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Murphey
12-01-2010, 20:56
Myself and several friends were talking about our growing distaste for 40k, mainly stemming from the CSM codex, 5th ed, and the new Tyranid codex.

We all went from playing roughly 9 games a week back in mid 4th ed, to playing about 1 game every 2 months currently on average. (one of use simply no longer plays)

We were discussing our various options, from switching to another game (Warmachine was one idea), to simply giving up the game entirely. Since we all have a significant chunk of change invested in 40k and it's models, we are somewhat reluctant to utterly abandon the hobby.

So, the question was raised: What about 40k homebrew? I'm somewhat surprised that this is not a more common thing, since GW seems utterly opposed to living codices, timely FAQs, rules testing, etc.

So, would you give a 40k homebrew variant a try? I certainly would be curious to give it a go.

~Murphey

Radium
12-01-2010, 20:58
I try homegrown rules all the time. It's fun.

If you have a group of players that can all agree to the changes, go for it! Keep your love for the hobby alive.

the-skylord
12-01-2010, 21:06
Go for it, as long as everyone you game with is willing to try it.

Master Jeridian
12-01-2010, 21:08
It's great fun to have a go at writing some wargame rules yourself.

The much hard part is finding people and a place to play that will take the time to try out your ideas.

Wargame writing is also a lot harder than it looks (though not as hard as GW wants you to believe).

Max Jet
12-01-2010, 21:10
GO FOR IT! And be sure to post your ideas in the Rules developement forums too! If your rules are good I might get my buddy again to play with me with our self made markers, just like we used to back in the old days ^^

Ricken
12-01-2010, 21:26
If you liked 4th so much, why not play that?

Rick Blaine
12-01-2010, 21:31
If you liked 4th so much, why not play that?

GW destroys all outdated rulebooks by remote control.

dude.sweet101@yahoo.co.uk
12-01-2010, 21:33
The new game is soooo much better than the last version its not even funny.Are you playing with enough decent opponents?
Its a decent tactical challenge now, whereas before it was the most guns game and:...."I go first, you lose,another game?"

As for 4th ed-it was error strewn and dramatically flawed-but if you liked it then happy christmas.
The game will always have problems but its way better than LoTR which is a childrens game.

Revelations
12-01-2010, 21:37
I've re-written the Nid Dex (mostly successfully, except for one massive oversight) and the Chaos Codex (mostly successfull, you can't please everyone). As long as the rules are fair and fun, I'm game to try anything at least once. Things other people write are as fair, and even more fairly priced then many a GW rule.

Kogod
12-01-2010, 21:41
Honestly, I would never trust home-made rules.

Essentially you're upset that the CSM and Tyranids codex wasn't what you wanted so you are making up your own rules? My Eldar Codex didn't have what I wanted but I am not making super vypers rules and playing with them either.

Here is the thing IMHO, Games Workshop probably screws up the rules but they have every right to make the rules as bad as they want because they invested billions of dollars over 25 years into this hobby. It is THEIR hobby and their intellectual property.

Now some yahoo comes along and say "pfft, I can make rules better! who needs GW official rules?" Well, maybe you can but this is THEIR Intellectual property.

The ironic thing is these home-made rule folks are the types of people who can't stand Forge-World rules and refuse to play against anything from Imperial Armour rulebooks.

Egaeus
12-01-2010, 22:00
Here is the thing IMHO, Games Workshop probably screws up the rules but they have every right to make the rules as bad as they want because they invested billions of dollars over 25 years into this hobby. It is THEIR hobby and their intellectual property.

Now some yahoo comes along and say "pfft, I can make rules better! who needs GW official rules?" Well, maybe you can but this is THEIR Intellectual property.

Well page 2 of the Rulebook under "The Most Important Rule!" mentions both house rules and using the rules themselves as "mere guidelines". Remember that Games Workshop is a miniatures company, not a game company. I have long lamented the fact that they don't do a better job with their game rules because then they really would have it all.

And without the players investing in GW's product GW wouldn't have any money to invest in anything...it's a sad thing that people look at it as "GW's game" since without player support you've got nothing.


Essentially you're upset that the CSM and Tyranids codex wasn't what you wanted so you are making up your own rules? My Eldar Codex didn't have what I wanted but I am not making super vypers rules and playing with them either.

It's never about walking into your FLGS with a home-brew codex and expecting a pick-up opponent to let you use it. It's about like-minded individuals who want to try something different, well...trying something different. If you had opponents who felt Vypers were sub-par and wouldn't mind you tweaking the rules and/or points costs then that's great. Every player's venue is different and this is another pet peeve of mine that there are point costs and so many people see them as sacrosanct when they just aren't.



The ironic thing is these home-made rule folks are the types of people who can't stand Forge-World rules and refuse to play against anything from Imperial Armour rulebooks.

Obviously this a gross generalization. Do you have any proof to back this statement up?

Fundamentally it comes down to player attitude. If you have a group that wants to try something different then I say go for it! And I strongly believe that GW would have the same attitude, especially if you are using their product. ;)

Revelations
12-01-2010, 22:06
Essentially you're upset that the CSM and Tyranids codex wasn't what you wanted so you are making up your own rules? My Eldar Codex didn't have what I wanted but I am not making super vypers rules and playing with them either.
Without getting into another CSMCodexHateFest :rolleyes: yes, I didn't like it, merely because I felt a lot of the *fun* had been stripped from it. And this game is about fun for me. The Nid Codex was merely the begining of updating all old Codecies to work within the realm of 5th Ed. Since GW wasn't going to get around to it, I was going to do it for them. Even some of the Eldar Codex needs a little work, and if you're super Vypers are well written and properly balanced, I would welcome you to play them.

Here is the thing IMHO, Games Workshop probably screws up the rules but they have every right to make the rules as bad as they want because they invested billions of dollars over 25 years into this hobby. It is THEIR hobby and their intellectual property.
Actually, it's *my* hobby and their intellectual property. But they've even stated officially that I can do pretty much whatever I want with it so long as I don't violate copywrite regulations. Why not simply outlaw all custom conversions or paint schemes? "By George! That SM has an off color blue tint to it's armor! That's not right at all!"

The ironic thing is these home-made rule folks are the types of people who can't stand Forge-World rules and refuse to play against anything from Imperial Armour rulebooks.
Love em, not sure who you're playing with. But I don't mind updating the old ones so their rules make sense with the new edition. ;)

This is another example of how there are many levels of "purists", which I happen to be very liberal on. People often draw strange lines at what point they feel something is no longer acceptable, and as you pointed out Kogod, there are many who have what would appear to be double standards. I am all for people have fun in a hobby they choose to invest in. Should you not like the paint job I have on my Bike, that's certainly your opinion, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to do whatever I choose to with my own property.

And I would avoid leaning out of your car to scream obscenities at my paint job; that's a good way to lose an arm. :)

the_gobbo_king
12-01-2010, 22:15
The new game is soooo much better than the last version its not even funny.Are you playing with enough decent opponents?
Its a decent tactical challenge now, whereas before it was the most guns game and:...."I go first, you lose,another game?"

As for 4th ed-it was error strewn and dramatically flawed-but if you liked it then happy christmas.
The game will always have problems but its way better than LoTR which is a childrens game.

Dude Sweet I am offended by the generalisation that LoTR is a childrens game stated by yours truly. Yes I am a teenager, and yes I do play LoTR, but your comment implies that I act like a complete baby and that is the complete oppisite (spelling?) of what my opponents (respected adults) think about me. LoTR doesn't get a following in my store and I am restricted to 40k most of the time. Maybe you should give LoTR a decent go and play against a respected opponent then judge it, otherwise stop blurting out unsupported criticism of a game that is OT in this thread. Either that or support your arguements sir.

OT then, Yes I would try any set of homebrew rules provided I can read them first and you don't spring anything nasty like:
"My vypers are armour 14 all round." :eek:

Thanks,
SW

Kogod
12-01-2010, 22:31
I apologize,

Let me clarify my thoughts on the matter. If its between 2 like minded people who agreed on the rules beforehand by all means great!

However, its another thing completely if you walk into a club or store then try to persuade people to play with you using your own rules and then get upset when no one bother to and then rant about how crappy the original GW codex rules are.

Honestly, it should only happen between 2 players who know each other to ensure its fair and balanced. If I'm playing against a stranger I can't help but maybe bend the rules to my taste to give me an edge.

Master Jeridian
12-01-2010, 23:07
The game will always have problems but its way better than LoTR which is a childrens game.

I'd respond to a 5th Ed 40k player calling other wargames childish...but I think I may have literally split my sides laughing.

GW encourages players to alter or house rule the games as they wish with opponents agreement.

As long as your not selling your home grown ruleset they're fine.
As long as your home-grown ruleset is not posted online, printed, etc as word-for-word GW official Codex's, rulebooks, etc (i.e. your basically giving out their IP for free) then they're fine.

Altering your own Codex or creating your own army is paradoxically easier to do than to re-write your own entire wargame, but is far harder not to fall into the fanboy trap of just making them uber (or the more neurotic opposite- nerfing them to utter rubbish to appease playtester friends).


Honestly, it should only happen between 2 players who know each other to ensure its fair and balanced. If I'm playing against a stranger I can't help but maybe bend the rules to my taste to give me an edge.

This should go without saying, it would be insane to pop into your local GW and expect strangers to suddenly learn a new home-grown ruleset to play you.

Long before you and the opponent put down models to play the game, your opponent should have had the oppurtunity to read the ruleset, offer suggestions and basically be a part of the fine-tuning.
People used to create rather than consume hobbies/items/etc- it can be fun.

Blink
12-01-2010, 23:21
My friend and I combine 40k with the powers of the game Quadradius (like checkers on crack... it's free and browser based, so google it and try it out) to create something awesome.

Bunnahabhain
13-01-2010, 01:02
Don't bother with home brew rules. Writing rules well is hard work. let someone sle do it for you, and...

Download stargrunt II instead. It's free, it works well, and 40k models and units fit with the scale and type of play it is designed for.

It's also balanced and tactically complex.


In a similar vein, get a copy of Epic, also available for free...
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat1290025&categoryId=1100014&section=&aId=4900003

You can fairly easily convert Epic to use 40k models, with a bit of common sense and compromise.

Justicar_Freezer
13-01-2010, 04:27
Yeah I'd give it a try. My gaming group and I have done so a few times with our games.

One time we tried doing each side activates a unit at a time alternating back and forth between each side until both sides had moved all their units. Each unit also got a number of actions such as move/shoot/charge ect. It worked out to be quite fun though we found out that it made the game much longer seeing as we only got in 2 full turns. Still was alot more fun then One side sitting through the others entire turn before getting to do anything.

I think to me and the people I play with we see this simply as a game. It's something we do on our thursday nights to have fun. If changing the rules slightly, or writing entirely new army books is part of the fun I see nothing wrong with that.

However if you wrote your own army book and went looking for pick up games I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't get to many games. IMO if you bring the rules you wrote up and let me look through them before the game and I don't think they are going to make for an unfun game I'll put my army on the board and throw dice. A games a game after all rather it's with offical GW rules or fan made rules.

druchii
13-01-2010, 07:38
Myself and several friends were talking about our growing distaste for 40k, mainly stemming from the CSM codex, 5th ed, and the new Tyranid codex.

We all went from playing roughly 9 games a week back in mid 4th ed, to playing about 1 game every 2 months currently on average. (one of use simply no longer plays)

We were discussing our various options, from switching to another game (Warmachine was one idea), to simply giving up the game entirely. Since we all have a significant chunk of change invested in 40k and it's models, we are somewhat reluctant to utterly abandon the hobby.

So, the question was raised: What about 40k homebrew? I'm somewhat surprised that this is not a more common thing, since GW seems utterly opposed to living codices, timely FAQs, rules testing, etc.

So, would you give a 40k homebrew variant a try? I certainly would be curious to give it a go.

~Murphey

I'd try it, but I'd bet that 5th ed. would still be better.

And I think you see fewer homebrew rules sets because making a cohesive, good body of rules is actually quite difficult. Especially making said rules parsimonious and understandable by joe-beer-stain.

d

Lord Solar Plexus
13-01-2010, 08:36
No, I wouldn't. I'm perfectly happy with the game as is.

Petay1985
13-01-2010, 09:13
My 40k friends and i run home brew rules all the time, the level of change varies minor alterations (e.g. land raider able to fire both sponson weapons as standard) to major re-writes (Imperial Guard Storm Troopers!) we are even writing a Codex Inquisition at the moment, which is shaping up very nicely!! :cool:

Drakon
13-01-2010, 09:24
If you liked 4th so much, why not play that?


exactly my thought, if you use to play it alot you would most likely still have all the rules and books so why not jsut play 4th?

if you want to go and make homebrew rules do it why do you need to come online and ask a question like this if all are for it? really i would understand if it was half and half but if all are for it and you think you can then just do it

Also what is wrong about 5th? sorry i just dont see it i think its fine and with the size of the rules that they have to make and all the books for every single army that they make do you think there all going to be uber storng and have no flaws? comon do you really think you could do a better job if you had to right them all and have everybody in teh whole world praising your greatness while still making the models to keep people in the hobby?

sorry i just cant stand it when because something isnt the way a certain couple of people dont want it to be they will scream out and say its crap and GW dont know what they are doing. there seems to be alot of people that are happy to keep playing and havent stayed with previous versions

the1stpip
13-01-2010, 10:30
Although I wouldnt say never, I would be very skeptical that the rules were suitably balanced.

It would be much better to just introduce some house rules to change the areas you are not happy with.

IJW
13-01-2010, 10:41
Sure I'd try it, but having dabbled with writing rules-set myself a few times I have to echo the suggestions to just use 4th edition or Stargrunt instead.

Helicon_One
13-01-2010, 10:57
Its your gaming group, if you want to switch back to 4th Ed or rewrite the movement rules or make a warmachine hybrid or resolve shooting by firing stones at your enemy's models with a catapult, do whatever you like.

Would I give your particular ruleset a try? Probably not in all honesty, there's hundreds of 40K rewrites out there and unless yours had some incredible innovation that leapt out at me I'd read through it out of curiosity and keep using the existing set, since I don't have many issues with it.

spevna
13-01-2010, 14:00
Take a look at ;

http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/index.php?page=sci-fi

There are plenty of rules here to get you started. One guy even wrote stats and rules for most 40K stuff based around Space Crusade. Looked fun but I never tried it.

One of the members on here wrote a skirmish level set of 40K rules using LOTR as a springboard.

Have a hunt around, there is plenty of food for thought.

Here it is;

http://imperiumbattles.com/

jt.glass
13-01-2010, 14:07
Don't bother with home brew rules. Writing rules well is hard work.I can vouch for that being true, as I am working on a homebrew game myself ATM. It's going rather slowly. However...


It's great fun to have a go at writing some wargame rules yourself....is also true, which is the main reason I'm doing it. That, and I am both an inveterate tinkerer and a bit of a control freak. :angel:

So if you're doing it because you think it'll be fun, then go for it. If you are doing it only because you don't like 5e, then as several people have pointed out there are several easier options.


jt.

DarkReaver
13-01-2010, 14:24
I don't mind the idea of homebrew stuff but I play at a GW store and don't have any friends who play 40K so I'm left with the actual rules.

Heck I've even tried designing my own Codex's in the forms of Codex: Brotherhood of Nod (Command & Conquer) and Codex Tha'roon (WarWind). I would love one day to see if there is any balance to them.

Phaedron2
13-01-2010, 18:52
Considering I've written a brand new chaos marine codex I'd have to say I'd at least be willing to give it a try

Egaeus
13-01-2010, 19:16
Also what is wrong about 5th? sorry i just dont see it i think its fine and with the size of the rules that they have to make and all the books for every single army that they make do you think there all going to be uber storng and have no flaws? comon do you really think you could do a better job if you had to right them all and have everybody in teh whole world praising your greatness while still making the models to keep people in the hobby?

There are a number of issues with 5th. Heck, if 4th were perfect (at this point let's go back further and say 3rd, then 2nd, then...would Rogue Trader be "1st Edition"?) we wouldn't really need a fifth edition. There are a number of game systems out there that have been around as long as 40K and haven't changed anywhere near as much over the years. To me, 5th edition was a much a step sideways as a step forward, as there were a number of things that got changed that IMHO didn't need to be...a few things did need cleaning up. So we still have something of a mixed bag of good and bad. And I would suspect that when 6th edition rolls around it will be a similar situation.

One of the issues I have with the game is that once the Codex is out even if people consensually agree that there are flawed units the response it "well, GW made them so they are the rules" instead of saying "what should the rules have been and how would it affect the game if we used them that way?" Even The Most Important Rule of the game says that we can take their rules as "suggestions".

The rules and the models are two completely different things. You don't need the models to play the game. You don't need the game to use the models. That GW chose to produce a game so that you would have a specifc use for their models (remember that making models is their core business) is nice, but you have to remember that it in itself is as much a marketing tool for those models as it is just a game.


sorry i just cant stand it when because something isnt the way a certain couple of people dont want it to be they will scream out and say its crap and GW dont know what they are doing. there seems to be alot of people that are happy to keep playing and havent stayed with previous versions

As I said, how many people just "suck it up" because those are the rules GW chose to give them, and being such if they want to play with others in an "official" (I don't care for this word choice but can't come up with anything else at the moment) capacity must abide by them? I would agree that we could do with a bit less hyperbole but I don't see any problems with players having an opinion about a hobby they've chosen to invest time and money in.

Murphey
14-01-2010, 01:18
If you liked 4th so much, why not play that?

Several reasons. First off, 4th ed was far from perfect. While I would consider it vastly superior to 5th, it had it's own set of frustrations caused by vague rules, nonsensical rules interactions, etc.

Secondly, it's not that simple. The dynamic in which my friends and I seemed to have the most fun was the period in which the CSM codex was 3.5. The Space marine codex was 4th. The tyranid was 4th. Etc.

The major drop in our playing (and enjoyment) started with the 4th ed CSM codex, took a sharp drop with 5th ed, and pretty much hit rock bottom with the newest 'nid codex.

Playing a completely static game that is never updated loses it's appeal after a while. Simply reverting to 4th would not really solve the problem we're having. We do not mind that the game has changed (in fact, a steady trickle of change is good as it adds a dash of novelty), but we mind that the game seems to have changed for the far worse.

4th ed was not perfect. 5th was worse (imo). It does seem like a better option is to simply play with a better ruleset, not necessarily reverting back to a more enjoyable yet flawed ruleset.

~Murphey

Egaeus
14-01-2010, 08:31
4th ed was not perfect. 5th was worse (imo). It does seem like a better option is to simply play with a better ruleset, not necessarily reverting back to a more enjoyable yet flawed ruleset.

~Murphey

I suppose part of it fundamentally comes down to whether you want to consider yourself "playing 40K" or just a wargame where you happen to use Citadel miniatures.

Why not just come up with a hybrid system taking the best of the editions and then make other tweaks as necessary? Surely there was some good in the 40K system or you probably wouldn't have played it long at all. Of course this sort of thing is going to really depend on the coherency of your group of players as you may find they don't all have the same opinons on what constitutes the "best parts" of any particular edition. ;)

lanrak
14-01-2010, 09:28
HI all.
May I point out we all take part in the table top minature gaming hobby.
Some of us use GW PLC products exclusivley, and some of use use a wider range of products.

IT IS YOUR HOBBY!
So feel free to try out new things, as long as you are having fun , then thats all that matters IMO.

As others have pointed out there are lots of alternative rules sets that may prove closer to your ideal game , or at least be easier to adapt than 40k.:evilgrin:

Most of the games we play we adapt to suit us better, and we have played quite a few at our games club over the last 20 years....:D.

So be as creative and adaptive as you want , it is YOUR hobby after all.

Happy gaming ,
Lanrak.

Str10_hurts
14-01-2010, 12:35
I would not stop you and if it works for you then that is great!

I am really happy with 5th....lots and lots of tactics just to win the game.
The true line of sight was really difficult for me to adjust to but its not worse, the wound allocation is way easer and clear in mixed model/army units. Finally I can bolter out that warlock!

Its a transition phase your in (IMHO). I'd say play lots of 5th ed games with different set-ups, and try and get used to it as fast as possible. Otherwise take a look in the rules development forum.

Edit: And if you are looking for a dynamic game...you might want to look into warmachine

Murphey
14-01-2010, 16:47
Its a transition phase your in (IMHO). I'd say play lots of 5th ed games with different set-ups, and try and get used to it as fast as possible. Otherwise take a look in the rules development forum.


I've actually played 5th quite extensively. Several tournaments, multiple stores, the whole works.

Inevitably, high end play always breaks down to musical chairs. I've seen entire matches fought without a single casualty being taken. Many armies I see are set up to never really even shoot. Just stay off the board for as many turns as possible, and then tankshock an objective.

Ultimately, it's just not fun for me in the least. I would like to play a war game, not musical chairs with miniatures.

Now, if some (or even all) of you enjoy that, that's great. But for myself it's really not fun.

~Murphey

tsutek
14-01-2010, 19:29
IT IS YOUR HOBBY!
So feel free to try out new things, as long as you are having fun , then thats all that matters IMO.

that (Lanrak's the man! I've missed you ;))

I'd give your homebrewed rules a spin any day. Even GW states that there's two sides to their wargaming:

1) the "software" ie. the rules

2) the "hardware" ie. the models (or to be more precise, bits of/for models)

So if you happen to knock out the next linux, sure I'd try it.. Actually I'm building a mod to Necromunda core rules myself (but it sure takes time to get it done proper, they ain't lying when they say rules design is a challenge)

I also enjoy modding GW "hardware" immensely - kitbashing existing bitz to create unique new creatures and machines is often more fun than building the "official" kits.

I can understand the mechanicum-style stagnated view if we're talking about pick-up games and tourneys.. But those never were my cup of tea.

totgeboren
14-01-2010, 20:09
I would try it sure, but I don't really see why you would go through all the trouble of making a new rule set? Why don't just change the rules you don't like?

Me and my friends often tweak the rules a bit. For example, I often include human cultists (using the 3:ed rules released in Chapter Approved) with my Word Bearer Chaos marines, and just that little detail makes all the difference for me. It feels like I'm playing Word Bearers, and not some half-arsed renegades.

One friend plays Iron Hands, and we let him use the Iron Father from the Index Astartes article.
I have made some Zoats, with rules made using creature feature and the Nids codex. playtested some, and then they had their rules tweaked.

My brother played Blood Angels during 2/3:ed, but with the latest SM codex switched over to that. He still likes his Baal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought, so we let him use those too.

I mean, if there are some things you don't like, see what you could tweak to make the rules more to your liking, then ask your opponent what they say about it.

No reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater (or however you say it in english?)