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Col. Tartleton
12-01-2010, 18:32
I'm thinking about starting an army book write up (as Cathay, Nippon, and Araby have several of them) and I want to know if there's anything detailed about them so I can incorporate it or am I going in with nothing but "They have Tiger Warriors"

So far key concepts (subject to new info) will be 6 chaos god type marks for the smarta.

"Bram" The Creator, "Vash" The Preserver, "Shaktal" The All Mother, "Saiv" The Destroyer, "Gavira" The Wise and "Hindra" the Victorious. Which will be obvious corruptions of Brahma, Vishnu, Shakti, Shiva, Ganesh, and Indra.

These six will each have a spell available in one lore (The Brahman). They buy their spells with their marks however, so a Brahmin who takes the "mark" of Vash will be able to cast the power associated with that god only. Without a mark a Brahmin has no magic.

Then on the other side you have a Buddhist inspired lore (The Anatta) which is a more traditional system given to the Shramanas (lvl 1-2 mage) Lamas (Lvl 3 mage) and Bodhi (Lvl 4 mage) with six more regular spells concerning more elemental magic (Aether, Air, Fire, Water, and Earth and their unification (sixth spell)) A special character of this line of course must be "The Illustrious One" who has all six spells and is pretty much immune to everything.

I intend for it to be a Greater India army with Khuresh Indochinese (Fighters of Cathay and Nippon), Mournite Himalayans (and their wars against the ogres), and Persians (Their wars against the Chaos Dwarves) as well as traditional Indian Ind.

India is very diverse and so should be Ind. There will a half dozen ethnic groups involved, a list loaded with different types of weapons, "demon" equivalent troops such as monkey men of Saiv, Elephant men of Hindra (led by Erawan The Six Tusked) Garanas (Flying Mount)and Nagi (Serpent Mount)of Vash and all sorts of things.

So anything existing that contradicts any of this or am I set to go forward?

Jind_Singh
12-01-2010, 20:09
so longs as your anti-chaos then no problems
theres a magic item from Ind that the Ogres use - and the skaven and chaos hate it! It mentions that the peoples of Ind are very anti-chaos.
You could also have flying monkeys in much the same way as harpies - adds a fantasy twist.
Mumaks from LOTR would be excellent to use in this case - good scale too.
You could model dwarves with turbans - they would be the elite warriors (based on the formidable Sikh warriors from back in the day)
something to keep in mind - Ind is a collection of empires so you'd want that diversity to somehow manifest in the way the list is built - many of the kingdoms spent more time bashing each other, so you could really go to town with themes.
To keep the army differnt from Empire I'd keep away from black powder.
You could also look at including savage lizardmen who no longer have any Slann to guide them - theres actually savage lizardmen close to Khemri.
differnt tribes could include differnet races too.

Jind_Singh
12-01-2010, 20:09
and Tigers! find a cool way to use Tigers!

Sygerrik
12-01-2010, 20:32
I like this idea. What would be interesting is a reorganization of the choices based on choice of general. You could have a Dharmayuddha character with access to very powerful magic weapons and armor and a high Leadership, who allows you to use chariots and ranked infantry as core, or a Kutayuddha character who allows more warmachines, strange allies, and so on, at the price of lower leadership and less access to powerful magic items. Wizards would mostly be bodhis, so you could have a mix of Buddhist and Hindu-inspired symbolism.

Hindu mythology is ripe with tales of great heroes wielding awesomely powerful weapons, so I think an army of Ind should be a mix of Empire and Chaos in terms of units-- some monsters and some war machines backed up by human infantry, with human characters augmented by tremendously powerful magic items. An Ind lord should be able to take on a Chaos Lord or Vampire Lord in melee and give as good as he gets, with his naturally lower stats compensated for by his choice of items.

Jind_Singh
12-01-2010, 22:10
but you'd have to make sure the army also has a lack of something - combat orientated but not as effective as chaos, diversity of Empire but not so solid - you need to make a distinctive army so it plays well, otherwise it's just an army that takes the cream of other lists!
Likewise the magic - has to stike a balance between being powerful enough to deal damage but not being overpowered.
Oh! We also need snake charmers in there too - thats a must (as are the Tigers and dwarves with turbans!)

Sygerrik
13-01-2010, 02:15
As for weaknesses, I have a few ideas. First of all, characters should be extremely expensive, as should elite units-- and the cheap units should be crap. An army with lots and lots of weaksauce troops and a few really powerful characters and units would be neat. Also, we could exploit the diversity and factionalism-- maybe there's no general at all, and each character is assigned to one unit of "home" troops. Only those troops can get the character's LD bonus, and the leader has to join and stay with his troops. Alternatively, units could be subject to an "impetuous" style rule when not accompanied by a character to represent the tenuous control the central leadership has on troops from outlying regions.

Leogun_91
13-01-2010, 09:52
6 marks of gods work but make sure to mention more, Ind is the land of a thousand gods in fluff so comment on this appropriately.
Tigermen are known to fight with the Ind people as often as against them so a rule representing that they aren't that loyal could represent that (and they could have characters as well, wizards using lore of beasts and strong warriors with simmilar rules to normal tigermen, both characters may only join tiger units).

There is alot of potential here and I wish you good luck, I'll see if I can find some fluff to send you.

Condottiere
13-01-2010, 10:44
You should figure out what aspects of Ind you find attractive, and which cultures and time period(s) you want to import into your army book.

Carkey
13-01-2010, 11:01
I think that you should have a cannon mounted on an elephant's back as a rare choice. It add a little bit of game balance, so that the Ind Armies can do something in the shooting phase, but it has lots of fluff potential. First, you could make it that the elephant causes Terror, but has a lowleadership itself, so that it'll be scared too. This is how elephants generally act in combat. Second, you could make it high points costs and pretend it uses imported cannons from the Empire, like how Indian Armies used to have to import cannons from Europe.

Also, for rule of Cool, make a Giant turtle a mount for the lords/heroes. In Hindu culture, a giant turtle supposedly holds up the world. For obvious reasons, make it a slow but tough mount.

Of course, you could always not. This is just MHO :D

Col. Tartleton
13-01-2010, 16:34
Well here's pretty much my break down on non humans as so far:

My favorite unit idea:

Monkey Warriors, which are staff fighting skirmishers that can scout normally or can fly if joined by "Hanwu" the infamous Monkey King (Hanuman and Sun Wukong Mixed together) The Monkey King gives his monkeys regen from his "Cathayan Peaches of Heaven", his staff has killing blow and it's strength is twice the enemies toughness, a magical dragon skinned mail (like the Dark Elf cloak but with built in heavy armor for a 4+* save)and fiery golden eyes for a magic resistance 1. Pretty much the boss unit. The Monkey King is considered the herald of Saiv.

Elephant Warriors are pretty much ogres with S5 maces and heavy armor and shields. They have impact hits on the charge and are stubborn. Erawan of the Cloud Host makes them immune to psychology, gives them a wardsave against ranged attacks from the clouds of mist his trunks create. His three heads do three times the impact hits making him terrifying on the charge, he also causes fear. (Although Hindra should be the patron of these I'm giving them to Gavira for simplicities sake elephants lumped with elephants.)

Hindra instead gives you his terrifying Thundercats TM. Tiger Warriors are Skirmishers with battle axes, and ignore terrain. They have good stats, cause fear, hate beastmen (MUST EAT COWS RAWRR!!!) they are led by Waroar (Warrior/ Roar :) )Dhuri The Damned who is a powerful fighter who can also cast Hindra's Thunderbolt which is a very powerful magic missile. Shes got good stats and a special rule about her "damnation" called "Thirst of the Jungle" which is that she gains attacks on the turn for wounds she inflicts.

Nagas are dragon mounts lacking flight and having a mist breath attack. One of the special characters Emperor Rama has an optional Naga Mount named Shesa who has 2-12 (2D6) poisoned flaming attacks (and dozens of heads.) but will also swallow up half your list in points :).

The Sacred Bull is a regular horse mount with an impact hit and an extra wound for its bearer.

Garujas are giant eagle mounts with flight and armor piercing against lizard men.

Everything else is human such as Shaktas War Dancers and their leader the Virgin Warrior Kalima and her lethal sickles and blue paint (Think the death goddess Kali)

So anyhow, thats 3 demonic/magical beast units and three magical mounts which I feel is reasonable for a human army.

Ender Shadowkin
13-01-2010, 23:25
Hey, I'm doing the same thing . . .I'm making mine a proxy chaos warrior list (so it will be fully playable) and my background will be a bit different than yours. Mine is based around a warrior priest culture, and some strong belief that the world must be in ballance between order and Chaos.

I've already converted some old ogres with the White lion heads (Rakshasa), started sculpting elephants (proxy chaos chariots), working on a war alter (using Kali fetish), and mostly done with a ganesh type creature (converted from Ogre parts, sculpting elephant head . . . will be either a Shogoth or Daemon Prince)

Other Units in my list inlcude:

snake/Nagi cult warriors (Chaos warriror rules, Dark Elf Black Guard with Snake helm conversions

Sisters of Kali = Priestes Cult (Chaso Chosen rules, Witch elves with Additional arms converted on)

Jungle Cats (Dog Rules, Old WE war cats)

Mounted Nobles (fast cav - Mounted Mauraders)

Most Heros will be spell casters and mounted on chariots (elephants)

Here are some links I found useful .. . .

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30031

http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewtopic.php?t=1100&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=0504d80c13f920a3e86660ce7f79c9b2


We'll have to keep in touch.

PS. Have you ever read Roger Zealzany’s amazing book “Lord of Light” ? (1968 hugo award: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light ) Not explicitly fantasy but a great read.

ChaosVC
14-01-2010, 03:07
How about Dragon balls? reroll 2d6 amount of dice that turn. Goku doing hamehame HA! *BOOMFFF* Big hole in the mountain. 16+ to cast str 10 3d6 magic missle.

Ultimate Life Form
14-01-2010, 03:12
Well, since we already have the 'Naga of Vashj' in the List... :eyebrows:

Foegnasher
14-01-2010, 03:20
you have obviously missed out on the true leader of any Ind Army.

Mola Rom (sp?) and his fanatical Thugee warriors!!!

Soon, Khali-ma will rule the world....

Condottiere
14-01-2010, 06:54
Unlike Cathay and Nippon, where you do have clear archetypes and a movement to homogenize, Ind probably is a vast cultural smörgåsbord, which makes it difficult to simplify to an Army Book.

Revlid
14-01-2010, 09:56
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewtopic.php?t=1105&start=0
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewtopic.php?t=1100&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=0504d80c13f920a3e86660ce7f79c9b2

mrtn
14-01-2010, 12:03
Second, you could make it high points costs and pretend it uses imported cannons from the Empire, like how Indian Armies used to have to import cannons from Europe.
The Mughals had, if not the best, then at least some of the best firearms in the world. You know, gunpowder being invented in China, and not Europe...

Sygerrik
14-01-2010, 17:33
The Mughals had, if not the best, then at least some of the best firearms in the world. You know, gunpowder being invented in China, and not Europe...

Yes, but forging cannons is extremely difficult, and India tended to have poor quality steel compared to Europe and the Arabian Peninsula (at least with the forging techniques they had available at the time). Gunpowder is not the problem; the problem is casting a cannon that doesn't split or explode when you fire it and is reasonably accurate and portable (which is much more difficult than you may think).

Condottiere
14-01-2010, 17:41
I was doing some research on another army, and discovered that Indians did use cannons with tree trunk barrels.

mrtn
14-01-2010, 18:42
Yes, but forging cannons is extremely difficult, and India tended to have poor quality steel compared to Europe and the Arabian Peninsula (at least with the forging techniques they had available at the time). Gunpowder is not the problem; the problem is casting a cannon that doesn't split or explode when you fire it and is reasonably accurate and portable (which is much more difficult than you may think).
I'm not that much of a cannon expert, but I'd assume they used bronze, since, at least according to Wikipedia, steel wasn't used in cannon until the 1850's.

BTW, if the Ind army reminds of the Mughals they should have an autocannon (some kind of organ gun, hellblaster thingy).

Another weapon invented in the Islamic world, fashioned for killing infantry, was the first known autocannon. It was invented in the 16th century, by Fathullah Shirazi, a Persian-Indian polymath and mechanical engineer, who worked for Akbar the Great in the Mughal Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon

Sygerrik
14-01-2010, 19:16
Well, without getting this thread too sidetracked, the time period in which the Warhammer world takes place is not set; however, Empire cannons seem to be made of steel and Dwarven cannons are either steel or gromril ("unobtainium").

When designing an Ind army we have to decide both what we think is an appropriate feel for the army (i.e. elite vs. cheap infantry, monstrous units, warmachines) and what is an appropriate aesthetic (Islamic Mughal India, classic Hindu/Buddhist mythology, or a general Middle/Far Eastern medley). Personally I think the mythological aspect is the best idea, mixed with some of the real-life history of Indian armies, like elephants deployed in battle.

Col. Tartleton
14-01-2010, 21:44
On one hand I want this list extremely diverse (several closely linked cultures, and a variety of good units from each as well as mythology) however on the other if its too diverse and too balanced we end up with a list that doesn't have an angle. Empire is already the classic flexible list. Brets are cavalry. Dwarves are slow but pack a punch.

Ind has a lot of possibilities. They're not going to have the ranged capabilities of Cathay (repeater bows and handguns.) Our infantry need to be large in number, India has always been populous. Poorer training then empire I'd think but better then brettonian peasants. We need to use the mythology to carry them. Vast blocks of infantry can tarpit units and then flying monkeys assault the flank and smash them. Elephants can intimidate units with fear and then tiger warriors can beast through them. Mages can blast things to bits with their Jedi Mind Tricks while archers darken the skies.

But the theme needs to become tight because I don't want it to be a mess of units that don't fit together. Spearmen from the Khuresh (Khmer) Swordmen of bengal, handgunners from the mountains of mourn (Ghurkas) Tamil bowmen, engineers from the pakistan equivalent.

Stuff like that. Lamas would be priests from the north, shramanas and brahmins from the southern parts, awakened ones would be rare figures revered as living saints by all.

Lords would be as varied as the troops, you could build them as bull riders with warhammers, elephant riders with a handgun, an archer with a horse drawn chariot, or even tiger mounted warriors with big old swords.

Vash would be the Ind snake god. His symbol is the serpent and those protected by him ride his nagas and are marked by blue pigments. A few in the Empire sees the statues as mysteriously similar to Lustrian statues depicting Sotek and points to rumors of a lost lizard man city in Khuresh.

Bram would be a bull headed god in some depiction (four bull heads). His skin is the color of blood as are his chosen who daub themselves in red clay and ride his bulls. The most worshiped god in some form. Speculations point towards the legendary Hashut but doubts persist.

Saiv would be a man in his depictions with pale skin and carrying an axe. His servants are the monkeys and his followers paint themselves in ash. His monkey servants and their king are revered, the king known well in cathay for his raids and his theft of a number of ancient relics including many of the peaches of immortality. He is much better recieved in Ind where he and his people protect travelers from bandits.

Shakti would be a woman of normal hue carrying a harp. Her servants are her many human handmaidens who wear her red third eye on their brows (largest cult among soldiers). Her chosen are ebony skinned warriors called "Redeemers" who are marked by their fierce appearances (forgoing clothes but ornamented in skulls and human bones and wielding scythes.) The Empire consider them servants of Morr.

Gavira is the round bellied elephant lord of wisdom. His servants are the great speaking elephants of Ind and his warriors the mighty Musthata. His champion Erawan is a lesser deity in his own right.

Hindra is the storm god and patron of tigers. His cult is dispersed across Ind but most common in the east. His followers offer him blood and milk. He's got feline eyes and canines and orange-red hair. He is followed by his Asuras, the tigermen of infamy across the entire continent for their inhuman ferocity and tame discipline and the speed with which they will show the former.

Col. Tartleton
14-01-2010, 22:35
Part of the benefits are you can theme the army heavily in several directions.

Ghurkas led by Lamas and an Awakened One makes for a very Tibetan or Nepali Buddhist army. You can add Monkey Warriors pretty easily as well as Nagas as mounts as those both fit into the more northern/cathayan theme. There will be a Buddha special character in the list who would also fit it.

Spearmen, swordsmen, and war elephants backed up with tiger warriors have a more eastern Khuresh feel. Led by Shramana monks they'd have that more Indochinese look. Nagas again fit under the name Tarasques.

You can have a Kali inspired Skakti deathcult with redeemers and war dancers and a courtesan leading them or even Kalima. Or mix them with male nobles elite infantry and elephants and create a rich harem.

You can have a three ring circus of porus with maxed out elephants (all elephants, the horror) and even add some elephant men with Erawan to lead the army as he's pretty much a juggernought, hard to kill and impossible to stop.

And that's just scratching the surface. Also elephants won't be too scary (pretty much a 3 wound horse with somewhat higher strength and toughness (S5,T5) and impact hits on the charge), but will cause fear. They're more weapon platforms that can hold their own then true monsters. They can have a couple archers (standard), gunners (a few points), or even a small cannon (bolt thrower) for a bit more.

RGB
14-01-2010, 23:26
http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/viewtopic.php?t=1105

Here's a long and exciting example of how an Ind list was being written. Sadly incomplete, though.

ChaosVC
15-01-2010, 04:28
I can never understand why anyone would believe that an ind army will have poorer training because it has a larger population historically?

Condottiere
15-01-2010, 05:50
Depends on the region; they probably did have warrior castes, but core would be a combination of professionals and levies that were summoned to make up the numbers.

Col. Tartleton
15-01-2010, 20:31
Which is what I plan, Spear and bow levies that would put Xerxes to shame with their numbers contrasted by natural fighter Ghurkas equivalents with Handguns and their high initiative daggers (inhuman I5) and well trained Rajput Guards armed with shields and heavy armor and maces.

As a side note that I realized while looking into all this stuff, why we learn Latin as a universal root, as Sanskrit bore Latin. For example the at first glance alien word Maharajah and we find ourselves lost. But with Latin we can span the gulf.

Maharajah
Maior Regis (I went for sound similarity rather then proper grammar)
Great King

And that's disturbingly simple.

Condottiere
16-01-2010, 01:24
It gets more interesting when you start looking for Indo European roots for deity names, some which wouldn't seem obvious. But you have to recall that the Aryans were invaders and you have to differentiate between what culture they imported and the ones that were indigenous to that area.

RGB
16-01-2010, 01:27
@autocannon: that would be an organ gun, and everyone made those in the 17th c, from Russia to France; earlier in some cases.

Cannons were eitehr bronze or cast iron, but smaller ones could be wooden with straps...I'd rate those as S4/5 at best though...:D

Condottiere
16-01-2010, 01:33
Studying early cannons can be rather entertaining, but while iron was cheaper, it was also more prone to misfire.

RGB
17-01-2010, 09:10
Studying early cannons can be rather entertaining, but while iron was cheaper, it was also more prone to misfire.

The bigger the iron cannon, the worse the misfires :D