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Heinrich Jäger
20-05-2005, 06:39
I was wondering what you people think will happen to the DA's, or have you heard anything? I mean what are they right now? Vanilla Space Marines with stubborn and a few special characters?

You think they will return the mixed termie squad?
Screw the DA even more?
introduce new units?
Dreads with plasma?

Rich
20-05-2005, 07:54
Its too far in the future to speculate really. You probably have a wait of at least two years, as the BA codex will probably follow Bts as the next marine chapter dex.

Castigator
20-05-2005, 08:24
Well, I can understand your frustration as a Dark Angels player, but from a neutral perspective, Dark Angels have plenty of things going for them as it is.

Besides, as far as heavily gothic, crusader like Chapter, there's also the Templers up and coming.

If you ask me, there are enough other, more differently themed chapters with far less coverage than the DA out there, that would benefit from a bit of lovin (uh..like Iron Hands, White Scars, whatever..)

Inquisitor Engel
20-05-2005, 08:28
This has no place in rumours for the time being, so it's recieving an all expenses paid trip to 40k General.

The Portent Inquisition

Pertinax
20-05-2005, 08:59
Just a quick note: The dreads can take Plasma cannons anyway, according ot eh FAQ.

And what other units should be included?

Darkzeer
20-05-2005, 09:18
The Dark Angels are fine under the current FAQ.

Termie squads function so much better as assault or shooty. Mixing the weapons doesn't work so well.

Infact, Jager is correct that the Dark Angels are not so special. To be honest, they don't need to be. Sure, they have the Ravenwing, but this army can be easily made by taking the correct doctrines and it works out much cheaper and cost effective.

As for plasma cannons on dreadnoughts, you're allowed to field them with the forgeworld rules, so this isn't a problem.

The only thing that needs to be kept is the option to field an all-Deathwing terminator army (the most important part about the Dark Angels).

Melchor
20-05-2005, 09:40
Well Dark Angels aren't so different from Codex Astartes as far as the game goes.
They have 10 companies of 10 squads, have no weird geneseed mutations and are fiercely loyal to the Emperor and their Primarch, the same way as the Ultramarines for example.

What does set them apart is their Dark Secret, the Ravenwing and the Deathwing.
I just want rules to reflect those, some nice Special Characters and maybe some cool wargear.
And of course rules to reflect that *we* are the eldest Legion! :D

Darkzeer
20-05-2005, 09:57
There used to be the 'Hunt the Fallen' rules, but it totally screwed up any game you played.

Besides that, I can't see any 'special rules' that would be suitable for them.

Ravenwing units are overpriced for what are essential bikers and land speeders with 'skilled rider' and a 6+ invulnerable save. I think it works out at +10pts for a 6+ invulnerable save. Obviously, not worth it.

Deathwing units, you pay 5pts per model more for the 'stubborn' ability. But considering how much my deathwing army has to wade through, I know they'd fail some LD tests were it not for this ability.

The Dark Angel holy relics aren't particularly amazing. The banner that allows a unit to fire twice is very nice, but that's about it. Some people like the Sword of Secrets, but it never tempted me.

Yorkiebar
20-05-2005, 10:17
Screwed Dark Angles?
Oh, no, not the Dark Angles! The chaos space marines of wierd geometry!

BAd spelling aside, I think the DA's will be similar to their 3rd edition rules, and merely upadated to fit in with the new Space Marine Codex. I've always liked the idea of the deathwing and ravenwing, but the best part about them for me is that they are allowed to mix normal and assault terminators in the same squad.

Lion El Jason
20-05-2005, 11:08
were allowed to fit normal and assault terminators in the same squad...

Thats something we really need back IMO, especially for pure Deathwing armies.

On the B&C there was an attempt to write a "Fan codex" usually I dont like this sort of thing but due to popular demand I postede it in rules development here on portent.

Grand Warlord
20-05-2005, 12:39
Well as long as they can keep the dark feel the DAs then im ok with pretty much anything they decide to do with it.

I hardly ever rolled a 6 for the 'Hunting the Fallen Special Rule' so that doesnt bother me.

HiveFleetJomama
20-05-2005, 15:10
I'm almost completely fine with the Dark Angels as it is, barring the fact that I have to use so many codexes and PDFs to make a list.

The only thing I really miss from the list is the ability to take an Apothecary in a full Deathwing list. I spent hours converting and painting my guy, and he was nice when you rolled that occasional 1 for that armor save.

C'est la vie, though

Galadrin
21-05-2005, 18:32
Oh, no, not the Dark Angles! The chaos space marines of wierd geometry!

BAd spelling aside, I think the DA's will be similar to their 3rd edition rules, and merely upadated to fit in with the new Space Marine Codex. I've always liked the idea of the deathwing and ravenwing, but the best part about them for me is that they are allowed to mix normal and assault terminators in the same squad.


Ironically.. "Weird"

That was hilarious though, that made my day better : )

sulla
21-05-2005, 20:39
I was wondering what you people think will happen to the DA's, or have you heard anything? I mean what are they right now? Vanilla Space Marines with stubborn and a few special characters?

You think they will return the mixed termie squad?
Screw the DA even more?
introduce new units?
Dreads with plasma?

Hopefully they'll go back to being a codex chapter with no special rules, just two special companies...

Lion El Jason
21-05-2005, 21:04
go back to being...

Not since the RT book have DA been a codex chapter...and thats just because there was not much background for ANY chapters.

The first real Dark Angels stuff was the Ravenwing article in WD97ish.
They were most certainly not a codex chapter.

Shazzam
21-05-2005, 23:17
I think the Dark Angels are far from needing a complete over-haul. But i'm frustrated that the faq that came out after the last SM Codex didn't put them back on track! Not sure about the Ravenwing, but the Deathwing is lacking attention in this latest faq. It could have been this easy; keep mixed weapon squads for Deathwing, allow specialists in command squads for the Deathwing, or at least allow Standards in the Deathwing for gods sake!

Lion El Jason
21-05-2005, 23:28
I too am missing specialists and Mix & Match for my Deathwing, however I think the list itself is more powerful now than it ever has been (Not up to the standards of a propper list but I doubt we'll ever get that).

Ravenwing are still as they ever have been but the cost of bikes still hampers them. Codex chapters are paying too much for bikes and RW are paying WAY over the top of the codex bikers! Cutting RW bikers by 15 points would not be unreasonable. Bikes are just a poor choice and RW need a sereous overhaul to make them worth it (6+inv is a joke). The only way to make the army work is to min/max the ass off it (I use 2x three bikes, 9 landspeeders, 9 attack bikes a techmarine and 2 HQs)

The main DA list does not need a big change, I can wait for a new codex. I just hope we dont get jibbed again (Dark Angels got by far the worst codex in 40k twice running, luckily the current edition codex was a good one)

Ruskins
22-05-2005, 12:11
Mixed termie squads not that effective?

an 8 man squad armed with 2 assault cannons and the rest with lightening claws and given furious charge would be a monster of a unit!

Darkzeer
22-05-2005, 12:21
I see your point.

Deathwing should be allowed mixed squads! :evilgrin:

TheSonOfAbbadon
22-05-2005, 12:21
Oh, no, not the Dark Angles! The chaos space marines of wierd geometry!

Oh that is sooo sigged!

night_haunter
22-05-2005, 20:32
you can't say that DA are screwed since they lost some of their uniqueness. They are going through a transition period. from 3rd ed. to 4th ed. since their codex for 4th ed has not come out yet the are not officially screw yet. Same goes for BA

Lion El Jason
23-05-2005, 10:02
well, seeing as at least one of those chapters is likely to have to wait longer for the codex that the life of the codex I think if the rules were bad they could indeed be called screwed.

Blood angels are still the most powerfu chapter though easily. DA aren't screwed either, not as good as BA butstill a viable list.

Badgobbla
24-05-2005, 13:11
I have the distinct impression that the whole FAQ-thing for all the armies has been done a bit to rapidly and hasn't been well-thought through.

I mean DA with the FAQ are just an ordinary vanilla-chapter with a few overcosted units.

If GW could only think twice about releasing FAQ's that are this bad.

Odin
24-05-2005, 13:20
I mean DA with the FAQ are just an ordinary vanilla-chapter with a few overcosted units.

That's about what we're used to isn't it? "Just give them a couple of mildly useful special rules and charge an extra 10 points per model."

Badgobbla
24-05-2005, 14:06
Come on, they don't even have mildly special rules. The only thing that could qualify as different is the fact that the Deathwing are Stubborn and that's it.

Even vanilla marine tac squads can take a plasma cannon, whereas only the DA used to be able to do this. It's not that I think they need this, but fluffwise it's just cool to know that they're the only chapter with this option.

6th and Final Champion
24-05-2005, 14:17
Blood angels are still the most powerfu chapter though easily. DA aren't screwed either, not as good as BA butstill a viable list.

People are always saying Blood Angels are so powerful. I really dont see it, care to explain why this is widely known except for me?

Lion El Jason
24-05-2005, 14:38
to be fair, they arent some kind of uber-list. They are a bit better than regular though, furious charge, baal predators, death company and all they pay is the possible los of some expesive units

6th and Final Champion
24-05-2005, 16:32
to be fair, they arent some kind of uber-list. They are a bit better than regular though, furious charge, baal predators, death company and all they pay is the possible los of some expesive units

Arent Death Company the ONLY ones who get the furious charge? I may be mistaken but I think so. IF not what is it they get that make them so good?

Ruskins
24-05-2005, 17:01
Thats what really bugs me about the current list for the first legion, Space wolves get a unique list all to thier own and thier own russ varient, black templars get all the wierd vows they could want, thier own land raider varient(now avalable to all) and lots of power weapon options. Blood angels get death company, baal predators, jump packing command squads and elites, extra CC options for tac squads and faster rhinos.

Dark angels get no unique units at all, just a couple with abilities that only really make them expensive and the option of taking an all fast attack or teminator army.

Lion El Jason
24-05-2005, 19:13
I cant post rules here but all blood angels get furious charge, death company get much more

Castigator
24-05-2005, 19:18
Dark angels get no unique units at all, just a couple with abilities that only really make them expensive and the option of taking an all fast attack or teminator army.


So? Thats three or four chapters that get a bit more diversity than the Dark Angles, which still leaves hundreds of chapters (or at least a few dozend more or less official ones) that get alot less than Dark Angels.

The option of making an all terminater army or an all fast attack army and all those special characters is already more than enough for variety for 3 or 4 other chapters stuffed up in one.

t-tauri
24-05-2005, 19:31
Dark angels get no unique units at all, just a couple with abilities that only really make them expensive and the option of taking an all fast attack or teminator army.
I'd have thought that those were what made them unique?

Ruskins
24-05-2005, 20:58
Well i guess it does make them unique in a way, but in a way that lacks character, while the wolves and the BA lists very much represent the ethos behind those 2 armies, just having the option of taking an army of vanilla termies or white Scars painted black doesnt really lend any character to the army, the option of a few uniqe units or abilities in a normal list would make a lot more sense to me, or make the Deathwing list true of the dark angels only, so you couldnt as easily paint them blue and call them the Ultramarines first company.

The ravenwing could use an overhaul to better reflect thier role as fast responce and capture forces, such as sun weapons and net launchers or something, or the option to come on from different board sides or simply making the jink ability a bit more useful.

Astromarine
25-05-2005, 09:15
One thing about the Deathwing list: something is wrong when I, a dedicated Dark Angel, consider it would be more fun, more characterful, and simply *better* to do a Lysander IF list with a few scouts than a DW list. We've already had a huge discussion about this in the DA forum of the B&C, and I posted something there a bit like the following: I consider an army to be characterful when I can take a battle report, erase the army and unit names, show it to some player, and he can tell me which armies are playing that BR. That's the character I want. Some rules or units that make playing DA not quite like playing anything else. As said above, saying "deathwing" is saying little more than "DAs are allowed to waive the requirement for the usual 10 scouts in all-termie armies". The other, psychology-based advantages, are simply not enough.

At this point, I'd be happy if people just folded the DA into a Codex chapter and allowed them a few sets of Chapter Traits, one for each sub-army. It would be less confusing rules-wise, it would be cleaner, and we wouldn't have to go on with this farce of calling them "non-codex". I have nothing against playing a Codex army, just don't make me buy books to do basically that when I already have C:SM.

Odin
25-05-2005, 09:26
So? Thats three or four chapters that get a bit more diversity than the Dark Angles, which still leaves hundreds of chapters (or at least a few dozen more or less official ones) that get alot less than Dark Angels.

Except they can get doctrines which end up making them MORE unique than the DAs.

As for Ravenwing and Deathwing armies being unique, that's fine, but I have a Dark Angels Army, and they really don't get much at the moment. Ho-hum, I can wait - I'm still waiting for 5th edition 40K anyway.

Heinrich Jäger
26-05-2005, 04:17
I have lost intrest in DA for the time being, since I dont play full death wing or full ravenwing, they are just expensive vinilla marines. For now I am playing my own custom chapter.

I would like to see them do something with the dreadnoughts and the termie squads.

G8Keeper
29-05-2005, 22:14
I think most DA players are dissillusioned once again but, whilst we may well be justified, i think we should wait for the "full" codex to appear before making any judgements. Many people have burned on about the FAQ's being just simple quick fixes with no thought; yes i agree they could've had a little more thought, but much more and they would've turned into the mini-dexes we were used to in 3rd Ed.

Things i would like to see in the DA 4th Ed codex would probably include reduced cost PC's in tactical and perhaps Devastator squads along with the obligatory update to the rules of the DW, RW and Azrael, who quite frankly sucks atm.

Witch Hunter
30-05-2005, 03:31
I'd like to see the DA 'dex have an alternate list for playing an army of Fallen as well

Astromarine
30-05-2005, 09:25
Meh. Honestly, I think DA have the curse of the variant lists already. I want to play DA battle forces that are different enough from vanilla to be called Dark Angels, and the more space in the book taken up by variant lists the less chances that this will happen. 2 variant fully legal army lists are enough.

Isuran Greifenherz
30-05-2005, 09:31
Well the prob with DA I have is that the Rawen Wing Bikes s*ck, i think the Rw background and fluff is cool.I would play them, if the bikes wouldn't have that crap rules.

Exterminatus
10-10-2005, 09:29
Ravenwing bikes are indeed overpriced, the special rulesjust don't cut it.

Unseeing Eye
10-10-2005, 09:34
Necromancy!

Wintermute
10-10-2005, 20:01
Necromancy!

My thoughts exactly!

Thread Closed

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