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animush
11-01-2010, 00:48
Hey guys,

I am considering moving from 40k to Fantasy, as I think I would enjoy the strategy involved in fantasy and the players in general seem more mature. I get sick of beating kids at my local games workshop.

I am looking at starting off with a Skaven Batallion, as I like the models, and it seems to offer good value compared to the 40k battleforces, some of which which are maybe $5-10 cheaper than buying the individual components.

Are Skaven a beginner friendly army? I don't really care too much if there is a steep learning curve, but I have never played a game of Fantasy before, although I should quickly be able to pick up on the rules. To compare, I play Necrons, Eldar and Daemonhunters in 40k, some of the more complicated armies.

Any general advice for someone starting fantasy?

Thanks.

Razakel
11-01-2010, 00:58
Hi just a few points about Skaven;

#1: They can be very random and unpredictable. They are (like all armies) easy to play but difficult to master. They have a lot of crazy gadgets that can blow up in your face and kill a lot of friendly targets.

#2: If your going to play Skaven you need to be able to appreciate the funny side of the game, things can and will go wrong in a hurry, your Ratling Gun might misfire and gun down a ton of your own army, or a Brass Orb might miss-throw and land on your general, sucking him into the realm of chaos.

#3: Aside from that they are a rather fun army to play with a lot of options and cool models. They have several cool big things like the Plague Furnace that invigorates your Plague Monks, or the Hell Pit Abomination thats insanely hard to kill.

You can have shooting, magic and heavy hitters for all your combat needs. I believe Skaven are also the only army who can voluntarily fire into combats involving friendly units.

TheDarkDuke
11-01-2010, 01:02
Before buying a single model for any army, get the Army Book, read it over and write up a list, as you may find out that for example going Skaven you may have no interest in Rat Ogres, Giant Rats and Plague Monks. You may find you want a Pestilence army and the 40 Clanrats and Rat Ogres are not needed either, result is you spent a ton on the battalion not wanting half of it.

The change from last edition to this edition of Skaven for me has completely altered my army, from a strong Plague Monk presences to what now I can field as a a pure Plague Monk army. So really buy the army book to and decide what you want as you can really theme Skaven a lot now, which may vary what you may want to do with them.

Putty
11-01-2010, 01:12
fantasy has a very steep learning curve.

prepare to lose your first 10 - 20 games or even more before eking out draws and wins, especially if you area has a lot of veteran players.

you might become disenchanted and tempted to use armies like Daemons during this time but if you are patient and willing to experiment with a range of tactics and army build styles to find your own notch you will be fine.

skaven is a very versatile army... you essentially can do without the Screaming Bell (over rated) and Furnace (good stuff) and just run the old SAD (but modified) or combat heavy skaven with the compulsory storm banner.

oh and prepared to dish out double the amount of cash (compared to most 40k armies) for your army.... you will need 3 - 4 times the models compared to a necron army to field a 2250 point army.

eyescrossed
11-01-2010, 01:37
I've found that reading the rules over a few times, asking questions on here about anything you're confused about, and reading a lot of tactics threads before even playing your first game. Then, even when you're having your first, "learning" game, you'll at least be a fairly competent player.

I did this, and it prevented me from getting smashed by quite a... Veteran. A veteran who liked playing quite hard.

(I did use Daemons for my first game, though)

Foegnasher
11-01-2010, 02:45
circle, meet square.

now that we're introduced, here's a crash course in fantasy.

a lot of 40 K players i know who have tried to switch have the demolition derby mindset, smashing units into each other head on just to seeee what happens. that's not the way to play fantasy. Fantasy requries foreward thinking, planning what is going to happen not just this turn, but two turns from now. you have to master deployment, movement, proper application of magical power at the right time, target selfection for missles, and getting into advantagous combats. you can do all of these things right and still lose.

the long and the short of it is that you got a lot to learn. get the big red book. get your favorite army book. read. go watch games, ask questions. find the army that most appeals to you, then begin collecting. ask us here for tactical advice, we'll bne glad to help. be prepared to lose a lot at first. play for fun and you cant go wrong.

welcom to warhammer fantasy.

ChaosVC
11-01-2010, 03:50
Yeah! Drop that plasma gun or I will poke you to death with me spear of epic impale!

The Red Scourge
11-01-2010, 06:28
Don't overcomplicate things.

Get models.

Get army book.

Get patient opponent to teach you the rules.

Go on to win fame and fortune as a fantasy general.

Its really not that hard :)

Condottiere
11-01-2010, 06:43
Look over army books, select the ones that appeal to you; borrow in preference to purchasing.

Proxy troops and try out various types of armies, strategies and tactics, and figure out what you like and what suits your play style.

Make time plan of what you want to start using, how many models in total you want to buy, and when time and budget will allow you to do so.

Shadow Rider
11-01-2010, 10:21
I have just started doing what you are thinking about. I have been a 40k player for about 14 years and I still enjoy the game loads. I found out the way to keep me interested in 40k was to take it to the next step and play at a very competitive level. None of the little kids at the local GW would want to play me anymore which suits me just fine :) lol.

Anyway as people have suggested look to the codex first. You want to be able to see if the army book helps towards your personal playing style. 40k does take a lot of tactics still if you know what you're doing at a competitive level. With that in mind are you a shooty player? Combat player? Mixed. Do you prefer the idea of an all Magic army? These are things you want to consider when looking at your army type. For example if you wanted a shooty army, don't get Warriors of Chaos.

Skaven might be complex as a beginning army. They can be fairly simple to use, but getting into a competitive mind set with them will take time. If you're patient it can be rewarding. I had to modify how I play the game to start winning Fantasy games. But after a couple of months I can now keep up with most of the competitive players.

Battalions in my opinion are only worth it if you want a Basic Force to start learning the rules with. If thats not the case write up some army lists with the codex and take it from there. Just remember. Army lists in Fantasy are very different to 40k. However 90% of learning Fantasy, comming from 40k, is trail and error.

Shazarn
11-01-2010, 15:02
I started out playing 4th Ed tau but also started a lizardmen force when I figured out that 70% of the people at my shop were fantasy and 40k players. There's no reason not to play both :). On skaven, I don't play them and the only time I have vs'd them was in a 4000pt a side game team match which culminated in Carnisaur vs screaming bell. I rolled alot of 1s to summerise the encounter.

AtmaTheWanderer
11-01-2010, 17:39
The new Skaven are a wonderful army, and almost as devastating to yourself at times as your opponent. My 2250 list normally looks something along the lines of

Grey Seer, Bell, Some upgrades
Warlock Engineer w/ No Upgrades and Brass Orb
Warlock Engineer w/ Level 2, Storm Daemon, Doomrocket
Plague Priest/Varies

30 Clanrats w/ FC (goes with bell)
20 Skavenslaves w/ Mus
20 Skavenslaves w/ Mus
23 Giant Rats/3 Packmasters
6 Plague Censer Bearers
20 Plague Monks
5 Jezzails
Doomwheel
Hellpit Abomination

And it does pretty darn well. The warlock w/ the brass orb just sits behind the screaming bell and basically forces as many dispel dice out of my opponent as I want to... If he gets skitterleaped, it can be the end of an entire unit for armies like lizardmen.

For what it's worth, I will tell you this - Skaven are the first Fantasy army to hold my attention and desire to play them for more then 10 or so games... and I've spent WAY TOO DAMN much on this hobby. They will have perhaps a harsher learning curve then several other armies out there, but when played they're like a swiss army knife of doom that has a 1/6 chance of cutting off your opponent's head and a 1/12 chance of cutting off your own.

My advice is that with the new book, you actually kinda have to, as a player, turn down your desire to cheese a bit. Some of the new things, like the doomwheel or Hellpit Abom, are so powerful you'll want to double up on them, but that will lead to games that are just unfun and start heading towards people not wanting to play against you. I actually traded my 2nd Doomwheel that I had purchased to a friend after seeing the absolute carnage it dished out in the first game I played with it.

Well, that and painting the doomwheel is about as much fun as a molten lead enema.

O&G'sRule
11-01-2010, 19:50
Just experiment for yourself, thats the best way to play fantasy (or 40k). Skaven are clearly standing out for you so whether they are the best starter army or not doesn't matter (not the best but not the worst either). You have some amazing kits now, some scope to let your imagination run wild with conversions, especially an abomination.
Skaven are probably closer in style to the Ork (40k) army than even Orcs and goblins in style. Lots of crazy weaponry, get bonuses for being in large numbers and don't really worry about numbers of casualties

Fredmans
11-01-2010, 22:43
I started playing WHFB with Skaven, and find that it is one of the best armies to collect and play, whether you are a beginner or a veteran. Skaven have a lot of different units, and therefore playing styles, available to them, which will make you more likely to stick to WHFB. I would advise you to not go overboard on a specific clan or unit, because that is the way to grow tired of your army. Expand in the direction your games takes you (whether for improvement or flavour).

animush
12-01-2010, 07:00
Thanks for all the advice everyone.

I've spent the last few days reading through the Skaven army book and they sound like a lot of fun to play. I don't care so much about winning as just having fun, and Skaven sound like they are a lot of that.

I also read a cool article in the back of the 4th ed army book, recommended by one of the guys at GW.

Given that i don't really understand how fantasy differs from 40k, or how magic works at all, I wouldn't know how to go about writing an army list, but 40 clanrats seems like a good base for a basic army to get me started.

I really like the look of the clan skryre stuff such as doom cannons and engineers with devastating spells, but will try to get in a few intro games to learn the mechanics before I buy any models.

Money or amount of models required isn't a concern to me, I have plenty of time to paint them all.

Thanks again for the advice, expect to see a few threads in the coming weeks with some more specific questions :)

animush

Grimmeth
12-01-2010, 12:20
As with any of GW's games, I find it much easier to be shown how to play rather than trying to read the book and work it out.

40 clanrats is a good start for any skaven army (2 core units of 20) although it might be worth thinking of raising that to 60 (two units of 30) Skaven like their big numbers!
After that you'll want a character to lead them - if you like Clan Skyre how about a Warlock Enginseer? He can give you some ok combat ability with a bit of magic and some fun magic items too. From there that you could look at some weapon teams to add to the units (Warpfire Throwers perhaps?) and by that point you'll be well on your way to starting a Skaven army!

Sand
12-01-2010, 12:41
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but one thing that I benefited immensely from when getting back into the hobby was having a friend who didn't mind taking a few games just to teach me the "new" game. This is properly not at all unusual, but what we did was to state all our intentions out loud as we were playing.

For example, I'd say "I move my skeletons here, hoping that they'll be able to stop those knights from flanking the unit with my general, while still staying within range of my vampires raise-spell" and when it was his turn he went "you having repositioned the units I was going to charge, I move my knights over here, hoping to get the other flank so I can eventually reach your general, while your skeletons will not be fast enough to catch up".

That really helped me to understand the tactics involved in movement (among other things) in Fantasy, which is a huuuge part of the game these days. I really think this helped me break the above-mentioned learning curve faster and get draws and wins early on.

Toshiro
12-01-2010, 13:12
Thanks for all the advice everyone.

I've spent the last few days reading through the Skaven army book and they sound like a lot of fun to play. I don't care so much about winning as just having fun, and Skaven sound like they are a lot of that.

The perfect attitude to start the game with :)

squeekenator
12-01-2010, 20:49
*snip*40 clanrats seems like a good base for a basic army to get me started.

You'll soon find that Fantasy differs from 40K in many ways, and this here is a big one, especially when you're playing Skaven. The model count is way higher in Fantasy, even in two armies of the same points total. I personally wouldn't play a 2k game with anything less than 80 Clanrats, and generally I'll have closer to 100, plus plague monks, night runners, slaves (lots of them), 4 heroes and a few other assorted rats. With any Fantasy army, and particularly with Skaven, you're going to have to buy and paint a lot more models. Don't try to get around this and make a low model count army, otherwise your horde will flop and your games will be rather unsatisfying. With Skaven more than any other army (well, other than pure goblin/gnoblar hordes) you'll have to put a lot of time and money into the game to get anything back.

Of course, once you have a Skaven army, it's the best-best thing ever, but it's a royal pain in the backside to assemble your horde.

Shadow Rider
12-01-2010, 22:49
Where as I have 34 Models in my entire 2,000 pts High Elf Army. Same as 40k Army Model counts will vary completely.

squeekenator
13-01-2010, 00:27
Well, that's certainly an impressively low model count. Nevertheless, in my experience at least, the average model count for Fantasy will be much higher than the average model count for a 40K army, and even an elite Skaven army with lots of fancy stuff and upgrades galore can match an Ork horde in numbers.

animush
13-01-2010, 00:58
Batallions are really cheap online, from Wayland games they are 44 GBP which is $75AUD, on the shelf at Games Workshop they are $160AUD, so I think I will pick up one online, and a few other boxes.

I realise this isn't the army list section, but as I don't really know enough to write an army list, but would like to get a few models together as it will probably take me a while to paint (I am a slow painter) what else would those of you who know a bit about skaven recommend for 1,000Pt starter force, which can be expanded once I get the hang of things.

Batallion contains:
40 clanrats, 20 plague monks, 6 giant rats, 2 rat ogres and 3 slavers.

Another 20 clan rats for 2 core units 30 strong.
Warlock Engineer sounds like a suitable leader

What else would you recommend to get started with? I am open to anything :)

nedsta
13-01-2010, 02:01
I too have come across to fantasy in the last month,
i haven't played a WFB game since 3rd ed but since my missus was keen to start a goblin army i thought it the perfect time to pick up the game, empire batallion, army books, wizards, hellblaster, general and some buildings

i am looking forward to getting my troops painted as it is making a hell of a change from space wolves and keeping my painting skills on their toes and the thought of playing a game requiring a fair bit of thinking has actually got me looking forward to learning the rules and having a few games (lost interest in playing 40k halfway through 3rd ed) but i'll mainly be just painting and collecting for now (and hopefully if my chaos mammoth sells then i'll be getting quite a few more Nuln troopers

huge thanks to the various staff at GW Metro, Newcastle and Leeds for chatting to me and the missus about different aspects of each army and for giving her a few intro painting lessons,

Laughingmonk
13-01-2010, 02:50
I too have come across to fantasy in the last month,
i haven't played a WFB game since 3rd ed but since my missus was keen to start a goblin army i thought it the perfect time to pick up the game, empire batallion, army books, wizards, hellblaster, general and some buildings

i am looking forward to getting my troops painted as it is making a hell of a change from space wolves and keeping my painting skills on their toes and the thought of playing a game requiring a fair bit of thinking has actually got me looking forward to learning the rules and having a few games (lost interest in playing 40k halfway through 3rd ed) but i'll mainly be just painting and collecting for now (and hopefully if my chaos mammoth sells then i'll be getting quite a few more Nuln troopers

huge thanks to the various staff at GW Metro, Newcastle and Leeds for chatting to me and the missus about different aspects of each army and for giving her a few intro painting lessons,


Welcome back to the fold. I'd head over to Warhammer-Empire. They'll have everything you'll ever want to know about... the Empire.

Now, I don't know about any of this competative nonsense, but fantasy certainly has a lot more character than 40k. I'd wager the skaven book alone has more character than any three 40k codeci's, let alone a book like orcs and gobbos (which has like 4-5 armies in it alone).

Condottiere
13-01-2010, 03:52
Where as I have 34 Models in my entire 2,000 pts High Elf Army. Same as 40k Army Model counts will vary completely.That would be Star Dragon, Dragon Mage, 20 LSG, 4 RBT and balance Dragon Princes?

SilverWarlock
13-01-2010, 04:16
That would be Star Dragon, Dragon Mage, 20 LSG, 4 RBT and balance Dragon Princes?

Name the most boring and skilless list in fantasy? Wait no that wasn't your point :p

As for the switch ... good luck, I went to fantasy and have gotten bored every time I tried to get back to 40K. The game is very very different.

Skaven are a tough army to master and not very forgiving at the beginning as they have no really fast units and die fast to being outflanked (meaning that you really cant afford to get out of position).

If you are a slow painter ... you may have to adapt or find a lot of time. A skaven army for 2000 points is 200 models (250+ for mine, 180 ish for the low ones) and that can take some time. On the other hand most of the low model count armies won't teach you the game (which is probably why they attract a fair few 40 K players who will beat the bad fantasy players then get kicked around by veterans with more balanced/numerous armies).

Good luck with skaven, check out http://underempire.net/?act=idx for tactics, painting, lists etc. Might want to check out some form of ink based/dipping technique for your basic dudes. Another thing, plan the army/proxy it, then buy it. The skaven army is expensive and poor planning could cost you a fair bit.

ChaosVC
13-01-2010, 04:37
Which is more scary, painting 250 rats brown or 140 Orcs and goblin green? I tell yer, nothing beats paint 90 high elves model white!

animush
13-01-2010, 04:58
I quite like the idea of having 200 rats on the table at any time, and I saw the guys at my local GW paint up a Skaven army for the store window, and with a few foundation paints, and some devlan mud wash, I could paint 20 clan rats to a decent tabletop standard in a day.

Carkey
13-01-2010, 06:05
I'm also moving to fantasy from 40k, and I'd like to thank you all for your kind tips for noobs like me.

Laughingmonk
13-01-2010, 07:03
I quite like the idea of having 200 rats on the table at any time, and I saw the guys at my local GW paint up a Skaven army for the store window, and with a few foundation paints, and some devlan mud wash, I could paint 20 clan rats to a decent tabletop standard in a day.

I recently discovered Army Painter Quickshade. It is like a gift from valhalla. I'm blazing through Empire state troops like its cool. Only 320 to go....

Crovax20
13-01-2010, 08:00
I recently discovered Army Painter Quickshade. It is like a gift from valhalla. I'm blazing through Empire state troops like its cool. Only 320 to go....

Haha, I am ever so tempted to go such an easy route with my state troops as well. But no, I must be strong and spend hours upon hours on them so they go kill stuff better. I spend a pretty long time on my cannon+crew and the first game they went into they killed a black orc warboss in melee combat. Yes rolling sixes is fun, especially when your opponent gets 1's and 2's.

Skyros
13-01-2010, 18:34
Any general advice for someone starting fantasy?

Thanks.

I think fantasy is a bit more 'tactical' in a gameplay - but it also seems to take longer.

A few big differences I noticed were

1) The movement phase is the heart of the fantasy game. This is where you set everything up. Troops in fantasy do not fight in mobs of skirmishers but in huge formation blocks with very restricive movement and line of sight. While a mob of infantry in 40k can move up to 12" in any direction they want, a block of infantry in fantasy will possibly find itself only moving 4" straight ahead. Planning ahead features much more prominently

2) Much more potent magic phases in fantasy. They tend to make the psyker powers in 40k look very weak. You can easily have 4 wizards on the enemy side casting 6 or more very powerful spells a turn on your guys, which can combine to wipe out entire blocks of units.

3) Armor saves are handled a little differently in fantasy. In 40k, if your AP met the armor, they had no armor save, and if not, it didn't matter how close you came. AP3 vs 2+ was no more effective than AP6 vs 2+. In fantasy, every point of strength of your weapon over 4 reduces the armor save by 1. So your big 1+ knights might wind up testing on a 4+ a lot if hit by high S guys

4) Unlike 40k, where you can only take one save, in fantasy you can layer saves on top of each other. (and often re-roll them!). Armor saves, ward saves, and regen saves.

Many fantasy armies will have a much higher model count than most 40k armies (IG and orks excepted). Whereas a unit of space marines is 10 guys, a unit of empire or goblins or skaven will be like 30 guys. Also you tend to have more 'throw away' low value point units. Fortunately you can speed paint skaven and still have them look great. Basecoat black, paint in various browns (don't forget to pick up the foundation browns) wash with devlan mud, done :) Devlan mud is the best thing ever for skaven.

I think Skaven is a decent choice. The army can compete in any phase, (unlike the one dimensional dwarfs) and can be built in several different ways (unlike some armies that basically have one viable list). They aren't super overpowered or super underpowered and have some neat tools.

Seville
13-01-2010, 20:09
a lot of 40 K players i know who have tried to switch have the demolition derby mindset, smashing units into each other head on just to seeee what happens. that's not the way to play fantasy. Fantasy requries foreward thinking, planning what is going to happen not just this turn, but two turns from now. you have to master deployment, movement, proper application of magical power at the right time, target selfection for missles, and getting into advantagous combats. you can do all of these things right and still lose.

Hey, honestly not trying to pick a fight here, but, I get a bit tired of hearing this line. I play both games, and, I get a lot of smack talk from my Fantasy only friends for it. You do actually need a brain to play 40k well. Movement and reacting are far more dynamic in 40k. And the different scenarios force you to think strategically with your list building and also think on your toes during the game.

In many ways, I find 40k to be the tactically more complex game. Many games of Fantasy feel like "move forward. charge. flank charge. win. (or lose, as the case may be)".

I do like Fantasy a lot, but I don't agree that it requires more skill or brains.

animush
13-01-2010, 21:13
Thanks again for the info, I have ordered a Batallion to get me started, and will probably get a Plague Furnace and an engineer after that.. and see where things go.

SilverWarlock
14-01-2010, 01:41
Hey, honestly not trying to pick a fight here, but, I get a bit tired of hearing this line. I play both games, and, I get a lot of smack talk from my Fantasy only friends for it. You do actually need a brain to play 40k well. Movement and reacting are far more dynamic in 40k. And the different scenarios force you to think strategically with your list building and also think on your toes during the game.

In many ways, I find 40k to be the tactically more complex game. Many games of Fantasy feel like "move forward. charge. flank charge. win. (or lose, as the case may be)".

I do like Fantasy a lot, but I don't agree that it requires more skill or brains.

What I find entertaining is looking at the 40K tactics section. It is 95% "What unit can I put in my list to counter this other unit?".

Fantasy is simple if two players run up and wait for dice to happen (kind of like a 40K game really). On the other hand watch a few games from tournament winners playing underdog armies (often the same players in a region with different armies each tournament in my experience).

This being said, good luck with fantasy, it is much more appropriate for tournament play (whereas 40K is more of a throw it on the table, get some beers and roll some dice) and great if you like competition.

squeekenator
14-01-2010, 04:18
What I find entertaining is looking at the 40K tactics section. It is 95% "What unit can I put in my list to counter this other unit?".

Funny, that. On the first page of the Fantasy Tactics section, excluding the Tactica: This Race threads, which discuss everything about that army, there are 12 threads asking "What unit can I put in my list to counter this other unit?", one asking for nifty tricks on how to use unit x and two that are half-half. In the 40K tactics section, there are 9 asking "What unit can I put in my list to counter this other unit?", 2 asking how to use unit y and one that's half-half (if you're wondering why there are more Fantasy than 40K threads, it's because the 40K first page is full of Tactica: This Race). Overall, the proportion of 40K threads asking about actual tactics is higher than it is for Fantasy. Back in the glorious days of 6th edition you would have been completely correct, but nowadays Fantasy is in a pretty sorry state, with massive power creep and a resurgence of point-and-click Herohammer, while 40K is going from strength to strength.

Obviously, none of this matters if you're playing casually, and Skaven are a high-tier army, so the OP need not worry unless he plans on playing in some big tournaments. Nevertheless, it's something to keep in mind...

ChaosVC
14-01-2010, 04:44
I think this tread is about Animush getting jiggy with fantasy after some time with 40k. Not which game is better right?

animush
14-01-2010, 14:21
I think this tread is about Animush getting jiggy with fantasy after some time with 40k. Not which game is better right?

Totally.

I ran through the intro game at my local GW with one of the guys there, as they were pretty quiet this afternoon, and nobody was up for challenging my necrons. I am on a winning streak at the moment, 3 wins and counting!

I've managed to wrap my head around all of the basics, as some of it isn't too different, and its easy to remember what is, because it is.

We covered some basic magic rules, and a few Skaven specifics but nothing in depth. I will basically be waiting for my battalion to arrive, assemble and paint, then try to get a few friendly games in to learn the fine points.

I had a lot of fun, its a bit different and will be a welcome change in between games of 40k, which can get a bit repetitive.

I've been chatting a bit with Toonces and we have come up with something like this for an army to get started with, 800 points is a common amount played at my local store.

Plague Priest (General)
- Level 2 Wizard
- Flail
139

Warlock Engineer
- Level 2 Wizard
- Warp-Energy Condenser
120

Assassin
- Warlock-Augmented Weapon
165

20 Clanrats
- Shields
- Clawleader
- Standard Bearer
- Musician
110

20 Skavenslaves
40

20 Skavenslaves
40

6 Giant Rats
1 Packmaster
26

19 Plaguemonks
- Bringer-of-the-Word
- Standard Bearer
- Musician
165

TOTAL 798

Any suggestions to this list, feel free, I really like it, looks FUN and easy on my pocket too. Lots of rats to paint. I could post it in the army list section too, but I doubt I would get any replies to a list this size.

Thanks for the advice so far, anything else keep it coming :)