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wilsongrahams
13-01-2010, 10:36
Just a question on whether people have been calling something by one name, only to hear it pronounced differently much later, having maybe not known different before.

My first example here is the tyranids.

When I started in 2nd ed, I read this as Tie-Ran-Ids not Ti-Ran-Ids, because the planet Tyran where they had there name seemed to sound more like Tie-Ran than Tiran, otherwise why not spell it like that?

The other main one that springs to mind is my beloved Primarch Sanguinius, whom until recently has always been San-Jew-Ee-Nee-Us, which I have been corrected should be San-Gyoo-In-Ee-Us. Also for Blood Angels, Dante - rarely called Don-Tay like it should be, and is Dan-Tay by many.

There was also the Librarian type of Codicier, which I had called Co-Dice-Ee-Er, rather than the correct Co-Diss-Ee-Er.

Are there any names that you have always mispronounced due to not having knowledge of intention or greek etc?

Gaius
13-01-2010, 11:04
As far as I know the "correct" (I heard and read various time that it is how it is "officially" supposed to be) prononciation for Tyranids is Tee-ran-eeds, even though I always preferred the "tyran" part like in the word "tyrant".

If you use the latin and greek phonems, Sanguinius should be spelled San-gwee-nyus, and Codicier should be spelled Co-dee-che-ehr, with the "che" spelled like in "Apache".

If you want to have some fun and are on Windows, open the text speech application (my computer -> control panel -> speech) and have it pronounce "Teeraneehds", "Sangweenyus" (even though the accent should be put on the "ee"s, instead of the "u") and "Codeecher" (but with the accend on the "o").

Petay1985
13-01-2010, 11:20
The local vernacular pronunciation and thus what i have come to understand as correct are as follows:
Tyranid - Tee-Ran-Id
Codicier - Co-Diss-Ear
Sanguinius - as in the word Sanguine with an extra 'ee-us' on the end
Dante - Don-Tay, i see this one as having a french ponunciation with an accent on the e.

hope that helps some one, some where! :cool:

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 11:26
Aha! Finally a thread about language! All those years studying languages have finally paid off! :D

Sanguinius is taken from the English adjective/noun "sanguine", which is to do with blood. In U.K English "sanguine" is pronounced "sang - gwin", so Sanguinius is "Sang - gwinny - uss".

In English, Codicier is pronounced "Co - dissy - er" or "Codih-seer". @Gaius: in English "c" is only pronounced "ch" in some names and loan words (e.g. Puccini, cappuccino). Otherwise it is pronounced "s" or "k" (unless followed by "h").

It's important to remember that these GW words were put into circulation by people from the U.K., therefore they are governed by U.K English pronunciation rules.

@wilsongrahams: Dante should not be "Don-Tay". It's an Italian name (see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_(name))) and is therefore "Dan-teh" or "Dan-tay". "Don-tay" is an Americanism* and is confusing French and Italian pronunciation.

Hope this helps! :)

EDIT: Ninja'd!


Dante - Don-Tay, i see this one as having a french ponunciation with an accent on the e.

No this is not correct. See above.


*like latte being pronounced "Laah-tay" instead of the correct "Lattay/Latteh".

Petay1985
13-01-2010, 11:34
@Kriegshimdt; thanks for the clarification, its muchly appreciated :cool:

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 11:36
Hehe, no problem :) I did languages at University, so I sort of jumped on this thread like a frothing madman :D

Gaius
13-01-2010, 11:39
Well, it's not like the country of publication changes the origin of words :) If you want to use the original spelling rules that's how they are; on the other hand if the publishers intended them to be spelled differently (which is entirely possible) then we can only make suppositions. Maybe "Dan-tay" instead of "Dan-teh" is how they intended it (and writing this made my copy of "La Divina Commedia" fell on my head :p ), but then we can hardly know what they meant/wanted, making all our thoughts only conjectures.

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 11:48
Well, it's not like the country of publication changes the origin of words :) If you want to use the original spelling rules that's how they are; on the other hand if the publishers intended them to be spelled differently (which is entirely possible) then we can only make suppositions. Maybe "Dan-tay" instead of "Dan-teh" is how they intended it (and writing this made my copy of "La Divina Commedia" fell on my head :p ), but then we can hardly know what they meant/wanted, making all our thoughts only conjectures.

Your first sentence is correct but not relevant :) Codicier was invented by English speakers as an English language word, therefore it must obey the pronunciation rules of that language, not the rules of its etymology. Otherwise, in English we would still be saying "atmos - fair - eh" instead of "atmos - feer" :)

And no, we cannot be 100% certain but we can be sure beyond reasonable doubt. This is not conjecture because we are applying the pronunciation rules of the language for which these words were invented, which strongly backs up the argument for English pronunciation.

Fletch395
13-01-2010, 12:20
Personally i dont care what people call them aslong as i have a rough idea....i'll fight Canadian Guards and Sangwehnus and Tirrineds

Hybrid
13-01-2010, 12:29
Personally a Tyranid will always be a Tie-Ra-Nid to me and not a Tee-Ra-Nid.

Just as a Tyrant is not a Tee-rant and a Tyranosaurus is not a Tee-Rano-Saw-Rus.

Ph4lanx
13-01-2010, 13:26
And just like Tyranny is not Teer-any... Oh wait ;)

toymaker
13-01-2010, 14:59
I'm so glad someone posted this and been getting conflicting pronunciations from my friends on one of the old standby words: Roboute Guilliman

wilsongrahams
13-01-2010, 15:18
Thanks guys. In fact, I'm sure there are a few of the fancy names of Primarchs (Primarks) that would be clearer with some help from our language experts. I suppose it doesn't help when you want a sound between Don and Dan. I had it right myself when saying it, but wanted to get away from the bluntness of Dan, without being a Don.

Lol @ Canadian Guardsmen...

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 15:33
The Italian name is definitely "Dan....", not somewhere in between.

wilsongrahams
13-01-2010, 15:39
Depends how you pronounce your 'Dan's though. Like Tomaaato Tomayto. Not a great example, as I mean more of a very slight difference like Daaante or Daante or Dante or Dnte. Hope that makes sense. Slightly off tiopic, as long as we know the correct way to say it, I guess I'm going into dialects now, as my friend is from Hull and doesn't eat Toast, she eats Tuurst.

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 15:42
Aye, muurst of 'em do :)

Hunger
13-01-2010, 16:34
Hi all

Been reading ('lurking' at) Warseer for a long time now, always some interesting points of view and good reading here, but on this occasion I felt compelled to post, as I am big on correct pronunciation (teacher, you see). I have been wondering about Roboute Guilliman since I was first introduced to the game many, many years ago.

Rob-Out seems to be a fairly sensible way of pronouncing the first name, therefore thats how I have always said it, though it seems a bit 'broad' in the finesse department.

For the second name, I would expect to say it as Gy-Lee-Man (with a hard G, as in Go), the first I turning the U before it into an Iy sound.

However, looking more closely I see this arrangement of U-I-L-L-I letter pronounced with a Yuh sound in many languages, lending the name (for me at least) a distinctly French sound (such as the French word Caillie, which is pronounced Ky-Yay). Therefore, Gy-Lee-Man becomes Gy-Yuh-Man.

Hmm, that makes sense, but then again what if the G was not a hard sound (as in Go), but a soft G (as in German)? That would change everything, because the U-I-L-L-I would then produce either Jy-Lee-Man or Jy-Yuh-Man.

As far as I am concerned Jy-Lee-Man could fly, but Jy-Yuh-Man just sounds silly. Would you follow a man named Jy-Yuh-Man into battle?

Things are further complicated when I explore the idea that the letters G-U-I-L-L-I could actually produce a unique sound by themselves, best written as Zhwee (check out the French word Guille, pronounced Zhwee-ay, where the Zh sound is that found in Vision or Pleasure). This would produce Zhwee-Man, or possibly Zhwee-Yuh-Man, taking into account the second I.

In the end all this thinking proved too much for me, and I opted to go with the most simplistic and sensible interpretation - and henceforth he is simply known as Rob-Out Gully-Man to me.

scar face
13-01-2010, 16:47
I have always pronounced tyranids tih-ran-ids,

sanguinius: san-gwin-ee-us

and guilliman gilla-man



scar

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 16:59
No, no, no - sorry Hunger, your post is full of mistakes :)


However, looking more closely I see this arrangement of U-I-L-L-I letter pronounced with a Yuh sound in many languages, lending the name (for me at least) a distinctly French sound (such as the French word Caillie, which is pronounced Ky-Yay). Therefore, Gy-Lee-Man becomes Gy-Yuh-Man.

This is incorrect. In French (my degree was in German, French, Dutch, Spanish and smatterings of other European languages), a "u" after a "g" is silent - it is put there to make the "g" hard. This is because in Romance languages (those descended from Latin), a "g" preceding a high vowel is normally soft (high vowels = e, i). So if you are referring to French as a basis for pronouncing this, Guill- would be pronounced "Gee", hard "g".

(or "Gee-yuh" if you're from Paris :D)


As far as I am concerned Jy-Lee-Man could fly, but Jy-Yuh-Man just sounds silly. Would you follow a man named Jy-Yuh-Man into battle?

Made me laugh dude (in a nice way, not a sarcastic way!) :) EDIT: In fact, I'd like to sig it! :)


Things are further complicated when I explore the idea that the letters G-U-I-L-L-I could actually produce a unique sound by themselves, best written as Zhwee (check out the French word Guille, pronounced Zhwee-ay, where the Zh sound is that found in Vision or Pleasure). This would produce Zhwee-Man, or possibly Zhwee-Yuh-Man, taking into account the second I.

There is no French word "Guille" and if there was it would be pronounced "Gee" (hard "g"), see above. I think you are getting confused with "juillet", the French word for "July".


Depends how you pronounce your 'Dan's though. Like Tomaaato Tomayto. Not a great example, as I mean more of a very slight difference like Daaante or Daante or Dante or Dnte. Hope that makes sense. Slightly off tiopic, as long as we know the correct way to say it, I guess I'm going into dialects now, as my friend is from Hull and doesn't eat Toast, she eats Tuurst.

Sorry, I should have been clearer :) Using standard Italian pronunciation, it should be the high vowel [a] in Dante, not a longer, lower "aaa" (as in surprise and alarm :D)

lord_zyplon
13-01-2010, 17:05
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207856


Very long and interesting discussion there. I'm one for Tyranids being pronounced with a long I and not a long E, but to each his own.

Gaius
13-01-2010, 17:18
So if you are referring to French as a basis for pronouncing this, Guill- would be pronounced "Gee", hard "g".

Uhmm I'm not sure about which phonem you're talking about, you mean "gee" as in the letter "g"? It should be a hard g like in the english word "gizmo", or to remain in french "guillotine" or the name "Guillaume" (the french prononciation of Guilliman should be something very similar to windows' speech synth speaking "Gheemah").

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 17:29
Uhmm I'm not sure about which phonem you're talking about, you mean "gee" as in the letter "g"? It should be a hard g like in the english word "gizmo", or to remain in french "guillotine" or the name "Guillaume" (the french prononciation of Guilliman should be something very similar to windows' speech synth speaking "Gheemah").

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying :)

I take it you're from the French-speaking part?

Gaius
13-01-2010, 17:42
Actually I am from the Italian-speaking part, but I know quite a bit of French too (it is mandatory to study the other two national languages during the primary school - unfortunately I am not as good with German :D ).

Chaplain Ark
13-01-2010, 17:49
i believe there was another thread where a large number of people were arguing over this very topic, mainly tyranids. IIRC the consensus was from Greek etymology and normal vernacular, there was really no correct way to pronounce tyranids. Greek etymology stated that it should be pronounced Ti-Ran-Ids similar to Tyrant, while common vernacular stated that it should be pronounced Tee-Ran_Ids similar to tyranny.

I may be bacwards on that, but the consensus was still the same.

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 17:54
I think we should all pretend to be Vic Reeves and say it in a "Shooting Stars" voice:

"Tee RAA-Nids :D

bluenova
13-01-2010, 17:54
However, looking more closely I see this arrangement of U-I-L-L-I letter pronounced with a Yuh sound in many languages, lending the name (for me at least) a distinctly French sound (such as the French word Caillie, which is pronounced Ky-Yay). Therefore, Gy-Lee-Man becomes Gy-Yuh-Man.

I don't know anything about French, but, if this theory was correct, wouldn't Roboute be Ro-boo?

Edit:
I think we should all pretend to be Vic Reeves and say it in a "Shooting Stars" voice:

"Tee RAA-Nids :D

That's brilliant :)

Decius
13-01-2010, 17:59
I'm sure a Catachan and a Cadian have come to blows over "correct pronunciation" when shooting lascannons at Tyranids.

May favourite is still the vile Chaos Marine gene-master named Fabulous Bill.

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 18:01
I don't know anything about French, but, if this theory was correct, wouldn't Roboute be Ro-boo?

Unfortunately Hunger's theories are not correct (I'm trying to be nice and failing! :D). If we use French pronunciation, it would be "Ro-BOOT". The "e" in final position means that the "t" is voiced.


That's brilliant :)

So's West Yorkshire! (I was born in Bradford ;))

Hunger
13-01-2010, 18:23
Oh mon-amie, I never purported to be correct! My French skills are about as good as my water-walking skills!

These are just the (crackpot) theories I have heard from my friends and opponents when discussing this topic.

In any case, I'm sure that Gullyman is incorrect, but thats how the voice in my head reads, and long ago I decided to listen to him over other people.

Has anyone considered rolling the 'R'?

Phaedron2
13-01-2010, 18:48
Just my two cents here, but I've always pronounced Roboute Guilliman as Ro-boot Jewel-iman. Thats the ones my friends and I have accepted as our pronunciation.

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 18:57
may i ask how people pronounce ymgarl?

Gaius
13-01-2010, 19:57
They take a sip of mouthwash and gargle? :D
More seriously, I am not aware of any "real" reference for that name. It does sound like a Scandinavian word, but it's probably completely made up. I'd pronounce it "Eemgarl".

The Ginger Ninja
13-01-2010, 20:11
Dawn of war is your friend, relic actually consulted GW on the pronunciation.
In fire warrior (I think thats another relic game) they pronounce tyranids as "tir-ran-ids"
Feel free to correct me if i am wrong

Kriegschmidt
13-01-2010, 23:28
Actually Ginger Ninja, that's a very good point. You're right - in Dawn of War 2 they say, "TIRRA-nids" (as opposed to "TIE-RA-nids")

EDIT: For Ymgarl I just say "IM-garl", sort of rolls off the tongue.

UselesswizarD
14-01-2010, 00:41
Personally, I've always pronounced "tyranid" in same way that Dawn of War did. I remember that in Dawn of War didn't they also pronounce "daemon" as dai-mon? How do y'all pronounce "daemon"?

polymphus
14-01-2010, 05:36
Kriegschmidt, switch out Spanish for Chinese and I'm in the middle of the exact same degree you've already done. :p I have to say, Guilliman always made me think of the French name Guilleme (sp?) pronounced gee-ohm. My pronunciation was always Row-boot Gee-oh-man.

Kriegschmidt
14-01-2010, 11:21
Personally, I've always pronounced "tyranid" in same way that Dawn of War did. I remember that in Dawn of War didn't they also pronounce "daemon" as dai-mon? How do y'all pronounce "daemon"?

Well I always assumed "daemon" was pronounced "DEE-mun", but a friend of mine always says "DAY-mun". So I looked up daemon in the Collins English dictionary and it says that you can pronounce it either way.


Kriegschmidt, switch out Spanish for Chinese and I'm in the middle of the exact same degree you've already done. :p I have to say, Guilliman always made me think of the French name Guilleme (sp?) pronounced gee-ohm. My pronunciation was always Row-boot Gee-oh-man.

Awesome! Hope you're enjoying it :) Are you doing any linguistics? Morphology? I did quite a lot of Morphology in my final year and found it fascinating - how people unconsciously break down words into morphemes, often getting it wrong - e.g. alcholic becoming alco and holic :D - and create new words using them. Great stuff!

*ahem* Back on topic! It's "Guillaume", I think. Cognate with William, Wilhelm, etc.

I know it sounds horribly snobbish, but I tried to put myself in the shoes of English games designers from Nottingham and decided that they would probably pronounce it, "Ro-BOOT GILLY-mun" :)

Petay1985
14-01-2010, 14:02
I know it sounds horribly snobbish, but I tried to put myself in the shoes of English games designers from Nottingham and decided that they would probably pronounce it, "Ro-BOOT GILLY-mun" :)

if it helps i have an unhealthy mix of Nottingham and Peterborough in me and i would pronounce it Ro-BOOT GILLY-mun exactly as you have surmised :cool:

Kriegschmidt
14-01-2010, 14:36
if it helps i have an unhealthy mix of Nottingham and Peterborough in me and i would pronounce it Ro-BOOT GILLY-mun exactly as you have surmised :cool:

Quite right too! :D Petay1985: as the survivor of Nottingham/Peterborough hybrid-breeding, your word on this is gospel :D

Seriously though, Ro-BOOT GILLY-mun does seem a reasonably-balanced Franco-English way to pronounce it.

Chaplain Ark
14-01-2010, 17:03
i would personally change Gilly-mun to Gilly-man, but this is from probably the only person in existence who lacks any kind of accent. :cries:

Kriegschmidt
14-01-2010, 17:06
i would personally change Gilly-mun to Gilly-man, but this is from probably the only person in existence who lacks any kind of accent. :cries:

Unfortunately mate, phonetics reveals to us that everyone has an accent, whether they like it or not ;)

Chaplain Ark
14-01-2010, 17:16
Unfortunately mate, phonetics reveals to us that everyone has an accent, whether they like it or not ;)

YAY im not alone!:D

Lycannus
14-01-2010, 17:17
Personally a Tyranid will always be a Tie-Ra-Nid to me and not a Tee-Ra-Nid.

Just as a Tyrant is not a Tee-rant and a Tyranosaurus is not a Tee-Rano-Saw-Rus.

Same here, though cause one of my friends insists its the other way round, we just say 'Nids when in each others company.

Hrw-Amen
14-01-2010, 22:38
For me Tyranids have always been Tie-Ra-Nids.

To say Tee-Ra-Nids always makes them sound like something you might call a baby Tyranosaurus if its parents were not about so you had long enough to call it anything.

Having said that I am sure that in any galaxy spanning empire such as the Imperium the way its citizens pronounce it would difer a great deal from world to world,or at least sub-sector to sub-sector.

Not so sure about Marine names as have never been into them too much.

Kriegschmidt
15-01-2010, 10:23
Linguistic analysis of the word "Tyranid", in the English language

Some other, English words of more than one syllable (or a single, closed syllable), where "y" stands in for the first vowel:

-Syllable
-Tryst
-Crypt
-Gypsy
-Mystery
-Tyrant
-Rhythm
-Rhyme
-Byte
-Cycle/ist
-Cyclical
-Hysteria (also hysterical)
-Hysterectomy
-Psyche
-Psychology/ist/ical
-Tryptophan
-Lymph
-Lysergic
-Lyric/al
-Lyricist
-Physical
-Physicist

What a variety! It seems clear that there is no phonetic rule which governs the pronunciation of the "y". It is important to bear in mind that in English, pronunciation is governed more by etymology* than by orthography**. This is due to the many languages which have fed into the English we speak today. Therefore, in order to find the correct pronunciation we have two choices:

-ask the people who invented the word (it's a "made-up" name and therefore the inventors have the final say)
-look at the etymology

Unfortunately, asking the inventors is not an easy task, therefore the most sensible thing to do is to look at the etymology. Fortunately, Games Workshop very kindly gave us the etymology of "Tyranid": it stems from the word "Tyran", the name of the planet on which the Tyranids were first encountered.

But how do we pronounce "Tyran"? Well, since there is no further etymology of "Tyran" available, we have two choices:

-ask the inventors (again, not realistic)
-apply English orthography rules (there is no etymology, so orthography applies)

Looking at the selection of words above, there is no clear rule on how the "y" in an open syllable should be pronounced (open syllable = one not ending in a consonant). Sometimes it is the diphthong /aI/ (as in "Tyrant"), sometimes it is the short /I/ (as in "physical). So in the absence of etymology or an orthographical rule this leaves us with one more option:

-look at orthographically similar English words.

The only close examples I can think of:

-Tyrant
-Tyrannical
-Tyrannosaurus
-Tyre

In all four cases, the "y" is pronounced as the long /aI/, although "Tyrannical" and "Tyrannosaurus" sometimes get pronounced both ways.

So to conclude: having eliminated the etymology of "Tyranid", the etymology of "Tyran" and English orthography applying to these words, I must conclude that in both "Tyran" and "Tyranid", the "y" should correctly be pronounced /aI/, like the "ie" in "pork PIE".

But then we meet the conundrum: languages are changed by the speakers over time, often due to error in usage, as words get passed around, mispronounced, etc. and the misprounciation becomes common usage. Therefore, regardless of the etymology or orthographical rules, if the majority of speakers say "Tirran" and "Tirranid", that will become the correct pronuncation!

This is the great irony of language: rules are created to govern spelling and pronunciation, then speakers change things over time and the rules have to change to adapt!

*throws hat on floor* :D

So you have two choices really: either accept my conclusion above, based on orthographically similar English words, or find out how the majority of speakers pronounce it.

(Choice 3 is of course to shout "What a load of codswallop!" and go back to the Rumours forum :D)

*etymology = history of words, how their meaning/form change over time
**orthography = how words are written

Petay1985
15-01-2010, 10:41
@Kriegschmidt, i really do feel like i'm in a language degree lecture now, and i'm actually facinated! - and i thought an Architectural Conservation degree was enough for me, lol.

How about the 40k word Arbite- how 'should' i say that? i say Aaar-Bite (as in scream of pain followed by a word associated with eating) :cool:

Kriegschmidt
15-01-2010, 11:15
How about the 40k word Arbite- how 'should' i say that? i say Aaar-Bite (as in scream of pain followed by a word associated with eating) :cool:

Sod off! My brain still hurts from "Tyran/Tyranid"! :p;)

Joking aside: the only examples of English words I can think of which have the same root ("arbit-"), all have more than two syllables, and the second syllable is open (e.g. "AAH-bih-treh-ree"). And in all these cases, in U.K. English it's pronounced ['a:bI] ("AAH-bih"). On the basis of this, I would pronounce "Arbites" as ['a:bIti:z] ("AAH-bih-teez").

But your question was about the (probably) two-syllable word "Arbite". The only example I can think of with two syllables is the German word, "Arbeit" (meaning "work"). Note that the second syllable is closed and the vowel is a dyphthong([aI]). In Hochdeutsch ("standard" German, like "Queen's English"), the word is pronounced ['a:baIt] ("AAH-bite").

The root of Arbeit is the Proto-Germanic "arbaiži". So we can see that the pronunciation of the part in question has remained the same: [a:baI] ("AAH-bye").

So I would say ['a:baIt] ("AAH-bite") but ['a:bIti:z] ("AHH-bih-teez").

GW should pay me for this.... :D

Daniel36
15-01-2010, 11:27
My fave is definitely Catachan.

Is it Cat-At-Chan, or Cat-Ack-An? I always used the latter, while I believe it is supposed to be the first.

And even though I am an English teacher, and therefore should know better, I do believe I always mispronounce Basilisk, going for a "Bay" sound instead of (the correct) "Beh" as in "Bed". It just doesn't sound right in my ear...

Oh, and if you ask me (backed up by Kriegschmidt's wonderful explanation), I do believe it should be the following:
- Tyran - "Tie-Ran" - as in Tyrant
- Tyranid - Tir-Ran-Id" - as in Tyranny

Like he said, it has more to do with the history and how the language evolved, rather than how it is written. It goes the other way around as well. We have the words son and sun, which funnily enough are pronounced exactly the same while written differently. All this is, however, the case with a lot of languages, not just English...

But English is a difficult language for many because of that.

Petay1985
15-01-2010, 11:30
@Kriegschmidt - i'm sticking with screaming and eating them; Aahhh-Bite! Arbite = simples!

perhaps you should write a book / guide on 40k pronunciation!! lol :cool:

Kriegschmidt
15-01-2010, 11:39
And even though I am an English teacher, and therefore should know better, I do believe I always mispronounce Basilisk, going for a "Bay" sound instead of (the correct) "Beh" as in "Bed". It just doesn't sound right in my ear...

Neither is correct. The correct pronunciation is /'bazIlIsk/ ("BAH-zih-lisk"), i.e. like the "ba" in "bat". This should help:

bed = bɛd
baby = 'bɛIbi:
bat = bat
basilisk = 'bazIlIsk

And I'm not going anywhere near Catachan!!! :p

EDIT: Oh bugger it, why not :)

Ok, we have little by way of reference points in English, because Catachan is such an alien word. We can look at "Catacombs" and "Cataclysm".... but neither of these have an "h" after the second "c".

So I think the only solution (apart from "what do most people say"), is to assume that the GW people had at least a basic understanding of Earthly orthography and applied that to creating the word. So let's analyse it in itself.

Fortunately, both "c"s in the word are followed by the same vowel: "a". But in one case there is an "h" between the "c" and the "a". It is safe to assume that the "h" after the second "c" is there to denote a difference in either the "c" preceding it or the "a" following it. Unfortunately my knowledge of Earthly languages is limited. But in all the examples I can think of (especially English, the native tongue of the GW people who created the word), the "h" is there to denote a change in the consonant before it, not in the vowel after it. So therefore it's reasonable to assume that the first "c" in Catachan and the second "c" should not be pronounced the same way.

If you take English as a reference point: when it comes to a "c" at the beginning of a syllable, English follows the same rules as the Romance languages, i.e. the "c" is hard before a low vowel ("a" is a low vowel). So it is reasonable to assume that the first "c" is pronounced "k".

So how to pronounce the second "c"? Well, assuming that it needs to be different from the first, we have 4 options:

-"s"
-"sh"
-"ch"
-[x] (like the "ch" in the Scottish word "Loch" and the German word "Bach")

But how to choose from these? At this point I would ask myself who GW expected to read this word, and I think it's safe to assume that they considered that the target group would include children. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the pronunciation of the word should be fairly transparent. I feel that this rules out "s" and [x], since there no or few reference points in English for "ch" being pronounced this way.

So in my book that narrows it down to either "sh" or "ch". Given the argument in the paragraph above, I think "ch" seems most likely. So I say, "KAH-tah-chan", where each "a" is said like the "a" in "bat" (in Queen's English).

Please, please, please, make it stop... growing weak.... :p

Bloodknight
15-01-2010, 11:41
But your question was about the (probably) two-syllable word "Arbite". The only example I can think of with two syllables is the German word, "Arbeit" (meaning "work"). Note that the second syllable is closed and the vowel is a dyphthong([aI]). In Hochdeutsch ("standard" German, like "Queen's English"), the word is pronounced ['a:baIt] ("AAH-bite").

I am sorry to sort of disagree here, but Arbite isn't a 40K term, Arbites is, however. Your conclusion that it is pronounced ['a:bIti:z] is correct though, for the English pronunciation of Latin words. In the German way of pronunciating Latin it would be ['a:bItes] (incorrect e; should be either the thing that looks like a small epsilon or a schwa).

The root however is IMHO not the proto-germanic (dangerous thing, that proto-germanic) arbaiži for "work" (thank God for copy&paste, I hate typing nonstandard symbols. I really should learn SAMPA ;)), but the Latin word Arbiter (Judge) from arbitrari (to watch); I'd have to look up the etymology of that one, of course, but it's closer on the temporal axis.

Kriegschmidt
15-01-2010, 11:59
The root however is IMHO not the proto-germanic (dangerous thing, that proto-germanic) arbaiži for "work" (thank God for copy&paste, I hate typing nonstandard symbols. I really should learn SAMPA ;)), but the Latin word Arbiter (Judge) from arbitrari (to watch); I'd have to look up the etymology of that one, of course, but it's closer on the temporal axis.

I agree totally, Arbite doesn't exist in 40k and the Latin root should be followed for "Arbites". I just sort of went into "receive word, analyse it and give it back" mode ;)

EDIT:


@Kriegschmidt - i'm sticking with screaming and eating them; Aahhh-Bite! Arbite = simples!

That's what I said, but as Bloodknight correctly points out, that word doesn't exist in 40k. "Arbites" exists, and he and I agree on the pronunciation of that.


perhaps you should write a book / guide on 40k pronunciation!! lol :cool:

Perhaps Bloodknight and I could collaborate...?

Petay1985
15-01-2010, 12:12
I agree totally, Arbite doesn't exist in 40k and the Latin root should be followed for "Arbites". I just sort of went into "receive word, analyse it and give it back" mode ;)

That's what I said, but as Bloodknight correctly points out, that word doesn't exist in 40k. "Arbites" exists, and he and I agree on the pronunciation of that.

Apologies gentlemen, i am the route of this mistake!

So in language that i can understand, sounds and phonetics would be ace, how should i say : ['a:bIti:z] lol :cool:

Bloodknight
15-01-2010, 12:16
aah-bi (like in bit)-teez. Why oh why can't English spelling be coherent with the sounds*? We should all speak and write Turkish...



"KAH-tah-chan", where each "a" is said like the "a" in "bat" (in Queen's English).

KAH-tah-tshan would be my guess for the correct pronunciation. Same thing, just different spelling. (I -probably mis- :) pronounce it usually as ['kata:xan] due to my mother tongue)

*little linguistic riddle: how would you pronounce the made-up word GHOTI in English? (If you know the answer because you already know the riddle, please refrain from posting it right away)

Kriegschmidt
15-01-2010, 12:49
aah-bi (like in bit)-teez. Why oh why can't English spelling be coherent with the sounds*? We should all speak and write Turkish...

Totally dude. Turkish was used by my Linguistics professor as an example to back up pretty much every item of morphology we learned! :D


*little linguistic riddle: how would you pronounce the made-up word GHOTI in English? (If you know the answer because you already know the riddle, please refrain from posting it right away)

Pott! Err, no wait.... :D

This riddle went around our school playground :)

Bloodknight
15-01-2010, 12:55
That's because the Turkish had the great opportunity of starting from scratch when they switched from Arabic script to Latin script less than 100 years ago. In 200 years they'll be just as screwed as the English speaking world ^^. Language change ho!.


This riddle went around our school playground

Really? Awww.

Kriegschmidt
15-01-2010, 12:59
That's because the Turkish had the great opportunity of starting from scratch when they switched from Arabic script to Latin script less than 100 years ago. In 200 years they'll be just as screwed as the English speaking world ^^. Language change ho!.

A German person suggesting that Turks are backward? Interesting.... (mwahahahahaaa :p)

Politically incorrect joking aside, their morphology I hope will not get screwed - it's really quite special.

Your knowledge of language far exceeds mine. Would you be interested in possibly collaborating on producing a Games Workshop lexicon document, with probable pronunciations? We could submit it to games Workshop HQ ;)

Bloodknight
15-01-2010, 13:13
A German person suggesting that Turks are backward?

Not at all. They used a pretty advanced approach and did it well, I think.
I doubt the morphology will change a that much; stuff like that tends to stick around, especially in an agglutinating language like theirs (not an inflectional like the germanic languages, for example (would be difficult to mark cases and genera if you dropped the markers that you put into the words instead of inflectional affixes...).


Your knowledge of language far exceeds mine.

Not sure about that, but I like dabbling in stuff.


Would you be interested in possibly collaborating on producing a Games Workshop lexicon document, with probable pronunciations?

Unless you're talking about a tight deadline, I'd love to be one of Warseer's resident 40K linguists ;)

Kriegschmidt
15-01-2010, 14:37
Unless you're talking about a tight deadline, I'd love to be one of Warseer's resident 40K linguists ;)

Woo yeah! *ahem* I mean, how satisfying. The potential for lexical enlightenment from such a cooperational endeavour is highly motivational :D

And what does agglutinating mean?

(I have a gluten intolerance.... :D)

OneMeanDuck
15-01-2010, 14:44
Ok here are some words to play around with that I have heard 10 different pronounciations... iyanden, yriel, and a bunch of other eldar names

Kriegschmidt
15-01-2010, 14:54
I'm outta here.... (my brain couldn't take the strain!!) :D

Bloodknight
15-01-2010, 16:35
Looks like garbled Irish (or a similar language like Gaelic or Welsh) to me, but I'm not familiar with the pronunciation of these :(

wilsongrahams
15-01-2010, 19:40
I'll just say what I THINK is the correct intentional pronounciations.

Iyanden - Ee-Yan-Don (kinda between Den and Don on this one I think).

Yriel -(I-Ree-Ell or Ee-Ree-Ell - you choose.)

As for Arbite - as pointed out, a single member from the Adeptus Arbites is an Arbiter which is pronounced Ar-Bitter rather than Ar-Biter as in gnawing on one's arm...

Thanks for all the help on languages guys, this has been a lot of fun for me! I love learning and improving in any way that I can. Yes, I loved school! Lol. Some of the French and Greek words, especially Latin were never my strong point so your knowledge has helped a lot.

Kriegschmidt
18-01-2010, 14:25
Hehe, yeah until you meet Jervis and he starts talking about "Sah-TAR-shan jungle fighters".... :D

LonelyPath
18-01-2010, 17:05
Ok here are some words to play around with that I have heard 10 different pronounciations... iyanden, yriel, and a bunch of other eldar names

If it's based on Cymraeg (Welsh) or Gaelic (Irish) then they'd likely be something akin to

Iyanden: eye-yuh-an-den (Cymraeg) or eye-yan-dun (Gaelic)
Yriel: I-rhee-ell (the I like the I in "shrill") for Cymraeg or ee-ree-ull for Gaelic

In Welsh Y is often pronounced as a hard I if it's the first teller or a word. However, that is not the standard for all pronunciations of the letter Y, as Cymraeg (Welsh) is pronounced "kuh-m-wry-g" with a hard k, m and g whilst Cymry as "kuh-m-ree". the "Cym" is also sometimes prnounced as Ko-m (think of the "oo" in "took" or "cook" but slightly shortened) depending on the dialect of the language being spoken in that region.

Both Gaelic and Cymraeg are confusing languages to outsiders, not only for how they are written, but that they each have their own unique alphabets (Gaelic is based on the same spawning Celtic language, but deviated from Q Celtic to P Celtic even while still on the British mainland) and are impossible to learn how to pronounce without hearing them for yourself (for Cymraeg, think of Klingon with all the gutteral throat clearing sounds left in as they should be, lol).

The Breton language also chares strong ties with Cymraeg as it also originate from Q Celtic, but has mutated in a different direction over the past 2000 years since those peoples left Britain.

bossfearless
18-01-2010, 18:08
I got so annoyed by peoples' pronunciation of C'tan that I had to go look up the etymology of the word. Seriously, some of the pronunciations people came up with just aren't anything similar to to a real language.

C'tan->Cthon->Cthonic->Ktonos (greek) Pronouned "ktohn"

The word refers to a type of deity in ancient greek mythology that is described as existing within the earth. Not underground, but kind of suffused throughout the earth itself. The word invokes a sense of abundance, as well as the grave.

Sounds pretty much like the C'tan of 40k to me.

Max1mum
20-01-2010, 13:02
how about .... : ...Tzeentch ? (a)

...I have no idea behind the actual rules of the English language...

considering i learned it from Watching Star Trek ( all of the series ;-) ...*( don't tell my girlfriend ....(a) :P ) and cartoon network :D.

But this is really quite educational :D ;-)..i am actually going to subscribe to this thread and you guys are going to become English Tutors :D

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 13:06
Tzeentch is a word that is always up in protest. I was told to pronounce it T-zee-n-sh (with a soft T) when I spoke with Rick priestley many years ago, but people I know who've spoken to him since have heard various pronunciations including that one from him. However, the one I was told is the most common they're heard from him.

Kriegschmidt
20-01-2010, 13:20
Tzeentch is a word that is always up in protest. I was told to pronounce it T-zee-n-sh (with a soft T) when I spoke with Rick priestley many years ago, but people I know who've spoken to him since have heard various pronunciations including that one from him. However, the one I was told is the most common they're heard from him.

I certainly say "T-zeen-ch", rather like you. It seems more logical than the "Zench" I heard from a GW store manager once.... (I think his name was "Stev".... :D)

Max1mum
20-01-2010, 14:00
I'm with you guys on this one then :P i was just curious what would happen to the word if a scientific aproach was taken ;-)

Kriegschmidt
20-01-2010, 14:04
That is an interesting question. Not enough to make me try and analyse it though :p

(maybe tomorrow...)

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 16:45
I certainly say "T-zeen-ch", rather like you. It seems more logical than the "Zench" I heard from a GW store manager once.... (I think his name was "Stev".... :D)

Glad to see I'm not alone in pronouncing it that way. And a GW store manager said it that way? Good thing I'm sitting down or I might've fallen over. GW store managers never seem to agree with me over things like that, hahaha.

Chaplain Ark
20-01-2010, 17:48
GW workers have a uncanny ability to pronounce every word different from the way i pronounce it. im pretty sure if the conversation came, we would be arguing over the pronunciation of "apple"!!!!!

wilsongrahams
20-01-2010, 18:59
Apple - Ay-P-Yule. Lol - not really, I'm only kidding.

I also say T-Zeen-Ch. Was thinking over several names etc in the Mechanicum Novel too, though I have decided not to go into them, except for one.

Horus Lupercal - the nickname bit of Lupercal I'm interested in not the Horus.

Loop-Er-Kal.
Lup-Er Sal. etc, what do you think? I went with the top one. Maybe you have another.

Kriegschmidt
20-01-2010, 19:40
Horus Lupercal - the nickname bit of Lupercal I'm interested in not the Horus.

Loop-Er-Kal.
Lup-Er Sal. etc, what do you think? I went with the top one. Maybe you have another.

Well the "Luper" refers to Wolves and comes from the Latin root lupus. So let's apply Romance* language rules to the letter c in -cal. That would make it a hard "k" sound.

Alternatively we could do a quick web search, which would yield this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupercal Since in this instance the "Luper-" comes from the Latin "Lupa" (LOO-pa) for she-wolf, it's reasonable to assume that the emphasis stays the same in "Lupercal", i.e.:

"LOO-per-KAL"

Looking a bit further (http://www.yourdictionary.com/lupercal) backs this up, by showing that the emphasis is as shown above. Seems safe to assume that GW adopted this pronunciation along with the word.

*those languages developed directly from Latin (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.)