think kharn would win though, WS7 means he must be actually more skilled than lucius, expecially with gore child.

buried_alive
02-02-2006, 11:30
hmmm............. maybe not Lucius has a doom siren, 2 power weapons, 4+invincible, warp scream and against Kharn he would have a minimum of 5 attacks (thats assuming he doesnt get the charge)

Slaanesh b$$$h slapped Khaine, Khorne couldnt save his fellow war god so a mere champion has no chance

Vosk
02-02-2006, 11:59
hmmm............. maybe not Lucius has a doom siren, 2 power weapons, 4+invincible, warp scream and against Kharn he would have a minimum of 5 attacks (thats assuming he doesnt get the charge)

Slaanesh b$$$h slapped Khaine, Khorne couldnt save his fellow war god so a mere champion has no chance

I think people are underestimating Kharn's prowess a little. If his skills were so lackluster some mighty champion would have offed him by now.

And I hope you are not suggesting that Slaanesh can compete with Khorne in terms of power... Hell, the Chaos Codex itself explains that Slaanesh is the weakest of the Chaos powers and his energies will be exhausted long before those of Khorne, :p

Wargamejunkie
02-02-2006, 12:43
Well, you also have to know that for you to turn to Lucius you have to draw pleasure from the killing of him. Just one of those little stickler things, so as long as what ever killed him was basically nuts or mindless, you wouldnt have a problem. Now you have to consider if Kharn is Mindless or not.

As far as skill I would have to say Kharn if for nothing else that he is the greatest champion of Khorne THE god of martial Prowess. As far as him being turned, as stated before that seems to be sorcery and I doubt khorne would let that pass.

Dakkagor
02-02-2006, 14:01
Kharns pleasure from the act would be somewhat fleeting, I think. But he does have alot of anti psyker/magic stuff (A collar of khorne iirc?) wether he woudl notice he just hacked of some guys head is an entirely different question, the guys as crazy as a rabid dog.

Phyros
02-02-2006, 14:06
Khorne wouldn't care who won, as long as he gets his skull and the blood flows. If Kharn dies or get possessed...oh well....there are lots of other Khornate Champions that can be elevated.

Brothergrimm
02-02-2006, 16:20
There's a short story out there about kharn faceing a champion of slaneesh and lets just say kharn has to focus a lot of power to not succumb to the offers made to him.

he wins in the end but if it had been lucius maybe not.

Vanger
02-02-2006, 16:48
Sooo, let's see. Kharn has been raised from death by Khorne one time for sure, but maybe twice or so.

Lucius on the other hand is expected to die very often, because Slanesh gave him that frickin special power not without a good reason.

And in the end everyone in the WH40K universe is strengthening Khorne, god of slaughter, with every kill. So Khorne should have the power to show the middle finger to Slanesh baby if Lucious wants to possess his/her/its champion.

Stu
02-02-2006, 17:10
However there is always a way to know.
I'll try to convince my brother to go for a round of knocking heads between Kharn and Lucius.Let's say as rules start at 18' and best of 5 combats with no terrain, roll to see who gets first turn, and just to be on the safe side we'll change sides after the first five combats.
I'll post the results here tomorrow.

I think in the story it would be a draw with something cataclistic separating them before the end and I don't think GW would ever do anything like making them fight each other.

gitburna
02-02-2006, 17:47
40k3 and 4 doesnt really cover this well enough.. I think you'd have to have a good look at porting their abilities into 2nd edition and having a look at them then.

My personal feeling is that Kharn would probably win, but he would probably do it while lucius was gloating over his victory, you know..being all poncey and "typical bad guy" instead of just finishing him.

since Kharn alreadyhas 2nd edition stats, it shouldnt be too difficult to make upsomething for lucius.

I might have a look at doing that tonight

skyfyre
02-02-2006, 21:38
They are both in codex csm actually. Ok, so in a straight up 1 on 1 fight, going with perfectly average dice rolls, here is how it would play out.

Both have equal initiative, and attacks, but Lucius is stronger, and Kharn hits better/has more attacks on a charge which he will most likely get since Kharn is also faster. Collar of Khorne will negate Lucius' doomsiren every turn on a 2+, therefore most likely he will get little/no use of it at all. The main thing is Lucius has that awesome invuln save though and combat drugs, whereas Kharn has nothing to block power weapon shots.

If Kharn gets the charge, which he most likely will, he opens up with on average 6.5 attacks, 5.4 hits, 2.7 wounds, and Lucius will most likely fail 50% of those, which results in about 1.35 actual wounds this round inflicted thanks to the extra attacks.

On the other hand, Lucius gets 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 1.6 wounds, which Kharn has no save against. Things get even worse thanks to fueled by pain, which will contribute on average another attack, resulting in an extra 0.32 wounds per round bringing his average to a very nice 1.92 wounds per combat round. Kharn gets NO save at all since Lucius has power weapons, so these translate directly into wounds inflicted. Things just go downhill from here as Lucius is statistically superior to Karn thanks to that invulnerable armor save and combat drugs, which Kharn doesn't get.

Thus, Karn would probably take 2 wounds first round, Lucius would most likely take one. After that Lucius will probably deal another two wounds whereas Kharn would most likely deal 1, at the same time. Oh dear, we forgot combat drugs. Lucius can ignore the first failed armor save from any weapon in assault as long as it doesn't cause instant death. If I'm playing Lucius, "yes please", that's just what the doctor ordered. He could add more abilities, but he doesn't need to in order to win. He's already winning, heck, why should he risk overdosing?

If you take that into consideration, it appears Kharn can't cause much damage at all except for the first round! Now the battle goes like this: Kharn takes 2 wounds and has about a 1 in 3 chance to deal a single wound... 2nd round, Kharn would be very lucky to inflict even a single wound, and dies as all 4 of his wounds are more than likely expended at this point.

To add further insult to injury, Lucius would probably get to pop off a few shots with the plasma pistol as Kharn closes, making him even more likely to be mincemeat before the 2nd round even starts. Kharn would most likely not get to shoot at all since blood rage prevents this. Bah!

Yeah yeah, luck and dice rolls are always a factor, but if you do the math, Kharn is a HUGE underdog. Everyone gets lucky once in a while but over the long run Kharn will get beat down repeatedly while Lucius will rack up an impressive win record. If you don't believe me, take 2 models and run the combat yourself a few times.

Morale of the story: Pleasure and pain beats savage skill. Only in the world of 40k. As a consolation of sorts though to those who favor the blood god, Kharn is cheaper. And cooler :)

Eulenspiegel
02-02-2006, 22:17
Well then, could KhÔrn beat the Hulk?

/trollmode off

Kradle
03-02-2006, 00:14
Hell yeah Kharn could beat the hulk! the Hulk is a pussy! Now Wolverine is a different matter (the whole adamantine bones.. yeh good luck Gorechild!!)

Back on topic. Hows this sound. Kharn gets killed by Lucius, The city collapses on Lucius and he dies and consequently cant posses the buildings. Then Khorne does his thing, revives Kharn (again) Kharn clambers out of the ruins and goes off to slaughter things!!

Meanwhile Lucius is there begging Slaanesh to revive him but Slaanesh is too weak to do jack about it coz if he revives him then he expends his remaining power so Khorne can sit there and laugh at the weak midget of a Chaos god as he continues to revive Kharn!!

*ahem* sorry. I just dont like Slaanesh. It wont happen again!

Kradle

ZigZagMan
03-02-2006, 03:54
Eh, just kill lucious off with a necron or tyranid, neither of them would feel pride over killing him and therefore never become him.

skyfyre
03-02-2006, 04:41
Mike Ditka > Lucius > Kharn > Other stuff > Grot > Nothing is worse than a grot. Except maybe the Hulk. Jury is out on that one.

Tanith Ghost
03-02-2006, 04:48
Hulk? Hulk who just gets more ticked off the more you hit him? Yeah. Sure.
It's like THIS, boyo. Hulk>everything else> grots.

Kradle
03-02-2006, 06:05
If I knew what you were talking about I'm sure id agree. But if your putting the Hulk infront of a Grot... :wtf: Grots are cooler than the Hulk.. They are born green and they dont have stupid indestructable pants (makes me think the Hulk is hiding something!!)

Kradle

warmasterbubba
03-02-2006, 06:35
Stats wise, it's Luci hands down. They made Kharn a chump this edition. All he can do is hack up guardsmen. I remember when Kharn was a smoke wagon and could go toe to toe with anyone, not just hack sissies up like some dumbass butcher. Fluff wise, Kharn would win. Actually it depends on if you go by the new(trash) fluff, or the older(good) fluff.

Stu
03-02-2006, 08:37
Ok test results say that Lucius wins 8-1 (I didn't bother to do the last game because the only one Kharn won was mostly due to luck and an extra wound inflicted by shooting ).
I must say that the invunerable save+combat drugs+warp scream confer a great advantage to Lucius that will have 5A+1A (2ccw)+1A drugs+1A if he charges that will hit first and at strenght 6.The invunerable save and the drug that says you discard the first wound that round also give him increased durability.
The lack of invunerable save for Kharn is one of his problems the other was that the blood rage just made him more vunerable to be charged instead of charging.
The winner is Lucius.

PS: does anyone know what chaos armour is?It appears in Kharn's wargear however it isn't described anywhere else in the codex so I asumed that as usual they didn't check their mistakes and where talking about daemon armour...Oh well Khorne should get a new Exalted Champion I think

skyfyre
03-02-2006, 19:54
Ok test results say that Lucius wins 8-1 (I didn't bother to do the last game because the only one Kharn won was mostly due to luck and an extra wound inflicted by shooting ).
I must say that the invunerable save+combat drugs+warp scream confer a great advantage to Lucius that will have 5A+1A (2ccw)+1A drugs+1A if he charges that will hit first and at strenght 6.The invunerable save and the drug that says you discard the first wound that round also give him increased durability.
The lack of invunerable save for Kharn is one of his problems the other was that the blood rage just made him more vunerable to be charged instead of charging.
The winner is Lucius.

PS: does anyone know what chaos armour is?It appears in Kharn's wargear however it isn't described anywhere else in the codex so I asumed that as usual they didn't check their mistakes and where talking about daemon armour...Oh well Khorne should get a new Exalted Champion I think

I'm not positive but I believe collar of Khorne negates warp scream on a 2+ every round. I may be wrong in my interpretation though. Even then, Lucius still doesn't even need it, the invulnerable save + combat drugs is more than enough to pwn Kharn.

In Kharn's profile it says he has a 2+ armor save so I believe this would be the chaos equivalent of artificer armor?

brother_fandango
03-02-2006, 20:47
i think chuck norris would just roundabout kick both lucis and kahrn and figure hes better than both, thus feeling no pride in it, thus not turning into lucis. and if kharn tried to get back up, chuck norris would just roundabout kick him again.

Sons of Russ
05-02-2006, 02:30
While I agree that the TT stats would have Kharn lose as he is better as slaughtering masses of troops, I think fluff wise he is more powerful.


So here's how it goes down. Kharn and Lucius beat the crap out of each other, Kharn eventually kills Lucius.

As Lucius tries to take over Kharns body, Gorechild senses its master's moment of weakness and promptly chops Kharn up into bite-sized pieces.


Khorne laughs (more blood and skulls)

Slaneesh stratches his head (and realizes his curse/gift wasn't quite so clever)


The end.

And that, my friends, is why this encounter will never happen in the fluff.

Shaper Shakra
05-02-2006, 02:48
Seeing as how there is a 16 point difference in the two, Kharn gets Deamonic Aura (5+ invul. save). Cause I said so.

onnotangu
06-02-2006, 04:02
Vin diesel vs. Chuck norris vs. Kharn vs. Lucius
the universe implodes.

Twisted Ferret
06-02-2006, 04:24
Ahriman would pwn them all.


Who's Tzeentch's Official Champion?

Lord Zsinj
06-02-2006, 04:35
Ok, so basically, the consesus is that Kharn would not turn into Lucius when he won?

Arryn
06-02-2006, 06:21
********. Of course he will