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Dartzstrong
10-01-2010, 14:43
OK I play Warriors of Chaos (Completely Nurgle) and I'm up against a big 'un. 2 Plague Furnaces, and huge units of plague monks.

Would cloying quagmire be able to take down the plague furnaces since they have a wounds value?

What is suggested to take these things down with nurgle?

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
10-01-2010, 16:29
Flank charge. If you hit the unit the Furnace is in with a flank or rear charge, then the Furnace doesn't get the chance to fight at all. You will also destroy the unit's rank bonus (a must for Skaven), and get to slap around a bunch of WS3 S3 T4 Monks with no armor.

Shield of Freedom
10-01-2010, 16:32
You'll have to grind them down with attrition. Although with with enough attacks it wont' take but 2 or three turns. But, you WILL have to kill them all. With that furnace, whether or not it's in base to base with the enemy, the monks pushing it are unbreakable.

Bladelord
10-01-2010, 16:36
Maybe snipe the Plague Priests down, or maybe that won´t change the situation at all:S

Havock
10-01-2010, 16:47
Doesn't half of the stuff pestilens relies on work less or not at all versus mark of nurgle? Or is that ye olde stuff and left out of this newfangled armybook?

PeG
10-01-2010, 16:54
Or kill it in combat its T6, 5 wounds. Especially if you have been able to soften it up a bit before (buboes? either you hurt the 2W priest or you put a wound in the furnace) you have access to several heroes, knights, chosen, monsters etc that should be able to do damage to it. As have been said if you flank charge you will start by hitting monks and if that is a good thing or not depends on what you charge it with.

What happens when the priest dies is a matter for discussion until FAQed. It can be argued that the furnace should be a monstruos mount and in that case it is a monster if the priest dies and would then have to leave the unit. Personally I think this is a bit stupid but something should happen then the priest dies and its up to GW and the FAQ to find a balanced way of dealing with the question (not sure about the probability if this happening though).

The positive thing is that 2 furnaces means fewer rats to kill :) and more rats would probably be worse for an elite army such as WoC.

Havock
10-01-2010, 16:59
Not really, we can actually chew through hordes quite nicely.
Especially the frenzied knights. And the frenzied horseflails.

Dartzstrong
10-01-2010, 19:57
But would cloying quagmire work on a furnace?

Leth Shyish'phak
10-01-2010, 21:19
Thats the initiative test/armour save or die, right?

It wouldn't work, because the furnace can't pass its armour save (since it doesn't have one).

AtmaTheWanderer
10-01-2010, 23:56
What happens when the priest dies is a matter for discussion until FAQed. It can be argued that the furnace should be a monstruos mount and in that case it is a monster if the priest dies and would then have to leave the unit. Personally I think this is a bit stupid but something should happen then the priest dies and its up to GW and the FAQ to find a balanced way of dealing with the question (not sure about the probability if this happening though).

Anyone gaming club that would abandon simple logic for the insanity of this "RAW" quirk needs to be slapped and forced to play a game with rules that aren't often ambigious or quirky, like chess or checkers.

I honor rules oddities that can be argued to make sense, like no other characters in the Bell/Furnace unit (an oddity, but sure), but the idea that "OH CRAP, The Grey Seer died! Quickly, everyone abandon this altar of our most sacred (and extremely petty and vindictive!) deity to the enemy!" is just silly.

Sygerrik
12-01-2010, 01:16
I'm pretty sure I'm the Skaven player (did you play Daemons of Tzeentch today and not have a chance to play me, so we rescheduled for Thursday?)

Good luck. Remember that it grants the unit it's with MR2 and makes them Unbreakable. And note that a Furnace is not a monstrous mount. Neither is the Bell. Monstrous mounts cannot join units. Both Furnace and Bell are, to quote the book, "special kind[s] of mount[s]" that are neither normal nor monstrous.

danny-d-b
12-01-2010, 07:58
I'm pretty sure I'm the Skaven player (did you play Daemons of Tzeentch today and not have a chance to play me, so we rescheduled for Thursday?)

Good luck. Remember that it grants the unit it's with MR2 and makes them Unbreakable. And note that a Furnace is not a monstrous mount. Neither is the Bell. Monstrous mounts cannot join units. Both Furnace and Bell are, to quote the book, "special kind[s] of mount[s]" that are neither normal nor monstrous.

incorect

monstrous mounts can join units (stegs and carasors come to mind)
flying mounts can't join units (weather they are monstrous or not)
e.g. disks of tzzench, pegersus and dragons can't join units
caracter ridden stegs and carasors can

Sygerrik
12-01-2010, 17:28
incorect

monstrous mounts can join units (stegs and carasors come to mind)
flying mounts can't join units (weather they are monstrous or not)
e.g. disks of tzzench, pegersus and dragons can't join units
caracter ridden stegs and carasors can

Fair enough, although the Bell and Furnace are still referred to as "special" within the books, and lack M, WS, BS, I, A, and LD. I suppose we'll have to wait for the FAQ, though I'd be shocked if they turned out to be monstrous mounts, given how much rewriting that would require.

snottlebocket
13-01-2010, 10:44
Doesn't a strength 7 attack wreck the bell / furnace? If so you should have a hoot with dragon ogres.

Lord Khabal
13-01-2010, 10:55
Charging the furnace on the flank is a bad move, since the unit is unbreakable until the furnace is destroyed. so you will have to kill 20+ plague monks just to get there, so it will take some turns, and you may get charged in the flank by the plague cencers, if the skaven player knows what hes doing. Charge it head on with DOgres or frenzied knights and smash it apart in 2 turns...
Beware of wrecker attack and the fumes though... Its not an easy match. However the furnace dies very easily to shooting, especialy skinky shooting, as I found out this past weekend :(

Przemcio251
13-01-2010, 13:30
Question:) Dose Killing Blow work on the Furnace??? or Steam Tank if i may be asking:)

danny-d-b
13-01-2010, 14:15
I don't think so

killing blow only effect US 1 and US 2- not above

Przemcio251
13-01-2010, 14:51
So it will not work on a dragon???

Valaraukar
13-01-2010, 15:02
Nope, can't remember if it works on the guy riding it though as in most ways they are treated as a single model with a high US but you can direct cc attacks.

Przemcio251
13-01-2010, 15:08
now this sucks... i hope it works on the rider... any way how WOC can kill a steam tank or skink shaman riding an engine???

Lord Khabal
13-01-2010, 15:09
Dragon Ogres?

Sygerrik
13-01-2010, 16:54
KB will work on riders. STanks, no, because they are a single model with a combined profile. Steam Tanks are kind of a nightmare to deal with if the Empire player is using them properly, but charging them with some S7+ models is a good start-- just be prepared that if you whiff, you are almost certainly going to lose that unit next turn. Kholek Suneater is actually pretty good at killing them, but the trouble is making it across the board, since any army that takes Steam Tanks also takes at least 3-4 cannons, and they'll all be trained directly at your big guy.

Witchblade
13-01-2010, 18:02
now this sucks... i hope it works on the rider... any way how WOC can kill a steam tank or skink shaman riding an engine???
It's considered rude to hijack threads.

Przemcio251
14-01-2010, 06:37
hijack??? i just expanded the question;)

Azethel
14-01-2010, 14:43
hijack??? i just expanded the question;)

Its a pretty big hijack...

On that task at hand...I had a game where i set up a brilliant combo charge (if I do say so myself) using dogs to draw the frenzied unit to expose its flank so that I could hit it with CK (in the flank) and chosen in the front. I did 20 wounds to the rats and priest in the first turn (the unit pushing it was 30 strong) and yet it took another 4 rounds to destroy it and i lost half of each unit to failed toughness tests. My problem was I couldnt bring enough high S attacks to bear on the furnace to kill it and the rats were not going anywhere.

My advice is to hit it in the flank with chaos knights using mara horsemen/dogs to easilly draw it out and hit the front with something like dragon ogres or even a shaggoth with GW and try deal as many S7+ attacks to the furnace. Soon as the furnace is dead then you wont have to chew through the rest of the 30 odd rats.

Failing that just lead the unit into terrain or kite it around with dogs/marahorsemen...though I think the unit is worth killing as its 300+ points

A Hell cannon could do some damage especially if you get lucky with the S10 hit with D6 wounds.

Leth Shyish'phak
14-01-2010, 21:09
Since the furncae is US5 (or 6, I can't remember), Infernal Gateway and Flickering Fire can target it separately from the plague monks. :)

Just noticed someone said it has MR2, which might cause problems for Flickering Fire, but probably won't worry Infernal Gateway so much.

I imagine that Kholek would cause a lot of problems for it, hitting it in the front with Dragon Ogres would also be a good idea, or a giant. A Chaos Lord on a Dragon would also kill it, particularly if wielding the Hellfire Sword (which also helps a lot against Hellpit Abominations and there isn't anything in the Skaven army which you really need a lot of armour save modification for, S5 is fine). Hellcannons should also cause it some problems (no look out sir due to its US). Even a Chaos Lord or Exalted Champion with a great weapon shouldn't take too long to kill it in combat ( particularly if you can snipe the champion with a nurgle wizard).

WoC really have quite a lot of things to kill the furnace with, if you know its coming.

Dartzstrong
14-01-2010, 21:09
Well I guess I'll never know if the list I came up with would've worked. Someone never showed up for the game...strange.... LOL I had my plans too.

Leth Shyish'phak
14-01-2010, 21:10
Oh well, my post was in time then. :)

Dartzstrong
14-01-2010, 21:59
Ya it was. I knew exactly what to take to have a good chance at victory. oh well. :)

Havock
14-01-2010, 22:31
The hellfire sword is useful in this situation, but I wouldn't shelf out for it really. It's a bit overpriced. Just a bit ;)

As for Kholek: It is a lord special character and lets face it: Anything that does not have a pendant of khaeleth or is a bloodthirster with obsidian armour is going down the moment it gets whacked with that hammer :p

Leth Shyish'phak
15-01-2010, 15:22
The hellfire sword is useful in this situation, but I wouldn't shelf out for it really. It's a bit overpriced. Just a bit ;)

When you're fighting against a furnace and up to two Hellpit Abominations, I imagine that it would be worth the price.


As for Kholek: It is a lord special character and lets face it: Anything that does not have a pendant of khaeleth or is a bloodthirster with obsidian armour is going down the moment it gets whacked with that hammer :p

Which would make it good against the furnace...

Skyldig
19-01-2010, 14:44
Glaive.

Of.

Putrefaction.


That should be simple, shouldn't it? Yeah yeah, the furnace have the toughness tests every skaven turn. So equip the character with the phylactery as well. Juggernaut exalted, shield, glaive and phylactery.

0+ armour save, immune to the toughness tests, will destroy the furnace in 2 turns.

Go with some knights, or anything with T4, charge the front (or if durable enough, take the charge then) and kill it. Kill the priest if you want, but that may delay you for a turn, besides, the priest is useless after the first turn when his flail gets heavy. I would aim the juggernaut at the priest and the glaive at the furnace.

Havock
20-01-2010, 14:10
Toughness test for the unit you say?

Seems like another job for... Nurgle spell nr.5 :p

Havock
20-01-2010, 14:12
When you're fighting against a furnace and up to two Hellpit Abominations, I imagine that it would be worth the price.

Only if you tailor your list.


Which would make it good against the furnace...

Absolutely, but most tourneys around here have some comp restrictions (no lord level named characters, no duplicate rares, no triple specials etc)

Nathangonmad
20-01-2010, 14:16
The hellfire sword is useful in this situation, but I wouldn't shelf out for it really. It's a bit overpriced. Just a bit ;)

As for Kholek: It is a lord special character and lets face it: Anything that does not have a pendant of khaeleth or is a bloodthirster with obsidian armour is going down the moment it gets whacked with that hammer :p

He needs a bat like the scout from TF2, BONK!

Leth Shyish'phak
20-01-2010, 16:03
Only if you tailor your list.


OK I play Warriors of Chaos (Completely Nurgle) and I'm up against a big 'un. 2 Plague Furnaces, and huge units of plague monks.

Would cloying quagmire be able to take down the plague furnaces since they have a wounds value?

What is suggested to take these things down with nurgle?

Sounds like he's wanting to tailor his list here, so I gave advice with that in mind.


Absolutely, but most tourneys around here have some comp restrictions (no lord level named characters, no duplicate rares, no triple specials etc)

Good for them. But thats not what we're discussing here.

Havock
20-01-2010, 17:44
Fair enough, still, nurgle spell nr.5 will work wonders on the furnaces if the monks have to take T tests as well.

Shield of Freedom
31-01-2010, 07:07
Fair enough, still, nurgle spell nr.5 will work wonders on the furnaces if the monks have to take T tests as well.

It would help yes, but the monks are T4 so are only failing 1/3 of them. You're probably used to facing mostly T3 enemies huh?

w3rm
31-01-2010, 14:25
Bait with dogs. Hit in in the flank with 1-2 knight units with a hero or lord in one of them. Kill around 10+ Skaven per turn. Snipe Plague priest with Buboes. You should at least be able to take out one of them.

Jack of Blades
31-01-2010, 14:38
now this sucks... i hope it works on the rider... any way how WOC can kill a steam tank or skink shaman riding an engine???

It works on the rider because the rider isn't US3+. WoC can destroy a ST through using a Shaggoth with a GW who will autohit and wound it pretty easily too, but a unit of Drogres or just Ogres with GWs does just as well. Just point anything with high strength attacks at the ST and it'll go down, preferably multiwound ones. The Engine can be defeated by getting someone with the Axe of Khorne into combat with it and simply killing the priest. I would use a Khorne exalted on Jugger screened by something for this purpose. Alternatively you can equip a Lord with the Hellfire Sword and Collar of Khorne which will give you good chances to kill the Slann as well if he has one, as long as you can weaken his unit enough to get to him.

Edit
31-01-2010, 16:18
the monks only fail their * self inflicted *tough tests on a 6, doesn't matter what their current toughness is, just fyi.