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Caralon
11-01-2010, 07:12
Hello all, I am new to 40k and have a couple questions about rules and how to play 40k. As a Fantasy player, some of the rules are getting confused for me.

I am playing as Eldar and played an Ork player today - it did not go well. It has led me to question some of our understanding of the rules. The situation that I was particularly unhappy with is that it didn't seem possible for me to stay away from the Orks, as they are just too fast, and once they get to me I was killed nearly instantly.

I am having trouble figuring out how to defend myself from close combat troops, as the power of my ranged weaponry does not seem to make up for my utter failure to stay alive in combat.

I am also confused about assaults. Is there no option like in fantasy to retreat from the assault or fire my weapons at the enemies charging me? Can I really get attacked by the whole mob of guys behind the front line of the enemy, and what can I do to prevent that from happening?

Can vehicles really just move around however they want, front, back, and sideways?

I'd appreciate any basic tactical and rules based advice people are willing to share.

Falkman
11-01-2010, 07:26
There are no charge reactions in 40k, that is correct.
Vehicles can pivot and move around quite freely, kinda like chariots in Fantasy, for a comparison that might be more familiar for you.

You play Eldar, the fastest army in the game (except maybe Dark Eldar), how do you have a problem staying away from Orks?
Your shooting should also be pretty good, taking care of Orks shouldn't be a tough problem.
Without knowing what kinda units you used it's pretty hard to know what you could do to improve though.

Elhier
11-01-2010, 07:43
hi, first things first, your playing eldar which are one of the most manoverble armies in the game: all your troops, bar ss and wraith guard, can fleet. your transports are also potentialy the fastest in the game.

however you were playing orks which, guessing from what you've said, were being played as a horde. swamping you is there primary statergy and because they rock in close combat they will rip your average troops limb from limb.

now not knowing your army compersition i can only presume why you may of had problems.

its is possible that your fire power was of the wrong type, orks are a hord army and as such will on average have average tougness and a crappy armour save, it is therfore a waist if you were shooting orks with a bright lance or starcannon, you would be better of using scatter lasers and shurican cannons.

secondly if you had the right type of fire power you were not depoying it properly, if you want your fire to be effective shoot one unit untill it is dead ro fleeing then move on to the next, this way you avoid only partialy hurting units, which allows you to rak up kill points.

third and final critical point (sorry if this sounds like i'm having a go, i'm just pointing out what i see) the eldar's aspects is waht makes them so effective, each aspect excells at killing a certain type of enemy, in this case ss were your friends as they excel at killing large numbers of low armoursave troops, although against orks make sure you get the charge.

ok, when you are charged in 40k you effectivly have no reaction other than to hold, ur troops cannot stand and shoot or flee, unless the enemy has a spicial rule to that makes you flee. i know, i play fantasy and to me it seems like madness that orks with bows have time to draw an arrow while being charged yet a space ork cannot even point and pull a triger.

in assault models can fight that are in base contact or are 2inches away from a model in base contact, remember after you have been charged you have to pile in your unit to bring as many of ur models in to range as possible, so for the eldar, who are ussualy the fastest and have small ish units can sumtimes blunt an attack before any real damage is done.

vehicles cannot just move as they please, unless they belong to the fast or skimmer categories, so basicly if its wheel are on the ground then it cannot just slide sideways around his deployment area , it can rotate then move then rotate to face you, much in the same way as wheeling in fatasy.

hope this helps, if you want general eldar tactics there is a eldar tactics thread lurking in here sumwhere, its full of people arguing nd may be confusing to some one new to the game but its worth a look at, or pm me.

Elhier :)

Darthvegeta800
11-01-2010, 07:46
Eldar are a specialist army, you actually have some good CC units. Eldar are very powerful but you need to use each unit for it's specific purpose. What's your army list? I'm sure Eldar experts will be able to help you out once they know what you have to work with.

Brady
11-01-2010, 07:51
theres no such things as line of sight arcs in 40k. each model is essentially a skirmish unit (to relate to you! ) as previously said how are having problems avoiding orks? eldar are on of the swiftest armies. how many serpents do u use? just "go up, down, flying around,looping the loop and defying the ground"
ahem


just dart around the board in serpents. they can fly over models and terrain with no penalty becuase they are ' skimmers '

squeekenator
11-01-2010, 08:26
The questions first - there are no charge reactions, you just fight when you get charged. If you want to avoid a fight, stay away from the enemy, you can't rely on a magic get out of jail free card. As far as stand and shoot reactions go, they would be hilariously unbalanced and make all assault armies useless. Yes, the whole mob can attack you as long as all the models that aren't in base to base contact are close to models that are. Your opponent paid for those extra boyz, it's a little unfair if they can' attack. Vehicles move freely, which is odd, but whatever.

Now, tactics.

Eldar are not known for being newbie-friendly, so don't expect to win with them easily, particularly not against Orks, which are easy to use and a very powerful army (not so strong as to be overpowered, but certainly very good). Without having watched your game or known the army lists used, I can't say anything precise, but i'll give this a shot.

- You have be able to move around. A 40K shooting army is not like a Fantasy shooting army, where you deploy as far back as possible and ignore the movement phase entirely. In an Eldar army, every squad you have must have something that gets them around the board faster, and fleet doesn't cut it. Obviously, Warp Spiders, jetbikes and other fast units can be fielded as-is, but most infantry units will need a Wave Serpent or Falcon to carry them around. The only exception to this I can think of is Striking Scorpions, since they can infiltrate. If an Ork army has an easy time getting to Eldar, then there's something weird going on.

- More importantly, you have to use your ability to move intelligently. Ork hordes are almost unstoppable in a head-on fight. You have to try to take on each mob separately, get your whole army to utterly annihilate one mob while being out of the charge range of the others, and whittle them down one mob at a time before you take them on in a fair fight.

- The best unit in the Eldar army is the Farseer. The army is balanced around them. They're a huge force multiplier that makes the Eldar army highly competitive. If you don't have one, get one ASAP. The most basic Farseer I would consider taking is one with doom, guide and spirit stones. She can doom a squad, which lets the rest of your army rip through it scarily fast, and is necessary for the strategy I outlined above where you kill one unit at a time, and her guide works wonders. If you want, you can replace one of those powers with fortune, but generally your transports give you enough protection. I cannot stress the important of pyskers in an Eldar army enough.

If you want some more detailed help, post up your army list and any other available models. A rough list of what your opponent had would also help.

carlisimo
11-01-2010, 08:37
You'll find that Guardians can't be used in a straightforward fashion, because if they're close enough to shoot they're close enough to be assaulted. It's a steep learning curve, but you'll have to use squads together either to kill entire enemy squads in one turn or kill many then assault the rest, etc. I'm sure you're used to coordination of that sort, but now combined with lots of guns.

genestealer_baldric
11-01-2010, 08:42
eldar are a nice looking army and are frequently descirbed as a glass hammer they are very fragile but can be devastaing. Eldars main role is keeping out of CC range and shooting things mainly. Granted they have 2 gd CC units banshees and striking scopians but they genrally cant do enough damage to a full mob of 30 strong orks unless its numbers get wittled down before hand. they mainly seem to be used as a counter assault unit.

if you are liky to play swarm armys alot war walkers with 2 sets of scatter lazers are very very devastaing on hoards, and with long range you can keep as much distance between you and the enemy as possible.

and unlike fanatasy terrain is your freind in this ed it provideds 4+ saves across the board genrally it also slows down assaults. unlike fanstsay you dont have to be within 2 " of the edge of terrain to shoot but if you are the targeted unit will get a cover save from your shots.

meno1
11-01-2010, 11:24
Not much more to be said really. Eldar aspects have to be used in conjunction with each other, supporting one another, otherwise they will fail. They really are boom or bust, with every aspect only good for one single purpose. If you post your army list, I'm sure people would be glad to help you more. Check out Eldar tactics threads here, rework your list, and I'm sure you'll do fine.

the Goat
11-01-2010, 12:41
each aspect excells at killing a certain type of enemy, in this case ss were your friends as they excel at killing large numbers of low armoursave troops, although against orks make sure you get the charge.

Really? You think Shining Spears are the best aspect to use. It is not a good idea to abbreviate when there are multiple options that can fit your chosen abbreviation.
________
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Bubbatron
11-01-2010, 14:43
would it not help if we saw his army composition before we start telling him how to organise a battle ? maybe as he says hes a new player he doesnt understand how mounting in wave serpents etc would help him

SPYDER68
11-01-2010, 14:52
Hello all, I am new to 40k and have a couple questions about rules and how to play 40k. As a Fantasy player, some of the rules are getting confused for me.

I am playing as Eldar and played an Ork player today - it did not go well. It has led me to question some of our understanding of the rules. The situation that I was particularly unhappy with is that it didn't seem possible for me to stay away from the Orks, as they are just too fast, and once they get to me I was killed nearly instantly.

I am having trouble figuring out how to defend myself from close combat troops, as the power of my ranged weaponry does not seem to make up for my utter failure to stay alive in combat.

I am also confused about assaults. Is there no option like in fantasy to retreat from the assault or fire my weapons at the enemies charging me? Can I really get attacked by the whole mob of guys behind the front line of the enemy, and what can I do to prevent that from happening?

Can vehicles really just move around however they want, front, back, and sideways?

I'd appreciate any basic tactical and rules based advice people are willing to share.

As others have said..

No flee or stand and shoot vs assaulting units.. In 40k.. shooting is much more powerful, assault armies wouldnt have a chance if you could shoot.. get charged and shoot again while they charged.

Also.. you should post your list in tactics forum, and give an idea of what your opponet was using, Eldar is about speed, and using it correctly, which can be a bit hard to do at times.

trolly
11-01-2010, 17:35
hi,

sorry to ask this but since eldar have fleet, if they choose to run in shooting phase (no assault), can they still assault?
need enlightment here guys. thanks

cheers,:D

Falkman
11-01-2010, 17:45
Yes, that is how Fleet works.

Caralon
11-01-2010, 23:44
Thanks for all the feedback. I posted my army list in the Army List forum at around the same time and was looking for more rules stuff here, so if you are interested, it can be found here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239292

That said, it is more obvious to me what I did wrong in the game I was playing. I had only played Imperial Guard before, and lost that game because I couldn't kill his Tank. In this game, I took way too many tank killing weapons, and took a lot of things that were Pinning. That might have been a good idea, but my opponent got lucky and never failed a pinning test so it didn't work out.

I think my biggest confusion was about the Guardians, as I don't quite see what they are for. Are they just a squad that you have to buy to get the gun platform?

I have a few more questions:

1. Do Eldar have any grenades? I have played a lot of Dawn of War 2, and there are a bunch of grenades for Eldar there, but I did not find any in the book.

2. I was told in another thread that the Eldar Missile Launcher can choose each turn to shoot either plasma or krak. Is this correct?

3. How do the transports actually work? In a Wave Serpent, I could move 12, disembark and shoot the guns in a squad of Dire Avengers. Then, the next turn they could Embark and the ship could move - is it 24? Then, on the third turn, they could disembark and fire, but not get back on the ship? Is this pattern relatively correct or have I missed something.

Thanks again!

Falkman
12-01-2010, 01:16
Guardians are a pretty crap unit overall, the range on their guns are too short for them to be usable, and they are mostly just bought for the gun platform (which in my opinion is still worthless, buying an entire unit for just one heavy weapon, at BS3 even, is a waste).
If you need Troops Dire Avengers are much better at shooting, and you got Elite aspect warriors if you need to fight in close combat or bust tanks/monsters.

On to your questions:
1. A few units have Assault grenades, namely the Autarch, the Striking Scorpions and the Swooping Hawks. Howling Banshees have Banshee masks instead, they were intended to work better than grenades when the codex was written, but rules changes in 5th ed have made them useless, so the lack of grenades on them makes them really bad when assaulting stuff in cover.
Harlequins have flip-belts that let them ignore terrain completely, and they can also buy a Shadowseer giving the unit Assault grenades.

2. Missile launchers (both Eldar and Imperial) have profiles for two kinds of shots, in the case of Eldar it's Plasma or Krak missiles. Every time you want to fire the Missile launcher you can choose which missile type to fire, so yes, you can choose every turn which type to shoot.

3. Eldar transports are fast vehicles, which means they can embark or disembark on/from a vehicle moving no more than 12" (so they can not embark and then fly 24", as in your example). They are free to move before embarking, but not after disembarking (unless the vehicle has not moved yet, then they can move after disembarking). If a unit is moving before embarking on a vehicle, that vehicle cannot move any more in that turn.
You can never voluntarily embark and disembark from a vehicle in the same turn.

squeekenator
12-01-2010, 03:38
Grenades are hugely important in Dawn of War 2, but in tabletop they're just a footnote. Rather than actually doing damage, they make your squad capable of charging into cover without their Initiative being penalised. So if you're looking for the super-duper grenades that wipe squads in one hit, then no, they aren't there. And yes, you are correct in thinking that Guardians are pretty useless. Their range is just too short to work. All other short ranged units are good in assault, expendable meat shields or so devastating at short range that they wipe out everything in one round.

shabbadoo
12-01-2010, 07:24
Hello all, I am new to 40k...

Well, first off you need to pretty much leave most everything from the Warhammer Fantasy rules by the wayside. You can't just ask what is different between the rules systems, as that includes practically everything. What you need to do is read the 40K rulebook, word for word. Seriously, there are even some rules in the sidebar boxed areas too, so read literally EVERYTHING on each page. There are plenty of examples in the rulebook regarding how things work. Get ideas of how things work in Warhammer Fantasy out of your head. Once again, the two systems share very, very little in common. If you do not already have one, I would pick up a copy of the Assault of Black Reach softcover mini-rulebook. Then get a highlighter pen and be prepared to use it. The rulebook has plenty of pictures and diagrams explaining how things work. That you aren't sure how some of the most basic things in the 40K system works tells me you have not red the rulebook in detail. Take some time and give it a proper reading. Learn to use the Index too. It will point you in the right direction most of the time.

Then give the Eldar codex, and accompanying Games Workshop website Eldar Errata/FAQ a proper reading too, word for word- don't skim anything. Read it all. Then, learn how the rules for the Eldar fit into the context of the main rules.

After that, get to know Orks better by reading your friend's copy of the Ork codex and the Game workshop Ork codex Errata/FAQ too, which you can download yourself.

As to tactics, why don't you try looking in this forum here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4 Then do a Search using the advanced Search features to look in only that forum, and for the word "Eldar" only in thread titles. This will pull up nearly every Eldar tactica thread, plus a bunch of Dark Eldar tactica threads too(ignore the latter). Most of your questions will likely be answered in viewing the threads there, plus you ought to get loads of ideas from people regarding the tactical uses of every Eldar unit.

Also, 40K is NOT Dawn of War. The units don't function in similar ways in many instances, nor does the equipment always get accurately represented in both ability or in quantity.

Basically, do your homework.

MadHatter
12-01-2010, 07:45
I would suggest you find someone who can stand with you and help you play your army and give you pointers your first few games. If you find opponents objecting to this then find another person to play while you are learning the rules. I would rather my opponent have someone to help him/her to make them a better player. Heck if i am playing a new player I give them pointers.

Eldar require your units to work together. So until you figure out which units work best for your tactics and play style you are going to struggle through it.