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MyDiceSuck
12-01-2010, 21:05
Generally I'm getting a bit fed up of 40K. It's never been the game that I enjoyed most but I'm enjoying this current edition even less. For me it's reached the point where it's no longer about who is the smartest tactician, or who's the better player, it seems to be about who can write the best army list. Once a hard as nails beardy list has been created then the player using it is almost irrelevant.

I can't tell you the number of times that I've seen Ork and Tyranid armies out numbered by Space Marines or Necrons. Maybe I'm a traditionalist but to me that's plain wrong and completely away from the spirit of the game.

On the whole the new codexes seem to be getting silly. Each new one released is as ridiculously hard to beat as the previous updated one and those already lagging are trailing miserably in their wake. The games developers are coming across as mad scientists hell-bent on creating the next mega-hard unit or character without asking the question should this really be like this? It's as if they'd create a character that could single handedly destroy a 20 strong unit. Instead of sitting back and saying hang on a minute, they seem to high five and say "Sweet!"

The problem for me is that people are more likely then to buy these stupidly hard armies and their win ratios increase but you have to ask is that really down to them as a tactician? Good decisions and bad decisions will always play their part and so will luck with the dice. But I just feel that 40K has become all about power lists.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

Radium
12-01-2010, 21:14
Sure, the newer books are a step above the older books. But I also think the newer books are all roughly on the same level. So when all armies have a new book like that, it'll all even out.

blackroyal
12-01-2010, 21:14
Maybe it is just where I play, but the "power list" players seldom bring such lists. We bring nasty lists to be sure, but we try to stay away from the "why even bother" lists the internet can produce.

If you do not have the luxury of playing with people who are out to have a good time/ tell a story/ not show how manly their miniture collection makes them, then I am quite sorry for you.

That said, the new codex lists seldom produce "I win" lists. As long as you have a balanced list, you should be able to hold your own.

Ozendorph
12-01-2010, 21:17
Maybe playing with like-minded people would solve your issues?

Sure the codices allow for some beardy lists (nothing new there, and I've been playing well before there were codices) but ultimately it's up to the players as to what they put on the table.

Hypaspist
12-01-2010, 21:20
MyDice, I would disagree that there are armies that are instant "IWIN" buttons, however, certain lists will cut you a lot more slack if you play less well than your opponent it's true. Whilst others require a greater attention to detail and concentration to win with.

Ultimately as has been said several times before, table top wargaming is somewhat of a social contract (latest standard bearer article in White Dwarf about 'The Face' is actually a great article around this topic) you should 'both' be out for a good time, however, if you are in a position where this does not happen, then it *will* be more difficult to enjoy a game.

This said is it only the playing or other elements of the hobby you derive pleasure from? (ie, perhaps a break from gaming to get some painting/scratch building might reap rewards?)
:)

LouiseDePointe
12-01-2010, 21:22
I have the same problem with 40k. The problem isn't necessarily the armies themselves though- it just seems like they have less and less thought behind the actual gameplay required to win and more emphasis on list building. To me, a good game should be the other way around.

My gaming group has almost totally abandoned 40k for fantasy because it offers a more tactical approach and while there are a couple of crazy power lists, my group tends to avoid them (have TK, OK, WE, LM, and skaven armies in the group currently.)

Anyways, I hear you, and I hope the tactical element is emphasized soon. 40k is such a fun game, I'd hate for it to become 100% about the list you bring.

Murphey
12-01-2010, 21:29
I'm feeling very dissatisfied with 40k myself, and baring a GW miracle, I'm going to probably stop playing the actual ruleset.

Looking into some homebrew stuff myself, maybe something will turn up.

~Murphey

CplHicks
12-01-2010, 21:33
Well, I enjoy the game more and more. Life is full of surprises, isnīt it?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
12-01-2010, 21:35
As was said, the problem isn't the game, it's the people that play it. Find some like-minded folks and all the problems you're seeing will melt away. House rules, agreements between players, etc.

IronNerd
12-01-2010, 21:36
I feel where your group has been going Murphey. I used to play 40k about twice a week, and I think I've played once in the last month. As you were saying in your "Homebrew" thread, Warmachine has been growing on me.

As to the OP, it's not the "OMG my army is teh leetz, you can't win" that bugs me. I'm legitimately starting to get frustrated with GW. They just don't give a crap about us. Yes, each codex seems to get stronger, but mostly with only one or two builds. IG can wreck people, but you saw a lot of similar high performing lists at 'Ard Boyz. The biggest problem with hard lists is that they tend to be obvious.

I'm jumping in on a local PnP soon, trying to get some Renegade IG together, and I'm hoping it sparks my interest and brings me back into the fold. If that doesn't work, I'm afraid Privateer Press is going to be getting some money from my wallet...

themandalorian
12-01-2010, 21:46
I'm curious what examples of strong lists you guys have. Really a win all? Most guys where I am playing seem to disagree

Kogod
12-01-2010, 21:47
The current state of 40k is much better balanced than Fantasy by a long-shot.

The new space wolves codex wasn't nearly as bad as people say it was going to be and the Tyranids are probably not going to be too bad either.

40k is not perfect but like free-market democracies, it's the best thing out there.

Mannimarco
12-01-2010, 21:48
it all boils down to why do you and your opponent play the game?

indeed its meant to be fun for both players but if sombody turns up with a power list and tables their opponents fun list in 3 turns without breaking a sweat then yeah he might have fun but you can be sure the fun player does not

just play people with a similar mindset to yourself and you'll be fine, you want to play fun lists then play other fun lists, you making an all out cheesefest that you would be as well hitting your oppenent with a block of edam instead of deploying your army then play other people like that and I guarantee you will both have fun

failing that you could *chuckles to myself* play fantasy *chuckles* with its greater reliance on tactics and not cheesy list building and deathstar units. Sorry I cant say it with a straight face, pretty much the reason I deserted fantasy and moed to 40k was the amount of uber units of doom popping up all over the place, theres to many lists with that one character who beats down whole units like he was their daddy, dont need much tactics when you can just drop a few hundred point character on a dragon on some poor unsuspecting unit and watch him kill them all

before I go, just want to say hi to all my fantasy playing friends who play vampires and daemons, tactical genius's one and all

TheShadowCow
12-01-2010, 21:58
Nothing in the OP's post is recent development, nor is it isolated to Wh40k. You're just seeing/feeling the syndromes of a wide range of people using a variable rules set.

Look at MTG - some circles are easy going and low-power, others are full of fourth-turn-kills and if you don't pour in several hundred Ģ a month you've got no hope.

Game systems that aren't designed like Chess (*almost* 100% balanced) are as much about who you play with as what you play. If you're having issues, talk toy our gaming group about it and see if they want to change things around.

Lord_Squinty
12-01-2010, 22:13
I'm enjoying this version of 40k the most. Its not without its problems, but balance between the armies certainly isnt a problem.

Sure, every time a new codex comes out there's a knee-jerk "overpowered" shout, but that usually dies down after a week or two.

Want to see REAL imbalance in a game? go play fantasy ;)

Kogod
12-01-2010, 22:17
Yes MTG is terrible and actually in the long-run MUCH MORE expensive than 40k because all your cards become worthless after 1 year because Wizards of the Coast wants you to purchase newer recent cards.

That's why I left Magic.

LouiseDePointe
12-01-2010, 22:22
I wasn't saying fantasy didn't have OTT lists. I was saying that fantasy, more so than 40k, requires a ton of planning and strategy. Whereas 40k has more emphasis on the list itself. Even the cheesiest of fantasy lists can be beaten by a superior player.

Earthbeard
12-01-2010, 22:28
A good army list does not equate a good player.

It's meant to be fun for all, if it isn't don't do it, or find someway of making it fun.
Bring fun lists and chractful builds and chuckle as they get hammered by "the god list", all the while having fun with what you enjoy.

Zeroth
12-01-2010, 22:45
Quite the contrary. I'm enjoying 40k more than ever, it might be because I had a long time break and now that I am back, I am older and play more mature.

But I'm a fan of the simplifications that 5th ed. brought, but I am also eager to see how 6th edition turns out. I'm sure they've learned something from 5th that they'd like to change. However I hope it's a couple of years until they bring on the next edition.

themandalorian
12-01-2010, 22:47
Can I see any of these god lists though I'm curious.

Eulenspiegel
12-01-2010, 23:00
I think this is the wrong thread to fish for powerlists :shifty:

Ozendorph
12-01-2010, 23:08
Can I see any of these god lists though I'm curious.

Just judging by the OP's "I've seen Ork and Tyranid armies out numbered by Space Marines or Necrons" comment, I'm assuming he's talking about Nob Bikerz/Battle Wagon lists and some Nidzilla variant. Everyone knows there's no such thing as an "unbeatable" list, probably a bit of hyperbole going on here.

I'm sure the OP isn't the first guy to ponder the wisdom of continuing 40k after having his head handed to him by Nob Bikerz, but rather than quit the hobby I think it would be better to ask his friend to play a list that doesn't make him want to punch babies.

Mannimarco
12-01-2010, 23:10
at least its more subtle than the usual

noob: "hey ive just bought these units, sombody here write me an army list that will pwn evrybody"

warseer: "ok lets see, do you have the codex"

noob: "no but im going to get it, can sombody write me an army list"

.......and I just got ninjad

ok try this for a list, its wont win you every game but whatever it touches dies (assuming it get to touch anything being so slow)

my old deffwing had 26 models and 4 of them were battlewagons, theres a small power list right there

squeekenator
13-01-2010, 00:24
I'm rather curious as to why you believe there is power creep going on. The current 40K is the most balanced version I've ever played, and from what I've heard of the times before I started playing, they were a mess balance-wise. The 5th edition codexes so far:

- Orks. I'm pretty sure this was the first proper 5th edition codex. Yes, it was released during 4th, but it's still a 5th edition book at heart. This codex was big. Orks made a huge splash, and they're one of the best armies in the game.

- Daemons. Yeah. Them. Most people haven't played against them, the people that have tend to have rather neutral reactions to them. The Daemon codex didn't even make any ripples in the metagame, much less a splash. Damn fun to play with, though.

- Space Marines. The only thing anyone ever mentions about this codex is TH+SS Terminators, saying that they're utterly impervious to all attacks and will annihilate your army in one turn. Actually, point for point they're far more vulnerable to anti-infantry firepower than Tactical Mraines, so they should just cop a faceful of lasfire and go down. Other than the greatly exaggerated threat of the Terminators and a couple of complaints about Vulkan, I haven't heard any complaints about SM balance.

- Imperial Guard. Woohoo! It's an awesome codex with some very solid builds. Similarly to the Space Marine codex, everyone talks about the Vendetta and how it's sooooo overpowered because it has lots of cheap lascannons. Entertainingly enough, these are usually the same people who will then go into another thread and talk about meltaguns being the only useful anti-tank weapon in 5th edition and how traditional AT guns are useless. Besides having guns that don't work in the current metagame, Vendettas are really huge and fragile. Other than them, the list is strong but balanced. It can certainly make some powerful builds, but I doubt you've been playing against the leafblower army, since it's by all accounts incredibly costly to make.

- Space Wolves! ZOMGRAGEOVERPOWEREDLOLOMGWTFBBQBROKENIHATEWOLVESBE TTERTHANALLOTHERMARINESLOL!
Yeah.
Basically, the whole internet was aflame with huge rants about how everything in the Space Wolf codex was broken and they were a sign from God that the end of the world was nigh and all such things. Actually, the book is pretty balanced, and nothing ended up happening because of it. Jaws of the World Wolf is a bloody stupid power, and if you know you're going to be against Necrons or Orks you can take it an autowin, but generally it's underwhelming and ignored. Space Puppies are just another flavour of Marine.

- As you may have noticed, all of Warseer is involved in a huge debate over the new Tyranid codex, with a huge number of people complaining about how everything in the book is useless and how, come January 16th, every Carnifex is going to suddenly burst into flames and every weapon in all non-Tyranid armies are going to spontaneously transform into meltaguns and missile launchers to instakill Warriors. You don't have to worry about Tyranid power lists, because it seems that every Tyranid player in the world is going to eBay their collection soon enough.

On the other hand, there are the old codexes. Tau, Necrons and Daemonhunters are pretty crappy, but Daemonhunters have always been pretty crappy, and the other two codexes were just hit hard by the 5th edition changes. It's nothing to do with power creep, where each codex has to be better than the one before it, it's just that the new rulebook had some unfortunate side effects that nerfed those two armies. On the other hand, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines and Witch Hunters are all as competitive as ever, with Witch Hunters actually becoming much better thanks to the 5th edition rulebook. In fact, Eldar and Chaos Marines are often listed as being the two strongest codexes, despite also being older than the ones you're complaining about. I'm sorry, but you can't claim that there's some massive codex creep o' doom going on when Dark Eldar, the oldest legal codex, is capable of giving every other army a solid kick in the teeth and taking their lunch money.

themandalorian
13-01-2010, 00:58
I was going along the lines of some hidden tactics or the like to go along with the list as the reason its so strong. Things like rhino rushes and fish of fury from what I've read is what I am thinking. I guess I was imagining that and some members here were thinking who has the biggest gun?

Creeping Dementia
13-01-2010, 01:00
I'm far from getting fed up with 40k, I'm having a great time with the current edition and armies.

If you're really having trouble against specific armies, then change your list or tactics. There isn't a single army out there that is invincible, there are some that are tougher than others, but they can all be beaten by a good list with a solid player behind it. At least thats how things work in my area, if a great list or player comes along then he'll be challeged by lots of players in an attempt to improve lists and tactics. Its a fun competitive atmosphere, open to experimentation, and is much better than the alternative of complaining/quitting the game.

Kriegfreak
13-01-2010, 01:04
Seems to me op you started playing for the wrong reasons right from the start. 40k never will be a taticians game, especially with dice/luck involved. Play it for the minis, the fluff, the painting, and the goodvtimes. Or find something more to your liking.

totgeboren
13-01-2010, 01:06
3:ed made me stop playing. 4:ed brought me back, and got afew of my friends interested too. 5:ed has got me hooked again. :)

I dunno, I do not exaggerate if I say i only spend maybe 1% of my game-time actually playing the game. Most of the time is spent converting, painting and reading, and also tweaking lists so they feel 'just right'.

But I think the 5:ed rules are quite good. It has opened up so many more different builds to play with.

3:ed, everything with close combat weapons was awesome, everything with rapid-fire weapons sucked.

4:ed, roles are reversed, but not to such a huge extent. Close combat was still very useful.

5:ed, now I really need a mix of troops if i want to survive, and all-round troops are very useful. Also, Troops (whom I love seeing lots of) are very important, and the new codices make them very useful for the army too.

Born Again
13-01-2010, 05:03
I'm having a great time with 40k. I still think it's better now than it ever has been. If there's a problem with uber-lists, that's entirely the problem of the players writing them, and has nothing to do with the games designers, the books or the games mechanics. Find some like-minded people to enjoy fun, but competitive games with: the two are not mutually exclusive. Playing in the spirit of your army does not mean insta-loss. This way the game can be fun. People who treat it as an exercise in writing uber-lists are the ones treating it the wrong way and, for the record, it has nothing to do with the current edition of army books: people have been doing that ever since I started playing in 2nd edition. If anything, it was worse then, what with all manner of wargear cards and a whole turn phase for psychic powers.

Thud
13-01-2010, 05:11
5th edition is the most balanced 40k has ever been. Cheesy lists no longer exist and tactics go a hell of a lot longer than your armylist.

Don't get me wrong; I'm all for whinging at GW, but credit where credit's due; 5th edition is great!

vladsimpaler
13-01-2010, 05:11
If 40k is sucking right now for you, then take a break. I did for a while.

It's funny, 40k is the polar opposite of Fantasy.

Fantasy has great core rules but shoddy army books.

40k has terrible core rules but decent (read: not fantasy daemon power level) books.

So take a break. The game isn't going anywhere unless the company crumbles.

Master Jeridian
13-01-2010, 05:16
I'm not sure what your aim was, and the post count of 12 had a faint whiff of troll, but your post was elegantly written and I shared the same sentiments a long time ago.

Sadly, I don't think you will outshake it, 40k just isn't that tactically or strategically deep. It only seems so if it's the only wargame you play, or worse, the 'GW Hobby' mentality means it's the only wargame you've ever heard of.

People play wargames for many reasons- socialising, modelling, larking around, the 'cinematic' spectacle of moving the models around, and lastly for tactical/competitive play.
40k satisfies several of those, but for people wanting a fair, balanced ruleset that concentrates on the player's decisions and tactics, it doesn't. And if that's what you like about wargaming it will slowly grate at you with every defeat to dice, or sick combo, or rules change for change's sake.

I'd suggest trying out Fantasy, Epic, LoTR, War Machine, FoW, etc if financially viable (most could surely be a few free demo games)- and just basically getting experience of more than 40k. I'd personally recommend Epic, FoW, Fantasy- in that order.

You may find you appreciate 40k more, if nothing else than you've taken a break from it.

Bolter Bait
13-01-2010, 05:23
Sure, the newer books are a step above the older books. But I also think the newer books are all roughly on the same level. So when all armies have a new book like that, it'll all even out.HAH! That situation will only occur if all armies actually get updated between editions. Which won't happen ever, what with random design priority shifts (Dark Angels vs any newer SM codex), unnecessary Marine codex bloat, and maverick authors being given too much loose rein.

I've all but wandered away from 40k. The background still interests me, as does the modeling aspect. But really, if I want to play game with internal balance between all factions, I'd go pick up my Warmachine figs or else play a strategy board game. Cheaper that way too. Spend next to nothing on a game that won't need rules updates for decades or suddenly and drastically alter the balance between the power and appeal of a bishop vs a rook solely for the purpose of selling more rooks for 5 years, then flip-flopping back to bishops.

Lexington
13-01-2010, 05:37
Personally, I've migrated back to Warmachine after an extended 40K relapse. The grim darkness of the far future is just looking too grim, dark and poorly-balanced for me anymore. Time to opt for a company that feels its future is in customer satisfaction rather than continually dashed hopes.

shabbadoo
13-01-2010, 06:07
Does anyone else feel the same way?

Nope. Not at all. That people can(and do) make army lists that don't follow the fluff is irrelevant to me. Besides, I enjoy dismantling elite "power lists" with very fluffy, balanced armies. After that happens a few times to players who "power build", they begin to wrap their minds around the fact that small, elite armies are inherently at a disadvantage against enemies who greatly outnumber them. Or, if they are rather stupid, they call their opponent's army list cheesy, for only cheese far beyond their super stinky Limburger cheese army list could beat them. that or bad dice rolls, as surely they could not be the ones at fault. :p

I do not run a super elite armies, nor do I run uber horde armies either. I run armies somewhere in the middle of those two, which is what for most armies I would consider to be normal. I also almost universally run all-comers lists, and I really don't care if somebody builds an army specifically to kill my army either. It is always interesting to fight against an army that is supposedly tailor-made to lay waste to my forces. Best of all, with simple but balanced army lists, when you beat the living snot out of a power gamer, they can't call you a cheeseball whatsoever. If they do, you just show your army list to other people and and watch as your opponent is laughed out of the game store/club.

It seems to me you are more sick of the type of players you have been playing against rather than the game. Maybe. The game caters to all kinds of players. Some people like to play a certain way. Some like to play to fluff, some like to power game. People have fun in different ways. It is just what works for them. I have my own preferences, which are similar to yours, but you are being a bit of snob when you think that only your idea of how the game should be played is the right one. Find a like-minded group of players to play against and you will be much happier. If you can't do that, either accept it or move on.

darker4308
13-01-2010, 06:22
I actually like 5th edition 40k a lot. There were a lot of problems I had with 3rd and 4th that have been fixed up in 5th and honestly it seems to play a lot smoother.

Ironmonger
13-01-2010, 06:41
As much criticism as I level at GW, I think 5th is the best edition out there so far (the only one I missed was 3rd).

If you want tactics more then army 'builds,' go play a few games of SOTR: plenty of tactics and realism, skinny on uber-lists.;)

harrytheschmuck
13-01-2010, 07:10
me and two other mates, well i guess you would call us power gamers. we all have very powerful lists as we tend to play a lot of tournaments throughout the year. if we were to play a casual list 9 times out of 10 we will win. its true our lists are very very hard to beat but we have also played a lot of 40k with many different army's over the years.

I'm just about finishing a battle waggon list (crys of cheese) but I'm far from the best with it so far. Ive been trying to get as many games under my belt win loose or draw but I'm getting the feel of it the more use it and hopefully better at the same time. people say its not very orky and that a true fluff ork army has over 100 boyz. my reply is; "you feel like painting me 100+ ork boyz? i thought not" Ive finished painting 60 and thats enough for me. also with that, from playing marines i own 2 landraiders that I'm using as battle waggons rather than buy new ones. the whole thing leads me toward a battle waggon list. so I'm doing a battle waggon list.

i do have some sentiment for your post. since my first GT i was bittern by the tournament bug. since then Ive been to loads, even to Poland to play! between tournaments i always seam to be practising for the next and so on. that means I'm using my power list against anyone and everyone. Ive noticed this has been to the detriment of a 4th member of out power gaming group who isn't as competitive as me and the others. so he has moved to playing more warmachie. this is something i feel really bad about as it wasn't our intention.

evidently what sort of lists are you talking about? what is your list in general? how many years have you been playing etc?

MyDiceSuck
13-01-2010, 07:26
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions folks.

In hindsight, some of my OP probably came the frustration of losing to one of my mates again by turn four with his power list. More annoyingly was his constant denial that his list was a power list as he always denies, and the fact he tries to argue that it's a "fun" list. As others have put on here it might be fun for him but it sure as hell isn't fun for me or anyone else who gets bummed by his lists.

Unfortunately the majority of people that I play are tournament or serious players who spend hours on end writing dirty lists and in a nutshell they've destroyed my passion for the game. I absolutely refuse to adopt the attitude of if you can't beat them, join them.

There are still many elements of the codexes that I strongly disagree with but the simple answer is to find like minded players who are in it for fun, as suggested, and not in it to show off their army writing skills. Unfortunately this leaves me with no-one to play against in the meantime. I could continue to play against my mates but I don't see the point as I don't enjoy it and the more I play against them the more angry and fed up I get with power lists.

I think my number one bug bear more than the lists themselves is the denial coming from the players, who will find some way to justify why their list is fair and balanced when it clearly isn't. When you wound 14 Gaunts and only 1 dies because of cover saves and feel no pain then you start saying why do I even bother anymore!

druchii
13-01-2010, 07:54
Generally I'm getting a bit fed up of 40K. It's never been the game that I enjoyed most but I'm enjoying this current edition even less. For me it's reached the point where it's no longer about who is the smartest tactician, or who's the better player, it seems to be about who can write the best army list. Once a hard as nails beardy list has been created then the player using it is almost irrelevant.

I can't tell you the number of times that I've seen Ork and Tyranid armies out numbered by Space Marines or Necrons. Maybe I'm a traditionalist but to me that's plain wrong and completely away from the spirit of the game.

On the whole the new codexes seem to be getting silly. Each new one released is as ridiculously hard to beat as the previous updated one and those already lagging are trailing miserably in their wake. The games developers are coming across as mad scientists hell-bent on creating the next mega-hard unit or character without asking the question should this really be like this? It's as if they'd create a character that could single handedly destroy a 20 strong unit. Instead of sitting back and saying hang on a minute, they seem to high five and say "Sweet!"

The problem for me is that people are more likely then to buy these stupidly hard armies and their win ratios increase but you have to ask is that really down to them as a tactician? Good decisions and bad decisions will always play their part and so will luck with the dice. But I just feel that 40K has become all about power lists.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

Wait a sec, let me get this right:
You're complaining that tough list building is the end all be all to a game like warhammer?

Since when has this NOT been the case? How is this any different from edition to edition? Each edition has its "power lists" and 5th is no different. However those lists in 5th are fairly toned down compared to earlier editions.

More people are NOT inclined to buy these armies. This is simply a false statement with no support whatsoever.

I have actually seen a DECREASE in Seer Councils, Nob Bikers, Dual Lashers, Chimera Hull Spam etc. in my local area once these lists have been dubbed "power lists". Why? People, atleast around here, like to think they win battles, not solely their lists. Maybe it's because of the age group, the length of time we've all played, or the cold weather that makes it this way, I'm not sure.

I think you're daft to think that any new codexes are specifically more powerful than old books. Eldar, Dark Eldar and Witch Hunters (all top or near-top tier armies) compete just as well with Space Wolves, Orks and Demons. In fact, Demons and Space Marines are downright civil armies, with only specific types of guard/orks/Wolves being even close to abusive.

I find that this sort of thinking stems from relatively little social interaction with one's opponent ("hey man, we need to talk about that list you brought last week..."), lack of experience with the game, stubborn refusal to actually tweek lists (you know when new armies and new rules come you, you WILL have to adjust, right?), or downright poor gameplay.

d

EDIT/PS. Fix your dice, that'll fix your issues. Obviously :)

Eulenspiegel
13-01-2010, 08:38
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions folks.

In hindsight, some of my OP probably came the frustration of losing to one of my mates again by turn four with his power list. More annoyingly was his constant denial that his list was a power list as he always denies, and the fact he tries to argue that it's a "fun" list. As others have put on here it might be fun for him but it sure as hell isn't fun for me or anyone else who gets bummed by his lists.

Unfortunately the majority of people that I play are tournament or serious players who spend hours on end writing dirty lists and in a nutshell they've destroyed my passion for the game. I absolutely refuse to adopt the attitude of if you can't beat them, join them.

There are still many elements of the codexes that I strongly disagree with but the simple answer is to find like minded players who are in it for fun, as suggested, and not in it to show off their army writing skills. Unfortunately this leaves me with no-one to play against in the meantime. I could continue to play against my mates but I don't see the point as I don't enjoy it and the more I play against them the more angry and fed up I get with power lists.

I think my number one bug bear more than the lists themselves is the denial coming from the players, who will find some way to justify why their list is fair and balanced when it clearly isn't. When you wound 14 Gaunts and only 1 dies because of cover saves and feel no pain then you start saying why do I even bother anymore!

You really suffer from the wrong playing environment there.

First, your regular opponent friend doesnīt share the same view on "fun" as you.
Second, tournaments really donīt seem to be the right thing for you to participate in.

Is there some other club/LGS in your area? Maybe you should try that out.

EmperorEternalXIX
13-01-2010, 09:10
Unfortunately the majority of people that I play are tournament or serious players who spend hours on end writing dirty lists and in a nutshell they've destroyed my passion for the game. I absolutely refuse to adopt the attitude of if you can't beat them, join them. Better lists is part of being a good player. In essence, all you are doing, is complaining that you refuse to try and be better.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-01-2010, 10:14
In hindsight, some of my OP probably came the frustration of losing to one of my mates again by turn four with his power list.


The best medicine against this frustration is to win against the supposed power list. I am of the opinion that there is a counter to everything. Bringing such counters does not mean you are suddenly playing a force that doesn't fit its background. The background IS fairly open to allow a wide variety of things to exist. Perhaps you stay your hand with your own set of rules how things should be too much. It's hard to say without concrete examples but it sure sounds like it.

Your opponent is in charge of his army. He defines what list and units and combos are fun for him. In your stead, I would try to lay your annoyance to rest and accept this - and then you start to use adequate counters to whatever you find most problematic to deal with on the table. Thinking of this as joining them is IMO the wrong approach. I'm pretty sure that you will find it fun to win against them from time to time, so some degree of flexibility and adaptation to what they bring will be needed. However, that is no different in any other game. Nothing but Halberdiers might be completely in line with the background but will only get you in trouble in Fantasy, impressive codpieces or not.



There are still many elements of the codexes that I strongly disagree with but the simple answer is to find like minded players who are in it for fun, as suggested, and not in it to show off their army writing skills.


Hey, I absolutely love writing lists and thinking about future challenges! There's nothing wrong with enjoying this part of the game. Of course you cannot expect to fight on eyelevel with your mates when you are not willing to put some effort into your list and playstyle.



When you wound 14 Gaunts and only 1 dies because of cover saves and feel no pain then you ...

...bring a Hellhound to kill them all in one fell swoop. There is a counter to everything, and the Hellhound is neither powergaming nor unfluffy.

Doomseer
13-01-2010, 10:15
I do agree with a lot of the OP's frustrations and I found myself feeling the same way toward the end of last year. My problem was with the local scene and the number of near identical lists painted different colours just grinding me down. I wasn't getting beaten I was just getting bored with the same games over and over and people's unwillingness to think outside of the missions in the rule book. I always bring tough but themed armies to the table and have no shortage of opponents but I just had to have a break from 40K.

I decided to get back into fantasy thinking it would be the perfect way to reinvigorate my passion for 40K and it did, but for completely the wrong reasons. Fantasy has some great armies and a good ruleset but when everyone is playing Daemons and Vampires it doesn't take long to get sick of it quickly. Regardless of how well I played and how many mistakes my opponents made, It was hard for them not to at least get a draw. The lengths these players would go to in defending their internet-perfected-game developer-mistake cheesefests was utterly laughable!

How on earth did they work out that Flamers and Flesh Hounds should have 2 wounds for their already rediculous cost is beyond me, not to mention the rest of that entirely dismissable abomination of an army book?!! At least they can say VC's do have some weaknesses!:rolleyes:

Anyway mini-rant over, I'm back playing 40K, I do really like 5th edition and I look forward to the new missions book for the added variety and challenge to a lot of players' tired tactics. My only hope for the future of 40K is that GW hurry up and bring all the armies up to date, it's really unfair on a lot of veteran players who's armies are struggling through the changes and dont have the financial resources to just go out and buy the latest army as GW would like!

the1stpip
13-01-2010, 10:27
I try to create a hard list by building a list that looks hard, and playing it and honing it, but without making certain compromises (only taking one unit of nob bikers, and only sometimes, never taking Ghaz, etc)

I find my lists slowly get harder, but I get better at playing them over time.

squeekenator
13-01-2010, 10:59
When you wound 14 Gaunts and only 1 dies because of cover saves and feel no pain then you start saying why do I even bother anymore!

Ummm...

Well, I'm going to be blunt here. For a start, you getting one set of bad rolls does not mean your opponent is a stinking loophole-abusing powergamer hellbent on ruining everyone else's enjoyment of the game. Your main problem here is that you need to learn to play. From what I've seen, you're complaining that Gaunts with feel no pain = the epitome of broken, and there is absolutely nothing you can do against such fearsome foes. Your profile says your main army is Necrons, and I know that they don't have much that can take out troops entrenched in cover, but why on earth do you care about a brood of gaunts? They will do nothing to you. At all.

Despite my previous post, I was actually on your side in a way. I thought that some poor guy got stomped by Nob Bikerz or some similar powerlist, but apparently not. This is someone using a Tervigon the way it's meant to be used. Tervigons are not broken. They spawn useless Gaunts that can do nothing but distract the enemy. The only good parts about them is that they're damn good at claiming objectives and have nifty psychic powers. Since you didn't complain that a monstrous creature can claim objectives, I highly doubt your opponent used it in this way, and in this case he even wasted its Catalyst. Your opponent used an average unit in a way that wasted all of its useful features, and all you can do is scream "CHEESE!". Yes, you had some unlucky rolls, but there is no reason you should have been shooting the gaunts in the first place. You screwed up, and rather than admit it you're just blaming your opponent.

Thud
13-01-2010, 12:07
Your main problem here is that you need to learn to play.

Perhaps a bit harsh, but I agree. Everything any opponent can throw at you can be countered.

I suggest stopping by the Necron tactica thread or looking up Fritz from Way of Saim-Hann's Necron tactics, he's doing pretty well with them in a very competitive environment.

SimpleSquid
13-01-2010, 12:39
I really enjoy 5th edition. I didn't play 4th as I spent a few years branching out into historicals and other fantasy/sci fi games. I came back to 5th about a year ago and have really enjoyed it, so much so I have 1500pts of Daemons and 2500 of Witch hunters I've collected over the last year.
The game seem balanced, with movement and control of objectives being a much bigger part than in the past.
On the other hand I game with friends who are very relaxed about gaming and just want to push some models around for the fun of it. We are a bit older now and don't care about winning like when we were younger. This has had the effect of making us a bit more loose with the rules, ("8th of an inch out? oh go on charge, its close enough") producing some very fun games that really come down to the last few turns.
I'd rather loose a close game than win on turn 4.