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Borealis, the Cold King
10-01-2010, 20:40
So my cousin and i have been having a dispute as to what units may be affected by the 'Killing Blow' special rule. He says that lords and heroes as well as named characters such as Teclis are immune to killing blow, where as the rule book states that any roughly man sized model is slain out right. A ruling from more educated people such as the majority of people on these forums would be greatly appreciated as this dispute is going nowhere and is forcing me to rebuild my current army so that it doesnt employ the 'Killing Blow' rule seeing as if it cannot kill lords, heroes and characters (the few models that actually have multiple wounds and would be worth using it against) its not worth employing units with it.

Harbinger09
10-01-2010, 20:46
Lords and Heroes are by far susceptible to Killing Blow, in fact many lists will employ it as the best way of taking out characters. Your cousin is wrong, as long as the Lord is Unit Strength 1 or 2, they can be slain by Killing Blow. An exception is a Dwarf Lord on Shieldbearers, since by being US3 he is immune to Killing Blow

Herod
10-01-2010, 20:46
Not sure where your cousin gets that idea. Killing blow's main plus is to kill those lord type characters.

H

Witchblade
10-01-2010, 20:48
Tell him to point at the rule that grants characters immunity to KB.

There isn't one.

Pacorko
10-01-2010, 20:51
Your cousin is pulling your... leg. He wants an unfair advantage that he made up as there NO rule ever written that mentions that characters, lords and heroes, by and far, have even a slight immunity to Killing Blow.

The only particular exceptions would be the Dwarf Lord's case, and maybe some Tzeench magical immunity granted to his few chosen (although I cannot remember any such case right now).

So, tell your cousin to play fair--and to stay away from Warmachine/Hordes. :p

Griefbringer
10-01-2010, 20:51
Being a character provides no protection from Killing Blow. Your cousin must have his rules a bit mixed up.

Also, the "roughly man sized" rule is from 6th edition - with the 7th edition the criteria for vulnerability to Killing Blow is more explicitely defined as having Unit Strenght of 2 or less.

Razakel
10-01-2010, 20:52
I believe some characters are immune to the Killing Blow effect. However as a rule, all characters lords, heroes or otherwise can be KB'd unless specifically said otherwise.

Shadow Rider
10-01-2010, 21:00
They've all hit the nail on the head. He's been lying to you :(

danny-d-b
10-01-2010, 21:03
Yes there are a number of magic items that make you immune to killing blow (crimson/bronze armour for WOC and dwarfs rune of presivation)

but being a caracter in no way makes you immune to killing blow, unless they are over US 2 (ogers are all immune to killing blow, as are treemen, GD and DP)

LKHERO
10-01-2010, 21:03
Lords and Heroes are by far susceptible to Killing Blow, in fact many lists will employ it as the best way of taking out characters. Your cousin is wrong, as long as the Lord is Unit Strength 1 or 2, they can be slain by Killing Blow. An exception is a Dwarf Lord on Shieldbearers, since by being US3 he is immune to Killing Blow

Correct.

Teclis is 475 points of KB me plz.

Kalandros
10-01-2010, 21:07
I fail to see how Killing Blow is the most important thing to have against Teclis.
A T2 W3 saveless model does not require a Killing Blow to take out ;D

Borealis, the Cold King
10-01-2010, 21:11
Thanx everyone :) thats very very helpful, and it isnt so important against Teclis, he is simply a name i dropped because he is my cousins main form of magical offense and when i suceeded in killing him with KB the arguement started, thanx everyone for clearing that up, lol, he will be pissed, but it better to be corrected then to live in ignorance

Condottiere
10-01-2010, 21:13
Once you get Teclis in combat, it's usually curtains for him; a canny Elf player would make that difficult to achieve.

But Killing Blow is aimed at characters, so making them generally immune is sort of oxymoronic.

phoenixguard09
11-01-2010, 07:52
Or maybe just moronic...

There is also a VC magic armour item (Cadaverous Cuirass I think) that makes you immune to KB and Poison.

Would the US2 ruling for KB mean that a Prince on a dragon would be immune? Because we play that since he is US1 by himself he can be affected.

theunwantedbeing
11-01-2010, 08:03
Or maybe just moronic...

There is also a VC magic armour item (Cadaverous Cuirass I think) that makes you immune to KB and Poison.

Would the US2 ruling for KB mean that a Prince on a dragon would be immune? Because we play that since he is US1 by himself he can be affected.

That's covered in the rules for killing blow.

Artinam
11-01-2010, 08:36
Basicly, you can target the Elf seperatly who is US 1 ( A monster is made of seperate components with different US ).

Bretonnians also have an item to protect them from Killing Blow, called the Mantle of Damsel Elena.

Of and there are some exception to Killing Blow, the Brets have a Virtue (type of skill), that allows them to get a Killing blow against models with the Large Target rule (and only them), but this is a clear exception to normal rules.

fluffykins0
28-01-2010, 22:54
So, would the Skaven DoomWheel be immune to Killing Blow? it came up earlier today in a game between myself and a pal. The waters were further muddied by us being unable to find the unit strength of the DoomWheel.
We just rolled off on it, but I'm not certain. It seems like such a unit would be immune to it, but if it is, that fact isn't indicated anywhere.

Razakel
28-01-2010, 22:58
I would imagine the Doomwheel is intended to be Immune to Killing Blow. It is most certainly of greater unit strength than 2, which would make it immune. Of course this isn't 100% of the time, Bretonnians have a virtue that grants killing blow to large targets. I'd go through the previous Skaven army book if you own it, and use the Unit Strength there.

Griefbringer
28-01-2010, 23:36
I'd go through the previous Skaven army book if you own it, and use the Unit Strength there.

This doesn't really help, because the 6th edition Skaven book does not feature the Doomwheel as a unit choice, and 4th/5th edition rules did not feature the concept of US in the first place.

Does the Doomwheel count as chariot?

Nurgling Chieftain
28-01-2010, 23:45
I don't remember if its rules default to chariot or monster, but it certainly isn't vulnerable to normal killing blow.

ftayl5
29-01-2010, 05:16
I wish you're cousin were right *weeps over Grimgor's severed head* but he is not.

jaxom
29-01-2010, 05:31
This doesn't really help, because the 6th edition Skaven book does not feature the Doomwheel as a unit choice, and 4th/5th edition rules did not feature the concept of US in the first place.

Does the Doomwheel count as chariot?

I believe it is a monster which moves as a chariot. (Well, more specifically, it is a multi-wound model not classed as anything which I believe makes it a monster, which then moves as a chariot according to its rules.)

Pacorko
29-01-2010, 05:56
If you want to go for the complicated--more "realistic" and "houserule-ish"--way, the Doomwheel can be seen as a "monstrous mount", actually. So that makes it sort of the same as a Prince on a dragon: Two different US's, thus Killing Blow can be used against the engineer-pilot.

If you go for the more simple take, it's a chariot with no unit strength calculated for it, and a large target so Killing Blow can't be used against it.

Bear in mind that I am of the posse that firmly believes that no KB can ever be dealt to a Contraption/Machine, but that's another story.

AramilSairSianontel
29-01-2010, 05:58
I would only like to add that whenever you KB a charakter in a challenge you get all his remaining wounds for combat res.

Necromancy Black
29-01-2010, 06:10
If you go for the more simple take, it's a chariot with no unit strength calculated for it, and a large target so Killing Blow can't be used against it.


Lets keep the rules exact here. Being a Large Target does not in any way affect the standard Killing Blow. Some models may get an extra rule to Killing Blow any Large Target, but that is an exception. Normally it is only US that affects Killing Blow.

Avian
29-01-2010, 06:21
I suspect that GW is going to introduce another category of models in 8th edition to cover things like the Doomwheel, Corpse Cart, Screaming Bell, Gyrocopter, Warshrine, etc.

Anyways, it will almost certainly turn out to be US5, because that is its number of Wounds.

jaxom
29-01-2010, 17:21
If you want to go for the complicated--more "realistic" and "houserule-ish"--way, the Doomwheel can be seen as a "monstrous mount", actually. So that makes it sort of the same as a Prince on a dragon: Two different US's, thus Killing Blow can be used against the engineer-pilot.

If you go for the more simple take, it's a chariot with no unit strength calculated for it, and a large target so Killing Blow can't be used against it.

Bear in mind that I am of the posse that firmly believes that no KB can ever be dealt to a Contraption/Machine, but that's another story.

Ummm. I don't have my book with me, but there's not a separate stat-line is there? Without a separate statline you definitely cannot target the engineer. If you want to go "more realistic" start by throwing out all the rules that GW wrote... :)

Avian
29-01-2010, 17:55
The Skaven Engineer "controlling" it doesn't have anything like a separate stat-line.

Haravikk
29-01-2010, 22:18
I would only like to add that whenever you KB a charakter in a challenge you get all his remaining wounds for combat res.
What happens if you have say, four attacks, one or more gets killing blow, and then proceeds to kill the character, while the others cause wounds normally. Are the normal wounds counted as excess, or is the most you can get the character's remaining wounds in such a case?

On that note; what actually happens with the excess rule if you have multiple attacks with different profiles for whatever reason, such as a mount, dwarf shield bearers or whatever, does the mount get to roll its attacks even if the enemy character is already dead, just to see if more overkill was caused?

narrativium
29-01-2010, 23:00
I'll modify your example slightly: take a character with two wounds remaining in a challenge. Four attacks: two cause killing blow, two cause single ordinary wounds. For combat resolution purposes, each killing blow counts as two wounds - the number the model had left - so that's four for killing blow, plus two ordinary wounds, for six. Also written as two wounds plus four of the overkill, so you've still got a chance for a mount to cause the fifth.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-01-2010, 23:01
If you're not in a challenge, dead is dead.

If you're in a challenge, multiple killing blows can all get CR & overkill of the wounds remaining, up to the normal maximum. So can mount (or other later) attacks in the same combat.

This is addressed in some depth in the BRB FAQ part 2.

EDIT: Ninja'd! I'll leave my post here anyway, but for clarity, I entirely agree with narrativium's example above.

Pacorko
30-01-2010, 04:44
Lets keep the rules exact here. Being a Large Target does not in any way affect the standard Killing Blow. Some models may get an extra rule to Killing Blow any Large Target, but that is an exception. Normally it is only US that affects Killing Blow.


You are right, by large I meant to say "it has a US value higher than 2" which is the maximum value to perform a Killing Blow.

Bunnahabhain
31-01-2010, 13:57
But Killing Blow is aimed at characters, so making them generally immune is sort of oxymoronic.

So GW would never create a rule to kill multi-wound man sized stuff in a single blow, then hand out immunity to it as fast as they can...Eternal warrior and instant death( 40K) ring a bell?

Don't some slayers have an ability to killing blow large targets, or is my brain in the wrong edition there?

Artinam
31-01-2010, 15:02
The Bretonnians and the Skulltaker special character are to my knowledge the only ones that can Killing Blow large targets. Slayer have acces to slayer axes that improve their strenght when facing High Toughness models.

Maybe the old Storm of Chaos list had a slayerskill that did it, but I don't have the book to checl

stripsteak
31-01-2010, 17:09
skaven used to be able to, but they changed the item in the new book

Nurgling Chieftain
01-02-2010, 07:20
...Eternal warrior and instant death( 40K) ring a bell?Just played against the new 'nids today. I insta-killed 2 warriors, 3 raveners, and a zoanthrope, all within synapse. ...Felt weird. :cool:

Griefbringer
01-02-2010, 09:48
The Bretonnians and the Skulltaker special character are to my knowledge the only ones that can Killing Blow large targets. Slayer have acces to slayer axes that improve their strenght when facing High Toughness models.

Maybe the old Storm of Chaos list had a slayerskill that did it, but I don't have the book to checl

I took a quick glance on the SoC lists, and as far as I could see they could only get the ordinary KB.

phoenixguard09
01-02-2010, 10:20
Sorry Griefbringer but I'm pretty sure there was a Slayer skill that KB'd large targets. I havn't read the List in ages but I do think I remember a Slayer (I think Dragonslayer) KBing my Gryphon.

Grimgormx
02-02-2010, 17:40
Can skarsnik be KBed?

Griefbringer
02-02-2010, 18:06
Sorry Griefbringer but I'm pretty sure there was a Slayer skill that KB'd large targets. I havn't read the List in ages but I do think I remember a Slayer (I think Dragonslayer) KBing my Gryphon.

I double checked and could not find anything. However, they had another ability that would cause D6 wounds on anything with Toughness 5+. Perhaps it is that ability that you are thinking off?

Pacorko
02-02-2010, 18:12
I'd say yes, Griefbringer because for the luvvame, I can neither find nor remember Slayers (or a Slayer Character) being able to perform a Killing Blow on large targets.