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Rydmend
12-01-2010, 17:22
As opposed to the other thread this is specifcally dealing with assault and nothing else.

I think *some* assault ability is required beyond kroot.

I think an close combat varient Battlesuit would fit the bill and an assault oriented HQ as well.

I also think that kroot need a revamp with a 6+ save coming standard and the shaper bringing it to 5+ along with move through cover instead of thier current cover moving ability that only works in forest.

Fire warriors could stand to have something that helps combat ability as well but I'm not sure what. Maybe a power weapon could be purchased for the squad leader and maybe they should come standard with defensive grenades?

pookie
12-01-2010, 17:24
wiping out? foul xenos upstart scum....

on a more serious note, they should NOT be given anything that increase's there combat potential, it goes against there established fluff, its just wishfull thinking imo.

Bassline
12-01-2010, 17:25
Have them have a holo gram machine, giving them hit and run rule. Tau suck as CC but why could they not make a machine that makes the opponent think they are attacking them when the fire warriors are moving back a bit to get in a stance to shoot them?! :P

Aunshiva
12-01-2010, 17:35
No. No close combat for Tau. It violates the fluff in every way imaginable. They can get anti CC help WITHOUT violating the fluff.
-Drone minefield. This drone controlled minefield will go off if any enemy models move over it during assaults or consolidation moves.
-Kroot: Kroot should be I4, Hounds should be 5 or 6. SHAPERS should be allowed to take a power weapon. With those changes, your Kroot won't die to IG troops in CC, and might even take a fair number of orks down with them.
-Firewarriors: Give them a stand and shoot reaction. -1 to hit, just like in Fantasy. Additionally if any Firewarriors survive (HA!) one could give them some manner of rule allowing them to extricate themselves from the fight. Additional Initiative for breaking away, perhaps, but not usable for any other purpose.
-Suits: Why the deuce are Shas'vre better at FIGHTING?!? Why does this upgrade even exist? It's wholly worthless! Shas'vre should be BS4. Done. End of story.

Before the 4th ed book, I really wanted Tau to get Sharpshooters (reroll the first ones to hit for shooting) but with the Markerlight changes, I realized that would be too powerful. I'd rather have markerlights do what they do now than Sharpshooter. But, the trait itself would have allowed Tau to be better at shooting than guardsmen, but not as good as Marines. I find that fair. Anyway, those are my ideas.

Rydmend
12-01-2010, 17:44
wiping out? foul xenos upstart scum....

on a more serious note, they should NOT be given anything that increase's there combat potential, it goes against there established fluff, its just wishfull thinking imo.

Just because the fluff states the prefer shooting to combat doesn't mean they have no notion of close combat existing. If they want to stay at range then it is even more of a reason to have specific devices to let them do so.

Maybe the answer is in more defensive abilities such as if they came with defensive grenades standard or had a squad based flachette launcher upgrade that functioned similarly to the devilfish flachette launcher.
or as stated above, a hit and run type ability were they can easily flee combat and regroup....I dunno.

Bassline
12-01-2010, 17:52
See hit and run not be so broken they do not have a good I so it will happen every now and then and not 95% of the time. Also it makes sense as they all ready can use tech to make vehicles harder to see and shoot at so why not troops? :O

Also make there shooting bit stronger as more things try to out shoot them what is hard sort of, guard can do more shoots but they get no armour save V the Tau 4+ and V marines they wound easier :) plus means if they get assaulted and pass hit and run they get to do rapid fire making there shooting phase stronger as opponent not in cover to!! (People been saying tau need better shooting so why not that?)

Phaedron2
12-01-2010, 17:54
what about an option for a deployable cover upgrade like a shield wall, something that a Shas'ui could deploy and give the squad a 4+ cover save or ever a 5+ invulnerable save out in the open as long as they don't move. along with a points drop and photon grenades as standard, I think it could be a really good unit. As for Kroot, simply drop them 2 points and give the shaper a psychic power or the like to give them frag grenades and they are laughing.

carldooley
12-01-2010, 17:55
agree with hit & Run. Except, with I2 they aren't going to be leaving combat very often. How about something along the lines of the callidus assassin's ability to leave combat before combat, but on something more mundane along the lines of 4+ to leave. Agree that the Shas'ui, & 'vre upgrades should be +1BS instead. Also, markerlights should be able to buff above BS5.

Bassline
12-01-2010, 17:56
what about an option for a deployable cover upgrade like a shield wall, something that a Shas'ui could deploy and give the squad a 4+ cover save or ever a 5+ invulnerable save out in the open as long as they don't move. along with a points drop and photon grenades as standard, I think it could be a really good unit. As for Kroot, simply drop them 2 points and give the shaper a psychic power or the like to give them frag grenades and they are laughing.

Kroot in cover is all ready the most point effeint troop choice in the game

boreas
12-01-2010, 17:59
Kroot in cover is all ready the most point effeint troop choice in the game

Although only in forest. Since CoD and Planestrike building sprues have come out, we only play in cities. Why would anyone fight in a forest in 40k is beyond me. Kroot's fieldcraft ability should work in all types of cover.

Phil

Bassline
12-01-2010, 18:00
Although only in forest. Since CoD and Planestrike building sprues have come out, we only play in cities. Why would anyone fight in a forest in 40k is beyond me. Kroot's fieldcraft ability should work in all types of cover.

Phil

I play nids and i use alot of forests on the table as well we are harvesting it!!!

totgeboren
12-01-2010, 18:01
All suits with the jetpack rule should have the hit-and-run rule, to prevent them from getting bogged down in close combat.

Kroot should get stealth, and I would like fleet for them too, so they acted like in DoW.

Carbines should get Assault 2, maybe drop the pinning rule from them. Allow the pinning rule as an upgrade for the squads. "Under-slung grenade launchers: All attack from the unit made with a carbine cause pinning."

This would then be the weapon of choice for the more aggressive Tau commanders, and also reintroducing the Fish of Fury. We already have the 'Dire Avengers in Wave Serpent' on our tables, and I don't see anyone crying about those. these Fire warriors would essentially behave in the same way on the table.

I could see the range of the pulse rifles being increased to 36". Still rapid fire though.
If people wanna use them to anchor a defensive line, I say let them. All other shooty armies can do it, why not the Tau?

Maybe a slight point reduction to standard Fire warriors, and allow the carbines as an upgrade.

This would allow the Fire warriors to work either as fire supports, holding objectives in their own DZ, whilst still being able to support their friends, or allowing those who want a smaller move'n'shoot army to use their Troops in concert with the rest of the army, and those who want a more hybrid gunline build would get Troops that are useful and helpful for them too.

Troops should always be something you want, though they should not excel at anything.
Making Fire warriors useful for the army is very important.

Bathawk
12-01-2010, 18:01
More blast weapons, all there is now is airbursting fragmentation grenade launcher (only one per army) and the Hammerhead submunition

As opposed to making the Tau more assaulty, I wouldn't mind giving them control over the battlefield...

1.) devices that reduce enemy leaderhip saves withing a 12" to 24" radius
2.) defoilants which destroy cover saves given by vegetation
3.) laser fences like the IG had the amphelion project
4.)drone mine fields
5.)more anti-cover weapons
6.) subterrean ammunition (like the thunderfire cannon has)...creates difficult or dangerous terrain, making it harder for enemies to assault

...So in other words Tau would remain "fluffy" in trying to avoid assault whenever they can...but would do whatever they can to prevent the enemy from assaulting as well

Gaius
12-01-2010, 18:08
It is established that fluffwise Tau are quite weak in close combat compared to other races, but increasing their survivability in hand to hand doesn't necessarily equate to increasing their combat skill and kill potential. As already posted before in this thread, it would be entirely possible to introduce special rules and wargear that allows parts of the Tau army to subtract from potentially disastrous close combats. The XV9 are a step ahead in this direction: those suits aren't really designed for close combat, but carry overwhelming short ranged fire, are more resilient to assaults due to the photon dischargers and T5, and can always hit-and-run. The fact that they are quite expensive and that there may be other options to soak enemy charges is another story, though :D
I see room for little tweaks in the codex that cound tamper with enemy assaults making them less effective, without getting too overboard.

edit: silly me for not mentioning this: I added some stuff to this end in my Tau fan codex, give it a look in the rules development section if you like.

chaos0xomega
12-01-2010, 18:21
Drone minefield, laser fences, or any other form of defensive structure. Tau are known for two things: Ranged capability at the expense of melee, and not fighting defensively. Personally, I think the stand and shoot reaction, and a modified version of hit and run (we gotta be careful with that one, as it could very easily work to make Tau decent at cc).

I like the idea of Flechette/Failsafe drones. Flechetee drones could function like flechette dischargers (going into effect at the start of combat), failsafe drones like the failsafe upgrade for crisis suits, except it happens after the squad has broken from combat (the drone remains in place to take out the enemy troops).

razormasticator
12-01-2010, 18:28
Cheaper transports, this would not help the CC ability, but would bring the dex more in line with other 5th edition books.

Rydmend
12-01-2010, 18:42
What about drones that funcion like "manhacks" from half-life 2. For those of you who have never played it manhacks are flying drones with a series of spinning blades that follow and harrass a target yet are pretty easy to destroy.

Basically a CC oriented drone (could even be a swarm like scarabs) that is cheap and fragile but has the ability to pester the enemy as it advances.

Grax
12-01-2010, 18:43
I agree that close combat Tau violates the fluff (besides perhaps for HQs), and that the best option in that regard would be to give the xenos more combat options, like a power weapon, improved initiative, furious charge, and/or assault guns. Fleshing out kroot hounds so they're their own unit beast unit would also help.

Besides that, I think firewarriors need something to give them a little more of an edge when sitting and shooting. 30in range is nice, but not earth shattering. A heavy weapon option, or the ability to fire multiple times like Noise Marines or Imperial Guardsmen would help.

Finally, the cost of just about everything needs to be lowered a point or two, especially the woefully overpriced stealth suits.

razormasticator
12-01-2010, 18:47
I also think they could stand to beef up the Burst cannon, they just arent that good IMO.

MystheDevourer
12-01-2010, 18:51
Give them the WHFG ability where they can fire at charging foesand allow their normal gun to double tap at max range but if they do they can not shoot at a unit that charges them.
. This will help them immensely. Also increasing their BS by 1 for Fire Warriors (also allow Vet Fire Warriors be taken as a Troop Choice not elite because they would take away from a Suit choice) Give them Wargear to increase their BS for Vet FW's.

Increase BS AROUND THE BOARD! I mean EVERY non vechicle they ahve that is Shooting oriented has a BS of 3!!! that is WAY to underpowered for a army based nearly solely on shooting. . . Give FW's Rail Rifles as well, as a upgrade for X amount of pts.

I could go on and on about this.

Lyinar
12-01-2010, 18:53
Kroot need to be useful in general terrain instead of JUST forests. An armour save would help, as would some integration of the old Kroot Mercenaries rules. Separating Krootoxen out into separate units instead of attaching them to Kroot warbands and stripping said warbands of useful rules in the process would cause them to not be completely useless.

For the Tau themselves... Pathfinders need to be changed somehow. Either make the Devilfish optional and make them cheaper, or make it some insanely awesome modified Devilfish (hell, give IT markerlights...). Give your basic run-of-the-mill Shas'ui the ability to use a networked markerlight to boost his squad's performance. Make Marker Drones cheaper and Shield Drones more useful.

The battlesuits need a bit of work to get the XV8s out of the "deep-strike, kill a couple of high-profile things, then die horribly!" mentality they seem to be in now.

Rydmend
12-01-2010, 18:55
I also think they could stand to beef up the Burst cannon, they just arent that good IMO.

s5 assault 3 isn't too shabby I could maybe see giving it ap4 but thats about it. I think increasing the range, amount of shots or strength is just too much.

MystheDevourer
12-01-2010, 19:00
s5 assault 3 isn't too shabby I could maybe see giving it ap4 but thats about it. I think increasing the range, amount of shots or strength is just too much.

I would say Assault 4 is the most I would go. Giving them AP4 is also good as well.

My biggest problem is that for a small race like the Tau, their Fire Warriors (who are their Fire caste and are trained to be ranged fighters) Are justa as good as a Raw recruit of the Imperial Guard in terms of shooting.

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 19:02
s5 assault 3 isn't too shabby I could maybe see giving it ap4 but thats about it. I think increasing the range, amount of shots or strength is just too much.

Why? Heavy bolters are burstcannons with double the range and a lower ap at the moment. and they are just as prevalent and cheap in imperial armies.

IMO burstcannons should be 18" Str 5 Ap 5 assault 6. Or perhaps assault 4 rending. They would become powerful, but still would suffer from a short range.

Rydmend
12-01-2010, 19:05
I would say Assault 4 is the most I would go. Giving them AP4 is also good as well.

My biggest problem is that for a small race like the Tau, their Fire Warriors (who are their Fire caste and are trained to be ranged fighters) Are justa as good as a Raw recruit of the Imperial Guard in terms of shooting.

This is true, but if you make them bs4 it might be too much especially if they ever get squad based heavy weapons.

razormasticator
12-01-2010, 19:08
Why? Heavy bolters are burstcannons with double the range and a lower ap at the moment. and they are just as prevalent and cheap in imperial armies.

IMO burstcannons should be 18" Str 5 Ap 5 assault 6. Or perhaps assault 4 rending. They would become powerful, but still would suffer from a short range.

I think its the 3 shots i dont like, maybe Str 5, assault 4 or 5 and keep the current AP and that would be a help.

Something along the lines of a lower powered Shuri Cannon. Heavy Bolters have better AP, Multilaser and Scatter Lasers all have higher strengths and or more shots.

chaos0xomega
12-01-2010, 19:11
What about drones that funcion like "manhacks" from half-life 2. For those of you who have never played it manhacks are flying drones with a series of spinning blades that follow and harrass a target yet are pretty easy to destroy.

Basically a CC oriented drone (could even be a swarm like scarabs) that is cheap and fragile but has the ability to pester the enemy as it advances.

I've been suggesting this for a long time. General reaction from the greater tau/warhammer community is NOOOOO!! DATS AGAINZT TEH FLUFFZORZ!!!!1!!11one


Besides that, I think firewarriors need something to give them a little more of an edge when sitting and shooting. 30in range is nice, but not earth shattering. A heavy weapon option, or the ability to fire multiple times like Noise Marines or Imperial Guardsmen would help.


In another thread I suggested dual firing modes for the pulse rifle. 30" Heavy 3 or 12" Assault 2. (Carbines would be 18" Assault 2 pinning)

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 19:11
This is true, but if you make them bs4 it might be too much especially if they ever get squad based heavy weapons.

Well I'll post up some of my revisions for a new tau 'dex in a bit, but I would like to keep squad based heavy weapons to a minimum in tau infantry squads. I wouldn't make everything in the tau list bs4 standard. Just shas'iu's and 'vres, etc.

razormasticator
12-01-2010, 19:12
A CC oriented drone makes alot of sense. And would not take GW a heck of alot to do something about. Design and add on sprue and sell drones in squads in separate boxes, sort of like Sister Repentia or something like that.

MystheDevourer
12-01-2010, 19:13
This is true, but if you make them bs4 it might be too much especially if they ever get squad based heavy weapons.

They dont really need it then with a S5 weapon and a BS4 they can stop most transports with glancing hits obviously.

Also if they get the Stand and Shoot for a -1 BS they increase survivability. For heavy weapons for Tau fluff wise your talking about a Rail Rifle. Thats about the only thing I can see for them.

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 19:18
Okay here are some ideas I had from another thread:



Crisis Suits:
-cost 30 points base
-same stats except bs 4
-same # of hardpoints
-can take doubles of a weapon and fire each seperately (with a multitracker). So you could have a suit with two burst cannons and a multi tracker for example. Or on a 'vre suit or commander: 1 burst cannon and 1 twin-linked burst cannon with a hardwired multitracker.
-make take same drone entries as firewarrior squad.
-AFP and CIB become standard issue.

Firewarriors:
-Cost 8 points
-pulse carbines are assault 2 (pinning)
-Pulse rifles are 12" assault 2 or 30" heavy 3.
-Same stats as before
-Free Shas'ui upgrade to one member of squad (like IG infantry)
-Shas'ui comes with markerlight standard and drone controller (optional - free), BS 4, LD 8. 2 drones max.
-New Drone Choices:
- Gun Drones: cost reduced to 4 points per drone
- Shield Drone: cost reduced to 8 points per drone
- Heavy Gun Drone: 12 points per drone. Equipped with TL Burstcannon.
- Overwatch Drone: If the squad is charged while this drone is alive, they may take a leadership test. If passed, the squad is allowed to shoot their guns prior to normal CC attacks as if they were in their own shooting phase. Enemy units suffering 25% casualties from this shooting do not have to test for morale. The casualties caused are counted for CC resolution. 25 points or so, not sure.
- Eagle Eye Drone: Increases each model in the squad's BS by 1 while the drone is alive. 20 points.
- Marker Drone: Networked Markerlight, advanced targetting array - BS 4 markerlight. 12 points.
Transport:
Firewarriors may take a Devilfish Transport.

Devilfish: 60 points base. Comes with Burstcannon and gun drones. + 20 for a pair of burst cannons (total of 3 burst cannons) or + 10 for SMS.

Burst Cannons- same, except changed to assault 5.
Smart missile system- same, except changed to str 6 ap 4.
That is of course just a very general attempt. But I'd like to see kor'vesa (drones) used to upgrade firewarriors squads.


edit: I keep adding more.

Drakcore Bloodtear
12-01-2010, 19:20
Drone minefield, laser fences, or any other form of defensive structure. Tau are known for two things: Ranged capability at the expense of melee, and not fighting defensively. Personally, I think the stand and shoot reaction, and a modified version of hit and run (we gotta be careful with that one, as it could very easily work to make Tau decent at cc).

I like the idea of Flechette/Failsafe drones. Flechetee drones could function like flechette dischargers (going into effect at the start of combat), failsafe drones like the failsafe upgrade for crisis suits, except it happens after the squad has broken from combat (the drone remains in place to take out the enemy troops).

Exactly what he said

Plus increase BS for everything except maybe Firewarriors (but they have markerlights)

Make Kroot I4

Could Tau please have a different HQ option, I mean I'm all in Battlesuit commanders but why do they all have to be in the XV8 suits why not something like XV22 for example

I want more Battlesuits in the Codex al we have is XV8, XV88 and XV25 what about different battlesuit options like the tank options in the Guard codex

Make Markerlights Assult instead of Heavy, I never got that, is it so hard to get a small control out of your pocket and fire at something?

Get rid of, or make Ethereal's better

Make honour guard a proper choice

Make the Vespid Neutron blaster range 18", I'm tired of having to get charged every time I want to shoot something

I don't know what but changed the Sky Ray, I used it once and it did nothing useful

And finally Tau arn't there to make gunlines so barriers and what-not are out of the picture but instead make Tau more movable not as fast as Eldar but something eles

Now thats all I can think of at the moment but if all of that were to change maybe the upstart little empire might go somewhere
:)

MystheDevourer
12-01-2010, 19:24
Okay here are some ideas I had from another thread:

Firewarriors:
-Cost 8 points
-pulse carbines are assault 2 (pinning)
-Pulse rifles are 12" assault 2 or 30" heavy 3.
-Same stats as before
-Free Shas'ui upgrade to one member of squad (like IG infantry)
-Shas'ui comes with markerlight standard and drone controller (optional - free), BS 4, LD 8. 2 drones max.
-New Drone Choices:
- Gun Drones: cost reduced to 4 points per drone
- Shield Drone: cost reduced to 8 points per drone
- Heavy Gun Drone: 12 points per drone. Equipped with TL Burstcannon.
- Overwatch Drone: If the squad is charged while this drone is alive, they may take a leadership test. If passed, the squad is allowed to shoot their guns prior to normal CC attacks as if they were in their own shooting phase. Enemy units suffering 25% casualties from this shooting do not have to test for morale. The casualties caused are counted for CC resolution. 25 points or so, not sure.
- Eagle Eye Drone: Increases each model in the squad's BS by 1 while the drone is alive. 20 points.
- Marker Drone: Networked Markerlight, advanced targetting array - BS 4 markerlight. 12 points.
Transport:
Firewarriors may take a Devilfish Transport.

Devilfish: 60 points base. Comes with Burstcannon and gun drones. + 20 for a pair of burst cannons (total of 3 burst cannons) or + 10 for SMS.

Burst Cannons- same, except changed to assault 5.
Smart missile system- same, except changed to str 6 ap 4.
That is of course just a very general attempt. But I'd like to see kor'vesa (drones) used to upgrade firewarriors squads.

Those 2 drones are my favorite! They should get to shoot at 1 higher I then what is charging and get one less attack durring CC if they survive for the Overwatch. At I2 they wont even get a shot off most times.

Now I can see Overwatch drones and Egale Eye Drones as mandatory for FW sqads.

carldooley
12-01-2010, 19:31
an old idea from the hoary past:

2. rework burst cannons - Str7Ap5 Assault1, with the option to change its stats to Str6Ass2, Str5Ass3, Str4Ass4, Str3ss5, Str2Ass6, or Str1Ass7 could be a more fluffy incarnation of the 'burst' cannon.

for a full list, try here:

no point retyping all that.

chaos0xomega
12-01-2010, 19:32
And if you add in Failsafe Drones and Flechette Drones :shock: all of a sudden you have an interesting set of 4 options, and you can only choose 2!! List building is fun again!

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 19:37
And if you add in Failsafe Drones and Flechette Drones :shock: all of a sudden you have an interesting set of 4 options, and you can only choose 2!! List building is fun again!

Indeed, I would go crazy if tau units had the options for...
gun drones
shield drones
overwatch drones
eagle eye drones
flechette drones
failsafe drones
marker drones

...but could only choose 2 drones per model with a drone controller.

The customization, it burns so good.

chaos0xomega
12-01-2010, 19:49
now if only the design studio would read this thread....

oh and you forgot marker drones

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 19:50
indeed i did. One can wish haha

the1stpip
12-01-2010, 19:55
A lot of this is not ever going to happen. Tau are not broken, they just need a few tweaks and the older rules replacing.

There will never be a stand and shoot option for any army, cos if you do, you might as well remove all CC from the game and have a pure shooty game.

chaos0xomega
12-01-2010, 20:03
considering that tau firewarriors are almost incapable of killing even a guardsman in close combat, I'd say stand and shoot for a firewarrior squad in the first round of combat would go a long way to balance them out without breaking the game. I hardly see how making it an option for a couple units in an army means you should remove all cc from the game.

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 20:06
A lot of this is not ever going to happen. Tau are not broken, they just need a few tweaks and the older rules replacing.

There will never be a stand and shoot option for any army, cos if you do, you might as well remove all CC from the game and have a pure shooty game.

Tau need a bunch of tweaks. I would call it a serious tweeking. What they don't need, unlike Necrons and DE, is a complete redesigning of their rules and playstyle.

Scarob
12-01-2010, 20:12
As opposed to the other thread this is specifcally dealing with assault and nothing else.

I think *some* assault ability is required beyond kroot.

I think an close combat varient Battlesuit would fit the bill and an assault oriented HQ as well.

I also think that kroot need a revamp with a 6+ save coming standard and the shaper bringing it to 5+ along with move through cover instead of thier current cover moving ability that only works in forest.

Fire warriors could stand to have something that helps combat ability as well but I'm not sure what. Maybe a power weapon could be purchased for the squad leader and maybe they should come standard with defensive grenades?

First of all i play nids and grey knights so only know some basic fluff about tau as i havent read the codex, but i agree with some things that youve said Rydmend. Battle suits should have more close orientated weapons, but not a cc type... it seems to0 un-tau like from my point of view. Tau are suposed to be the best ranged specialist in the game (from what i get fluff wise, but sadly dont see it in games against them), so combat really isnt an option!

I did randomly think of how about a type of suit for Kroot, or their Shapers... but then thats un Kroot like as well, that lead me to think of more varients of Drones, like ones equiped with flamers, or maybe stronger weapons that have a shorter range but the drones themselves are tougher... this would make them more of an annoyance rather than a plate with a pea shooter Oo i love the idea of a decent drone army but you HAVE to have tau and suit in the army for it to work properly................. :wtf: typing this post made me think, if the Tau are masters of technology and ranged weapons, why dont they have a pure drone army... if they had that then id start Tau just for that XD... master drone as HQ with optional shield drones and gun drones, normal drones as Troops, deep striking drones for FA, sniper drones for HS, and maybe a heavily equiped drone for an extra HS, and Aunshiva's idea of a drone mine field.... endless choice, :shifty: makes me want to continue with my secret Squig codex, and no im not making it as ridiculus as some people have done with home made Squig codexs




Firewarriors: Give them a stand and shoot reaction. -1 to hit, just like in Fantasy. Additionally if any Firewarriors survive (HA!) one could give them some manner of rule allowing them to extricate themselves from the fight. Additional Initiative for breaking away, perhaps, but not usable for any other purpose.


I agree totally with this! it would add an additional element to watch out for when going against fire warriors, and possibly deter getting in combat with them for fear of losing a good unit! but as for having a power weapon upgrade i dont think thats Tau like, not even for Kroot or Vespids! an overload rule for weapons might work, say on a 5+ the weapon gets +1S making the wepon a little more dangerous and Marine threatening but not a massacre


And if you add in Failsafe Drones and Flechette Drones :shock: all of a sudden you have an interesting set of 4 options, and you can only choose 2!! List building is fun again!

hehe i just hope its like that for the new nids! but my hopes arnt high for it though :( lol

Scarob
12-01-2010, 20:15
Tau need a bunch of tweaks. I would call it a serious tweeking. What they don't need, unlike Necrons and DE, is a complete redesigning of their rules and playstyle.

unfortunately with what iv read about the new nids, tau will probably end up pure combat with crap ranged weapons..... GW seem to like making pointless and irellevant changes to codexs now!! ....:cries: i long for the day that GW goes back to being a hobbiests company and not a business, everyone would benefit from it!!

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 20:27
unfortunately with what iv read about the new nids, tau will probably end up pure combat with crap ranged weapons..... GW seem to like making pointless and irellevant changes to codexs now!! ....:cries: i long for the day that GW goes back to being a hobbiests company and not a business, everyone would benefit from it!!

Your opinion about the new Tyranid codex and GW as a company had little to do about a future tau codex, lets try to stay on topic at least a bit.

Chucklemoney
12-01-2010, 20:27
why dont they have a pure drone army

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYIlM_tVphA

Not sure how they would work it on the table right enough...

Rydmend
12-01-2010, 20:36
Some defensive upgrades are defiantly in line. Right now if I reach combat against fire warriors with one or god forbid two genestealers I will win combat and break the unit and run them down.

I like the ideas concerning different types of drones with a 2 drone limit per squad.

Something like this maybe:

flachette launcher: Any unit wishing to charge a squad with a flachette drone suffers d6 s3 hits with normal saves allowed. All wounds caused count toward combat resolution.

These drones in a squad would be pretty useful and really help to stop the "one berzerker/genestealer/striking scorpion got to your unit and now it will destroy 100 points of models" syndrome.

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 20:42
Some defensive upgrades are defiantly in line. Right now if I reach combat against fire warriors with one or god forbid two genestealers I will win combat and break the unit and run them down.

I like the ideas concerning different types of drones with a 2 drone limit per squad.

Something like this maybe:

flachette launcher: Any unit wishing to charge a squad with a flachette drone suffers d6 s3 hits with normal saves allowed. All wounds caused count toward combat resolution.

These drones in a squad would be pretty useful and really help to stop the "one berzerker/genestealer/striking scorpion got to your unit and now it will destroy 100 points of models" syndrome.

Thats interesting, but why not something more like the actual current tau flechette launcher? d6 or so hits that wound on a 4+? Currently every attacking model is wounded on a 4+ (which by the way, is not nearly as effective as it seems. except against orks.)

MystheDevourer
12-01-2010, 20:45
unfortunately with what iv read about the new nids, tau will probably end up pure combat with crap ranged weapons..... GW seem to like making pointless and irellevant changes to codexs now!! ....:cries: i long for the day that GW goes back to being a hobbiests company and not a business, everyone would benefit from it!!

Actually the new Tyranid codex is justa bout right. Its focused on more of troop and elite choices (which IMHO is whats nids are about) then MCs. people should not get in that old mantra that the change of things are bad, change is not always bad and since its not huge i am still ok with it. I live to adapt. Tau will never become CC oriented simple and true and I doubt GW will change that.

They do need alot of Stat tweaks like I had mentioned prior.

Carlos
12-01-2010, 20:54
Tau dont need anything to make them survive better in close combat. Photon grenades at the minute are a waste of point because you want firewarriors to leg it asap so you can get back on with shooting the enemy, not being tied down in assault which effectively eliminates your striking power.

Changes?

Kroot get Stealth, MTC and optional fleet USR

Fire Warriors get +1pts per model personal targeting array's that only work when stationary due to requiring time to lock on to targets

Cheaper Crisis suits, more options on par with wolf guard

Tetra, Piranha 2, XV7 Hazard and Orca in normal army list. Orca deploys like drop pod, skimmer from then on a la Valkyrie.

Icefire EMP weapon option for hammerhead (Auto crew stunned, Roll D6: 1-2 no effect, 3-4 glancing hit, 5-6 penetrating hit. No effect on Infantry)
Darkstar Neutron weapon option for hammerhead (5" Blast, Poisoned 2+, AP5, No effect on vehicles)

Puretide, Farsight, Shadowsun, R'myr, Aun'shi, Aun'va, Stealth-guy, XV7 guy and tank commander special characters. Puretide = Calgar but with shooting. Aun'va gives all Tau within LOS counts-as twin linked weapons.

dtjunkie19
12-01-2010, 21:13
Fire Warriors get +1pts per model personal targeting array's that only work when stationary due to requiring time to lock on to targets


most of your other changes are interesting, but I have to say no, no, no, no dear god no. firewarriors are point for point one of the worst basic troop choices in the game. They deserve a points drop and more effective options. Forcing them to remain static would make that upgrade useless.

chaos0xomega
12-01-2010, 21:16
Orca is a superheavy, not happening.

We dont need icefire/darkstar stuff, it should remain in apoc, we already have a railgun that does the anti-vehicle stuff good enough, and it can fire submunition rounds which are better than darkstars vs. most infantry. If anything, there are about 5 weapon options available from forgeworld which should be included.

As for cc buffs, yes, we do need them. We play on tables, not infinite battlefields, you can only run for so far, and most of the scary things that we are afraid of getting in cc with can run faster...

in addition to that, the newer codecies are adding more and more units which can come in close to you and rip you to pieces and you have limited ability to do anything in return(Ymgarl stealers, death leaper, lictors, trygons/mawlocs, sly marbo, etc. granted half those things cant assault on the turn they arrive, but they can still put the hurting on, and are pretty difficult to eliminate due to special rules/being hard).

PLUS, almost everything in the game has a better initiative than Tau. We have next to no ability to successfuly break off from assault, especially not vs. actual assault troops.

Voss
12-01-2010, 21:19
wiping out? foul xenos upstart scum....

on a more serious note, they should NOT be given anything that increase's there combat potential, it goes against there established fluff, its just wishfull thinking imo.

It may be against their fluff, but ignoring 1/3 of the game is what really breaks them as an army. Kroot don't cut it in close combat- average initiative, T3 and no armour save doesn't make for an effective close combat unit.

Combined with the general 5th edition trend of things that just show up and don't have to cross the board in the face of the big guns, Tau are hurting more and more with every codex released.


The other problem they have is juggling the markerlights. At the moment there are a lot of problems with cost effectiveness and the post cost of marker lights taking away too many points from the guns you want to guide in the first place. The opportunity cost is simple too high for their relatively low effectiveness.

Cerraand
12-01-2010, 21:20
Make Markerlights Assult instead of Heavy, I never got that, is it so hard to get a small control out of your pocket and fire at something?


Probably because it's the same as a laser designator : it doesn't have recoil or whatever, but you have to point at the target for some time, so heavy makes sense (even if game-wise it makes them harder to use)

MystheDevourer
12-01-2010, 21:23
most of your other changes are interesting, but I have to say no, no, no, no dear god no. firewarriors are point for point one of the worst basic troop choices in the game. They deserve a points drop and more effective options. Forcing them to remain static would make that upgrade useless.

Agreed. For an army that has survived off the fact that it wins because of sheer amounts of accurate fire. The actual tabletop army lacks that nearly 100%.

Kogod
12-01-2010, 22:23
This is what I posted in the other thread. All of these units need buffs.

A huge problem is that there are clearly some units that are completely overshadowed by other alternatives or are clearly crappy.

The units that comes to mind are:

1. Vespids. Totally weak and vulnerable to all type of small-arms fire. Their damage output is pitiful and their range is terrible.

2. Krootox. Completely overshadowed by the broadside and not very impressive and significantly underpowered according to its price.

3. Tau Ethereals. Truly unimpressive and expensive. These guys look like wimps next to Eldar Farseers or even any decent psychers. The other HQ battle suit commander choices are much better as well.

4. Kroot Shaper. He really does not bring anything to the Kroot Carnivor squad and is over-priced. He needs his abilities reworked.

5. Piranha. These are extremely flimsy and it help if they got some abilities to help them survive better.

King in Yellow
12-01-2010, 22:51
I have a suggestion. Why don't they just make Pathfinders troop choices? Just drop their transport requirement, and if they lower the cost of fire warriors then just keep them the same point cost.
On that note, they should also make stealth suit teams fast attack choices.

chaos0xomega
12-01-2010, 23:23
No, the Fast Attack section is already too heavy as it is. Stealth Suits should remain elite options (although an HQ that allows them to be taken as something else wouldnt be bad) and Pathfinders should either remain fast or be moved to elite.

MystheDevourer
13-01-2010, 00:09
Probably because it's the same as a laser designator : it doesn't have recoil or whatever, but you have to point at the target for some time, so heavy makes sense (even if game-wise it makes them harder to use)

Tell that to the army guys who guide Missile with Infared Marker Lights. Those green lights form transformers 1 is a reality.

squeekenator
13-01-2010, 01:39
(Warning: Shameless self-plugging approaching) This thread inspired me to write a Tau codex (link (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4292074#post4292074)) that I hope would solve the problems the Tau are facing right now.

Amornar
13-01-2010, 04:03
I am all in favor of a lot of the drone options that have been mentioned, giving both flavor and customability to tau armies.

Options to have units of heavy gun drones also a plus.

I also think that markerlights should be assault. Pathfinders are a FAST ATTACK choice, why are they hauling around all these heavy weapons. It is already hard enough to hit with BS 3. Make markerlights assault and that will allow pathfinders to get in and out of enemy territory quickly like they are supposed to.

Ballistic skill increases should only come to suits, representing built in targeting arrays. Markerlights should remain the main way to increase ballistic skill for units like fire warriors, etc.

Kroot need a good tweek, everyone seems to be on the same page about them. Fleet and move through cover would be my biggest suggestions.

As others have said the book doesn't need a huge amount of work, just tweeks in skills/stats/weapons.

One thing that should really be considered by us is that all new codices are coming out with new units, some are very worth taking, others are just shiny new models but are not that great on the table. What do we feel we need that can be fullfilled by new units.

I think that a new tank, new suit and some new auxillaries are the way to go. Another auxillary with some decent close combat ability would be great. A new suit, either a better commander chassis or a mass produced Shadowsun suit, or both would be terrific. These new suits would allow for a single unit to do the job of crisis and stealth suits, but not as good as either. Not really sure what a new tank could bring, but I bet we get one, might as well come up with some things that would be useful so we don't get another skyray.

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 04:22
I'm personally a favor of a new heavy support aux. unit similar to the hunters/lekgolo from Halo. I'm thinking monstrous creatures that must be purchased as a unit of 2. Give it a Thundershield equivalent(3++ save but only usable vs. ranged attacks), a high strength low ap weapon that produces small blast templates. High strength, high toughness, multiple wounds, low weapon skill and initiative and attacks (to reduce it's viability as a cc unit), and call it a day.

Creeping Dementia
13-01-2010, 04:40
Lol, if they start giving Halo units to the Tau I think I'd have to stop playing with them. That would really be a glaring alarm that GW has totally run out of ideas.

Rydmend
13-01-2010, 04:47
What about working some forge world units into the mix like the tyranids did with the trygon?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/KROOT.html

Some of these kroot add ons might be cool. Knarloc riders or great knarlocs would be pretty sweet.

Tau fielding CC oriented MC's and assult cav? Too much?

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 04:48
Lol, if they start giving Halo units to the Tau I think I'd have to stop playing with them. That would really be a glaring alarm that GW has totally run out of ideas.

What the Prophe... oh I mean ethereals and Aun'Va don't count?

dtjunkie19
13-01-2010, 06:32
Alright, time for more wishlisting!

I already covered what I think would be good changes to crisis suits and firewarriors previously in the thread.

Stealth suits:

-stealth field spotting distance lowered to 2d6x2.
-skirmishers. Stealth Suits benefit from the hit and run rule and add 1 to their initiative test.
-decoy mines: at any point during their JSJ assault move, a stealth team may deploy decoy mines. Place a marker. Any enemy units that move within 3 inches of the marker count as moving in difficult terrain and may not benefit from move through cover.
-any model may upgrade their burst cannon to a fusion blaster at +5 points per model.
-Shas'vre may choose to upgrade to a fusion rifle (multimelta stats) for +10 points.
-compromised security: may never be joined by an IC unless the IC also is equipped with a stealth field.
-maybe slight point increase.

New Vehicle:

Stonefish - FA-13 SA-12 RA-10
-equipped with two Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors (would be defensive since they are str 4:))
-Ion Disruptor Cannon, new profile- 36" strength 7 ap 3 heavy 3 blast.
-may transport 6 models
-similar to hammerhead in cost


Kroot:
-Same points cost. Shaper upgrade mandatory, costs as twice as much as a normal kroot would. 6+ armour save default. shaper LD 8, I4.
-Move through cover, infiltrate and stealth USRs default
-Krootox do not cause the squad to lose infiltrate

HQ:

Master Shaper:
-100 points base
-Same stats as shaper, except WS 5, I5, 3 wounds 4 attacks base.
-Stonehead totem- 4+ invulnerable
-Carries oathstone blade and kroot rifle. Counts as having 2 CC weapons. poisoned (3+).

May carry one of the following totems.
-Skullcrack totem: unit gains furious charge as long as the Master Shaper is alive. 30 points.
-Swiftfoot Totem- Unit gains fleet as long as the Master Shaper is alive - 15 points.

The idea basically is to not only increase the effectiveness of certain tau units, but to give tau some interesting new methods to shake things up so to speak. While stat and point changes are nice, I want to see things like stealth suits getting some new options or abilities to change up their playstyle a bit, make them more like the rapid strike skirmishing forces they are.

Just throwing out some ideas. Its fun to wishlist :D

Amornar
13-01-2010, 07:05
dtjunkie19's post brings up another point in that we really should have a multimelta equivalent "fusion rifle", that would replace a piranha's fusion blaster, imperial speeders can have 2 multimeltas at BS 4 base, but we only get a single meltagun? If a stealth suit can wield one with no problem I got to imagine we can upgrade to a slightly larger on for a skimmer....

Burst cannons have already been discussed, I would also love to see plasma rifles go to assault 2, but I doubt that will happen, we already pay enough points for them anyway.

I know that I will get flamed for this BUT in relation to Tau being all anti-combat we do have Farsight with the Dawnblade that shows that some Tau realize it might be more useful to carry a blade rather than beat orks over the head with your arm like a club. Therefore I think that a SINGLE special issue power weapon should be added to our armoury. Adds some flavor, a little versatility, and doesn't break the fluff that Tau don't like combat.

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 07:24
New Vehicle:

Stonefish - FA-13 SA-12 RA-10
-equipped with two Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors (would be defensive since they are str 4:))
-Ion Disruptor Cannon, new profile- 36" strength 7 ap 3 heavy 3 blast.
-may transport 6 models
-similar to hammerhead in cost


I'd make the "ion disruptor cannon" the stats for the ion cannon
and give the airbursting fragmentation projector stats (but two shots and maybe an ap value) to the forgeworld missile launcher turret (and include that in the codex of course).


Master Shaper:
-100 points base
-Same stats as shaper, except WS 5, I5, 3 wounds 4 attacks base.
-Stonehead totem- 4+ invulnerable
-Carries oathstone blade and kroot rifle. Counts as having 2 CC weapons. poisoned (3+).

May carry one of the following totems.
-Skullcrack totem: unit gains furious charge as long as the Master Shaper is alive. 30 points.
-Swiftfoot Totem- Unit gains fleet as long as the Master Shaper is alive - 15 points.

The idea basically is to not only increase the effectiveness of certain tau units, but to give tau some interesting new methods to shake things up so to speak. While stat and point changes are nice, I want to see things like stealth suits getting some new options or abilities to change up their playstyle a bit, make them more like the rapid strike skirmishing forces they are.

No, HQ choices should remain Tau only. This is Codex: Tau Empires, not Codex: You can do Tau or Kroot Mercs or... You should always be forced to have one Tau unit in the list, and that should be the HQ. A shaper isn't going to be trusted to lead a force of Tau units.

Now, what SHOULD happen, is that you can upgrade one shaper in your army to a Master Shaper...

dtjunkie19
13-01-2010, 07:27
Well then you can make a commander or ethereal required if you must. As a squad upgrade is fine too, but that actually makes the choice more powerful due to not taking up a FOC.

Yeah, Ion cannon Ion Disrupter same thing haha.

blurrymadness
13-01-2010, 08:40
now if only the design studio would read this thread....

oh and you forgot marker drones

Ugh, I hope not. Most of these ideas are terrible.

Complete nonsense

"Let's make burst cannons with assault cannon profiles". Yeah that's a great idea. We need assault cannon-spam again right?

"Let's make em good at CC" Sweet. **** off the guys who like the army for the sake of people who don't play it enough, sales go up for a month, back to normal.

"Let's lower EVERYTHING'S COST by massive percentages AND buff everything." Do you guys really see that happening in other codices? This is my biggest biff. A bunch of Nubz complaining about balance they don't understand.

What we've seen
Orks went down massively in cost yes, but at the same time they lost:
-initiative
-Heavy rule
-squad specialists (no Tankbusta bombs, no burnas, no krak grenades, nothing)
-0-1 restriction on Ard Boyz

Space wolves? They went down to the cost everyone else is at. What did they lose?
-Multiple special weapons OR the ability to have a WG in a transport.
-Multiple special CCWs
-The price of CCWs went up drastically (to modern codex standards)

CSM
-Went up in cost
-lost veteran abilities
-banners instead of marks
-etc..

These are just the troop choices. The point is, none of the suggestions in here are realistic, because Tau aren't that bad. They need some changing, but not straight buffs with no practical nerfs (nerfing the CC ability of the suits doesn't count.) This means you could expect to pay the same for firewarriors with the same stats, but a special rule, maybe a different gun, etc. Heavy 3 30" Don't be ridiculous. Get out of combat-rules? Outlandish. The point of the army, if any army, is finesse. You should be able to avoid combat, like 'dancing' units in an RTS does, not simply avoid it because of lame rules that allow it so any Nub can avoid it.

Practical Ideas

A few ideas here such as:
-Dangerous/Difficult terrain affects
-Markerlight modifications (to make them more easily usable)
-Changes to the pulse rifle to help make it less static/better for shooting (maybe 18" assault 2, or a rapid fire with a special rule to make it longer ranged)


What to expect

Maybe making the elite firewarriors of the Ethereal troops etc. These are things we could expect from a 5th ed codex. Let's be real here and not just shout every ludicrous thing that comes to mind.

5th ed codices:
-Improve mobility either by allowing outflankers, transports, DSing or similar
-Decrease costs with nerfs to prevent min-maxing and spamming (OR increase costs and radically change/buff the unit. Carnifex and Ogryns make sense here)
-MASSIVE OVERHAULS. (Lootas, Looted tanks, tankbustas, Boyz, all got changed drastically. units were lost, units were created. Look at the nid dex! nothing stayed the same! This is what you can expect)
-Reliance on USRs, both for special rules and for applying these rules to units.
-HQs typically assist the army in some special way (improvements, force org slots, orders, psychic powers that affect friendlies)
-more stuff/options

polymphus
13-01-2010, 09:29
Maybe making the elite firewarriors of the Ethereal troops etc.

Wait, you rail against direct buffs as noobish then suggest BS4 fire warriors as the way to go?

The main problem with the Tau is that they have no direction. Are they the static long ranged gunline? No, guard have that down. Are they the super mobile elite shooting force? No, that's the Eldar's niche. What I think Tau need to be is a guerilla army. Without trying to sound too fanboyish, they need to be like ninja; striking quickly at exposed targets and then throwing down a smoke bomb and pegging it.

To that end I think the Tau need the following
-Less close range units. Tau are meant to be a long/extremely long range army. While a that would be impractical in 40K gameplay terms, the army needs less of a focus on in your face rapid firing.
-Slowdown effects. Things like blind grenades or the snare trap from Dawn of War that reduce enemy mobility. In terms of sheer speed Tau shouldn't be able to beat Eldar, choosing instead to slow the enemy down.
-Increased mobility. Not speed. I'm talking more JSJ/hit and run units. Things that aren't fast but are extremely manoeuvrable.
-KP denial. Stealth fields, hit n' run, you get it. Again, think Ninja. He's squishy as hell but his strength lies in the fact you've got to find him first.

Thoughts?

Lord Solar Plexus
13-01-2010, 09:49
The main problem with the Tau is that they have no direction. Are they the static long ranged gunline? No, guard have that down. Are they the super mobile elite shooting force? No, that's the Eldar's niche. What I think Tau need to be is a guerilla army.

You cannot think in terms of such archetypes anymore, polymphus. Most modern codices have various builds and some archetypes have completely gone out of fashion. The popular Guard builds for example emphasize a highly mobile strike force with lots of precision instruments and even many infantry-dominated lists are a far cry from a gunline. Eldar can be played in different styles as well.

Tau need to focus on technology to improve the forces on the ground. They already do that but of course some of it needs an overhaul. Things like markerlights and suits and drones convey this feeling and I think this is where one should look first. That may well mean that a defensive build emphasizing a firepower doctrine and an aggressive build relying on mobility or something inbetween will both be viable.

wilsongrahams
13-01-2010, 09:53
In my opinion, Tau need to stop trying to be too Manga and cool, and become a real race, rather than the puritan rightful rulers of the galaxy etc rubbish.

They need some light vehicles that aren't men, in my opinion, or something like the Titan from C&C Tiberian Sun.

azimaith
13-01-2010, 10:00
Wait, you rail against direct buffs as noobish then suggest BS4 fire warriors as the way to go?

The main problem with the Tau is that they have no direction. Are they the static long ranged gunline? No, guard have that down. Are they the super mobile elite shooting force? No, that's the Eldar's niche. What I think Tau need to be is a guerilla army. Without trying to sound too fanboyish, they need to be like ninja; striking quickly at exposed targets and then throwing down a smoke bomb and pegging it.

To that end I think the Tau need the following
-Less close range units. Tau are meant to be a long/extremely long range army. While a that would be impractical in 40K gameplay terms, the army needs less of a focus on in your face rapid firing.
-Slowdown effects. Things like blind grenades or the snare trap from Dawn of War that reduce enemy mobility. In terms of sheer speed Tau shouldn't be able to beat Eldar, choosing instead to slow the enemy down.
-Increased mobility. Not speed. I'm talking more JSJ/hit and run units. Things that aren't fast but are extremely manoeuvrable.
-KP denial. Stealth fields, hit n' run, you get it. Again, think Ninja. He's squishy as hell but his strength lies in the fact you've got to find him first.

Thoughts?
Ninja vanish tau is Mont'ka, Guerilla tau is Kauyon.

The thing is *none* of those function well with "Long" range.

Mont'ka is a rapid assault with overwhelming force, Kauyon is an ambush using a lure. Mont'ka is a storming fast moving hard hitting close up force while Kauyon uses a lure to *draw targets in close* before unloading hell on them.

You simply can not storm a fortress if your standing at maximum range pinging shots at its walls. If you want to depict a race that does not utilize sieges and static defense you give them shotguns so to speak, not sniper rifles.

As such tau need to go the complete opposite direction and need to be close up fast movers most dangerous right up next to the enemy to fit with the fluff.

Tau are not born snipers or siege fighters lobbing shells from miles off. They're short ranged precise users of overwhelming firepower in the background.

Now long range is a relative term in 40k background, but a rapid fire 30" range gun is not well suited to an ambush (where you are waiting in hiding drawing prey near where your extra range is wasted) or storming an enemy (by which you must draw close to the point where your in close quarters warfare.

Fish of Fury is the best example of a Kauyon or Mont'ka type of combat. The tau don't skulk in the distance taking pot shots, they move in aggressively toward a unit that's either been pulled in as it chased something else or directly rushed at by the devilfish after which point the tau disembark and pour as much punishing close range fire into them as possible to try to ensure their destruction. That is the essence of the tau style of war. Tau should rely more heavily on kroot in an assault role while tau firewarriors and pathfinders should carry more assault style weapons that get more vicious as they get closer.

Furthermore, this explains why they don't carry squad heavy weapons, they want to be mobile and they can't wait for someone to brace while they storm an enemy position. They instead use longer ranged support to augment their firepower without losing mobility.

What tau need to look like to fit fluff is something more like this:
Pulse Rifle: 24" Assault 1, 12" Assault 2.
Pulse Carbine: 18" Assault 1, 6" Assault 1 blast (They get close enough to utilize their grenade launchers)
Markerlight: 24" Assault 1
Photon Grenade: Defensive grenade, grants initiative 4 when rolling for sweeping advance (it blinds and disorients them as they charge them)
Tau with a shas'ui have Hit and Run.
Seeker Missile: S8 AP1 Unlimited Range.

With a set up like this tau change from "I shoot you, I shoot you, I shoot you, Oh god your tearing my eyeballs out through my eye sockets and strangling me with them glurglgll!!!
To: I shoot you, I shoot the absolute hell out of you, I get charged and savaged but I drop photon flashes and escape while you're disoriented and charge you with kroot.

Tau need to stop being an army that wets its pants every time an enemy gets close to them, you can't storm a building if you can't get close, you can't ambush a squad if your terrified of it getting within 20 meters of you.

Tau, by their background, need to be an auxillary supported force and there should never be an event where you *don't* want kroot near your tau (well friendly kroot.) Tau should desire to get up close and engage in close quarters firefights, their weakness in CC needs to be mitigated by kroot while the kroots weakness of armor needs to be mitigated by tau blasting the living crap out of whatever the kroot charge.

Kroot should be something more like this:
Current profile:
Fieldcraft:"Kroot have affinity for fighting in dense forested terrain and throughout their time with the tau empire, have also become accomplished city fighters. Kroot may be deployed normally or may be held in reserve. When kroot leave reserves they must be deployed in area terrain and within 12" of a friendly tau unit. These kroot do not scatter and may move, charge, and shoot on the turn they arrive."

Suddenly kroot become tau's guardian angels rather than their hoped speed bumps. You could get up close with the tau, unload tons of fire, get charged, have kroot leap from the ruins or forest, and counter charge while the tau toss out their photons and hit and run away.

Boom, tau and kroot working *in concert* effectively in slightly unusual (the tau are the bait) kauyon maneuver.

Raxmei
13-01-2010, 11:02
Insightful. I don't agree with those exact profiles or special rules but the underlying thought appears sound.

dtjunkie19
13-01-2010, 11:08
Kroot should be something more like this:
Current profile:
Fieldcraft:"Kroot have affinity for fighting in dense forested terrain and throughout their time with the tau empire, have also become accomplished city fighters. Kroot may be deployed normally or may be held in reserve. When kroot leave reserves they must be deployed in area terrain and within 12" of a friendly tau unit. These kroot do not scatter and may move, charge, and shoot on the turn they arrive."

Suddenly kroot become tau's guardian angels rather than their hoped speed bumps. You could get up close with the tau, unload tons of fire, get charged, have kroot leap from the ruins or forest, and counter charge while the tau toss out their photons and hit and run away.



Without a +1 to their cover save I think kroot would become worse not better. They can already outflank and infiltrate.

I do agree with your basic outlook of how tau warfare should be

pookie
13-01-2010, 12:13
Just because the fluff states the prefer shooting to combat doesn't mean they have no notion of close combat existing. If they want to stay at range then it is even more of a reason to have specific devices to let them do so.

Maybe the answer is in more defensive abilities such as if they came with defensive grenades standard or had a squad based flachette launcher upgrade that functioned similarly to the devilfish flachette launcher.
or as stated above, a hit and run type ability were they can easily flee combat and regroup....I dunno.

of course they have a notion of CC, that is to stay OUT of it! to increase there abilitys would be wrong, but to give them more defensive abilitys would seem logical, so no close combat Tau Crisis suits etc simply because they will not be (or should not be) in close combat at anytime.

dtjunkie19
13-01-2010, 15:26
Ugh, I hope not. Most of these ideas are terrible.

Complete nonsense


Quite melodramatic. I disagree, a lot of the ideas presented thus far are, if not balanced, steps in the right direction for a new tau codex.



"Let's make burst cannons with assault cannon profiles". Yeah that's a great idea. We need assault cannon-spam again right?


Better that than the neutered heavy bolter profile that it has now. Also...look at the gun. It IS the equivalent of an assault cannon.



"Let's make em good at CC" Sweet. **** off the guys who like the army for the sake of people who don't play it enough, sales go up for a month, back to normal.


I don't think anyone said to make them "good" at CC. Kroot should be decent, although not a full CC solution. What was said that tau should be able to have a bit more chance of dictating when combat occurs.



"Let's lower EVERYTHING'S COST by massive percentages AND buff everything." Do you guys really see that happening in other codices? This is my biggest biff. A bunch of Nubz complaining about balance they don't understand.


Again, you seem to have a talent for hyperbole. I don't see anyone suggesting lowering costs by "massive percentages" and "buffing everything." It SHOULD be a mixture of both, and every other codex has done both.



What we've seen
Orks went down massively in cost yes, but at the same time they lost:
-initiative
-Heavy rule
-squad specialists (no Tankbusta bombs, no burnas, no krak grenades, nothing)
-0-1 restriction on Ard Boyz


Massively.



Space wolves? They went down to the cost everyone else is at. What did they lose?
-Multiple special weapons OR the ability to have a WG in a transport.
-Multiple special CCWs
-The price of CCWs went up drastically (to modern codex standards)

CSM
-Went up in cost
-lost veteran abilities
-banners instead of marks
-etc..


Both codexes improved on the whole. I haven't heard anyone suggest tau units have to gain new options and rules while keeping all of their old ones. Some will get dropped, changed, points cost increased, etc etc.

Example being disruption pods. If they were kept as is in a new tau codex they should cost probably around 15-20 points.



These are just the troop choices. The point is, none of the suggestions in here are realistic, because Tau aren't that bad. They need some changing, but not straight buffs with no practical nerfs (nerfing the CC ability of the suits doesn't count.) This means you could expect to pay the same for firewarriors with the same stats, but a special rule, maybe a different gun, etc. Heavy 3 30" Don't be ridiculous. Get out of combat-rules? Outlandish. The point of the army, if any army, is finesse. You should be able to avoid combat, like 'dancing' units in an RTS does, not simply avoid it because of lame rules that allow it so any Nub can avoid it.


Firewarriors ARE that bad.

Get out of combat rules are not outlandish...its called hit and run...

I don't see the point of your analogy. 40k is not a realtime game. You can't exploit the limits of the physics engine of a tabletop. No, I'd prefer units to have ways to try to avoid or manage CC. Not an auto get out of combat button by any means, but abilities. That will still not change the fact that a veteran player will know how to avoid and manage CC better than a "nub".



Practical Ideas

A few ideas here such as:
-Dangerous/Difficult terrain affects
-Markerlight modifications (to make them more easily usable)
-Changes to the pulse rifle to help make it less static/better for shooting (maybe 18" assault 2, or a rapid fire with a special rule to make it longer ranged)


-First one was mentioned already.
-Second one was also mentioned.
-Then the pulse carbine would be utterly useless.


What to expect

Maybe making the elite firewarriors of the Ethereal troops etc. These are things we could expect from a 5th ed codex. Let's be real here and not just shout every ludicrous thing that comes to mind.

Unfortunately, without a significant boost or large points drop to firewarriors, that option would not fix any issues at all.


5th ed codices:
-Improve mobility either by allowing outflankers, transports, DSing or similar
-Decrease costs with nerfs to prevent min-maxing and spamming (OR increase costs and radically change/buff the unit. Carnifex and Ogryns make sense here)
-MASSIVE OVERHAULS. (Lootas, Looted tanks, tankbustas, Boyz, all got changed drastically. units were lost, units were created. Look at the nid dex! nothing stayed the same! This is what you can expect)
-Reliance on USRs, both for special rules and for applying these rules to units.
-HQs typically assist the army in some special way (improvements, force org slots, orders, psychic powers that affect friendlies)
-more stuff/options

-Already have multiple outflanking and deep striking units...
-No, that is a flawed line of thinking. A small price cut to firewarriors for example, like 2 points per warrior, would not make them worth taking. That combined with some more drone options to give the squad added value (at a points cost) would not be ridiculous at all.
-New units have been suggested in this thread.
-Yes, which is easily applied via giving kroot stealth and move through cover instead of fieldcraft, for example.
-That is fine. Ethereal should in particular in a way give certain "buffs" to the army.
-Yes...more stuff would be good.


I agree that tau should not get "CC" units. Kroot should function as a temporary solution to CC. Ultimately it will be the strength of firepower that will keep the tau army safe from being overrun in CC. Its a fun wishlisting thread, lets not waste time calling people "nubz".

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 16:20
A bunch of Nubz complaining about balance they don't understand.


Back in your cage, troll.

Everything you list is rather inaccurate. Orks might have lost squad specialists but they replaced that with the ability to take entire squads armed with those specialist weapons. The loss of the heavy rule is meaningless, as you can pretty much buy twice the amount of boys you could before. 0-1 restrictions are all being removed, and who cares about the loss of initiative, their cheap enough that you can get pummeled by a squad of marines and still drag them down through weight of numbers.

Everything the Space Wolves troop units lost is made up for by all the other units that got massive buffs. The ability to split off parts of other units to act as leaders, etc. nullfiies this.

Legion marines went DOWN in cost, and while the mark system changed, it's got a lot better.


Heavy 3 30" Don't be ridiculous. Get out of combat-rules? Outlandish. The point of the army, if any army, is finesse. You should be able to avoid combat, like 'dancing' units in an RTS does, not simply avoid it because of lame rules that allow it so any Nub can avoid it.

Except Tau are NOT the finesse army. That's Eldar. I don't know about you, but if I want to play Eldar, I'll play Eldar (which I do). And you can't dance around combat forever. In fact, it's basically impossible after the last couple codecies. First of all, cc units generally move FASTER than you (yeah, good luck "dancing" units away from assault marines, shrikes, swooping hawks, warp spiders, raptors, gargoyles, harpy's, winged tyrants, scout bikers, regular bikers, eldar jet bikers, thunderwolf cavalry, etc. etc. etc. smart guy). And then you have all these nifty things that can deep strike into close combat range with you. How are you going to avoid that? Especially if they deep strike between your gunline and the table, then you're boned either way, you move forward and you'll probably be moving into assault range of something else, move backwards and you'll just be getting closer to the deepstriking unit.

Oh, and as for 30" heavy 3, theres no reason not to make it happen, noise marines already have something similar.

And before you go calling someone a nub, I've been playing this game for 7 years now, and I STARTED with Tau, so go find another thread to troll.



-Changes to the pulse rifle to help make it less static/better for shooting (maybe 18" assault 2, or a rapid fire with a special rule to make it longer ranged)

So you want pulse rifles to make pulse carbines totally not worth taking, and to be a short/midrange weapon, when Tau are supposed to be the masters of long range?


Decrease costs with nerfs to prevent min-maxing and spamming

Which we can't do anyway due to a lack of special weapon options :rolleyes:


As such tau need to go the complete opposite direction and need to be close up fast movers most dangerous right up next to the enemy to fit with the fluff.

Tau are not born snipers or siege fighters lobbing shells from miles off. They're short ranged precise users of overwhelming firepower in the background.

WRONG!!!!! So wrong!! All the fluff talks about is how they destroy the enemy outside of the enemies maximum engagement range, thats LONG range, not short. What you're talking about is basically turning the Tau into Eldar, which is not what they are supposed to be. Range does not equal siege. In fact, modern sieges are CLOSE RANGE affairs.



Fish of Fury is the best example of a Kauyon or Mont'ka type of combat. The tau don't skulk in the distance taking pot shots, they move in aggressively toward a unit that's either been pulled in as it chased something else or directly rushed at by the devilfish after which point the tau disembark and pour as much punishing close range fire into them as possible to try to ensure their destruction. That is the essence of the tau style of war. Tau should rely more heavily on kroot in an assault role while tau firewarriors and pathfinders should carry more assault style weapons that get more vicious as they get closer.

No, thats eldar. In fact, eldar do the serpent of fury way better than Tau do fish of fury. And need I remind you that a proper fish of fury is now technically impossible due to true line of sight?


What tau need to look like to fit fluff is something more like this:
Pulse Rifle: 24" Assault 1, 12" Assault 2.
Pulse Carbine: 18" Assault 1, 6" Assault 1 blast (They get close enough to utilize their grenade launchers)
Markerlight: 24" Assault 1
Photon Grenade: Defensive grenade, grants initiative 4 when rolling for sweeping advance (it blinds and disorients them as they charge them)
Tau with a shas'ui have Hit and Run.
Seeker Missile: S8 AP1 Unlimited Range.

Aside from the Pulse Rifle and Pulse Carbine (which are both horrible ideas and dont fit the real Tau playstyle at all), I can get behind this.


To: I shoot you, I shoot the absolute hell out of you, I get charged and savaged but I drop photon flashes and escape while you're disoriented and charge you with kroot.

Or we can change it to: I shoot you, I shoot you, oh god you're charging right at me so I shoot you while you draw your sword, there's only one guy left in this entire platoon, ah he killed bob, now I run away and shoot you again.


Tau need to stop being an army that wets its pants every time an enemy gets close to them, you can't storm a building if you can't get close, you can't ambush a squad if your terrified of it getting within 20 meters of you.

Which is fine. Tau aren't supposed to storm anything, they'll destroy a building before they try to assault into it, or they'll just wait and take shots of opportunity at it's occupiers. Likewise they don't ambush anything, neither Kauyon or Mont'ka is an ambush, they are traps. It's luring your opponent into a killbox. That is not an ambush. An ambush occurs only when the enemy is unaware of an enemy troop concentration and is caught off guard... kinda hard to achieve when their already being shot at.


Tau should desire to get up close and engage in close quarters firefights, their weakness in CC needs to be mitigated by kroot while the kroots weakness of armor needs to be mitigated by tau blasting the living crap out of whatever the kroot charge.


While I agree with the second part, I really want to know how you came up with this "get up close and engage in close quarters firefights" thing, because that was NEVER the intention for the army, in game terms or in fluff terms, and this is evident by us having the longest range basic weapon in the game, a total lack of cc-capability (which would be necessary to get up close, since assaults WILL happen) and a lack of a decent armor save/numbers to absorb casualties.


Fieldcraft:"Kroot have affinity for fighting in dense forested terrain and throughout their time with the tau empire, have also become accomplished city fighters. Kroot may be deployed normally or may be held in reserve. When kroot leave reserves they must be deployed in area terrain and within 12" of a friendly tau unit. These kroot do not scatter and may move, charge, and shoot on the turn they arrive."

Definitely don't think it's happening, that would put a unit of kroot on par with a unit of Ymgarl stealers...

IMO, Tau should be the elite long-range maneuver army. NO, maneuver does NOT mean mobility. Maneuver warfare is a concept of warfare that advocates attempting to defeat an adversary by incapacitating their decision-making through shock and disruption brought about by movement. The fluff represents this aspect of Tau pretty well, and really the background just oozes a combination of third/fourth-generation warfare.

Brother Edwin
13-01-2010, 16:52
Tau are a hard army. But not hard enough to take on certain other armys.

Basecly the following units need to be made better:


Etherial.
Gun drones.
Pirrihanas.
Vespid.
Sniper drones.


When these are brought into line the book will be a overall good army.

But hey. Talking bout it does not matter. GW will do whatever they want. I collect them so it dosent bother me if they go and make them stupidly overpowerd.:D

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 17:47
I dont know why everyone says gun drones are underpowered, they have always made their points cost back, in fact I'd say they are the best unit in the book... (although overpriced).

And Piranhas are actually pretty good, if you do the flechette discharger o' doom tactic.

Chaplain Ark
13-01-2010, 17:54
I'm personally a favor of a new heavy support aux. unit similar to the hunters/lekgolo from Halo. I'm thinking monstrous creatures that must be purchased as a unit of 2. Give it a Thundershield equivalent(3++ save but only usable vs. ranged attacks), a high strength low ap weapon that produces small blast templates. High strength, high toughness, multiple wounds, low weapon skill and initiative and attacks (to reduce it's viability as a cc unit), and call it a day.

Tau dont really need another heavy support unit, as they have two of the best ones in the game. unless you mean for a kroot themed army.

What Tau need is a redo on either the fire warriors point cost, or a better gun because right now, SM bolters are more useful.

and they need a better psycher other then the etherial. way to point heavy and to weak and easy to kill.


Wait, you rail against direct buffs as noobish then suggest BS4 fire warriors as the way to go?

and it makes sense, doesnt it? in the fluff, Tau are known for thier prescision and advanced weaponry, yet they have the bs of a lowly guardsman and the equivalent of a bolter with a slightly longer range. and increase in BS and a better weapon with a possible points increase or at least a one-or-the-other increase in bs/weapon in needed to make fire warriors are more reliably choice. we need another army to see in tournaments besides IG gunlines and SM. (they are to only two i've ever seen go far in tournaments recently)

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 18:06
You're right, they don't need another heavy support unit, but it's always good to have options. Alternatively make them an elites choice (since that section is virtually nonexistent).

And Tau shouldnt have a psyker period. As I said before (or in another thread?) the ethereal should buff friendly/debuff enemy within a certain range (think: aura's/pheremones/latent mind control or whatever) but no actual psychic powers.

Chaplain Ark
13-01-2010, 18:13
You're right, they don't need another heavy support unit, but it's always good to have options. Alternatively make them an elites choice (since that section is virtually nonexistent).

And Tau shouldnt have a psyker period. As I said before (or in another thread?) the ethereal should buff friendly/debuff enemy within a certain range (think: aura's/pheremones/latent mind control or whatever) but no actual psychic powers.

im not saying give them a dedicated psyker with powers, but at least give them a defense against it. but you have a good point about the elites, as the most elites ive seen taken are a squad of stealth suits and possibly a single battlesuit (actually thinking back, that may have been my opponents commander :D )

and while im thinking about it, as it has been a while since i played Tau, do they have any good fast attack choices?

Lyinar
13-01-2010, 18:20
Pathfinders aren't ideal, but they do what they do okay. Piranhas can be pretty nasty, too.

Just looking at the choices available in the FOC, the Tau have so few options in the parts of the army list that should be pretty hotly contested. HQs and Elites (and even Troops) should cause you to make hard choices between awesome units.

Tau don't have that. Fast Attack has a couple of okay choices, and Heavy Support has a decent number of choices, even though most folk dismiss several of them out of hand.

I mean, I've actually had success using Sniper Drones... far more than I have with my Hammerhead, actually, but that's just my dice... the same ones that out of four games still hadn't hit with a SINGLE Seeker Missile... The same ones that failed three consecutive checks (terrain check, 2+ armour save, 4+ FNP) in order to wound my Commander from a Difficult Terrain jump.

borithan
13-01-2010, 18:43
You're right, they don't need another heavy support unit, but it's always good to have options. Alternatively make them an elites choice (since that section is virtually nonexistent).Elites have one of the most iconic units of the army, the Crisis suit. They are fairly flexible gear selection wise and so give quite a bit of flexibility in the elites section. I don't tnhink they really need any more in elites (stealth suits and crisis suits should be the elites choices). Now, they may not be worth much in your mind (I haven't played enough to judge), but then the problem is with the suits, which should then be made worth taking, rather than the fact they don't have elites choices. All Tau armies should really have suits. They are meant to be the support unit for the Tau infantry (Fire Warriors don't have special weapons, as the suits provide special weapons support).

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 18:47
yeah, I have that kind of luck too...

But I would like to see one auxillary option per FOC slot (except HQ), and no repeats (no kroot or vespids appearing outside of their existing FOC slots.

borithan - given the way the tyranid codex went, I wouldnt be surprised if we see crisis suits become a troop choice too...

and while you are correct about the role of suits, as players/customers we should be given the right to load out our armies as we see fit. If I want to play a suitless force, I should have the capability to do that without hurting my armies viability, and that has been the trend of the past few codex releases.

Bloodknight
13-01-2010, 19:00
Oh, and as for 30" heavy 3, theres no reason not to make it happen, noise marines already have something similar.

If similar means -1S and -6" then yes. A Noise Marine also costs 25 points and isn't good. How often do you see people fielding NMs with sonic weapons if it's not a strongly themed army? (hint: not often because the gun is pretty expensive. Most people buy NMs with bolt pistols - and a Champion with a Doom Siren - to hit people over the head at I5, if they buy them at all and don't choose Berzerkers anyway).

What you seem to want is a 20% price drop together with +200% of the firepower. Doesn't compute, really.

Just imagine how fun it would be to run up against those two 96 point units that throw 60 S5 shots at you...and people complained about the LR Punisher that's almost got half of that firepower at a shorter range at a higher cost and isn't Troops ;)

dtjunkie19
13-01-2010, 19:04
I think 30" heavy 2 or 18" assault 1 would be more appropriate for the pulse rifle.

Or something like that. I don't know

Rydmend
13-01-2010, 19:16
Elites have one of the most iconic units of the army, the Crisis suit. They are fairly flexible gear selection wise and so give quite a bit of flexibility in the elites section. I don't tnhink they really need any more in elites (stealth suits and crisis suits should be the elites choices). Now, they may not be worth much in your mind (I haven't played enough to judge), but then the problem is with the suits, which should then be made worth taking, rather than the fact they don't have elites choices. All Tau armies should really have suits. They are meant to be the support unit for the Tau infantry (Fire Warriors don't have special weapons, as the suits provide special weapons support).

I don't think you can count on the elites selection staying so small. Look at all the new books coming out and you can see the elites selections have gotten pretty crowded with useful units. For example the new nid dex has hive guard, zoanthropes, lictors, venomthropes, pyrovores and 2 special characters...... all except for the pyrovore are pretty useful.

Raxmei
13-01-2010, 19:19
I have no objection to changing to BS4 for reasons I have explained elsewhere, though such a change obviously can not be made in a vacuum. This change increases fire warrior firepower by 33%, a less severe change than others I've seen that would triple or quadruple their firepower. Yes, giving everyone a big shoota for free would increase their firepower but it wouldn't necessarily make the army better designed.

In keeping with the principle of moderate mobility I have advocated changing the pulse rifle and carbine to assault 1 and 2, respectively. This would allow fire warriors to move at a walking pace while firing, in keeping with the idea of moderate mobility. Most Tau units have an ability to move at least a little without losing firepower, convenient if not terribly fast. This doesn't increase pulse rifle firepower, and does in fact decrease it within 12", but reduces the temptation to put fire warriors in the usurvivable 12" range or to use them in a static role.

The troops have poor diversity of role - they're good at shooting infantry and very light vehicles. Fire Warriors have little use against armor. This is a tough issue to fix without breaking what is in my opinion one of the fundamental aspects of the Tau army. Most armies handle this problem with upgrade weapons, but the Tau don't do that, and in any case such a change can not be accomodated by existing models. The least silly but still nuts idea I've come up with so far is to introduce underslung EMP grenade launchers, say S5 Ap- 18" Heavy 1, special rule when shooting at vehicles will always glance on a 5 and penetrate on a 6. Still needs work.

HQ has little to show that it is in fact leading the army. Lately it's been fashionable for HQ units to provide bonuses to friendly units within a certain radius. Try something like that.

Burst cannons have curiously poor stats. Vehicles are running around with the equivalent of three pulse carbines taped together, and this is considered a main weapon.

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 19:28
If similar means -1S and -6" then yes. A Noise Marine also costs 25 points and isn't good. How often do you see people fielding NMs with sonic weapons if it's not a strongly themed army? (hint: not often because the gun is pretty expensive. Most people buy NMs with bolt pistols - and a Champion with a Doom Siren - to hit people over the head at I5, if they buy them at all and don't choose Berzerkers anyway).

What you seem to want is a 20% price drop together with +200% of the firepower. Doesn't compute, really.

Just imagine how fun it would be to run up against those two 96 point units that throw 60 S5 shots at you...and people complained about the LR Punisher that's almost got half of that firepower at a shorter range at a higher cost and isn't Troops ;)

No, if I got heavy 2/3 pulse rifles, I'd be fine with the cost staying the same or maybe a slight increase, but using your noise marine example (against you), they also have a 3+ armor save, better weapon skill, strength, ballistic skill, toughness, leadership, and initiative. They also have the ability to buy a character that increases their deadliness in cc, and a much cheaper transport option, etc. Using noise marines as an example of the cost of having awesome firewarriors is like comparing apples to oranges, they are nowhere even similar to one another in terms of capability, noise marines are far better. If anything, it just goes to show how weak a firewarrior is.

Although I'm not going to deny that you made a good argument regarding the leman russ punisher, it is a good point that I hadn't considered, buuuutttt... at the same time that Leman Russ is a lot harder to kill than a squad of firewarriors.

twistinthunder
13-01-2010, 19:38
the only things tau need are:

better BS
better looking battlesuits.

i played tau and yes that is all they need.

dtjunkie19
13-01-2010, 19:42
the only things tau need are:

better BS
better looking battlesuits.

i played tau and yes that is all they need.

well that is a very very oversimplified list which I disagree with.

I like the way battlesuits look now (but would be fine with new models)
And, unless you upped all tau units BS by 2 for free (which would be insanely boring), no that would not fix things. In fack it would make things like markerlights less useful.

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 19:51
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think upping hte BS of Tau would just make markerlights redundant. I kind of like the markerlight mechanic right now, granted it needs some tweaking, but I'd say thats the best way to boost our BS.

One thing that just occured to me, is that pathfinders should be able to split their fire. You rarely need that many markerlight hits on one unit, andit really does reduce the markerlights use by limiting it like that.

MATIJA155
13-01-2010, 20:03
Tau truly need something to stop new armies,except necrons who could they kill,no one.They need cc units.

Negafex
13-01-2010, 20:19
BS 4 on battlesuits, broadsides, and stealthsuits. having played tau since their 3rd ed codex, it has always bothered me that their elite warriors with advanced targetting sensors and some of the best technology in the galaxy shoot about as well as a stock guardsmen or a gaunt.

give fire warrior squads some kind of floating weapon platform similar to eldar, possibly in drone form. maybe rail rifles or missle pods on drones, up to 2 per squad, 3 for a full squad. they would also not take up additional room in a devilfish (as the drones could hang from the walls of the transport area or something).

one last thing, switch battlesuits strength bonus to toughness. it makes no sense that since they wear thick armor and plates of sheilded mecha, that they get bonuses to their melee attacks rather than their ability to weather shots.

pvpbob
13-01-2010, 20:40
Tau do need plenty of work for them to become a solid army again. I personally would love to see them be the most mobile shooting army. Not the fastest (eldar) or even the one that can bring the most dakka (IG) but they should be able to move shoot and move again to get concentrated fire where they want it. Give them some super precise deep striking and reserve rolls so they can come in when/where they are needed most.

BUT to keep the thread form general wishlisting and to get back to how to improve the CC aspect of the Tau Empire I think a good tar pit unit would be perfect. Something along the lines of scarab swarms but make them tiny drones. Have them be fast and cheep with the option for an EMP grenade upgrade or possibly a self destruct feature.

I think the idea of the fletcher drone and a couple other ideas that have bounced around here would work well also.

Lyinar
13-01-2010, 20:45
Negafex: Or the drones could hang from the ceiling of the compartment. I mean, if a huge Eldar support weapon doesn't take up a transport slot in a Wave Serpent, how can a Tau drone take one up?

I'd like to see some "sacrifice" drones... Mount them with Flechette Launchers and explosives, and give the Shas'ui the ability to have his squad flee (leaving the drone(s) behind, of course), and after they've made their move, but before the enemy make their pursuit check, blow the drones up to give a low-S, medium-AP small blast that they have to take a leadership check to pursue if they take any casualties from it (or just lower their pursuit range...). I could see having one of those as one of the drone choices attached to a squad as being useful. Of course, if the Shas'ui bites it before they get into combat, the Flechette Suicide Drones wouldn't be able to sacrifice themselves. They'd still be able to spew needles into the enemies' faces, though.

I think that would be pretty balanced just by the low strength, lack of guarantee of working, and one-time-use nature of the sacrificial blast. Probably also make sure the wording of the rule is that the suicide blasts all happen at once (i.e., a squad with more than one suicide drone would have to blow them all up at once, due to the fact that they're, well, running for their gorram lives without the chance to selectively pick just one drone to act).

But yeah, having a higher toughness on the battlesuits, especially the XV8-based ones, would be useful.

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 20:46
Pvpbob, you basically said what I did, they should become the elite rifleman maneuver force.

Tarpit units are not the way to go though, they don't fit into the Tau philosophy, and GW has been very careful to avoid adding those to the army (hence Kroot not being very tough, vespids being expensive, suit teams and drone units being small)

Agreed on higher suit toughness.

Cerraand
13-01-2010, 20:58
Tell that to the army guys who guide Missile with Infared Marker Lights. Those green lights form transformers 1 is a reality.

If I understand correctly, an hand held device should never be heavy?
I disagree with that.
The designator must aim at the target long enough for the missile/other team to fire to work. In my opinion, doing so while running should be quite difficult.
If you think I'm wrong at least explain why... a movie reference doesn't explain much


I agree with the fact pathfinders needs do be modified somehow.
Heavy flamer should be accessible to crisis suits (as special issue).
The devilfish should cost less and add perhaps some fire points.
The veterancy really needs to be reworked completely: how can a guy who spends his life avoiding combat become better at it :confused:

mattschuur
13-01-2010, 21:07
Some of the ideas presented i've seen "are" pretty ridiculous, but I won't comment on them.

That isn't to say Tau aren't underpowered, they are. What I think is necessary:

Fire Warriors- Photon grenades standard and Sgt. (cant remember exact name) with marker light and Bs 4. Same points.

Crisis Suits- +1 BS, rework the weapons, stay 25 points.

I think it goes without saying that Crisis suits should be BS 4. With a fire warrior it still comes down to a grunt shooting over a sight with maybe simple targeting optics in his helmet, but a suit should have far more sophisticated targeting systems. They should come standard with Burst cannon and flamer, free basically. However, in my opinion they should have 2 Weapon hard points and 1 support point. The Shas'vre would have a second support point. Twin linking would go away but BS 4 makes up for that. Crisis weapon points- Burst Cannon- Free, Fusion 5, Missile pod 10, Plasma rifle 15, Airburst 20, Cycilic 15. All weapons stay the same profile.

support systems are okay

Kroot- 6 pts, 6+ armor save, I 4, infiltrate, Field craft= ignore cover. 2 Attacks base.

Krootox- 25 pts, Kroot gun made 24", S 7 Ap 4 Assault 2.

Kroot hounds- 5pts, same otherwise.

Shaper- Reduce to 2 wounds, 10 point upgrade, allow eviserators and power weapons.

Devilfish- Slightly cheaper (70 ish) and the only real negative is to increase points of Disruption pod.

Vespid- 12 pts, 4+ armor, Neuron blaster made 18" S 4 Ap 3 assault 2.

Skyray- Take away the need for marker light to fire. Missiles are unlimited range, no LOS needed, hit on 2+. S 8 Ap 3. May fire 2 a turn.

Ethereal- 18" fearless bubble, make honor blades power weapons that always wound on 4's. If Ethereal die, all Tau on table gain preferred enemy and stubborn no more ld test. also, give them a 4+ invulnerable save.

marker lights- They should work like this. Fire warrior sgt (for example) and squad are going to shoot at an ork boy unit. Sgt aims marker light, If he hits (on a 3+) the whole squad (Including sgt.) may fire at the designated target and may either re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound, ignore cover or cause pinning. The sgt can take 2 marker drones which if all hit, would allow unit to shoot with re-rolling hit and to wound and ignoring cover, for example. marker lights will no longer be allowed to "build" up on a particular unit and instead will only be used in support of unit they are a part of maximising every squads capabilities instead of designating some squads to only marker light duty.

Crisis teams, Broadsides, stealth teams, Fire warriors and pathfinders may have Marker light drones, obviously in addition to the sniper drone teams. marker lights do not count as firing a weapon.

The change i propose to marker lights and the option to have marker drones in other squads is why i don't think fire warriors need a points decrease or BS 4. Marker drones made 25 points each.

Pathfinders- Sgt has Marker light and nobody else, scout, move through cover, and special rule- Spotters- If the unit doesn't move or shoot, they may call in an artillery strike/planetary bombardment/air support to attack a unit. They may target an enemy unit within 24". Place a large blast anywhere within 24" using normal targeting rules and roll to scatter. You may not deduct the pathfinders BS from the scatter. Resolve template at S8 Ap 2.


Those are my ideas.

matt Schuur

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 21:22
Some of the ideas above aren't bad. One thing I would say is that the skyray should fire the missiles at its bs, with the 2+ to hit only if the target is designated via markerlight(in which case it can fire any of its missiles at that target at bs5).

Your pathfinder rule kinda invalidates the unit though, not a fan of that at all, also the orbital strike/whatnot isn't very fitting with the army. That kind of heavy indiscriminate firepower is more of an Imperial thing.

Personally, i'd say the biggest issue I have with your wishlist is that it totally lacks any form of codex creep. It's completely balanced, which makes me sad because that means no shiny new toys or ridiculous OTT abilities like all the other latest releases got.

dtjunkie19
13-01-2010, 21:27
@Mattschurr
I do not agree with your firewarrior idea at all. Are you saying to keep firewarriors as they are + photon grenades and give the shas'ui a marker light and bs 4? They would still be a very very underwhelming choice.

Firewarriors are very very out of place and weak currently. They need a major revision, not a "throw some nades on it and call it a day".

edit: I also agree with Chaos on the markerlight-pathfinder thing.

Lyinar
13-01-2010, 21:41
I've an idea:

The Pulse Carbine actually gets to use its grenade launcher.

18" S5AP5 Assault 1 or 2 for normal shooting. Or, you could fire the grenade launcher. Default is a pinning blast, maybe testing against leadership and not wounding instead of just the current "if it causes a wound, they take a pinning test" to match the Photon Grenade's descriptions. Add explosive grenades for, say, 5 points per model with a carbine. That will give the standard Frag/Krak effects. Then you can get crazy from there with different grenade types.

Need to ignore cover? Take a miniaturized airburst frag round. Small Blast, reasonable S and AP, and ignores cover.

Throw in a few other grenade types, possibly even smoke grenades to create/improve cover saves, possibly limit the number of pulse carbines per unit in response to their increased awesomeness, and you'd have something rather more useful than the "get within theoretical charge range of most of the things you need to pin, hit on ONE BS3 shot, wound pretty easily, pray they don't make their save, then pray they don't make their probably pretty high leadership check" method that goes on now.

chaos0xomega
13-01-2010, 22:08
Lyinar, it would be easier to just make the carbine assault 2 pinning, ignore the genade thrower as a seperate shot and just count it as part of the squads normal firing, although the alternative grenade types are a good idea that should defnitely be considered

MystheDevourer
13-01-2010, 22:34
Elites have one of the most iconic units of the army, the Crisis suit. They are fairly flexible gear selection wise and so give quite a bit of flexibility in the elites section. I don't tnhink they really need any more in elites (stealth suits and crisis suits should be the elites choices). Now, they may not be worth much in your mind (I haven't played enough to judge), but then the problem is with the suits, which should then be made worth taking, rather than the fact they don't have elites choices. All Tau armies should really have suits. They are meant to be the support unit for the Tau infantry (Fire Warriors don't have special weapons, as the suits provide special weapons support).

Agreed. Though they should be able to take Vetren Fire warriors as Troop choices.

MystheDevourer
13-01-2010, 22:49
If I understand correctly, an hand held device should never be heavy?
I disagree with that.
The designator must aim at the target long enough for the missile/other team to fire to work. In my opinion, doing so while running should be quite difficult.
If you think I'm wrong at least explain why... a movie reference doesn't explain much


So you are telling me a self moving drone that hovers moves and does NOTHING else but shine a decently powered and focused laser light should be considered heavy?

Maybe I am missing something but the refrence I was making was during the begining of the movie when they were fighting the Scorpion bot and they used the green "markerlights" for the AC-130 to shoot at the bot. Now obviously tau are advanced and smart so why can they not attach oh said marker light to their guns? I mean if the US Army (yes I will bash them I am Active US Navy) can think orf something that compilcated :rolleyes: then why can the tau not?

Think on that and get back to me. Also go google a marker light dron and see what it actually looks like on the drone.

SabrX
13-01-2010, 22:58
Me thinks Tau needs a unit strong in CC that can cover their assault weakness. Knarloc with Monstrous creature stats would just be dandy.

IMO, they can keep their crappy BS, but at least make marker lights more available. I think the perfect platform for a target lock marker light would be a Devilfish. Fire a seeker missile or improve a friendly unit's BS. At least they'll have more versatility other then anti-infantry and transport.

Finally Crisis Suits and Broadsides needs an increase in toughness.

Gaius
13-01-2010, 23:08
So you are telling me a self moving drone that hovers moves and does NOTHING else but shine a decently powered and focused laser light should be considered heavy?


In the Warhammer 40k rules the Heavy category encompasses both massive weapons that are just too big to be shot on the move and light weapons that require time and precision to operate (the sniper rifle is a good example). From the point of view of the background, a markerlight is considered a Heavy weapon because it is not sufficient to just "put the dot" on the target for a second, but you must keep on painting the target until the supported unit strikes. In addition, remember that Assault weapons (I am mentioning Assault weapons because it has been proposed to switch Markerlights to that category) are described as being so indiscriminate that taking aim is not really needed, and so you can happily blast away with them while on the move; try to consitently direct a laser beam to a precise spot more than 5 meters away while running around ;)
As a closing note I would like to add that real-life comparisons make little sense. A million and one reasons could be written that deny (or allow) a Markerlight to be fired when moving, just by fluff alone. WH40K is overflowing with technology, tactics, psychology and general statements that make absolutely no sense in a realistic concept, so justifying a rules change in such a manner doesn't really hold any weight.

Lyinar
13-01-2010, 23:21
I say that drone-mounted markerlights SHOULD be Assault, due to the built-in stabilisation systems on the things.

chaos0xomega
14-01-2010, 01:59
In the Warhammer 40k rules the Heavy category encompasses both massive weapons that are just too big to be shot on the move and light weapons that require time and precision to operate (the sniper rifle is a good example). From the point of view of the background, a markerlight is considered a Heavy weapon because it is not sufficient to just "put the dot" on the target for a second, but you must keep on painting the target until the supported unit strikes. In addition, remember that Assault weapons (I am mentioning Assault weapons because it has been proposed to switch Markerlights to that category) are described as being so indiscriminate that taking aim is not really needed, and so you can happily blast away with them while on the move; try to consitently direct a laser beam to a precise spot more than 5 meters away while running around ;)
As a closing note I would like to add that real-life comparisons make little sense. A million and one reasons could be written that deny (or allow) a Markerlight to be fired when moving, just by fluff alone. WH40K is overflowing with technology, tactics, psychology and general statements that make absolutely no sense in a realistic concept, so justifying a rules change in such a manner doesn't really hold any weight.

Actually, you CAN just put the dot on a target. As long as the missile has enough time to detect the IR beam and detect it's endpoint it can determine direction and rough position of the target. Granted, it's not as accurate as painting a target, but it's perfectly doable with our 21st century human tech.

Lyinar, they already are assault (aren't they? I mean, they have "heavy" in the profile, but because they are jet infantry they can move and fire?)

Creeping Dementia
14-01-2010, 02:16
Lyinar, they already are assault (aren't they? I mean, they have "heavy" in the profile, but because they are jet infantry they can move and fire?)

No they aren't assault, technically. Shield and Markerdrones aren't jet infanty, they're 'as owner'. So Markerdrones attached to Suit units are relentless (so markers are used like assault), but Markerdrones attached to Pathfinders/Firewarriors are not Relentless, and are generic heavy weapons.

That being said, it doesn't really matter. Markerdrones are too expensive for what they do to ever take anyway (even with stealth suits).

Chaplain Ark
14-01-2010, 02:56
In the Warhammer 40k rules the Heavy category encompasses both massive weapons that are just too big to be shot on the move and light weapons that require time and precision to operate (the sniper rifle is a good example).

Yet Codex:Space Marines and Codex:Eldar have sniper rifles as troops and Codex:Black Templars allows the Initiates to have Heavy weapons. And if a floatind drone with a gun on it needs to be HEavy, then why does the floating Land Speeders allowed to have certain heavy weponry and are fast attack? Or dreadnoughts elites?

the Heavy catagory is for vehicles (for the most part) and heavy weapon teams. Sniper drones and other drones dont necessarily have to be heavy. if anything id make em a troops choice to add more options cause right now, whos gonna take a sniper drone team over two of the best heavy support units( the braodside and hammerhead) in all of 40k?

Creeping Dementia
14-01-2010, 03:25
Yet Codex:Space Marines and Codex:Eldar have sniper rifles as troops and Codex:Black Templars allows the Initiates to have Heavy weapons. And if a floatind drone with a gun on it needs to be HEavy, then why does the floating Land Speeders allowed to have certain heavy weponry and are fast attack? Or dreadnoughts elites?

the Heavy catagory is for vehicles (for the most part) and heavy weapon teams. Sniper drones and other drones dont necessarily have to be heavy. if anything id make em a troops choice to add more options cause right now, whos gonna take a sniper drone team over two of the best heavy support units( the braodside and hammerhead) in all of 40k?

I'm pretty sure everyone is talking about 'heavy' weapons, not Heavy Support units. The argument isn't about only having 'heavy' weapons in the Heavy slots, its about why Markerlights are currently 'Heavy' weapons.

chaos0xomega
14-01-2010, 03:44
I can understand the fluff reasons for markerlights being heavy, but for balance purposes I think they should be assault. The 4th edition Tau codex is very reliant on markerlights to make your units worth a damn, but pathfinders are basically sitting ducks.

CushionRide
14-01-2010, 05:38
answering thread ??

a new codex ^_^

Cerraand
14-01-2010, 14:02
In the Warhammer 40k rules the Heavy category encompasses both massive weapons that are just too big to be shot on the move and light weapons that require time and precision to operate (the sniper rifle is a good example). From the point of view of the background, a markerlight is considered a Heavy weapon because it is not sufficient to just "put the dot" on the target for a second, but you must keep on painting the target until the supported unit strikes. In addition, remember that Assault weapons (I am mentioning Assault weapons because it has been proposed to switch Markerlights to that category) are described as being so indiscriminate that taking aim is not really needed, and so you can happily blast away with them while on the move; try to consitently direct a laser beam to a precise spot more than 5 meters away while running around ;)
As a closing note I would like to add that real-life comparisons make little sense. A million and one reasons could be written that deny (or allow) a Markerlight to be fired when moving, just by fluff alone. WH40K is overflowing with technology, tactics, psychology and general statements that make absolutely no sense in a realistic concept, so justifying a rules change in such a manner doesn't really hold any weight.

I totally agree with you.

@ CushionRide

Yeah, but what should be in it?

Lord Solar Plexus
14-01-2010, 15:27
AP 2 railguns, less suits, less weapons on those suits. Nothing personal against Tau but perhaps then everyone would stop complaining about the Nid 'dex... :rolleyes:

chaos0xomega
14-01-2010, 15:59
Errr... what?

Lyinar
14-01-2010, 16:04
I do believe he's trying to say that if the Tau get the crap nerfed out of the stuff that define their army, people will stop whining and wailing and gnashing their teeth about how the Tyranids got nerfed.

Not that useful of a post, because people would still moan about how their Tyranids suck now, while ALSO moaning about how the Tau suck.

chaos0xomega
14-01-2010, 16:19
Ah, I see now, I took it to mean that by nerfing tau people wouldnt whine so much about nids being overpowered (which they aren't, nor are they underpowered. They didnt have as much codex creep as some other armies, but they are by no means weak...)

Creeping Dementia
14-01-2010, 16:25
For the love of all that is good and holy on this big blue earth... how did the Nid complainers get into this thread too??? Seriously??? Five threads aren't enough???

Chaplain Ark
14-01-2010, 16:55
I'm pretty sure everyone is talking about 'heavy' weapons, not Heavy Support units. The argument isn't about only having 'heavy' weapons in the Heavy slots, its about why Markerlights are currently 'Heavy' weapons.

oh.

well now i just look like a fool. :D

Tau-Lover
14-01-2010, 19:20
I would like to see some more options. All my lists look the same, so itsn't fun to make lists :(

The idea of having different kinds of drones is really good.

I don't think fire warrios should be better in CC, but if they got some special rules, it would make up for it. My idea is to give them a kind of fall back special rule. When an enemy assaults them, they may take an Initiative test or LD test, and if they make it, they may make a 2D6 fall back move.

Give kroot and upgrade option that represents that they can steal DNA from enemies and animals. So for x point you by differnt upogrades for them.

Somehow that Skyray needs to be improved.

We need better BS. I don't know most units just should get increased BS, or if markerlights could be made more effective.

And I would like to see some new tech, some really nasty stuff :evilgrin:

TheOneWithNoName
14-01-2010, 20:25
Tau need players who will believe in themselves, the Ethereals, and the Greater Good. My last Tau opponent raged his game, vowing never to play the Tau until their codex was updated.

Raxmei
14-01-2010, 20:25
Some races handle assault be trying to win, others do it by trying to lose in an advantageous way. The classic example is IG. A common tactic is to let an infantry squad get obliterated in assault so that the enemy units are left exposed to shooting in the next turn. Of course the Tau do things slightly differently than the Guard. Ideally there should be some way of ending the engagement without losing the squad.

An approach that uses existing rules is to use defensive grenades and hit and run. They'd probably need some sort of bonus to their initiative tests to make this work with any reliability.

A new special rules approach is to let them flee in response to getting charged.

MystheDevourer
14-01-2010, 20:37
I don't think you can count on the elites selection staying so small. Look at all the new books coming out and you can see the elites selections have gotten pretty crowded with useful units. For example the new nid dex has hive guard, zoanthropes, lictors, venomthropes, pyrovores and 2 special characters...... all except for the pyrovore are pretty useful.

heh heh. . honestly all of those have their own little niche that they fill. Battlesuits can fill ALL niches pretty well. its all on the upgrades.

MystheDevourer
14-01-2010, 20:46
In the Warhammer 40k rules the Heavy category encompasses both massive weapons that are just too big to be shot on the move and light weapons that require time and precision to operate (the sniper rifle is a good example). From the point of view of the background, a markerlight is considered a Heavy weapon because it is not sufficient to just "put the dot" on the target for a second, but you must keep on painting the target until the supported unit strikes. In addition, remember that Assault weapons (I am mentioning Assault weapons because it has been proposed to switch Markerlights to that category) are described as being so indiscriminate that taking aim is not really needed, and so you can happily blast away with them while on the move; try to consitently direct a laser beam to a precise spot more than 5 meters away while running around ;)
As a closing note I would like to add that real-life comparisons make little sense. A million and one reasons could be written that deny (or allow) a Markerlight to be fired when moving, just by fluff alone. WH40K is overflowing with technology, tactics, psychology and general statements that make absolutely no sense in a realistic concept, so justifying a rules change in such a manner doesn't really hold any weight.Well you have to consider how bug your target is and etc. You dont have to have said "dot" in the middle of tier heads to make it work, no it has to be on their body somewhere, a long as its there, hell it does not even have to be on them to paint a target for a missile. So as you aptly mention Assault weapons a Marker light would fit into that category pretty well. hell it does not even need to be an assault or a heavy to work. Just clip said light to gun and point. Case and point done.

xerxeshavelock
14-01-2010, 21:07
Well you have to consider how bug your target is and etc.

New 'nids been on your mind recently? :)

Chaplain Ark
14-01-2010, 21:07
yeah, even now, you just gotta point the laser at it once,and the plane/tank/battleship knows where it is and can hit it. Plus the markerlight is a drone, so it should be immune to gunfire flying past it and everything.

MystheDevourer
14-01-2010, 21:12
New 'nids been on your mind recently? :)

Actually yes. Since they are my main army but i sill love the Gundam look of the tau.

As for the Drones being immune to fire, no not really but they should have a higher armor save because they would be kinda hard to hit with a single shot weapon you know.

Nakor
15-01-2010, 01:00
we seem to be getting confused. ther is alot of missile analogys with the lasers, but what were often talking about are pulse weapons heald by organics on the ground. last i checked firewarriors didnt shoot missiles from their weapons, so all this heavy/assault agument seems to be a bit off you know? missile guidance is great but what do marker lights actually do fro the infantry? if its understood how they help (i dont know, if some one does please enlighten me) then we can translate that into a nicer game mechanic. i feel that the heavy thing is rubbish, my current conception of the markerlight is just one unit pointing out an enemy position to another unit. all that takes is a second or two with radio communications - just contact the unit your designating for give them a heads up, give it a quick laser blast then BAM they know what they are looking at. you dont even have to hit a body at all, juts the local area. and vs infanty with missiles or other blasts its the same thing, dont have to hit dead on for it to work.

Tangent:
the trasnformers analogy made me laugh a little bit. i havent seen the movie in ages but i do rememebr the whole squad pretty much running into the middle of the street and THEN they whipped out the designator. fully could have just poked an eye and a hand around the corner for some stealthy ninja action instead of getting the half the squad wasted.

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 01:07
They need firewarriors that don't suck, which is achieved by lowering their points cost, adding drones to the squad that act as heavy/special weapon troopers, and transports that cost as much as wave serpents, yet are nowhere near as good or useful.
Kroot wants options - options they had in the old Kroot mercenaries list, like fleet, stat-increases, other wargear, and options for their shapers.

Since this is tau, we can look forward to all the current 'experimental' bling being made standard-issue and slightly improved, as well as getting a whole slew of new 'experimental' bling, that's of just as much questionable use as the current set.

Just imagine! Twin-linked pulse rifles on battlesuits, that rend, and pin! Or a gets hot strength 2 blast at AP1, that lets you re-roll failed wounds! Hunter-seeker drones, that may or may not inflict an automatic wound on anything on the table, but if you roll disastrously, the hit goes on the model equipped with the drone!
Deathray orbital strikes, that function once per game, past turn three, and then only if you can roll +5! Obviously, all these things are going to suck away a hard-point, but the deathray is so awesome, it costs two!

The possibilties are endless.

Nakor
15-01-2010, 02:39
strength 2? haha typo ther bucko!

Grinder
15-01-2010, 03:49
Me thinks Tau needs a unit strong in CC that can cover their assault weakness. Knarloc with Monstrous creature stats would just be dandy.

Finally Crisis Suits and Broadsides needs an increase in toughness.

Kudos Sabre: I believe these two ideas would do two things. I would be very happy to see Knarloc Riders, plastic re-cut please, added to Codex:TE. Or a great Knarloc added to the codex. This would change the tau meta-game. I would be so stoked to see a Kroot howdah on a greater Knarloc:D

And T5 suits would "re-value" the suits as they should be.

Cheers

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 04:52
Not a typo.

We'd of course get an all-new mechasuit, that a special character turns from elites into troops.
The suit, naturally, has toughness 5.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-01-2010, 07:52
Errr... what?

Please take my apologies, that was a trollish and unfair statement and not meant to be taken at face value. Read it in your most ironical voice or forget all about it. I'm neither a Tau hater nor a Nid complainer but would welcome strong and challenging codices for both (and everybody else as well).

alphastealer
15-01-2010, 08:24
Having played with and against Tau these are my suggestions to make Tau a more competative army.

1) Crisis suits should be allowed to take marker lights.
2) Markerlight 'shots' should be resolved at a minimum of BS4.
3) Crisis suits need a power weapon option and some kind of storm shield equivalent as a special issue.
4) All JSJ units gain hit and run.
5) Skyray fires D6 missiles each turn, with no overall limit - must be activiated by using a markerlight.
6) Kroot should get fleet.
7) Vespid should get rapid fire on their gun.
8) Mini Ion cannon option for broadside suits R72 S6 AP3 Heavy 3- twin linked.
9) New weapon - plasma grenade launcher - R30 S7 AP4 blast. Can be a firewarrior captain upgrade and/or a crisis suit option.
10) 2 point reduction on firewarrior model.
11) 20 point reduction on devilfish
12) 10 point reduction on pirahna
13) new Tau special item: deployment beacons. At the start of each battle the Tau drop D3 small beacons anywhere on the battlefield, before rolling for sides and deployment zones. These beacons cannot be removed by the enemy, (similar to the bird for the space wolves). These beacons act as teleport homers for any deep striking Tau unit. Taken as a part of the positional relay package for a total of 20pts - including the relay.
14) flamer option for stealth suits. Tau commanders may take heavy flamers.

Your thoughts?

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 08:37
Tau infantry do NOT, under any circumstanzes, use support-weaponry. That's what drones are form - and the pathfinders, with ther silly railrifles.

Heavy/special weapon support drones, for all tau infantry.
Let them carry items that grant the unit they're with stealth, feel no pain, scouts, more markerlights, and so on, or forgo these items for weapons, which should be at least battlesuit-equivalent.

Tau never fight up close and personal.
It's in their xeno version of codex astartes. Tau never engages in mle willingly, so no toys for that should be available.
Now, xenos or mercenaries, they not tau, so free to engage in such barbaric actions.

Ion cannon for broadsides would be really good.

Vespid and kroot both at least the option to get fleet, and vespid should rend in mle.

The rest has been said already, or I don't much care for.

RED9335
16-01-2010, 05:55
so, now that we all agree on some changes, does anyone have any clue or whisper of a codex update for this year? Oh and as an off topic aside, The Warstore Rocks

chaos0xomega
16-01-2010, 07:43
Having played with and against Tau these are my suggestions to make Tau a more competative army.

1) Crisis suits should be allowed to take marker lights.
2) Markerlight 'shots' should be resolved at a minimum of BS4.
3) Crisis suits need a power weapon option and some kind of storm shield equivalent as a special issue.
4) All JSJ units gain hit and run.
5) Skyray fires D6 missiles each turn, with no overall limit - must be activiated by using a markerlight.
6) Kroot should get fleet.
7) Vespid should get rapid fire on their gun.
8) Mini Ion cannon option for broadside suits R72 S6 AP3 Heavy 3- twin linked.
9) New weapon - plasma grenade launcher - R30 S7 AP4 blast. Can be a firewarrior captain upgrade and/or a crisis suit option.
10) 2 point reduction on firewarrior model.
11) 20 point reduction on devilfish
12) 10 point reduction on pirahna
13) new Tau special item: deployment beacons. At the start of each battle the Tau drop D3 small beacons anywhere on the battlefield, before rolling for sides and deployment zones. These beacons cannot be removed by the enemy, (similar to the bird for the space wolves). These beacons act as teleport homers for any deep striking Tau unit. Taken as a part of the positional relay package for a total of 20pts - including the relay.
14) flamer option for stealth suits. Tau commanders may take heavy flamers.

Your thoughts?

There are a couple points in there that I agree with but... well

1) is pointless, as they can take marker drones, just reduce the cost of them to make them more attractive. Also, self designating is kinda silly, just give them a bs boost and be done with it in that case.
2) meh, should depend on the firing unit
3) hell no
4) I have a feeling this may happen, as I understand it, GW intends for each new codex to "evolve" as the Tau's technology increases. They want to introduce new special issue gear with each book and make the old special issue stuff more standard.
5) meh, doesn't really matter to me
6) agreed
7) great, nerf 'em some more why dont ya?
8) yeah, thats a common one
9) HELL no, except on crisis suits.
10),11),12) agreed
13) very tau-ish
14) No, no, no no no no no. No. NO. If anything, they should remove the flamers from the codex.


And no, no whisperings.

megatrons2nd
16-01-2010, 15:26
They need an ability to hamper the arrival of any unit that deepstrikes within 18" of a Tau unit. Maybe by adding an extra 1-2D6 for the scatter roll, and/or a reroll of the scatter dice or all the dice if a hit is rolled.


Pathfinders, and possibly Stealth Suit teams should make reserve roles for outflanking units harder. Maybe by making the target number one turn higher on the reserves chart, or even just forcing a reroll of a success.


Make pulse rifles assault 1 and pulse carbines assault 2 with pinning.

Eirich
16-01-2010, 19:07
As someone said in the first pages of this thread, Tau already got some intresting stuff from FW that could easily be included in a new codex. The Tetra would be a great way to get some mobile markerlights into the army and the Xv9 Hazard hold promise of beeing a exellent infantry killer with dual twinlinked Burstcannons, not to mention it's T5, Defensive Grenades and Hit n' Run included in the cost.

I wouldn't mind the BS 3 Fire Warriors if there were more mobile Markerlights for a decent cost. Making the Networked Markerlight a Assault weapon would cover it nicely as the only units who use them are Markerdrones and the Sky Ray. Both the Pulse Rifle and Carbine could use some reworking in order to compensate for the points. Changing the Rifle to Heavy 2, 30" with a Assault 1, 30" option and make the Carbine a Assault 2 weapon would make some sense to me.

The Burstcannon could also use some change, but increasing the amout of shots by one or two would be enough as it's supposed to be a veichle type of the Pulse Carbine (read the description).
As someone mentioned here, or in another thread, I wouldn't mind having the Fusion Blaster turned into a Multi-Melta.

The Xv8 should have BS 4 as standard and T5 instead of S5, reducing it's CC abillity but make it survive more punishment. Same goes for the Xv25, a higher toughness value would make much more sense than more strength.

Many have mentioned a desire for new drones to boost the units. It would be the easiest way to provide Fire Warriors with some intresting options, but i can't see drones that acts as direct CC countermeasue. But wouldn't a drone carrying a stealth field generator be a pretty good way to provide a group with some new tricks?

burning crome
16-01-2010, 22:18
one thing i haven't seen here is that the seeker missile should (IMO) become a large blast weapon but still retain it other rules. Which would make it far more useful and give some more horde killing abilitys to the heavy support section that it lacks at present.

chaos0xomega
16-01-2010, 23:50
No. Seeker missiles should remain as is, but gain a seconday firing mode (I.E. an HE mode) that IS large blast, but say s5 ap4

burning crome
17-01-2010, 02:41
that what i was thinking some like large blast st5 but st8 under hole of template either that or straight up st8 with a price increase for them taken as upgrades with the skyray costing the same.

Baracus
07-02-2010, 04:25
Bring in somesort of warp dude. I mean they try to get everyone ally with them and in the dalmascus crusade alot of imperium dudes were left behind and mabye some with PP allied with them

MetalGecko23
07-02-2010, 04:47
Many have mentioned a desire for new drones to boost the units. It would be the easiest way to provide Fire Warriors with some intresting options, but i can't see drones that acts as direct CC countermeasue. But wouldn't a drone carrying a stealth field generator be a pretty good way to provide a group with some new tricks?
That would be cool a drone that defends fire warriors from cc would be awesome. Like a little bomb guy that blows up on enemy assualt units.
I would like to see the shield drone provide a cover save to whole unit instead of 1 invul save. It would make them more useful to units. Something like a 5+ cover save.

horsa
07-02-2010, 09:36
I find that Tau are usually effective in KP games. The only big issue is if units can get large cover saves and are into the gun line by turn 2. Other problems can arise with units that DS and can assault the same turn. Moral checks are a pain as most Tau are not that great and I have lost a whole BS team to one bad die roll. I find it is hard to knock units like plague marines off of objectives.

I would really like to see better ICs, lower points costs for units, some better blast weapons and some ability to handle cc armies. Just as nids have been given some long range anti-tank ability, I really would like to have some cc ability. One more item would be the ability to deep strike and move in the assault phase.

Something that counters psykers.

fluffstalker
07-02-2010, 12:16
Tau crisis suits need to not die when they get near the enemy. To achieve this, either their weapon range needs to be buffed or their survivability needs to be buffed.

Vespids not sucking would be nice too.

Lord Raneus
07-02-2010, 14:54
I would say Assault 4 is the most I would go. Giving them AP4 is also good as well.

My biggest problem is that for a small race like the Tau, their Fire Warriors (who are their Fire caste and are trained to be ranged fighters) Are justa as good as a Raw recruit of the Imperial Guard in terms of shooting.

I personally think this makes sense; Guardsmen receive pretty intensive training, just like FW's. And Tau are supposed to have naturally bad eyesight or something like that, aren't they? When you combine that with their much shorter lifespan, I think it makes perfect sense that they and Guardsmen have equal BS. Fire Warriors having the same shooting skill as a Space Marine who's been in combat for decades, if not centuries, would be rather silly.


I think we might see a new alien species in the next dex: something that's actually fairly good at CC would be interesting.

Karl
07-02-2010, 15:38
I'd just like some more auxilary alien species which would be the way I would handle any CC improvements for the army but not more kroot, new aliens it's one of the things that really appeals to me about the Tau is the potential to field an army with multiple species in it.

WinglessVT2
07-02-2010, 15:42
It's pretty obvious that we're going to get both new aliens, more gear that sucks, more gear that no one wants, and at least one unit imported from forgeworld.

neko
07-02-2010, 16:21
I'm confused as to why some people seem to think that overwhelming firepower at short range is purely Eldar, and that the Tau shouldn't have any overlap. Yes, the Eldar can run this type of army, but then they also have options for doing hand to hand pretty well, and can combine the two. I'd say that this is a world of difference from the Tau who desperately try to not do CC.

Considering that one of the Tau's main strengths is the short range firefight, I would like to see this extended into the CC phase. A couple of possibilities off of the top of my head:
- Allow firewarriors to replace their first round's cc attacks with rifle shots when charged. This can be at a penalty to BS if necessary.
- Allow Tau to fire into CC under certain circumstances. It may well be that if the unit in CC passes a test of some description, its members are able to disengage from CC just long enough for the enemy infantry to be targeted (cinematically, imagine the firewarrior shoving the opponent away for just long enough for a friendly warrior to shoot him). The enemy unit will still get its CC attacks, but the Tau unit will lose its attack as they were too busy trying to give their friends a clear shot.

On a different note, I would like to see a couple of different seeker missile types. A small anti infantry blast is an obvious option, but I could also see possibilities for a napalm type missile where you get to place the flame templace with the pointy end pointed at the launching vehicle. (Whilst some people might hate these as being blast/templace weapons, I think they would still be fluffy as they would be accurately guided in by the markerlight.)

Tau-Lover
07-02-2010, 16:43
-Gun drones cheaper
-Stealth suit cheaper + BS 4
-Fire warriors get free defensive nades
-Marker drones cheaper
-Battle suits BS 4
-Etheral better
-More drone options
-Weapons get longer range (burst cannon to 24" or 30")
-Devil fish cheaper
-New units, I would like to see some Forge world stuff. Maybe drone sentry turret.
-Skyray need some changes.

WinglessVT2
07-02-2010, 16:55
Tau embody the ability to hit people wherever you want, whenever you want.
If you don't play your tau to be a mobile, punishing rapid-response force, then there's your reason for why you lose almost all your games.

They need to put more emphasis on the tau themselves, rather than adding more 'whacky aliens,' and options no one wants, takes, or even asked for.