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Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 14:10
GW has been rather kind to me and has sent out a copy of the codex early and I must say I am rather impressed. i havent had much of a chance to read it cover to cover but it looks like a good book. Here are my first impressions:

Decent background section. Covers the background for the 3 main hive fleets and introduces a few new ones: nada, gorgan andjormungandr as well as the ghorala swarm. About 30 pages in total which isnt too bad.

On to the rules,

Hive tyrant looks OK. The entry has a few too many rules as with a few other entries but its a soldi entry.
Tyrant Guard look alright as well.
Tyranid Warriors. Warriors with wings are called Tyranid Strike whilst the Alpha Warrior is actually called a Tyranid Prime, Alpha Wariror is its special rule.
Raveners are another sound entry. They do not have the flamer template weapon rumoured. The Red Terror is mentioned here and apparently its never been reported since it leaves no survivors.
Hormagaunts will miss their 12" attack. Hive Fleet Hydra is mentioned here
Termangaunts wil be popular again though i doubt spike rifles and stranglewebs will get used, but im glad they were brought back. Im disappointed Spike rifles are absolutley rubbish now
Genestealers arent as good as they were as some of their options have gone so many of those head options are useless now
Lictors cannot assault when coming on from reserve but overall are better
Gargoyles dont have fleet of wing anymore which is a shame
Harpies can only drop spore mines once per game. Doesn't look such a good option though it looks cool from the picture
Zoanthropes are so much better now. Everything has already been said about these
Venomthropes are a bit poor though the spore cloud might come in useful
Poor old carnifex, still a destructive thing but they coudl have done so much more
Hive Guard ahve already been talked to death. 24" range isn't brilliant but they still have their uses against light tanks.
Biovores and Pyrovores will not get used however spore mine clusters are good for deployment denial.
trygon looks impressive and i think the prime upgrade will be worth it, better range, more shots, synpase, shadow in the warp and higher leadership
Mawloc dont seem as good as I hoped and I cannot seemm to see where they swallow models. The s6 ap2 large blast makes up for that
Tervigon looks good though dont keep your termagant swamrs within 6", ouch
Tyrannofex looks odd, a massive cannon coming out its chin. Possible best at anti-infantry as it only has 2 s10 attacks
mycetic spores look really good, lash whip tentacles and a few other weapon option makes it a good choice
Ripper swarms look fun. Rippers with wings ar enow called sky slasher swarms and you can also get tunnel swarms (deep strike swamrs)
Swarmlord looks impressive, ws9. Im certainly interested in building one
Old One Eye is back and isnt too bad. Gets an extra attack every time it hits so could potentially have 16 attacks on the charge
Doom of Malan'tai can die to a sinlge lascannon but its cataclysm attack can be powerful. I would have liked if it ahd warp lance and warp blast.
Deathleaper has a load of fun special rules; "It's after me" will help against pskers. Improved rending is alright
Parasite of mortrex is one of my favourites. A flying ravener which turns models into ripper swarms, return fo the "The Sarge is acting strangely..." rule. Fail a toughness test and out pops d6 ripper swarms
Ymgarl genestealers are Ok, not brilliant
Psychic Powers for the hive tyrant aren't very good tbh though leech essence and one of the others are valid
Tervigon powers are all very useful. Im interested to know if onslauhgt lets you move, run athen shoot or is it just move, shoot and run. broodlord powers are good though i'd prefer it to have power weapon attacks

Artwork is as you'd expect. Some interesting variants. Nothing more i can really say.

Weapons and biomorphs are much more extensive now. i'd much prefer the old system.

Overall impression not bad though I'm yet to make a list with it. Each FOC section covers two pages so there is plenty of choice though some optins ar ebetter than others I dont like the weapon entries but i think thats my only complaint at this point

Lord Solar Plexus
13-01-2010, 14:26
After reading this, I'm going to sell my army on ebay.


Oh wait, I don't have a Tyranid army... :)

SPYDER68
13-01-2010, 14:29
This codex is gonna have me starting Tyranids :p

I very much enjoy what they have done to them so far and what im going to be able to do..

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 14:32
TBh I cannot see myself expanding my army that much. I was going to get some gargoyles but i mgiht give them a miss and now all i might add is some mroe warirors and raveners

Dark Primus
13-01-2010, 14:38
Lol I do have enough Tyranid models to make a small army but I am going to sell them since I traded for them when I actually didn't want them. Should I start a nid army of my own then I would prefer to build it from scratch.

AFnord
13-01-2010, 14:46
Tyranids seem to be a real synergy army. While most of their troops are, on their own, not that impressive, there are also a lot of units with special rules that support other units in some way. I for one am looking forward to this new release.

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 14:50
There are a few really good combos like spore mines and the parasite. Force untis to outflank becausr the deployment zone is hot and then hope that you get a few ripper swarms.

Michael M.
13-01-2010, 15:11
Last SA i got the chance to try out the new īdex and i must say it was very funny. The new īnids are powerful but not overpowered army. In fact i enjoyed it so much, that i searched for the few īnid i had have bought some years ago and start to build up a small īnid army.

SPYDER68
13-01-2010, 15:37
The loss in flesh hooks on stealers has made me sad indeed, makes hiding in the trees a very effective tactic against them

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 15:44
The demise of stealer shock and the traditional nidzilla will be mourned .

i think I'm goignt o add a squad fo 5 deathspitter warriors and some gaunts fo some flav our and take out a carnifex. Im actually thinking the Godfex and keep the barbed stranger one as although its wepaons are weaker it is more effective in CC.

I'll be waiting to see hwo FW change their rules as I mgiht pick up a malanthrope later.

Having done a list Im a lot mroe impressed with the book. the transision has been too bad and there is some great potential for expanding my armies

SPYDER68
13-01-2010, 15:47
if anything, warriors are one of the lower choices in the book.

I still see stealers alot more effective then them.

Stealer shock can still be here, expecially with reserve bonus.

Hive tyrant with +1 reserves
Death Leaper with +1

then depending on above choices

5x 10man stealer squads
6 hive guard
Elite stealer squad
3x Trygon.

50+ stealers outflanking and showing up on a 2+ 2nd turn with the biggens popping right in front of somone can still be scary.

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 15:56
Certainly, that'll be a good lsit to play, I owudl especially add the broodlord, thoguh psychic circus isnt as strong now its still good. One thing is that thats 4 elite squads. Deathleaper is elite not HQ (woudl ahve made a nice HQ choice)

I'm adding the warirors and gauntd ebcause thats the models I already have its jsut a case that they have never been used. Alternatively I mgiht add in some spore mines jsut for a laugh. In the future I will add some genestelaers and outflank almost everything

SPYDER68
13-01-2010, 15:58
Certainly, that'll be a good lsit to play, I owudl especially add the broodlord, thoguh psychic circus isnt as strong now its still good. One thing is that thats 4 elite squads. Deathleaper is elite not HQ (woudl ahve made a nice HQ choice)

I'm adding the warirors and gauntd ebcause thats the models I already have its jsut a case that they have never been used. Alternatively I mgiht add in some spore mines jsut for a laugh. In the future I will add some genestelaers and outflank almost everything

the Death leper and amount of elites all depends on if you want +1 or +2 and drop a squad of hive guard.

Either way, it looks fun.

Vepr
13-01-2010, 16:04
if anything, warriors are one of the lower choices in the book.

I still see stealers alot more effective then them.

Stealer shock can still be here, expecially with reserve bonus.

Hive tyrant with +1 reserves
Death Leaper with +1

then depending on above choices

5x 10man stealer squads
6 hive guard
Elite stealer squad
3x Trygon.

50+ stealers outflanking and showing up on a 2+ 2nd turn with the biggens popping right in front of somone can still be scary.

Might want to toss in a few Zoans for heavy vehicles.

SPYDER68
13-01-2010, 16:07
I dunno, i dont really like zoans, they are to easy to counter, the only heavy vehicle thats a problem is the land raider, everything else is rear armor 10 or 11.

But then again.. sending trygons at a raider probly wont be that effective.

naloth
13-01-2010, 16:16
Right I've just had a look at my old list which came in at around 1522. (Oops i need to trim something) and with the new codex it comes in at 1398 despite having three carnifex in it.

What was your old -> new list? Mine was more expensive (biggest increases to 2 HS fex, 2 ninjafex, 1 winged tyrant, and warriors).

Vepr
13-01-2010, 16:40
My opinion of the new codex is that is not bad but I would not call it good either due to balance issues. It was a fairly big change which is in itself not a bad thing and was probably needed but it has left me rather ambivalent about the new nids. I have been trying to get as many test games in as I can and I have had some fun with things like the death leaper and doom but I still don't know if I like the feel of the army over all.

SPYDER68
13-01-2010, 16:43
Its not bad, and i think the new nids will be competetive to handle the other armies.

Commander Zane
13-01-2010, 17:03
whats the point cost for gaunts (both termi and horm) and what rules/upgrades can they have they got?

my plan is a trygon prime, a few synapes in there, mawlocs, gaunts, couple of fexs, gargoyles and what ever else jumps at me

the_picto
13-01-2010, 17:21
Tell me if I'm making rules up here, but does charging a pinned unit make any difference to initiative bonuses/penalties for cover? Seems like it should, but I can't remember if I'm imaging it. If it does, do nids have much pinning stuff to help offset the lack of grenades?

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 18:41
What was your old -> new list? Mine was more expensive (biggest increases to 2 HS fex, 2 ninjafex, 1 winged tyrant, and warriors).

Seems like I've made a mistake, mine has also gone more expensive, if only by a little bit The main expense is in the hive tyrant and its guard along with the carnifex

Old List
Hive Tyrant, both adrenal gland, enhanced senses, toxin sacs, toxic miasma, scythgin talons, venom cannon and psychic scream 180pts
3 Tyrant guard 135pts
Broodlord, 7 genestealers, flesh hooks 192pts

8 Genestealers, scuttlers, scything talons, extended carapce 216pts
8 genestealers, scuttlers, feeder tendrils, 160pts

3 Zoanthropes, warp blast, psychic scream 195pts
Carnifex, 2* scything talons, tusked 111pts
Carnifex, barbed strangler, devourers, enhanced senses, spine banks 128pts
Carnifex, both adrenal glands, extended carapace, toxic miasma, tusked, scythgin talons and venom cannon 181pts

Total 1498pts

New list:

Hive Tyrant, venom cannon, hive commander 220pts
3 Tyrant guard 180pts

3 Zoanthropes 180pts

7 Genestealers, Broodlord with talons 146pts
8 Genestealers, scything talons 128pts
8 Genestealers, 112pts

Carnifex, 160pts
Carnifex, venom cannon, adrenal glands 195pts
Carnifex, strangthorn cannon, devourers, 195pts

Right then, I withdraw my support for the codex. My hive tyrant has gone up 18% while my carnifex have gone up by 29% and tbh I dont think I'm gettign anythgin back in return. The only armies that will benefit from beign cheaper are those that contain gargoyles and raveners, funny that isnt it

WinglessVT2
13-01-2010, 20:30
At one point in time, being pinned reduced you to initiative 1, but that's no longer the case.

How can two strength 10 ranged shots ever be considered 'only?'

Vepr
13-01-2010, 20:51
At one point in time, being pinned reduced you to initiative 1, but that's no longer the case.

How can two strength 10 ranged shots ever be considered 'only?'

It is not a template and it is BS3 and is not lance or AP 1 either if I remember right. It is not useless but is also not that great on a platform that costs more than a landraider. It would seem you would be better off with multiple broods of Zoans podded in.

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 21:00
its only 2 shots that will miss ahlf the time while the the shot that hits will fail to pentrate a land raider 2/3s of the time. The tyrannofex is seriously messed up. Its desribed as a massive monster that exists purely for destruction yet its anti-tank options are the s10 shots. Its anti-infatry options are much more useful, a 20 shot boltgun or a hellhound shot plus a short range heavy bolter and a nice template.

edit ninj'd

I've found teh reason why I've never liked the Deathleaper, its the eyes, they shodul not have pupils. That aside, in the stealer shock list posted before, the death leaper doesnt add that much to the list compared to the lictor. yes it has some funky rules like reducing units movement through cover, rending on a 5+ and an extra A but apart from reducing a single model Ld by D3 (which woudl only be worth taking against a psker heavy army) it doesnt add any more synergy to the list that a standar dlictor. So save those 75 pts and get a lictor instead.

triplare
13-01-2010, 21:39
Right then, I withdraw my support for the codex.

An 18 point increase to an old army roster and you withdraw your support? You're a hard man to please, lol! I hope you find some other lists you like and field so you might find the bugs a better gaming experience in the future.

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 21:55
An 18 point increase to an old army roster and you withdraw your support? You're a hard man to please, lol! I hope you find some other lists you like and field so you might find the bugs a better gaming experience in the future.

its not only an 18pt increase but also a questionable decrease in ability. Its too early to tell whether this book is good but based simply on the models I have available to meI prefer the old one. I'm already thinking of a few changes i'd like to try out and more importantly for me some modelling opportunities. First thing will be my two warrior primes and a Parasite mor Mortrex then maybe a harpy or a tervigon. I do like this list but my intial though of "OMG my list is so much cheaper, I can now add x,y and z" has been repleaced with Oh, I guess they're not worth it, Im gonna ahve to buy x,y and z to replace this and that" (which is good for GW as they'll get their hands on my money.) Im afraid that my nids might get shelved for a while whilst a kill my old nidzilla and build a new one with trygons instead of carnifexs

the_picto
13-01-2010, 22:42
At one point in time, being pinned reduced you to initiative 1, but that's no longer the case.


Since my last comment I've had a chance to look at my rule book. Charging enemies who have gone to ground (pinning is involuntary going to ground) means you don't suffer the initiative penalty.

Of course, now you're all going to say nids have no useful pinning weapons and that pinning sucks anyway. Do they still have LD reducing powers?

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 23:53
they do ahve some Ld reducing powers though they arent passive powers liek they were before. A broodlrod can use the aura of despair to lower ld by 1 for all enemy units within 12" which is cumulative with other broodlords while the Deathleaper cna lower the ld of a signle character by d3. Devourers cause morale tests to be taken at -1 if the enemy unit suffers a casualty. im afraid the psychic circus jsut sint as good as it once was. ld tests on -5 with multiple barbed strangers was the way to go.

ObiWan
13-01-2010, 23:57
Yes, the BL and the Deathleaper have some nice LD-reducing powers that I remember top of mind

Edit: Ninja'd!

Abaddonshand
14-01-2010, 00:48
Since my last comment I've had a chance to look at my rule book. Charging enemies who have gone to ground (pinning is involuntary going to ground) means you don't suffer the initiative penalty.

Of course, now you're all going to say nids have no useful pinning weapons and that pinning sucks anyway. Do they still have LD reducing powers?

Pinning weapons in the new nid codex;
- barbed strangler
- biovores (barrage weapon)
- devourers (both types)
- strangleweb
- stranglethorn cannon

Erazmus_M_Wattle
14-01-2010, 01:05
I had a good ol' read of the book today. I have to say on first impressions I like it a lot. It seams to be an interesting list with lots of colour and character. I am glad we now have a list which is no longer a swarm of mindless near identical creatures.

I am somewhat disappointed that there are no characters that allow you to alter the troop choices. I would like an all flying list but unless you're playing Planet-strike It doesn't look possible. Flying hive tyrants should at least have allowed shrikes or gargoyles as troops. Never mind though.

The list is much fuller than before so I don't think we'll see so many identical lists out there.

Vepr
14-01-2010, 01:12
I had a good ol' read of the book today. I have to say on first impressions I like it a lot. It seams to be an interesting list with lots of colour and character. I am glad we now have a list which is no longer a swarm of mindless near identical creatures.

I am somewhat disappointed that there are no characters that allow you to alter the troop choices. I would like an all flying list but unless you're playing Planet-strike It doesn't look possible. Flying hive tyrants should at least have allowed shrikes or gargoyles as troops. Never mind though.

The list is much fuller than before so I don't think we'll see so many identical lists out there.

I think we are going to see the base of most lists being Trygon/Mawloc, Tervigon, Hive Guard, Zoans, Prime Warrior and then termigants. Even casual gamers gravitate towards what works.

Warpcrafter
14-01-2010, 02:53
I'm going to try and sell my Orks army, to augment my currently anemic hobby budget. The possibilities presented by the Tyranids are too tempting.

Commander Zane
14-01-2010, 04:37
I'm going to try and sell my Orks army, to augment my currently anemic hobby budget. The possibilities presented by the Tyranids are too tempting.


that they are my money straped friend, like myself and a fellow guard player said, where buyin nids to better understand nids tactis for our guard lol.

iv always loved nids, but i stopped buyin and playin them when everyone started using nid zilla, if your gona play nids at least swarms them:D:evilgrin:!!!!

its the only true way to play nids IMO but thats just me :p

hellhammer6
14-01-2010, 04:56
<<edit>> yeah i'm probably over reacting

After studying the new nids codex... i hate it.

Other than improving zoanthropes, everything in the codex has been seriously nerfed and IMHO will NEVER be competitive. (except maybe 'ardboys)

I guess selling it all on ebay is my only answer.

The daka tyrant with guard is now over 400+ points.
Almost nothing has an invo save.
Genestealers have no grenades option so they are totally worthless.
Carnifex are too points expensive to ever be competitive.
Warriors are amazing but too overpriced, at 50+ points per model and with BS3 and move very slowly... I mean VERY slowly.... (no eternal warrior... totally worthless.)
Everything in the codex except gaunts are overpriced.
- and gaunts are T3 so are effectively worthless.
Seems like trygons will be decent, but how can they make up for the rest of this immobile crap?!!!???!!!
If you play new tyranids, have fun losing almost every game.

Tyranids were my first army and I love the story but 'gotta say... Once they are playtested, I believe GW is going to lose a lot of money for this mistake.

The ideas were good but the points are WAY overcosted. /fail!!!!
MAJOR sad face...

Vepr
14-01-2010, 05:01
After studying the new nids codex... i hate it.

Other than improving zoanthropes, everything in the codex has been seriously nerfed and IMHO will NEVER be competitive. (except maybe 'ardboys)

I guess selling it all on ebay is my only answer.

The daka tyrant with guard is now over 400+ points.
Almost nothing has an invo save.
Genestealers have no grenades option so they are totally worthless.
Carnifex are too points expensive to ever be competitive.
Warriors are amazing but too overpriced, at 50+ points per model and with BS3 and move very slowly... I mean VERY slowly.... (no eternal warrior... totally worthless.)
Everything in the codex except gaunts are overpriced.
- and gaunts are T3 so are effectively worthless.
Seems like trygons will be decent, but how can they make up for the rest of this immobile crap?!!!???!!!
If you play new tyranids, have fun losing almost every game.

Tyranids were my first army and I love the story but 'gotta say... Once they are playtested, I believe GW is going to lose a lot of money for this mistake.

The ideas were good but the points are WAY overcosted. /fail!!!!
MAJOR sad face...

I am not that doom and gloom but from early play testing this codex does seem to be a lot weaker than IG and SW. One big problem is that all the point decreases we got on the smaller bugs is eaten up and then some by the huge point increases by the big stuff. I am not ready to say the codex is bad without some more playing but I don't think it is good either and appears right now to be the weakest 5th edition codex so far.

Vineas
14-01-2010, 05:20
I think we are going to see the base of most lists being Trygon/Mawloc, Tervigon, Hive Guard, Zoans, Prime Warrior and then termigants. Even casual gamers gravitate towards what works.

Thank God I'm not most players or I'd have a boring army too.

I'm going to run Tyrant and 2 Guard, Alpha warrior, 24 spinegaunts, 20 hormogaunts, brood of 16 stealers with talons, toxin and BL, brood of 10 (alpha is going to lead that brood), brood of 3 lictors, deathleaper, brood of 2 screamer-killers, mawloc, 4 raveners.

It's in the neighborhood of 2500pts

Vepr
14-01-2010, 05:28
Thank God I'm not most players or I'd have a boring army too.

I'm going to run Tyrant and 2 Guard, Alpha warrior, 24 spinegaunts, 20 hormogaunts, brood of 16 stealers with talons, toxin and BL, brood of 10 (alpha is going to lead that brood), brood of 3 lictors, deathleaper, brood of 2 screamer-killers, mawloc, 4 raveners.

It's in the neighborhood of 2500pts

That is almost apoc were I game we generally play around 1500 to 1750. Plus what makes an exciting and interesting army is up to each player of course but exciting and effective do not always go hand in hand. Some people play for fluff, some for competition and others just to roll dice and BS with friends. To each their own but one persons "exciting" lists is another persons "boring" list.

CushionRide
14-01-2010, 05:28
im gonna have a hard time deworming my brain from the old codex. the only gripe i have with the new dex is that they dont have all the weps and biomorphs in one area. i hate seeing "see page ###" it pisses me off soooooo much. and the nid dex has alot of that. aside from that

<-------------------- APROVES OF THIS CODEX 110% ^_^

Vepr
14-01-2010, 05:30
im gonna have a hard time deworming my brain from the old codex. the only gripe i have with the new dex is that they dont have all the weps and biomorphs in one area. i hate seeing "see page ###" it pisses me off soooooo much. and the nid dex has alot of that. aside from that

<-------------------- APROVES OF THIS CODEX 110% ^_^

Yeah I think that has been a complaint of a lot of the new codices. It is kind of a pain.

AFnord
14-01-2010, 05:36
The daka tyrant with guard is now over 400+ points.
Almost nothing has an invo save.
Genestealers have no grenades option so they are totally worthless.
Carnifex are too points expensive to ever be competitive.
Warriors are amazing but too overpriced, at 50+ points per model and with BS3 and move very slowly... I mean VERY slowly.... (no eternal warrior... totally worthless.)
Everything in the codex except gaunts are overpriced.
- and gaunts are T3 so are effectively worthless.
Seems like trygons will be decent, but how can they make up for the rest of this immobile crap?!!!???!!!
If you play new tyranids, have fun losing almost every game.

Tyranid warriors don't cost 50+, unless you upgrade them to death, and seriously, in what army has that ever been a good idea? Most beginners will spend too many points on upgrades, but expect the average warrior to cost 35-40 points each+possibly 1 heavy weapon.
Dakkatyrants+guards might not be the way to go. Tyrants themselves bring a lot of utility to the table, and are not too shabby on their own.
Genestealers can still outflank, which makes them very useful against more stationary armies, and can be a threat to anything that stays too close to the table edge. No grenades is a bummer tough.
While some things seem to be overpriced, hardly everything is. Tyrant guards, zoantropes, tervigorns, tyrants, alpha warriors, venomtropes (at least I don't think they seem THAT bad, the are basically KFFs that give defensive grenades for a slightly lower point cost, but the lack of vehicles makes them less useful than KFFs), warriors, raveners, flying rippers, gargoyls, trygons & mawlocks all seem to be priced about right. Cant say for sure before I playtest any of it, and remember, simply reading a codex does not mean that you know how it will work. Remember how "overpowered" space wolves were, pre codex release? Or IG? Or the new space marines? Remember how the units that people thought would be overepowered turned out not to be, while many of the units that looked a bit "meh" turned out to be rather good?

ghoulio
14-01-2010, 06:14
After studying the new nids codex... i hate it.

Other than improving zoanthropes, everything in the codex has been seriously nerfed and IMHO will NEVER be competitive. (except maybe 'ardboys)

I guess selling it all on ebay is my only answer.

The daka tyrant with guard is now over 400+ points.
Almost nothing has an invo save.
Genestealers have no grenades option so they are totally worthless.
Carnifex are too points expensive to ever be competitive.
Warriors are amazing but too overpriced, at 50+ points per model and with BS3 and move very slowly... I mean VERY slowly.... (no eternal warrior... totally worthless.)
Everything in the codex except gaunts are overpriced.
- and gaunts are T3 so are effectively worthless.
Seems like trygons will be decent, but how can they make up for the rest of this immobile crap?!!!???!!!
If you play new tyranids, have fun losing almost every game.

Tyranids were my first army and I love the story but 'gotta say... Once they are playtested, I believe GW is going to lose a lot of money for this mistake.

The ideas were good but the points are WAY overcosted. /fail!!!!
MAJOR sad face...

I think there is just a wee bit too much Doom and Gloom and Knee Jerking in this post. I am going to be using this book and I intend on being competitive. I have been playing nids since 2nd ed and I win far more games then I lose, and I dont see that changing. You just have to adapt to the new book and figure out how to make competitive lists with it.

That being said I think there are some issues that are apparent even when just glancing over the stats:
- The Hive Tyrant is overcosted in my opinion, ESPECIALLY the winged version. If the Hive Tyrant had a 4+ or even a 5+ inulvn save then I would be more then happy dishing out the many extra points to use him.
- Carnifexs are also over costed. If they came with Bio-Plasma for free, or were 15-20pts less then I wouldnt mind. It is also really bothers me that they are WS 3, there is no reason they shouldnt be WS 4.
- After thinking about it any of the even remotely CC oriented MC's should be WS 4 (the Mawloch and Harpy specifically). Not being WS 4 will really hurt all three of those options big time.
- The Venomthrope. I think this is actually the worst thought out unit in the book. There are just so many issues with these guys. For starters they are so damn easy to kill, and since they offer such a huge bonus to your army there is no reason you wouldnt be shooting them first. The other issue in my mind is they share the single most competitive FOC spot on the roster, elites.
- The Pyrovore. I just wish this guys had more interesting rules. Like maybe having a hell hound type attack or something. I also wish they were Str 5, T5, something that fits in between warriors and MCs.

All that considered I am still really excited to try out the new book and really play around with the lists :)

LKHERO
14-01-2010, 07:29
In case anyone knows, does Choose of the Slain work on Lictors or Death Leapers?

Vineas
14-01-2010, 07:38
That is almost apoc were I game we generally play around 1500 to 1750. Plus what makes an exciting and interesting army is up to each player of course but exciting and effective do not always go hand in hand. Some people play for fluff, some for competition and others just to roll dice and BS with friends. To each their own but one persons "exciting" lists is another persons "boring" list.

2 of the 4 players in my group love their 2500's. We play normal FOC. They just like being able to field 15 termies, some vanguard, a pimped command squad, one guy normally runs vulkan and some assault marines.

They find games under 2k to be "boring".

Our Apoc games come in around 8K-9K points per side (and only one of the IG players has a baneblade and he has only 1, the rest is just normal units).

I like the smaller games but I build around 2500 as that is the norm for us.

Darkmatyr
14-01-2010, 07:57
Having been given the chance to play the new codex only a few days ago and read over it for a good 2hours, I say the new codex, though bugged in a few rules/choices (Mawloc, Spinegants, Pyrovore etc) is not a disappointment.
10x Stealers and a Broodlord is cheaper than alot of the old builds used for 8 Stealers and no Broodlord. Not to mention, the Broodlord can easily turn a battle in your favour, denying that nasty powerfist/power weapon the chance to strike, or increasing the chances of causing an enemy to run and be cut down.

I even tried my old list with the new rules and found I had almost 50 points left to spare even with the new MC prices. (balanced list 2 fexes, 1 flyrant 1250pts)

Vineas
14-01-2010, 08:07
Yeah, the BL lost power weapon but his ability to weaken the morale of non-MEQ's is huge. 1 pt can mean the difference between a squad fleeing or sticking around (though to be honest the squads who will suffer the most from it (tau, IG) have no chance in hell against a BL and even a min. sized brood of 'stealers, and his ability to shut down a powerfist or power weapon will go a long ways toward ensuring you win combats (combine it with DL's ability to lower an IC's leadership and go character hunting). Would love to see Lysander outwit a BL with a Ld of 7 vs the BL's Ld of 10. So long as the BL rolls at least a 3 Lysander isn't doing anything but standing around while he gets pounded on, turn after turn. :)

Zanzibarthefirst
14-01-2010, 11:32
After studying the new nids codex... i hate it.

Other than improving zoanthropes, everything in the codex has been seriously nerfed and IMHO will NEVER be competitive. (except maybe 'ardboys)

I guess selling it all on ebay is my only answer.

The daka tyrant with guard is now over 400+ points.
Almost nothing has an invo save.
Genestealers have no grenades option so they are totally worthless.
Carnifex are too points expensive to ever be competitive.
Warriors are amazing but too overpriced, at 50+ points per model and with BS3 and move very slowly... I mean VERY slowly.... (no eternal warrior... totally worthless.)
Everything in the codex except gaunts are overpriced.
- and gaunts are T3 so are effectively worthless.
Seems like trygons will be decent, but how can they make up for the rest of this immobile crap?!!!???!!!
If you play new tyranids, have fun losing almost every game.

Tyranids were my first army and I love the story but 'gotta say... Once they are playtested, I believe GW is going to lose a lot of money for this mistake.

The ideas were good but the points are WAY overcosted. /fail!!!!
MAJOR sad face...

I would agree with a lot fot he sentiments in this post, which is a shame really, they really went too far when nerfing the army. i feel that if they too 10pts of the big things then it woudl ahve been fairly costed. 60pts for a tyrant guard is far to much and 160 for the basic carnifex is jsut askign fro trouble. Like I've said before, the only competitive units and fairly priced ones I see are those that were released in plastic. It seems that GW has lost allsense of external balance

naloth
14-01-2010, 13:30
While I would have made different choices about the roles of a few units my main complaint is that this codex isn't really on the same power level as the other 5e codex releases especially IG and SW.

TheShadowCow
14-01-2010, 13:55
While I would have made different choices about the roles of a few units my main complaint is that this codex isn't really on the same power level as the other 5e codex releases especially IG and SW.

Except we hhaven't seen it interracting with those other armies properly yet, so we cannot really call the power level of the Tyranid list.

Vaktathi
14-01-2010, 13:58
Tyranid warriors don't cost 50+, unless you upgrade them to death, and seriously, in what army has that ever been a good idea? Most beginners will spend too many points on upgrades, but expect the average warrior to cost 35-40 points each+possibly 1 heavy weapon. The most popular build, to my eyes at least, will be toxin sacs+boneswords (meaning wounding 75% of the time against T3/4 opponents with no armor saves) and that puts them at 45pts right there.

Narf
14-01-2010, 14:05
ok, i dont play nids, but here goes based solely on what has been said here.

Your all moaning about your MC's being nerfed, or costing to much or that they cant shoot/hit fot toffee.

Your MC's are there to support your army, not be the army, to me a well balanced nid army would be 1-4 MC's, 4-12 warriors and then c**p loads of troops etc at 2000 points

What i think GW is trying to get you guys to do is yes buy things you havent bought before, but also make you see that the nids function as a horde and if all you take is the horde support your not gonna get very much bang for your buck, but if you take horde and support them with your MC's etc then your opponent has a bad choice.

Now as i said at the start i dont own the codex, nor do i play nids, but to me that seems to be the major idea recenlty, your basics are what win you games, everything else is support, get the basics right and your support will do just fine and cripple your opponent, get your basics wrong and your toast

naloth
14-01-2010, 14:44
ok, i dont play nids, but here goes based solely on what has been said here.

I suggest you play an army before trying to offer opinions for the play style.

Most of the things that went down in cost were never taken. Likewise most of the things that were commonly taken were both drastically increased in cost and nerfed as well.



Your MC's are there to support your army, not be the army, to me a well balanced nid army would be 1-4 MC's, 4-12 warriors and then c**p loads of troops etc at 2000 points

That's not a competitive army. The "c**p" loads of critters have IG stats at IG trooper costs. Many armies just roll over them in CC especially when "No Retreat" is in effect. Would you expect IG to be competitive if they left the tanks, special, and heavy weapons at home? Worse, the best anti-tank troops have is a S6 weapon that you can only get per 3 warriors that also has a -1 to the dmg chart.

The only way to get decent ranged weapons in 4e was on MCs. That's somewhat changed with the new Zoanthropes and Hive Guard which I suspect will be the anti-tank for the 5e 'nid army.

The CC situation is somewhat mixed as 5e 'nids have better CC provided you can get your opponent out of cover. Otherwise, you're losing your I advantage on troops that are somewhat fragile.


The most popular build, to my eyes at least, will be toxin sacs+boneswords (meaning wounding 75% of the time against T3/4 opponents with no armor saves) and that puts them at 45pts right there.
Certainly at least boneswords. Without those, 5e warriors are a lot like the not-to-popular 3e warriors.

kaimarion
14-01-2010, 14:49
I still don't see nids as a horde army the only decent gaunt like models are the gargoyles both termagants and hormagaunts are pretty meh and stealers are too expensive to be used as a horde. Personally I'd like to run nids as a horde army it's just my orks can do it better so I'am not going to waste my money on gaunt models. One thing that makes me happy about the new dex is that I can finally field my biovores and they will actually be useful which is great because I love both the old and new model :D.

After reading the new dex myself I've had to change my army completely which is a pain but at least I'll still be able field a nidzilla force even though it won't be as effective as it used to.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-01-2010, 15:15
ok, i dont play nids, but here goes based solely on what has been said here.


I agree, to some extent. I don't think it would be great if GW limited the way an army plays to one single style, and they haven't done that with the last dexes.



That's not a competitive army. The "c**p" loads of critters have IG stats at IG trooper costs. Many armies just roll over them in CC especially when "No Retreat" is in effect.


Hmm. I realize that Fearless is sometimes not as good as stubborn but I have gotten very good results with those IG stats simply by saying "Freeze!". And that works even against Bloodcrushers or their ilk.



Would you expect IG to be competitive if they left the tanks, special, and heavy weapons at home?


To be fair, he wrote 1-4 MC's and a couple of Warriors, and I don't think he'd throw a fit if you included or swapped some of that for Zoanthropes or whatnot, so there's your tanks and weapons.

IG tanks - MBT's - went considerably up in cost as well. They will often cost more than even a new Fex - and yet they still can be neutralized with a single shot or attack.

Max Jet
14-01-2010, 15:55
O.k. Now that I had the chance to work my way through the Codex I have to say, although the Power level seems to be o.k. Rather than underpowered, I cannot hide my feeling, that this Codex was really poorly tested and not worked through before being printed.
Right now there are just too many Questions I have, going along with quite an amount of headscratching.
Here is my list of things I don't understand at all.

Synapse:
One can surely understand why they put away the Eternal Warrior protection, (although more on that later) but what I absolutely don't understand is why Synapse actually doesn't help most of the time. For Hormagaunts expecially it is much better to actually charge OUTSIDE of the Synapse range. They are just as fast, and take less casualties on the way. Same goes for other troops with low Leadership and less protection.
Only affecting moral test, that means the leadership based tests from the last Codex are gone.. er... why?
Synapse for shooting Creatures. So I have to look for the next cover that is in range and shoot at my oponent. But if there is no cover, from where I can shoot at the oponent? Happens a lot with a mere 12“ range.

Weapons:
So can I use the Lash Whip and the Scything talons in one go? Everything indicates it, except for the actual rules...No wording in the entire Codex.
Crushing Claws. Initiative one for ALL attacks or only the D3? Why do they cost almost 30 points?

Hyve Tyrant
I can choose two powers for free. There are two exceptional strong powers and two exceptional weak powers. They could have at least buffed the range for the moral affecting powers.
The Horror costs 25 points? Something I got for free last time which only worked in every fourth game and if I remember correctly once against Eldar and a couple of times against Imperial guard.... wait... wait.. I take that one back it does make sense.
Wings.. 12 4th edition Spinegaunts. For a deep strike that can go wrong. Yes. Right.

Hyve Guard
Why are these cheaper than the Tyrant guard?

Hormagaunts
Why would anyone take these rather than a Gargoyle? Why do they have the same price? Gargoyles can do everything better and their Adrenalin glands and Toxin sacs are even cheaper. So where is the point in taking Hormagaunts, objective babysitting will still be done by Termagants and Tervigons.

Tyranid Warrior
Why 3 Wounds T4 instead 2 Wounds T5?
Who would take Spinefists instead of Devourers?


Termegants
Why is the Spinefist more expensive than the Fleshborer?
Why did they loose fleet?
Why is there no without number mechanic?
Why is the Maximum unit size only 30?

Ymgarl Symbionts
Does Everyone realise they are striking at Initiative 1 in every game on every first charge they make? Does everyone realize They have no chance to override that?

Lictor
So he cannot charge out of cover, but he can deploy savely with his +1 cover save (didn't it used to be +2?) and his one little Flesh hook Hit. That will surely keep him save from any fire of the squad he wishes to attack.. next turn that is. Makes a LOT of sense. He is a homing beacon, that can be taken from the table extremely easily.. a rather expensive one. Didn't they want to IMPROVE him?

Harpy
A Hyve Tyrant costing model that can be instantkilled with a Krak Missile or one single melta hit.

Venomthrope
Now I realize he does help the unit a lot but most of the time he has only a 5+ cover save, on occassions perhaps 4+.. with T4.. Two wounds that is.. I understand the synergy but what use is it, if he doesn't live past 2 Turns?

Carnifex
Why is he still in the Codex? Everyone can replace him and still be more powerful or cheaper. The greatest headscratch in the entire Codex. Why does he has the possibility to go in a squad when people will not use even a single one in the near future.

Pyrovore
Er.. where is the sense in taking this one? Why put all the money and design work into a new creature, that is ugly, senseless and underpowered?

Trygon
So I can put an infantry unit, bunched together behind him, that will sit there a whole turn and be shot at. Okay..

Mawlock
Why take him rather than a Trygon?
Why does the design team play him (and calculate his costs) as if he could jump right at the enemy, but the rules forbid this?

Tyrannofex
So he costs almost 300 points with his one hit strength 10 weapon. I can buy almost two Mawlocks fir his point costs, one will definately reach the Tank I am trying to kill and destroy him more quickly than his Capsule cannon will.

Drop Spores
Costs more than drop pods in the Marine Codex, doesn't carry as effective troops and can be killed more easily by both anti Infantry and anti vehicle weponds, while not leaving a wreck, that helps me. I guess these were made only for Zoanthropes as I can't see any other unit that couldn't enter via deepstrike much cheaper and shoot after leaving the Spore.

Old one eye
See Carnifex

Doom of Malantai
Here is the question.. can he attack units inside a transport?

Flesh hooks
Why has almost no one the possibility to take these? Most races do get attack grenades for free these days.

Ranged weapons
Up to 3 entries for almost exactly the same weapon
Venom Cannon. The use is now?


And finally the big money question.

Units that got a lot more worse or got replaced
Spinegaunts
Devourer Tyrants
Carnifices

Units I have seen most of the time being used
Spinegaunts
Genestealers
Tyrants
Carnifices

Units that seem to be good choices
Tervigons
Raveners
Trygon/Mawlock
Gargoyles
Zoanthropes
Hyve Guard
Hyve Tyrant

Units getting new models
Raveners
Trygon/Mawlock
Gargoyles
Hyve Guard

Units being extremely expensive (money wise)
Raveners
Tyrants
Zoanthropes

naloth
14-01-2010, 16:00
IG tanks - MBT's - went considerably up in cost as well. They will often cost more than even a new Fex - and yet they still can be neutralized with a single shot or attack.

The Leman Russ is 150 with a move and fire battle cannon and equipped to make a SM player beg for mercy from the template horror at 190 points. A 'fex isn't available for 150 or well equipped for 190.

While it's true that any vehicle can be killed from one hit, it's equally true AV is immune to a large range of weapons and heavily resistant to weapons that will almost always cause a wound to a 'fex. It's more likely that a plasma (S7 AP2) shot will fail to hurt the weakest transports of the game (4+ glance, 5+ penetrate) and have a higher chance to wound a 'fex (3+, no save). MBTs are mostly immune such weapons unless you manage to somehow target the rear (major screw-up by the opponent).

At a range, which is where a tank with a massive cannon is most useful, MBTs like the Leman Russ are much more resilient to ranged fire than MCs. It's not unlikely that 10 missile launchers shots will bounce off a LR leaving it completely unharmed whereas they would smoke a 'fex.

Vepr
14-01-2010, 16:20
It almost seems like the internal balance on this codex is worse than the last.

Max Jet
14-01-2010, 16:27
This is the new Dark Eldar Codex with better models and less Effectivity

Skyth
14-01-2010, 16:42
I quit 40k when 5th came around. The new Tyranid codex does not even give me an inkling of wanting to come back. I am particularly annoyed that one of the most common 'fex configurations is no longer legal.

ObiWan
14-01-2010, 19:29
I've played since 3rd Ed. tyranids, I am not happy about some points in the new codex, but I hardly think it is the end of the world, playing with the new codex and making different lists may prove refreshing from seeing -almost- only nidzilla lists.

3 0f 6
14-01-2010, 19:48
I do ponder why in a Troop reliant (for objective taking) game there are 5 troop choices and 8 elite choices. Though I am of the idea that I will win a game by wiping out the opposing army rather than holding back a tiny troop unit to claim a win.

I am happy to see that I can now take a monstrous creature in all sections of the army list, and that troops choice tervigons are troops.... therefore scoring!

Freman Bloodglaive
14-01-2010, 20:08
GW make their games in order to sell models.

By nerfing models that players already have, and making models they wouldn't have taken before more attractive, they sell more models (probably to newbies).

Marines are better inasmuch as a new coat of paint will turn "Dark Angels" into "Space Marines" without having to buy new models.

Vepr
14-01-2010, 20:24
GW make their games in order to sell models.

By nerfing models that players already have, and making models they wouldn't have taken before more attractive, they sell more models (probably to newbies).

Marines are better inasmuch as a new coat of paint will turn "Dark Angels" into "Space Marines" without having to buy new models.

I agree this definitely seems to be the case with the Carnifex and Trygon. Still not sure what is up with the Pyrovore. I think they must have only made a couple dozen of the models and don't want to run out. :p

Zanzibarthefirst
14-01-2010, 22:25
I agree this definitely seems to be the case with the Carnifex and Trygon. Still not sure what is up with the Pyrovore. I think they must have only made a couple dozen of the models and don't want to run out. :p

I've mentioned it a few times and it certainly is a clever ploy byt GW to promote new models which begs the quesiton, why didnt GW make plastic SW wolf cavalry. Since they are one fo the most powerful unit, a box of 3 for £27 woudl ahve make GW a ton of money. Poeple arent that stupi and buy a ship load of Canis but they will buy a ship load of "27 boxsets of what possibly one fo the ebst units in the SW codex. GW seem to ahve got it mostly right here by making the trygon plastic and one fot he best units in the codex

rexydon
14-01-2010, 23:36
Got a qustion am i the only one a little peeved with the changes made to the biomorphs. Like scaything talons no long give +1 attack but lets you re roll all 1 to hit?

Vaktathi
14-01-2010, 23:39
Got a qustion am i the only one a little peeved with the changes made to the biomorphs. Like scaything talons no long give +1 attack but lets you re roll all 1 to hit?

Most of those bonuses are built into the models already. Hence why Warriors for instance have 3A instead of 2A base, plus the ability to reroll 1's.

Zanzibarthefirst
14-01-2010, 23:56
As the bonus has already been included, scything talons has possibly been effected in the most positive way. Take the carnifex for example, the old screamer killer had 4 attacks normally, 2 basic plus two for 2 for scythignt alons. Now it has 4 attacks basic but rerolls failed missed (although im not sure if that ability is worth the 50pts increase) The ravener has really benefitted fomr this and it so much better than its old 4th edition counterpart

Vepr
15-01-2010, 00:13
As the bonus has already been included, scything talons has possibly been effected in the most positive way. Take the carnifex for example, the old screamer killer had 4 attacks normally, 2 basic plus two for 2 for scythignt alons. Now it has 4 attacks basic but rerolls failed missed (although im not sure if that ability is worth the 50pts increase) The ravener has really benefitted fomr this and it so much better than its old 4th edition counterpart

It definitely helps the fex against vehicles. I just wish they had made it a little easier for them to catch vehicles. At their new cost they could have at least given them fleet.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-01-2010, 00:20
It definitely helps the fex against vehicles. I just wish they had made it a little easier for them to catch vehicles. At their new cost they could have at least given them fleet.

They are better then they were but they are certainly paying for it. Maybe podding a carnifex with claws and regen might mean they coudl actually get in combat with a tank. You have a turn to kill this carnifex or you tank gets eaten. Give me a squad of zoanthropes instead

Vepr
15-01-2010, 00:29
They are better then they were but they are certainly paying for it. Maybe podding a carnifex with claws and regen might mean they coudl actually get in combat with a tank. You have a turn to kill this carnifex or you tank gets eaten. Give me a squad of zoanthropes instead

Yeah. That is the problem. Every time I try to come up with a use for the fex there is another unit that is more effective for the points waving at me in the background. I have been trying them as CC but the points are just better spent elsewhere. They are not half bad as gun platforms but the cost vs performance is just not there other than maybe the dakka fex but man is it expensive now. I do think that the fex needed a price bump I just think they bumped it about 25 points to much. And some of the biomorphs like crushing claws make my head hurt.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-01-2010, 00:57
Yeah. That is the problem. Every time I try to come up with a use for the fex there is another unit that is more effective for the points waving at me in the background. I have been trying them as CC but the points are just better spent elsewhere. They are not half bad as gun platforms but the cost vs performance is just not there other than maybe the dakka fex but man is it expensive now. I do think that the fex needed a price bump I just think they bumped it about 25 points to much. And some of the biomorphs like crushing claws make my head hurt.

I really really REALLY want to amke my old nidzilla list work but I simply cannot. If the carnifex was 150pts, Hive Tyrants 160pts and Tyrant Guard 50pts I would jump for joy, I really would. Zoanthropes should be about 70pts at least

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 01:00
Play 2k games, and you can make a 'nidzilla' army.
It simply won't be as awful for your opponent to deal with now, though.

At least you got to keep using your models, unlike us former chaos players.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-01-2010, 01:06
Chaos players cannot complain about their sonic dreadnaughts anymore, FW fixed that one for you

At 2kpts the old Nidzilla will be quite poor. You'll generally be faced large Nob Biker squads, TH/SS squads etc... which amke Nidzilla cry

Lets all face facts, anyone with a Nidzilla will no longer want to play Nidzilla. Now I need about £150 to build me a new army.

CapnBob
15-01-2010, 01:16
Nidzilla didn't go anywhere. It'll just be trygons and tervigons now instead of tyrants and carnifexes. Actually, you might still see some tyrants too. Hell, a 2,000 point list could easily have 9 MCs in it... 3 tervigons, 3 small gaunt squads, a tyrant or a trygon prime, 3 screamer killer fexes, and two more regular trygons. You could replace the 3 fexes with another trygon or a tyrannofex and have plenty of points left over to add upgrades. 5th edition just changed the flavor of the cheese.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-01-2010, 01:19
I've mentioned it a few times and it certainly is a clever ploy byt GW to promote new models which begs the quesiton, why didnt GW make plastic SW wolf cavalry. Since they are one fo the most powerful unit, a box of 3 for £27 woudl ahve make GW a ton of money. Poeple arent that stupi and buy a ship load of Canis but they will buy a ship load of "27 boxsets of what possibly one fo the ebst units in the SW codex. GW seem to ahve got it mostly right here by making the trygon plastic and one fot he best units in the codex

Second wave, later in the year.

To be honest I hate the idea of Marines riding wolves...

We're barbaric, but not that barbaric.

[Imperial Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals ISPCA]

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 01:20
No one plays forgeworld here, because the rules aren't thought-through, and just there for fun.

I didn't play a legion - I played an army of mind-raped former loyalists, horribly mutaded and ill-equipped, herded before my lord Ramiel, mounted upon his land raider chariot - a true fallen dark angel, with the robes and all, plus a retinue of 4 chosen.

That was my entire army: meat.

It was there to be cool, not to win games. The land raider and funky krew cost over 900 points. Yes, I'm serious - 900 points for five dudes in a land raider.

We also had a thousand son player. You know, back when they sucked?
Yeah, we had one of those.
The way his army got owned by GW wasn't pleasant at all, and his terminators are now neither 10,000 year veterans with psychic powers, or rubric marines.
They're just...terminators. Terminator that cannot be thousand sons' terminators, because there's no option to bring that back, or play a legion at all.

Last game, he brought out Ahriman, but it sure didn't seem like he enjoyed playing the army that match.

Back to tyranids-
If you head to the store, there's going to be a giant pile of 'battle for macragge'-boxes stacked everywhere, usually with decreased prices, too.
Each of these gives you ten tactical marines, a ton of terrain, old rulebook, at least 12 gaunts with guns, and two units of 6 genestealers each, I think.

I really don't understand why you'd want to play nidzilla. You have tons of options available to you now. Use them instead.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-01-2010, 01:22
thats the problem, the traditional nidzilla (tyrants and carnifex) has been replaced with Tervigon and Trygons

You have always had options, you jsut haven't always have valid options.

TBH, it was always my intention to create a mid-sized army, wariros and raveners hwoever that vtakes time and money of which I have little of for latter so i was hoping I could get good useage out of my old army.

Geep
15-01-2010, 01:34
Is this the first edition change for most Tyranid players posting on here?
There are always changes when new books come out- sometimes minor, sometimes drastic. Tyranids have kept all of their previous models and gained many more. Even if the power levels of each of them have changed at least they can still be used*. Most people should still be able to field a half decent tyranid list from what they used to have.

*I do feel sorry for people who glued a sniperfex together though- plastic/ plastic bonds are damn tough...

CapnBob
15-01-2010, 02:23
Is this the first edition change for most Tyranid players posting on here?
There are always changes when new books come out- sometimes minor, sometimes drastic. Tyranids have kept all of their previous models and gained many more. Even if the power levels of each of them have changed at least they can still be used*. Most people should still be able to field a half decent tyranid list from what they used to have.

*I do feel sorry for people who glued a sniperfex together though- plastic/ plastic bonds are damn tough...

This is technically my 4th. I started in early 2nd edition with the army list in the rulebook, then the first full Tyranid codex came out. I didn't have many opportunities to play during college, so I didn't start 3rd edition until after the Nid codex was released. Then came the 4th edition and now 5th. This is the first time that the change has bothered me, and it has nothing to do with powergaming or even overall effectiveness. It's all about the loss of options and change of the fluff and feel of the army compared to all the previous editions.

Also, I would like to point out that Cruddace's fluff and rules are redundant and contradictory in several places:

The hive mind resurrecting individuals with their own distinct memories and personality? That's crap.
Zoanthropes don't ever draw power from the warp itself in one part of the book and then draw power from the warp in another part. Hello?
Old One Eye has crushing claws which cancel out living battering ram, but he's listed as having living battering ram anyway even though it does nothing. He added the interesting concept of the rupture cannon (two different projectiles creating a devastating effect when they both hit), but then gave it a laughable description and boring rules that are practically indistinguishable from a venom cannon.
The Pyrovore. WTF.
Apparently he thought Lictor deployment rules were too complicated, so he gave them rules to just appear anywhere and then stand still for a turn before they can do much of anything. Simpler? I guess. But then he gave the lictor's 3rd edition deployment rules to the ymgarl genestealers. Again, WTF?


It's just not well thought out. This isn't a well-crafted labor of love from someone who gets the appeal of the army, it's a reboot from someone who treated it as an adversaries list. Where Philly Kelly got things wrong in the last edition, at least he did them from a position of enthusiasm for the central concept of the tyranids as a rapidly-evolving predator race. Cruddace thinks of them more like a fully-organic version of the Cylons from the BSG remake.

naloth
15-01-2010, 04:37
Is this the first edition change for most Tyranid players posting on here?


I'm a first edition Tyranid player - ever since Rogue Trader came out. Well, truthfully I ran a "beasts" list with Devils, Enslavers, Tyranids, and Genestealers but that's beside the point (and ironic that other than 'slavers they were retrofit to be part of the same race). I was captivated by the first "real" nid army when it came out in White Dwarf and bought my Zoats and Screamer Killers. IIRC I already had stealers and Warriors from Space Hulk. Back then there squigs were part of the army too. Army balance was a bad joke but no one seemed to care that much.

2nd edition was a lot like 5e is going to be. There were tons of new creatures and some older stuff (like Zoats & Squids) got removed. Army balance still sucked but if you threw out the Virus card the game was reasonably fun.

3e was my favorite of all. It made everything a lot better and 'nids went from a second string army to a really nasty force. Who didn't run a custom fleet made of their favorite 6 or so units designed sleek and lean? Ok, the rules might have been a little too generous in what they let you do (much like the Vehicle Design Rules). Of course largely due to those rules, there really aren't many "useless" units even though the mutable genus are the most fun.

4e was reasonable and you can make a competitive army from it. Sure, the army needs a bit of balance work (buff a few things, adjust a few point values) but it's pretty solid.

5e is a lot like 1e -> 2e where they introduce a ton of critters and re-vamp what a lot of the units do. That's not necessarily bad but it generally takes an edition before GW sees how the army fits together. 5e will have internal balance issues because a lot of it is completely new or greatly altered.

On a more visual note, the models have definitely improved. While I liked a lot of the previous models (2e Hive Tyrant and the original Screamer Killer especially) the new models fit together extremely well. The entire current range is alien and amazing.

CapnBob
15-01-2010, 05:00
On a more visual note, the models have definitely improved. While I liked a lot of the previous models (2e Hive Tyrant and the original Screamer Killer especially) the new models fit together extremely well. The entire current range is alien and amazing.

Yeah, the models are amazing. No complaints there! But I definitely feel that the new units are not properly balanced with the old and the feel of the whole army is off. I think it's going to take another edition with a different designer to get it all sorted out properly.

Geep
15-01-2010, 08:02
This is the first time that the change has bothered me, and it has nothing to do with powergaming or even overall effectiveness. It's all about the loss of options and change of the fluff and feel of the army compared to all the previous editions
Loss of options is always a disappointment, but there were so many options that rarely, if ever, saw use that I don't see this as too big an issue with the new book (and most of the options which always saw use are now a part of that model's basic rules).

I can undertstand hatred of fluff edits and generally poorly thought out descriptions (I hate errors where it's obvious a basic proof read wasn't done before print), but to the people who are crying out because their favourite model(s)/ play style was nerfed/ changed- I can't say much more than 'get used to it'. This is what happens with new editions- things change, the game gets shaken up and the overall effect means that the game doesn't became a stale, repetitive experience for decades at a time.

For the changes with the lictor deployment- I'm just happy they aren't being out-stealthed by Marbo anymore. Having lictors and Marbo facing off would be quite amusing now- Marbo's demo charge can intant-kill the Lictors, but the Lictor's flesh hooks can also slaughter Marbo...

CthulhuDalek
15-01-2010, 08:09
I just want to point out here, that having a competitive build in the codex is not proof of it being a "good codex."

It seems like it's definitely the weakest of the new 'dexes.

What good is having a few power builds if all these units are overpriced/nerfed?
-Hive Tyrants
-Genestealers are about the correct points value, but should have the old flesh hooks.
-Carnifex
-Tyrant Guard
-spinegaunts
-tyrannofex

And I'm sure there are more redundant options... :/

AlmightyNocturnus
15-01-2010, 08:28
I agree with everything Geep said above. After your (army`s) codex has been updated a few times and you collect so many models that adapting to the new edition is simply a matter of substituting a few things, you can view these changes as just part of the tide. Things change. You just adapt. It keeps 40K from growing stale in the long run.

I haven`t finished reading the `dex yet, but it seems many people have said there are grammatical errors and such - which isn`t cool. I`m not sure HOW you can gut/ruin/rip-the-soul-out-of Tyranid fluff though: "The Tyranids came. Some race made a futile attempt to stop them. The Tyranids ate everything. They moved on to the next planet." This seems to be about all they do. They don`t even talk (as we know it, anyway), so that`s also very fluff-limiting.

Almighty Nocturnus

CapnBob
15-01-2010, 09:27
Loss of options is always a disappointment, but there were so many options that rarely, if ever, saw use that I don't see this as too big an issue with the new book (and most of the options which always saw use are now a part of that model's basic rules).

I can undertstand hatred of fluff edits and generally poorly thought out descriptions (I hate errors where it's obvious a basic proof read wasn't done before print), but to the people who are crying out because their favourite model(s)/ play style was nerfed/ changed- I can't say much more than 'get used to it'. This is what happens with new editions- things change, the game gets shaken up and the overall effect means that the game doesn't became a stale, repetitive experience for decades at a time.

I don't think releasing a new codex with essentially 9 biomorphs in the whole book is going to help to keep things shaken up for long. Without those options, the optimal builds for each unit are going to become apparent very fast, and then the optimal unit combinations will also become easy to spot, and we'll be back to stale very very quickly.

I'm also hesitant to spend any money on anything other than vanilla models now, because a lot of the really useful combinations that GW encouraged last edition are no longer legal. Why would I spend money to make all the trygon variants and tervigons and tyrannofexes and harpies and whatnot when chances are that whichever build becomes the most popular will become useless and illegal next edition? If they're just going to go to a nerfbat pendulum method of "shaking things up" then I guess I'll only play the even-numbered editions from here on out.

Egaeus
15-01-2010, 09:50
I don't think releasing a new codex with essentially 9 biomorphs in the whole book is going to help to keep things shaken up for long. Without those options, the optimal builds for each unit are going to become apparent very fast, and then the optimal unit combinations will also become easy to spot, and we'll be back to stale very very quickly.

That's sort of what gets me with a lot of the comments...sure things will be "shaken up" but only for the couple months or so it will take for people to settle on the new "power build(s)" (at least we can hope there will be more than one). And then we settle in to the same-old same-old for the next however many years until the next game or codex edition.

The problem really is that if you're going to have variety it needs to provide viable options...that was part of the previous problem...sure you had lots of options but many of them just weren't that useful for the points. So even if you have 20 options if only 3 of them are really useful, that's what you're going to see most of the time.


I'm also hesitant to spend any money on anything other than vanilla models now, because a lot of the really useful combinations that GW encouraged last edition are no longer legal. Why would I spend money to make all the trygon variants and tervigons and tyrannofexes and harpies and whatnot when chances are that whichever build becomes the most popular will become useless and illegal next edition? If they're just going to go to a nerfbat pendulum method of "shaking things up" then I guess I'll only play the even-numbered editions from here on out.

Well I've always been fairly conservative in my model construction so I don't tend to get hit so hard by Codex changes since most of the "core" stuff tends to stay viable (although from what I hear the change in Gaunt weapons is going to cause me some consternation).

One of the other fundamental issues GW has seemed to have from the beginning is an inability to fine-tune things...they always seem to take a sledgehammer to things when a screwdriver would be more appropriate. I've never really been able to figure out whether this is simply an incompetence on the part of the game designers or a sinister maketing plot to get you to buy other stuff. I tend to discount this conspiracy theory though because these pendulum swings aren't always consistent either (although that could be part of the insidiousness of it). :evilgrin:

Zanzibarthefirst
15-01-2010, 15:33
Ive found complaint with the cost of my original list -> new list. its not 18pts more expensive but 30pts :eek: because i didnt realise the broodlord was an upgrade for a genestealer. Im working on a new list without having to buy loads of new models but at 1500pts its not going to be pretty.

Hive Tyrant, venom cannon, hive commander, regeneration

8 genestealers, scything talons
8 genestealers
7 genestealers, broodlord with scything talons

3 Zoanthropes

Trygon Prime, regeneration
Carnifex, venom cannon
Carnifex, devourers, barbed strangler

All I need to buy is 1 trygon though Im losing the use of 3 tyrant Guard and a carnifex. At 2000k points I'll add the Tyrant Guard and a unit of termagants and a tervigon, meaning I only have to buy another box of termagants as it might be possible to convert my screamer killer into a tervigon, give it mandibles and mould some birthing pods onto the belly

Skyros
15-01-2010, 16:11
I agree with everything Geep said above. After your (army`s) codex has been updated a few times and you collect so many models that adapting to the new edition is simply a matter of substituting a few things, you can view these changes as just part of the tide. Things change. You just adapt. It keeps 40K from growing stale in the long run.

This is the view I take. Things are going to change - hopefully leading towards better and improved gameplay and balance. I think 40k has been getting better. Some units will become better, some worse. Many units will remain more or less as they were so it's not like you're having to throw out your entire collection and start over from scratch each time a new codex comes out.

As long as there is a reasoning behind the changes, I don't particularly mind when they occur. Sometimes a unit that was too strong will become too weak. Hopefully next edition will see it hit a happy medium.

Bolter Bait
16-01-2010, 03:16
Well, got my preorder copy today. Only a day prior to when I could just walk into the store and purchase a copy that wasn't pre-creased. :eyebrows: First and last time I ever preorder something from GW.

My kneejerk reaction to the codex is that a lot of things have been pointlessly changed solely for the sake of change. It is very clear that Cruddace was told from the beginning to rewrite with a focus on stimulating sales of new models and forcing the repurchasing of older kits by nerfing common builds or even things as simple as weapon options. Had he wrote it in such a way as to address the problems created by the change to 5th edition, revitalize failed or unpopular units, whilst maintaining an interesting variety of competitive choices, I'd be less harsh a judge.

Losing MtC on most units, as well as the option to take frag equivalents on most dedicated CC units is obnoxious. In a wonderful example of pointlessness and poor writing, Old One Eye has the +2 Initiative when launching an assault rule, but lacks frags, placing it back at I1 if it plows into cover. Good work there, especially when considered that the "standard" Carnifex has the option for frags.

Likewise, the addition of the Pyrovore was a great opportunity to add a unique and interesting creature that filled one of the many empty niches in the Tyranid options. Instead, it's a heavy flamer that competes against better choices for an Elite slot in any army that is already highly proficient in anti-infantry capabilities. Additionally, it's ability to rupture will either be triggered at a range where it does nothing, won't be triggered when it dies to bog standard attacks, or will fail 50% of the time if it does live long enough to be popped by a powerfist. I also feel grossly misled when the Pyrovore was described as a creature with acidic mucus that eats it's way through the enemy. A single, piddly S4 power weapon and a S3 ap - acid splash do not live up to that description.

Harpies are in a weird spot. They appeal to me in concept, but a T5 4+ sv MC is going to be hard to keep alive. Especially when considering that a flying MC is much less likely to get a cover save ever than a walking one. The Parasite is a little more appealing, since it's IC status means one could stick it into a brood of Gargoyles or flying Rippers - the downgrade from T4 to T3 isn't that big of a deal. However, since the Parasite lacks MC status, lacks power weapons and relies on killing models for it's special rules, which will be difficult if it cannot get past armour saves, I'm kind of iffy on it it'll be worth it.

The Doom wins my WTF award for being cool but useless. Follow along. It starts with 4 wounds. It has to take a test to use Cataclysm, risking a wound from Perils. Then it loses D3 wounds for using Cataclysm. Not if Cataclysm is successful, simply for using the power. Then it actually has to hit something and hope that it gains those wounds back. It's the only unit in the game that kills itself doing what it's supposed to do. And it's a Legendary creature! How did it survive for so long?

The new Shadow in the Warp is nice in theory. In practice, 12" is usually half the range of any psychic shooting attack, so I don't expect it to actually protect me against psykers. Odd that an effect that can blot out an ENTIRE PLANET has such a short range on the tabletop. At least it will provide protection against FW now that we've lost EW from Synapse.

Despite losing Fleet for some bizarre and inconceivable but assuredly pointless reason, Gargoyles look to be winners in my book. Excellent new sculpts, a nice points cut, and poisoned attacks by default are all welcome changes.

Given the streamlining of biomorphs into USRS, the lack of flexible statlines and the fixed profiles of weapons, this codex really seems to be aimed at young children, adults with a fear of math and chimpanzees. It wasn't difficult to write down a list and then use it. Once the list is written, it's there forever, so I don't see what was so hard about it. I always had a few variant lists written up in a little notebook, complete with altered statlines, points and bioweapons, both for my ease of use and for opponent's perusal. A little bit of prep-time goes a long way. But hey, I guess writing a codex to accommodate those who have trouble with 1 + 1 goes a long way towards promoting sales.

Chief Librarian Zypher
16-01-2010, 03:44
with each edition comes change. i'm glad that they finally have some special characters to balance out against other armies. with all the other removals and additions, it will just take some time getting used to. The whole Carnifex BROOD is a cool change that I like.

Now maybe all the whining and griping threads will stop now that the truth is out. Man those are annoying.

Vepr
16-01-2010, 03:56
No way Bolter Bait this is the best codex ever just ask anyone that does not play nids. Cruddace did a great job with IG therefore it is impossible that this codex is not just as good as IG! Just wait 6 months and then if you still don't like it come back in a year!!! Any complaints are nerd rage!!! ;) :p

Ok I am going over board. The ardent fanboys are as bad as the doom and gloom crew in my opinion so I have to poke some fun at them. Anyways as I have said in some other threads I would not call the codex bad but I would not call it good either. I guess it comes down to "color me unimpressed". The internal balance is bad and the codex is already in desperate need of a FAQ in my opinion before it was even officially released. It is almost like Cruddace got lazy after IG or they just needed something for IG and wolves to shoot up that was easier than Orks. :shifty: :p Anyways it is playable and I have my very own copy now instead of grubbing up the store copy every other day.

So for better or worse I am going to keep adding to the test games I already have under my belt and just step up to the challenge and have fun.

naloth
16-01-2010, 04:04
Now maybe all the whining and griping threads will stop now that the truth is out. Man those are annoying.

Doubtful... There's a lot of :confused: or :wtf: entries in this codex. Much if it is boggling.

Just taking the Hive Tyrant:
- It doesn't look like any of his psychics can be used in CC despite being very short ranged abilities on a primarily hth guy.
- The morale check to allow a HT to be charged is now a 25 point upgrade. Even when it was free I forgot about it. It's rated as equal to +1 reserves or allowing everything within 6" (including the HT) to re-roll to-hits.
- For the same price you could have a TL Deathspitter (18" S5 AP5 Assault 3) <or> a TL MC Devourer (18" S6 AP - Assault 6). Does anyone think AP5 is really worth loosing -1S and 3 shots per turn?

Many of the options and units are "balanced" like this.

Really though, I'm looking at a lot of new models and a lot of new rules. The 6e 'dex has a fertile ground for fixing what's been added/changed in 5e after it spends a couple of years being griped about. :)

Vineas
16-01-2010, 04:46
I have to love the conspiracy that says "GW made spinegaunts 1pt more to make me by more termagants because I don't want to break arms off 90 or 100 spinegaunts".

The fact that people want to min-max and only take optimal units is not GW's fault. In some situations the spinefist is better than the fleshborer. Perhaps if people stopped using them as bullet catchers and thus buying the cheapest loadout possible people wouldn't feel GW is trying to feth them by making certain options worst or better.

People have to get over themselves. GW didn't purposely **** over spinegaunts to make you spend $100 replacing them. The fact that you choose to min-max is your fault, not GW's.

My spinegaunts are staying as they are as I face IG more than I do marines and spinies are better vs IG. SF are also insurance if you roll bad. Rolling 30 dice for 30 FB isn't so great if only 6 or 8 hit (and it could happen even with 50/50 chance of hitting). Hitting 8 times but getting to reroll the 22 misses is a lot more valuable.

But yeah, GW is out to personally screw over players who took lots of spinegaunts. Jesus H. Christ. That's the new conspiracy theory? Try again. Epic fail.

Lusall
16-01-2010, 05:24
The back ground just annoys me...

Vepr
16-01-2010, 05:29
One thing that I missed in multiple reads until now is that Lictors and the Death Leaper have lurk. Lurk... They have lurk... Yes they are meant to operate behind enemy lines well ahead of the horde... and they have lurk. Pretty much every time we use them we are going to be rolling LD checks... :wtf:

Shadowfax
16-01-2010, 07:40
My spinegaunts are staying as they are as I face IG more than I do marines and spinies are better vs IG.

No. They. Are. Not.

Well, they are if you and your friends just grab whatever models you have and throw them down on the table for a game without writing lists, but point-for-point they are worse than Fleshborers, and using Fleshborers nets you extra wounds (from a survivability standpoint) as well.

As usual, your shrill and strident tone accompanies a post littered with incorrect facts and misdirection. It's quite a toxic mix. :rolleyes:

Vineas
16-01-2010, 09:13
The. Issue. Isn't. The. End. Of. The. World.

You can't tell me that you'd be happier with 8 hits out of 30 @ S4 than 8 hits out of 30 @ S3 rerolling the 22 shots that missed?

If you are than you and your friends must just grab models and not write lists.

Accepting you might get 50% of your misses back that is 19 hits @ S3 vs 8 hits @ S4. Mathing it out says that in that scenario you are looking at 6.27 wounds vs 4 wounds vs MEQ or 9.5 wounds vs 5.36 wounds vs GEQ. Assuming no cover save that is 9.5 dead vs 5 dead? Guess what the better result is? Assuming cover that is 4.75 dead vs 2.67 dead. Again guess what the better result is?

It's insurance. If you don't want insurance than I bet you would never pay 50% more for TL weapons on Tau suits or if given the option of a TL-Assault Cannon at 45 and a non-TL assault cannon at 40 you'd take the non-twin-linked because it's 5 points cheaper and nobody EVER misses all or more than 50% of their shots. Am I right?

Really, it's not the end of the world. So your brood of 30 gaunts went up by a whopping 30 pts. Boohoo. So you can't take regen on your tyrant or trygon/mawloc if you keep the spinegaunts. Let me get a sponge to soak up your tears.

Point being that it is not a conspiracy by GW to get you to buy more gaunts. People doing that either have no skill in disassembly, used plastic glue so will butcher their models or just want another reason to bitch about GW. Spinegaunts are still usable. People choosing to replace them are just pissed that their bullet shields went up 1 pt per model. Boo-******-hoo.

Souleater
16-01-2010, 09:17
People have to get over themselves. GW didn't purposely **** over spinegaunts to make you spend $100 replacing them. The fact that you choose to min-max is your fault, not GW's.


Fielding cheap chaff units has been fluffy for tyranids since 2nd edition.

Vineas
16-01-2010, 09:21
Fielding cheap chaff units has been fluffy for tyranids since 2nd edition.

6pts is cheap.

10 is not.

20 is not.

2pts is cheap

6pts is cheap.

190 is NOT cheap.

Tell me again how your swarmy nid army is ruined. Assuming you played with 180 gaunts in 4th ed that means your gaunt swarm went up a whopping 180pts.

Guess you can't be like the cool kids and buy a Trygon or Mawloc can you?

azimaith
16-01-2010, 09:30
In 1500 points a trygon or mawloc is a big deal. Its easily a model that will swing an army from defeat to victory.

My only problem with spine gaunts is that along with their point increase they didn't really get any appreciable bonus to accompany it. Certainly a 5 point spinegaunt and a 5 point termagant would be equally worthy, the termagant being a harder hitting unit while the spine gaunt provided softer hits but greater reliability.

player21
16-01-2010, 09:40
Every codex has good stuff and bad stuff. I like the feel of the new codex. I am hoping to get some play time with it in the next few days. I am just glade that this codex doesn't have the Andy Chambers fill to it.

Vineas
16-01-2010, 09:44
Maybe it would swing an army from defeat to victory.

It could help table your opponent or wipe out his own scoring units but for actually being a scoring threat he won't help.

Still too much faith in one model. Yeah the trygon is badass but it's not going to be a game winner anymore than a carnifex or a 2nd naked HT would be.

azimaith
16-01-2010, 09:47
Any unit that's highly capable of carnage (trygon) is a threat *to* scoring units and to units that would kill your scoring units.

Once again, I don't see the reason the spinefist went up in cost, you could have had them be the same and still had a choice to make, greater reliability vs greater stopping power.

petpetpetpet
16-01-2010, 11:22
In 1500 points a trygon or mawloc is a big deal. Its easily a model that will swing an army from defeat to victory.

Imo, any mech unit with meltaguns& hidden powerfists will slaughter it.

Anyways here's my thoughts:-

Tyrant - Far too expensive for what it does.
Swarmlord - Like a upgraded melee Tyrant but with 6" move.
Tyrant Guard - Got better it's all good.
Tervigon - A MC that spawns Termagants, good for objectives but not for killpoints, worth having one.
Tyranid Prime - Good value for points, it's no MC but it's not bad.
Parasite of Mortex - Funny unit, won't be using it though.

Hive Guard- Are meh, they're ok but only 24" range.
Lictors -Always have been crap and still are.
Deathleaper - ANother funny character in the book I won't use.
Venomthrope - At first glance the forcefield sounds good, but then when you realise it takes just 1 shot to fook these up, not so useful.
Zoanthropes - These are da bomb, biggest winners from the previous dex by far.
Doom of Malantai - ANother funny character nobody will use.
Pyrovore - A tyranid with a heavy flamer yay.
Biovores - Yay no more killpoints for spores, shame the only thing they won't kill any space marines.
Ymgarl Stealers - ANother funny special unit but easy to counter.

Warriors - Troops choices yay! Some reliable objective holders.
Genestealers - Same as they always were but cheaper so not too shabby.
Gaunts - Cheap and cheerful but not useful for any kind of mission.
Mycetic Spores - Woohoo drop pods!
Rippers - The funny tyranid unit like orks and their grots where would we be without them?

Tyranid Shrike Brood - Winged warriors woohoo! Maybe viable in 2k+ games.
Raveners - Slightly better and cheaper too, im a happy panda.
Skylasher swarm brood - Winged gaunts woohoo! pity they can't capture objectives, although winged gaunts with toxin sacs could be good creature killers, but at 19 points each hmmm...
Gargoyles- Only reason to take them is how cheap they are, can't see how they will effect the outcome of any game.
Harpy - A cheap flying MC, could be good.

Carnifexes - Far far too expensive, have been made like Space Marine dreadnoughts, totally useless, guess we will have to move onto big and better things.
Old One Eye - Another funny special character.
Trygons/Mawlocs -Hmmm Im not sold on them, in previous games I always found it easy to deal with deep striking stuff, but it is hard for some armies, a 50-50 unit if you ask me.
Tyrannofex - Maaan, probably the best new unit, at first when you see it's the cost of a land raider but then when you realise what it does for that price. Lets look at it:- 20 strength 4 shots, 2 strength 10, a hellhound cannon, t6 6 wounds and 2+ save, a bargain if you ask me.

Thanks,

Petx4

azimaith
16-01-2010, 11:39
How can you complain a biovore brood that can drop three large blasts will never kill space marines then advocate a 20 shot BS3 creature for more than a land raiders cost.
20 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1-2 dead marines.

I could have 6 biovores chunking out six template a turn for that cost.

Jarogr
16-01-2010, 12:58
Actually biovores are really great. For 45 points you anti-infantry unit which have a large blast (barrage - pinning) with s4 ap4. If it dies, phii it was cheap, and about tyrannofex I think 1 is good for army (long range s10 ap4 for heavy tanks is nice) but if he dies it will be a great suffer.
About hive guards, many of you thinks 24" is to low and it's not to good unit. In every game i played with it it paid for itself at least twice. SMS with s8 is pain in your opponents .... Belive me.
You have to destroy orky wagons that hide from your view, nothing easier, kill avatar, 2 turns and he should die, instant kill enemy hq with t4 or lower also raher easy.
Tervigon - one of best new things (if not the best) - he can be troops, he spawns termagaunts, he hold objectives and he can give feel no pain.
Genestealers - don't fight so good like in last codex but they are cheaper and have outflank base
Pyrovore - not to good
Zoanthropes - great, bs4 s10 ap1 lance - no tank can hold it
tyrant - much overcosted but it will still be the major hq, devourers are weaker because of bs 3 and no living ammunition but still he can kill most infantry and/or light vehicles
tyranid prime - cost/quality great. if you have warrior army you must include at least one
trygon, trygon prime, mawlock - prime is best of those three, but in4 and he can't charge the turn he enter the game make him easy to kill for opponents, mawlock is risky, he can make big damage from the 5" template or he can do nothing
venomthrope - only the cloud is nice
hormagaunts - cheap, nice unit
gargoyles - cost/quality great
raveners - nice
tyrant guards - 60 cost :/, but still nice
warriors - lack of ew makes them #1 target for s8+ weapons, but rather nice (especially with deathspitters and prime, maybe 2x swords too but then they cost 45 each)

K4neX
16-01-2010, 14:41
Actually biovores are really great. For 45 points you anti-infantry unit which have a big template (barrage - pinning) with s4 ap4. If it dies, phii it was cheap, and about tyrannofex I think 1 is good for army (long range s10 ap4 for heavy tanks is nice) but if he dies it will be a great suffer.
About hive guards, many of you thinks 24" is to low and it's not to good unit. In every game i played with it it paid for itself at least twice. SMS with s8 is pain in your opponents .... Belive me.
You have to destroy orky wagons that hide from your view, nothing easier, kill avatar, 2 turns and he should die, instant kill enemy hq with t4 or lower also raher easy.
Tervigon - one of best new things (if not the best) - he can be troops, he spawns termagaunts, he hold objectives and he can give feel no pain.
Genestealers - don't fight so good like in last codex but they are cheaper and have outflank base
Pyrovore - not to good
Zoanthropes - great, bs4 s10 ap1 lance - no tank can hold it
tyrant - much overcosted but it will still be the major hq, devourers are weaker because of bs 3 and no living ammunition but still he can kill most infantry and/or light vehicles
tyranid prime - cost/quality great. if you have warrior army you must include at least one
trygon, trygon prime, mawlock - prime is best of those three, but in4 and he can't charge the turn he enter the game make him easy to kill for opponents, mawlock is risky, he can make big damage from the 5" template or he can do nothing
venomthrope - only the cloud is nice
hormagaunts - cheap, nice unit
gargoyles - cost/quality great
raveners - nice
tyrant guards - 60 cost :/, but still nice
warriors - lack of ew makes them #1 target for s8+ weapons, but rather nice (especially with deathspitters and prime, maybe 2x swords too but then they cost 45 each)

Why does everyone say that the Tyrant Guard is good? From what I read, the Hive Tyrant joints the Tyrant Guard unit as an Independent Character NOT an Upgraded Character. That means according to page 49 of the main rule book, the Hive Tyrant being a MC joining a non-MC unit, the Hive Tyrant can always be picked out as a separate target in shooting and in close combat.

Bolter Bait
16-01-2010, 14:50
I am doing my best to look for the bright side of things. One of the nice details that made it into the book is that the unit entries in the Army List section and the general summary on page 96 actually all have page references to where the pertinent rules can be found. And it only took them 5 freaking years to start doing this when they came out with the new and improved annoying codex format with the Dark Angel book. Granted, I haven't looked all that closely at the IG and SW codex, so maybe this trend started a little bit earlier, but hey, good work. 5 years late but still better than never.

Vepr
16-01-2010, 15:06
Why does everyone say that the Tyrant Guard is good? From what I read, the Hive Tyrant joints the Tyrant Guard unit as an Independent Character NOT an Upgraded Character. That means according to page 49 of the main rule book, the Hive Tyrant being a MC joining a non-MC unit, the Hive Tyrant can always be picked out as a separate target in shooting and in close combat.

Yeah I am not sure of the point of Tyrant Guard anymore. They do nothing for the Tyrant other than give him a cover save. The Shield rule does not seem to explain it very well and just makes it seem like he is regular IC.

TheDarkDuke
16-01-2010, 15:10
Why does everyone say that the Tyrant Guard is good? From what I read, the Hive Tyrant joints the Tyrant Guard unit as an Independent Character NOT an Upgraded Character. That means according to page 49 of the main rule book, the Hive Tyrant being a MC joining a non-MC unit, the Hive Tyrant can always be picked out as a separate target in shooting and in close combat.

You should really read the Nid book before assuming anything. Tyrant Guard are basically a retinue and they have special rules that protect a tryant.

unless your thinking hive guard which have really nothing to do with the hive tyrant (just a GW thing confusing people with similar names).

Phenski
16-01-2010, 15:26
Ah petpet, what a silly fool you seem...

Life sucking, stat reducing, 3d6 insta-killing Tyrants are seriously Awesome. With a capital.
Doom in a Spore, pure evil death delivered fresh.
2(or 3)x new Dakkafexes in a Brood, 12 TL shots ea, -1 leadership on morale. +2 attacks, STILL str9, +init on charge. One Killpoint???? More expensive, so worth it.
DS Rippers with spinefists (only model in new dex whos gonna wear them now)
Mawlocs, resurfacable objective grabbers with a bite
Im pretty sure I only agree with you bout the Stealers, with toxin! This will become 5th ed feeder-tendrils, ie standard equip

Kheotour
16-01-2010, 15:41
You should really read the Nid book before assuming anything. Tyrant Guard are basically a retinue and they have special rules that protect a tyrant.

unless your thinking hive guard which have really nothing to do with the hive tyrant (just a GW thing confusing people with similar names).

Where does it say that the Tyrant Guard are a retinue or have special rules that protect the Hive Tyrant? The Tyrant Guard give zero benefit to the Hive Tyrant. The Shieldwall rule just lets the Tyrant join the unit and keeps the unit from going to ground. Thats it. The Hive Tyrant can still be singled out as a MC. The Tyrant Guard gain benefits from the Hive Tyrant joining them but not vice versa.

Unless I am missing something.

Vepr
16-01-2010, 15:56
Where does it say that the Tyrant Guard are a retinue or have special rules that protect the Hive Tyrant? The Tyrant Guard give zero benefit to the Hive Tyrant. The Shieldwall rule just lets the Tyrant join the unit and keeps the unit from going to ground. Thats it. The Hive Tyrant can still be singled out as a MC. The Tyrant Guard gain benefits from the Hive Tyrant joining them but not vice versa.

Unless I am missing something.

Well not that I read it again it says he may join them as "if" he were an IC. But it does not say he becomes an IC. Probably needs a bit of clarification in a FAQ.

Egaeus
16-01-2010, 16:07
I am doing my best to look for the bright side of things. One of the nice details that made it into the book is that the unit entries in the Army List section and the general summary on page 96 actually all have page references to where the pertinent rules can be found. And it only took them 5 freaking years to start doing this when they came out with the new and improved annoying codex format with the Dark Angel book. Granted, I haven't looked all that closely at the IG and SW codex, so maybe this trend started a little bit earlier, but hey, good work. 5 years late but still better than never.

Actually I just checked and all the 5th Ed Codexes (Marines, IG, SW and now 'Nids) have this. So it's not really new.

Vepr
16-01-2010, 16:12
Actually I just checked and all the 5th Ed Codexes (Marines, IG, SW and now 'Nids) have this. So it's not really new.

You are not helping us with our quest for some type of warm fuzzy with this codex... :p

Bolter Bait
16-01-2010, 16:13
Actually I just checked and all the 5th Ed Codexes (Marines, IG, SW and now 'Nids) have this. So it's not really new.Nice to know. C:Nids is the first codex actually in my hands that has page references.

naloth
16-01-2010, 16:35
Ah petpet, what a silly fool you seem...

Life sucking, stat reducing, 3d6 insta-killing Tyrants are seriously Awesome.

You can't get dual bone swords. The life sucking and stat reducing doesn't work in CC. I'm also guessing you haven't seen the cost for that tyrant. Think ~200 points loaded w/just a W4 T6 3+ save.



Doom in a Spore, pure evil death delivered fresh.

A precious elite choice that relies on a lot of luck and offers 2 units that can be insta-killed with S8 or just rapid fire slaughtered for easy kill points. If Doomy doesn't land within 6" of anyone he may almost kill himself when he deep strikes in.



2(or 3)x new Dakkafexes in a Brood, 12 TL shots ea, -1 leadership on morale. +2 attacks, STILL str9, +init on charge. One Killpoint???? More expensive, so worth it.

At 190ish I don't think so. A unit of 20 devilgaunts kills the same number of marines at 1/3 of the cost and backed by a Adrenile Gland / TS Tervigon they are almost as good as hormagaunts even when assaulted.



DS Rippers with spinefists (only model in new dex whos gonna wear them now)

17/base is pretty expensive for 4 TLed S3 shots at BS2. Gaunts can put out more and better shooting. Also, if you don't come up in Synapse they usually won't shoot at all (IB: Feed, Ld 5).



Mawlocs, resurfacable objective grabbers with a bite
Im pretty sure I only agree with you bout the Stealers, with toxin! This will become 5th ed feeder-tendrils, ie standard equip
Finally something I agree with.

Bolter Bait
16-01-2010, 18:12
On a further reading, I'm bothered that Tyranids come standard with certain weapons. For example, a Carnifex comes standard with two sets of scything talons and is priced accordingly. That's fine. But the Carnifex then has to pay to "upgrade" a pair of scything talons to crushing claws. The problem is, the Carnifex base cost is calculated around the rerolls to hit granted by the talons being included. However, these rerolls are lost as talons are replaced. So why should we pay for special rules that we don't even have anymore?

This is one of the changes from the Kelly codex to the Cruddace codex that irks me. In all honesty, the units should be arranged and priced according to the bare-bones creature and then any weapon costs should be added on individually as those weapons are taken.

Sarevok
16-01-2010, 18:16
On a further reading, I'm bothered that Tyranids come standard with certain weapons. For example, a Carnifex comes standard with two sets of scything talons and is priced accordingly. That's fine. But the Carnifex then has to pay to "upgrade" a pair of scything talons to crushing claws. The problem is, the Carnifex base cost is calculated around the rerolls to hit granted by the talons being included. However, these rerolls are lost as talons are replaced. So why should we pay for special rules that we don't even have anymore?


I would assume the cost of the crushing claws takes into account the scything talons? Anyway it's no different from any other recent codex.

Souleater
16-01-2010, 18:24
@ Vineas: You made a point that Nid players had min/maxed by using very cheap spinegaunts.

I pointed out that very cheap creatures are used in the fluff by the Hivemind to do exactly what Nid players have been using them for - cover, tarpit, etc.

I didn't say my swarm was ruined.

And I had my Trygon about a month before most of the cool kids, cheers :D

JonnyX
16-01-2010, 18:24
i played 2 games against the new codex today at 1.5k and experienced the following points:
Carnifexs were slow to get into combat and even when they did they we killed very quickly, even my 5 man sniper scout squad killed one.
The parasite looks amazing on paper until it recieves a powerfist to the face and loses its ten wounds.The 3+invun helps it survive but the T4 just makes it a glass cannon.
As expected the tyranid warriors fell like bricks when facing any decent opposition with a powerfist in as a single marine with powerfist took out 8 warriors.
However, the biggest shock was how bad genestealers were in the new rules as they died in flocks to the bolters due to the drop in saves, however, the elite genestealers are very effective but also very expensive. The broodlord in these squads is a must as they saved my opponent countless times from powerfists with the glare stun thingy.
The mawloc was really the only thing that threatened me as it popped up, killed a whirlwind and charged my vindicator effectivly taking them both out of action.
Just my thoughts, Jon

Bolter Bait
16-01-2010, 18:28
I would assume the cost of the crushing claws takes into account the scything talons? Anyway it's no different from any other recent codex.For the most part, when upgrading say a Chaos Lord's CCweapon to a power weapon, that is an actual upgrade with nothing lost. Upgrading his bolt pistol to a plasma pistol still retains the basic rules of a pistol in general.

Assuming that Tyranids can stack weapon effects like they are supposed to, are 4 rerollable attacks equal to or less valuable than 4 + D3 attacks that only reroll 1s? If they don't stack, are 4 rerollable attacks equal to or less valuable than 4 + D3 attacks? According to my math, only when the Carnifex rolls a 3 for the extra attacks does it do more damage than a bare-bones twin-scytal one (ignoring the aberrant results of rolling 2 extra attacks against tau specifically). In fact, 5 attacks is less effective than 4 rerollable attacks and 6 attacks are equal to 4 rerollable attacks (again, barring tau math wierdness). Really, with a result of worse, equal and better, crushing claws ought to be a free upgrade, or at most, cost 20-40% of what they current do.

Sarevok
16-01-2010, 18:43
For the most part, when upgrading say a Chaos Lord's CCweapon to a power weapon, that is an actual upgrade with nothing lost. Upgrading his bolt pistol to a plasma pistol still retains the basic rules of a pistol in general.


Yeah but, it's like the same way that a Chaos Lord in Terminator armor pays less for a powerfist than when he's in power armor, because he's replacing a power weapon instead of replacing a CCW.


Assuming that Tyranids can stack weapon effects like they are supposed to, are 4 rerollable attacks equal to or less valuable than 4 + D3 attacks that only reroll 1s? If they don't stack, are 4 rerollable attacks equal to or less valuable than 4 + D3 attacks? According to my math, only when the Carnifex rolls a 3 for the extra attacks does it do more damage than a bare-bones twin-scytal one (ignoring the aberrant results of rolling 2 extra attacks against tau specifically).

4 attacks with two pairs of ST gives 3 hits average, 4+D3 with one pair gives 3.5 hits on average (I think).

Vineas
16-01-2010, 19:41
The Tyrant joins the TG AS IF he was an IC, it doesn't say he "becomes" an IC when joining them so by RAW and RAI the TG work the same as they did in the 4th ed codex.

So basically unlike a normal MC he can join a brood of Tyrant guard just like an IC could, he just isn't or doesn't become an IC. If he became an IC the rules would say "from the moment he joins the TG until the game ends or the TG are dead he is treated as an IC in all intents and purposes".

It's not as clearly worded as before but it functions the same way once you read it a few times.

Egaeus
16-01-2010, 20:18
It's not as clearly worded as before but it functions the same way once you read it a few times.

The fundamental problem is that the rulebook specifically says that MC ICs can always be picked out unless they've joined a unit of MCs or have "special rules that offer them protection". Simply being able to join the unit doesn't appear to override this clause, despite the intent.

The sad thing is that the 4th edition Shieldwall rule was crystal clear, so why they didn't reprint this rule along with the rule that the Tyrant may join or leave the unit as an IC is something of a conundrum.

TheDarkDuke
16-01-2010, 21:14
The sad thing is that the 4th edition Shieldwall rule was crystal clear, so why they didn't reprint this rule along with the rule that the Tyrant may join or leave the unit as an IC is something of a conundrum.

Because GW can't figure out how to cut & paste apparently. They just like to confuse the crap out of people with their poorly written rules then they take their sweet time making faqs that about 50% of the time dont cover some important topics and or make things even more confusing.

with all that said the game still is fun which is kind of wierd...:shifty:

itcamefromthedeep
16-01-2010, 21:18
The fundamental problem is that the rulebook specifically says that MC ICs can always be picked out unless they've joined a unit of MCs or have "special rules that offer them protection". Simply being able to join the unit doesn't appear to override this clause, despite the intent.

The sad thing is that the 4th edition Shieldwall rule was crystal clear, so why they didn't reprint this rule along with the rule that the Tyrant may join or leave the unit as an IC is something of a conundrum.
It's a good thing that a Hive Tyrant isn't an Independent Character.

The Shieldwall rule lets the Tyrant join the brood as if were an Independent Character. That's it, and nothing else. The Tyrant does not become an Independent Character. See page 48 of the 40k rulebook for the rules for Independent Characters joining units. Anything else that calls out the Independent Character special rule doesn't pick up on a Tyrant.

I'll try a reductio ad absurdum. If you were right then you'd have Chapter Champions getting re-rolls against Tyrants, but only when the Tyrant has Tyrant Guard.

The Shieldwall rule is indeed badly explained in this codex.

CapnBob
16-01-2010, 21:38
Yes, 5th edition MCs cannot be picked out of a unit for shooting, and Tyrants only count as IC for purposes of joining a unit. It's the same effect as in 4th but handled very poorly.

Egaeus
16-01-2010, 22:14
It's a good thing that a Hive Tyrant isn't an Independent Character.

The Shieldwall rule lets the Tyrant join the brood as if were an Independent Character. That's it, and nothing else. The Tyrant does not become an Independent Character. See page 48 of the 40k rulebook for the rules for Independent Characters joining units. Anything else that calls out the Independent Character special rule doesn't pick up on a Tyrant.

I'll try a reductio ad absurdum. If you were right then you'd have Chapter Champions getting re-rolls against Tyrants, but only when the Tyrant has Tyrant Guard.

The Shieldwall rule is indeed badly explained in this codex.


Yes, 5th edition MCs cannot be picked out of a unit for shooting, and Tyrants only count as IC for purposes of joining a unit. It's the same effect as in 4th but handled very poorly.

I do understand what you're saying about not "becoming" an IC but it's just an oddity of the rules then as it doesn't really explain how they interact with this unit unless you look at the "Shooting at ICs" section where it explains that they are treated as any other memeber of the unit with the further caveat that MCs can always be picked out. And the Shieldwall rule iteself does not provide any inherent protection other than the ability to join the unit.

Also, don't get me wrong...I'm a 'Nid player so not trying to do a rules debate, just pointing out as others have that it's a terribly worded rule (although as GW goes just one among many).

itcamefromthedeep
16-01-2010, 22:26
I do understand what you're saying about not "becoming" an IC but it's just an oddity of the rules then as it doesn't really explain how they interact with this unit unless you look at the "Shooting at ICs" section where it explains that they are treated as any other memeber of the unit with the further caveat that MCs can always be picked out. And the Shieldwall rule iteself does not provide any inherent protection other than the ability to join the unit.
You seem to still have the impression that a Hive Tyrant within a brood of Tyrant Guard can be picket out. It cannot. I apologize if I have misread your post here and we actually agree on this.

There is no rule saying that you may always pick out a Monstrous Creature simply by virtue of being a Monstrous Creature. As I recall, there was such a clause in 4th edition. It does not exist in 5th edition.

There is a rule saying that you can pick out an Independent Character that is also a Monstrous Creature. The Hive Tyrant does not fall into this category at any time.

A Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard as if it were an Independent Character, and so follows the rules for joining and leaving units as given on page 48 of the 40k rulebook.

As for how you treat the Hive Tyrant, it is effectively like the guy with a flamer in a Tactical Squad. It cannot be chosen as a target independent of the unit. While it is a Monstrous Creature, it is not an Independent Character. This is true even when it has joined a brood of Tyrant Guard the way an Independent Character could.

To determine whether or not the unit as a whole is in cover, you count the number of individual models that are in cover. In this case, you follow the rules for infantry to see if the Tyrant Guard models are in cover and use the Monstrous Creature rules to see if the Hive Tyrant is in cover. If half or more of the unit is in cover from the perspective of half or more of the firing models, then the whole brood (including the Hive Tyrant) will receive a cover save.

Is that sufficiently clear?

Egaeus
17-01-2010, 01:23
You seem to still have the impression that a Hive Tyrant within a brood of Tyrant Guard can be picket out. It cannot. I apologize if I have misread your post here and we actually agree on this.

I understand what you are saying and do agree with it. I am simply pointing out that it is unfortunately not worded as cleanly as it could be so there's potentially room for a rules lawyer to be a pain about it. ;)

One other thought that occurred to me...it says they may join the unit exactly like an IC but it doesn't specifically allow them to leave said unit...we could infer from the fact that ICs can join and leave unit's freely but as we've just established, they aren't actually ICs...and once they've joined they're just another model in the unit...:shifty:

Now obviously if you're going to join a Tyrant to some Tyrant Guard you probably aren't going to want it to leave them, just questioning if one had the option if one so wished...

K4neX
17-01-2010, 01:32
Then what will happen in close combat? Nowhere in the rule for Shield Wall makes Tyrant Guards as retinue and since Hive Tyrant is not an independent character, can he be targeted in close combat?

I expect GW with years of experience in writing codices and rules, they should know better to make rules clear to understand. All these vague and "fancy" sentencing are just poorly done. For a game that relies heavily on what is written in books, they should have some professional writers or even academics to actually proof read what they have written.

With the release of SW faq and the new tyranids codex, they both feel like GW has just started to get into the gaming market, instead of having years of experience behind the company.

herr_nilzzon
17-01-2010, 01:32
Unfortunately I haven't been able to get my new Codex: Tyranids since I got a nasty cold, but from what I can read from this thread I know one thing.

Powergamers whine like the whole universe is being sucked in to a black hole...
... and the more diverse players, that have larger collections of Tyranids (and play other lists than Nidzilla), tend to find the new codex more appealing.

I am part of that last category and have a long 'relationship' with the alien critters. I have about 120 assorted gaunt, roughly 60 stealers and varying numbers of most other beasts found in the Hive Fleets. With this background, I'm more than pleased with most of the changed that I have read here about.

Frankly, all here should be so aware of that GW is a huge corporation, that in true capitalistic spirit have only one focus: profit. So, is anyone really honestly surprised that there has been some heavy modifications of the new codex? Hasn't there been some major changes in all 5th Ed codices?

Complaining about 'simplified' unit entries?! This has been around all of 5th ed, and one can see it starting before that (--> Codex: Orks). Sure GW is interested in recruiting as many preteens as they can, but I think I made that point clear in a previous paragraph. I have been around since Rogue Trader and must say that minimizing the number of special rules, myrriad of equipment options for a unit ain't always for the worse.

In this sense, the older incarnations of Codex: Tyranids was sometimes just horrific for players that wasn't that dedicated to the hobby. Sure there where some really terrific builds to be made with Carnifexes, but is it even remotely sane of GW to have like 28 different biomorph/weapon choices for the fex back in 4th ed?

This new codex sounds to me like they are bringing the Tyranids back to basics in that they promote the Swarm again. The swarm worked really well back in 4th ed, and from reading here, I can't see why it wouldn't even be more brutal now.

It is also about changing your tactics. After all, did anyone of you actually expect to get a 'Space Marine De Luxe pimping' of the Tyranids? 50%+ of the whole sales volume for Warhammer 40,000 is Space Marines (loyalists - all chapters). They will always favorize some armies. Imperial Guard got a wonderful codex, but why? Anyone heard of Forge World? Well, you should, since they gave you the Trygon (and IG some tank variants, sentinel weapons, Valkyries etc).

This new codex will be a good one, once the tactics have been mastered and all the synergetic bonuses been found, but I am truly sorry for those of you who won't take the time to master this version of the codex as well as the previous one.

I'd just love to see what people think in august, when this codex has been around for a while. When the players have adapted, and not to forget, the 5th Ed Tyranids been played at a few tournaments.

(... and for the record, even I have my serious doubts about the Pyrovore).

CapnBob
17-01-2010, 02:32
Powergamers whine like the whole universe is being sucked in to a black hole...
... and the more diverse players, that have larger collections of Tyranids (and play other lists than Nidzilla), tend to find the new codex more appealing.

Way to generalize. I don't powergame and have a hugely diverse set of models. I could just as easily say that players who have been playing since 2nd edition tend to dislike the new codex and people who have only been playing for a couple years or have never played before don't have the experience to spot the glaring flaws in the fluff and the rules. It's not any more or less true than your statement in general, but it's definitely true for a few people.

Commander Zane
17-01-2010, 03:24
Way to generalize. I don't powergame and have a hugely diverse set of models. I could just as easily say that players who have been playing since 2nd edition tend to dislike the new codex and people who have only been playing for a couple years or have never played before don't have the experience to spot the glaring flaws in the fluff and the rules. It's not any more or less true than your statement in general, but it's definitely true for a few people.

like iv said before on this thread, powergamers is what made me stop collecting nids, im glad that people wont be able to use power lists......for now that is, but at least they wont be any where as strong

naloth
17-01-2010, 03:34
A Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard as if it were an Independent Character, and so follows the rules for joining and leaving units as given on page 48 of the 40k rulebook.

As for how you treat the Hive Tyrant, it is effectively like the guy with a flamer in a Tactical Squad. It cannot be chosen as a target independent of the unit. While it is a Monstrous Creature, it is not an Independent Character. This is true even when it has joined a brood of Tyrant Guard the way an Independent Character could.

While I can support this interpretation it's not what I would have guessed on first reading. That implies that the Hive Tyrant couldn't be picked out for shooting or CC which (while reasonable) makes it more like a retinue that he can voluntarily join or leave. Of course, it could be that I despise the alternative explanation (that he joins them as an IC in all respects and can therefore be picked out since he's a MC) as it makes the Tyrant Guard pretty worthless.

I'm trying hard to warm up to the new Hive Tyrant but at ~300 points you either get a slow, durable walker <or> a flyer that's pretty fragile. Life would have been so good if "Toxic Miasma" was a 5+ cover save instead...

azimaith
17-01-2010, 04:01
The new hive tyrant is probably my least favorite of everything. Yes, carnifex are expensive and all, but the hive tyrant can easily make 300 points. Without the option for a mycetic spore it gets painfully slow. The cheapest I can manage is a 230 point winged hive tyrant. The psychic powers are nice (Paroxysm means that nearly every unit in close combat with the unit you hit with it will hit on 5+), leech essence is sort of meh.
d3 s3 shots with ap2? You're not that likely to get a wound back there. The leadership one seems interesting, at least against models like other tyranids or perhaps tau and guard, but with only one power a turn on anything but the swarmlord.

Acid blood+Lash whips is of course a winner. It seems like the new tyranids are supposed to function more like orks with their big guys slogging slowly up the field.

Bolter Bait
17-01-2010, 06:35
The new hive tyrant is probably my least favorite of everything. Yes, carnifex are expensive and all, but the hive tyrant can easily make 300 points. Without the option for a mycetic spore it gets painfully slow. The cheapest I can manage is a 230 point winged hive tyrant. The psychic powers are nice (Paroxysm means that nearly every unit in close combat with the unit you hit with it will hit on 5+), leech essence is sort of meh.
d3 s3 shots with ap2? You're not that likely to get a wound back there. The leadership one seems interesting, at least against models like other tyranids or perhaps tau and guard, but with only one power a turn on anything but the swarmlord.

Acid blood+Lash whips is of course a winner. It seems like the new tyranids are supposed to function more like orks with their big guys slogging slowly up the field.Just wrote up a sample list to try to use as many of my models "as is." Hive Tyrant is painful at 295 points before adding Guard. But, my Hive Tyrant is a less-than-cost-effective-but-definitely-old-school-classy "Overlord" with VC + Lashwhip and Bonesword. The extras are insanely expensive. All the points I save with cheaper Hormagaunts get eaten up by the Hive Commander ability and a few extras. Without wings, I cannot see a Tyrant without Guard, especially when for just 20 points more than the 2+ save, a single Guard adds more T6 wounds.

azimaith
17-01-2010, 06:39
Thats exactly how I feel about it. My army doesn't feel bigger (smaller actually) because I need some big hitters but you have to choose between warmed up mac and cheese (tyranid prime) or beluga caviar on a solid gold platter (Tyrant)

At least before you could just settle for a nice new york steak, does the job well but doesn't require a mortgage.

Oh by the way, have you all looked at the lictor, I think he's going to be a pretty impressive vehicle smusher. Stealth helps him hide from the vehicles guns while his new fleet rule lets him catch nearly all vehicles that try to run away. The flesh hooks can glance rear armor too.

Bolter Bait
17-01-2010, 06:55
Oh by the way, have you all looked at the lictor, I think he's going to be a pretty impressive vehicle smusher. Stealth helps him hide from the vehicles guns while his new fleet rule lets him catch nearly all vehicles that try to run away. The flesh hooks can glance rear armor too.Eh, the Lictor was one of the models I had to cut from the new list to keep it under 2000 (above that limit and everything gets too silly). Same with 3 Biovores, a whole Tyrant Guard and potentially replacing all my Spinegaunts with Termagants (which I won't and my attitude will instead be "If it's a Gaunt on all fours, it's a Termagant with a fleshborer and if it's leaping, it's a Hormagant, ignore the weapons, they're just there to help everyone tell the broods apart :shifty:).

But hey, my FW Trygon is now street-legal without needing opponent's permission or lugging around IA:4. That's totally worth cutting 2.5 broods for it, right? Right? :cries:

Egaeus
17-01-2010, 07:18
Just wrote up a sample list to try to use as many of my models "as is." Hive Tyrant is painful at 295 points before adding Guard. But, my Hive Tyrant is a less-than-cost-effective-but-definitely-old-school-classy "Overlord" with VC + Lashwhip and Bonesword. The extras are insanely expensive. All the points I save with cheaper Hormagaunts get eaten up by the Hive Commander ability and a few extras. Without wings, I cannot see a Tyrant without Guard, especially when for just 20 points more than the 2+ save, a single Guard adds more T6 wounds.

Actually one of the first things I did today when I got the Codex was a quick spreadsheet comparing the old Tyrant to the current one. With roughly the same stats a 4th ed Tyrant came in at about 150 points...wasn't quite "legal" since I gave it two powers as comparison to the current versions ability to pick two powers. So basically for 20 points you get two points more WS, the ability to re-roll 1s in CC (an ability Talons did not provide before) and an additional Psychic Power. Although the old Bonesword did let you use Catalyst and all of the current powers are Shooting abilities so it becomes something of a wash.

Apart from not being able to field a "cheapo" tyrant I'm much less concerned about it's cost after doing that analysis. Plus it seems the Warrior Prime can be a nice trade-off if you want to run a "cheap" HQ...

I figured I can run my 2nd Ed Tryant as the base Tyrant with the VC trade-off...although as I mentioned it feels rather expensive to give it a gun when all of its powers are Shooting (good things MCs can fire two weapons)...for just under 200 points. So I'm really not all that displeased.

Now the Carnifex on the other hand... :rolleyes:

azimaith
17-01-2010, 07:23
The Old tyrants upgrade for wings was 20 points cheaper and that is *imminently relevant*.

You also need to look at the usefulness. 2 points of WS isn't all that useful, you plain don't fight much that's WS 7. If it were WS9 base at least you could claim better survivability against WS4 but you fall one short. WS5 and WS8 are identical to anyone whose not WS3 or WS5 or higher.

If a tyranid prime had the option to take wings this would be a moot point because then you'd have the tyrant for big games and the prime for medium-small games. As of now you've basically got the parasite.

I mean for 182 points I could be using a WS5 S6 tyrant with 5 attacks, wings, and a 2+/6++. But now you've got to get a tyrant bloated with a bunch of stuff, some of which, will typically, not ever come into play.

LKHERO
17-01-2010, 07:33
The only thing that really irks me right now is:

- Carnifex cannot buy 2+ armor.
- Tyrant Guard are completely useless. They are Infantry protecting a MC? How the hell does this even worK?
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240278

Damocles8
17-01-2010, 07:49
so why do people not want to use biovores?

azimaith
17-01-2010, 07:51
I can think of two reasons.
1: I've got plenty of stuff that will eat light infantries face already without them.
2: I don't want to drop scattering templates (often more than normal) onto enemies when I'm swarming at them to enter melee with units perfectly suited to being annihilated by said templates.
(At least with ork boom guns everyone dies horribly)

Ulrig
17-01-2010, 07:55
I received my codex in today. My initial response is I like that they added a whole new range of big baddies. Some of the psychic powers are dead sexy. Just about all the special characters are really bad ass.

What I dislike is the huge points increase of the MCs and the reduction of 2+saves.

I never played nidzilla once, not once...but the price increase of the Carnifex just does not add up, they suck so much compared to the new MCS for the points cost. I am itching for companies to start releasing conversion kits for the fex.

3+ Save in place of a 2+ in most cases is huge. It was already frustrating of having MCs picked to death on their slow crawl to action...now its going to be so much worse. A fair amount of Str 4 Shots will hurt the fex and the like with ease. People keep comparing our MCs to tanks, to justify everything. What they fail to mention is tanks do not fall victim to random ass weak shots from common troops.

azimaith
17-01-2010, 08:08
I received my codex in today. My initial response is I like that they added a whole new range of big baddies. Some of the psychic powers are dead sexy. Just about all the special characters are really bad ass.

What I dislike is the huge points increase of the MCs and the reduction of 2+saves.

The 2+ saves were a little over the top if you ask me, the cost increase way *way* out of line.



I never played nidzilla once, not once...but the price increase of the Carnifex just does not add up, they suck so much compared to the new MCS for the points cost. I am itching for companies to start releasing conversion kits for the fex.

3+ Save in place of a 2+ in most cases is huge. It was already frustrating of having MCs picked to death on their slow crawl to action...now its going to be so much worse. A fair amount of Str 4 Shots will hurt the fex and the like with ease. People keep comparing our MCs to tanks, to justify everything. What they fail to mention is tanks do not fall victim to random ass weak shots from common troops.
About 28 bolter shots for a wound on a carni. That doesn't include the plasma shots and the like.

A carnifex certainly isn't anything near an AV14 vehicle who really only needs to fear one weapon type (melta, well now melta and zoanthropes and even then basically has a 3+ invuln save (on 5-6 result in destroyed)

The cost increase is ridiculous and all the while somehow, they count as being as valuable as 6 wound creatures that spawn other models and give everyone around them special rules?

Both the Tyrant and the Carnifex got boned by the price increases.

Ulrig
17-01-2010, 08:14
About 28 bolter shots for a wound on a carni. That doesn't include the plasma shots and the like.



I am sure you had a fancy way of calculating that out, but in games it is much different. At toughness 7 my fex was getting hurt...all the time. The 2+save is the only thing that made it halfway playable.

azimaith
17-01-2010, 08:31
Well its not that its different during games, the laws of probability do not change, but the biggest thing you need to watch for with Mathhammer is application.

On average, you will need 28 bolter shots to put a wound on a 3+ fex. That doesn't mean you can't take 50 shots and not lose anything or take 4 wounds and lose it all. The probability typically shows itself over the long course of multiple games.

If you want to test it grab 28 dice and roll over and over again till you get a good sample (say 30) and see what it averages out to be.

cotillion989
17-01-2010, 08:33
- Tyrant Guard are completely useless. They are Infantry protecting a MC? How the hell does this even worK?
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240278

Tyrant guard are great. Plus it says in the codex that it basically works as a unit where the tyrant works as an independent character. 2 Tyrant guard allows your squad to get coves (including the monstrous creature) and if you run regen like me it will give you time to regen some of your early wounds.

Egaeus
17-01-2010, 09:11
Tyrant guard are great. Plus it says in the codex that it basically works as a unit where the tyrant works as an independent character. 2 Tyrant guard allows your squad to get coves (including the monstrous creature) and if you run regen like me it will give you time to regen some of your early wounds.

Tyrant Guard got worse and more expensive (and I thought they were overpriced before being essentially extra wounds). With the high base price of the Tyrant giving it Guard just makes a unit that has the potential to be a massive pointsink.

Also to make clear once the Tyrant has joined the Guard they become a single unit and the Tyrant is not treated as an IC in a unit. Just had this discussion in this thread a bit earlier and in the Rules forum (at least I think it was this thread...:confused:)

Jarogr
17-01-2010, 09:30
I have a question. I havn't found in the codex that tyrant gaurds must acompany tyrant. Does it mean that when I have a tyrant I can take guards as a separate unit?

azimaith
17-01-2010, 10:28
Yes if you like. 180 points of rending toughness six strength 5 scything talon armed guard rampaging around while a flying tyrant goes off on his own doesn't seem like a bad thing by any stretch.

herr_nilzzon
17-01-2010, 19:05
Way to generalize. I don't powergame and have a hugely diverse set of models. I could just as easily say that players who have been playing since 2nd edition tend to dislike the new codex and people who have only been playing for a couple years or have never played before don't have the experience to spot the glaring flaws in the fluff and the rules. It's not any more or less true than your statement in general, but it's definitely true for a few people.

Sure, it's a gerneralization, and as such, there will always be exceptions. But my comment was made after reading this and other similar threads at other forums.

I've been playing since 1st Ed Rogue Trader and have loved Tyranids ever since 2nd Ed Codex was released. But I am not the slightest bit sad that the army have been balanced and have evolved. 2nd Ed nids was truly horrible to behold and a real powergaming army, in a gernerally really powergaming edition.

Still can't comment on the fluff yet, but I have seen a major change (usually for the worse) over the different editions in almost all armies, and would suspect a similar fate for 5th Ed Nids.

But I'll get my own codex tomorrow and might cheer/sob after reading it. Just getting a Trygon is worth cheering! :D

Reinholt
17-01-2010, 19:56
My view so far:

Better for 'casual' gamers.

Worse for anyone who cares about competitive balance.


There are several good things about the book: units that were previously unplayable (like the Biovore) are now playable, there are a greater variety of builds that all perform at the same power level, and there is more than one viable choice for some of the slots that previously where pretty much monopolized. The troops section of the book was also upgraded with the warriors and the tervigon joining the mix.

There are also a lot of bad things about the book: the carnifex is an overpriced joke of a unit, a lot of the small gribblies are cheap without providing any real value, several of the old guys are very overpriced now (like the tyrant), and the only lists I would expect to see at tournaments are either going to be the stealer-shock list (still kicking) with different MC's supporting them this time, or the Tervigon spam list to overwhelm the opponent with high toughness wounds.

What bugs me the most is that some very basic flaws (like "Hey, these points costs aren't even close to being balanced between these two units!") could have been fixed almost immediately, but they chose not to. That strikes me as just lazy and poorly done.

Several of the new units are also inexplicably weird in terms of rules (Venomthrope, Pyrovore), and from a business perspective, I strongly object to spending the money to make new models, and then having them suck so people won't want to buy them. Whomever was responsible for that should be canned.

GW's quality control was poor.

Darkangeldentist
17-01-2010, 23:12
That the nid and guard books were written by the same person is obvious and I would say they are fairly similar in terms of balance and power.

The price hike to the tyrant and carnifex should have been expected but it does appear to have gone overboard particularly for the carnifex. There are some very odd prices for some upgrades. (Deathspitters on the tyrant for example. The points for venomthropes and pyrovores as many have mentioned seem exhorbitent for such mediocre support units but I can see some uses. The drop in cost for many of the little gribblies has meant that most mixed lists that use a wide variety of units and not many monsters means that you don't have to change a lot to accomodate the new rules and points.

The army has changed but still works pretty well and I will enjoy playing around with the various units seeing how many ways I can make a successful all-comers list. I will still use a tyrant as my main HQ, his price hike isn't going to stop him being an important part of my armies. I do think my carnifex is going to disappear until I can change a pair of arms and maybe buy another carnifex. I do think they can work, either in units or dropped in via mycetic spore. (Spore and bio-plasma I can see being pretty effective.)

I am happy enough that there doesn't appear too many obviously undercosted and/or overly effective units. Tervigons seem the only undercosted/overpowered unit since it has so many very useful abilities whilst remaining not that expensive.

Souleater
17-01-2010, 23:17
I would not be surprised to see a Tervigon kit in the second wave.

I can only assume they didn't release one now so as to sell a few more Fex kits while avoiding a dent in Trygon sales.

Zanzibarthefirst
18-01-2010, 00:36
A tervigon seems to be quite easy to convert, from the pics it looks like a carnifex with birthing spores on its chest. There isnt really much that you can do for a second weave, maybe a tyrannofex but i woudlnt want plastic t be wasted creating such rubbish. A sprue with lots of boneswords for warriors is all that I want. Oh and maybe some spores although i dont see them as the most useful thing in the codex.

Vepr
18-01-2010, 00:56
Depending on the acid blood ruling in the FAQ the pyrovore could have some uses as a drop suicide squad maybe. The venomthrope could be nice but keeping them alive is going to be a chore.

One thing I thought was really odd on the venomthrope was the BS. Why in the world does the venomthrope have a BS of 4? I hope to hell that was not figured into the points cost. :wtf:

chaos0xomega
18-01-2010, 01:00
The lack of a 2+ save on the carnifex is actually a big issue. In fact, it seems that the only model that can get it is the tyrannofex and the hive tyrant, which is silly because the carnifex is bigger than the tyrant, and more likely to need the save than the tyrannofex.

Solar_Eclipse
18-01-2010, 01:16
I dont see what some people are complaining about. Just idly looking through the codex i made a 2000 point list which consisted of a Swarmlord, 4 Tervigons, a Trygon, 3 units of 30 Termagaunts, 3 zoanthropes and 3 Venomthropes.

Most turns each unit of Termagants will have a 5+ cover save a Feel No pain, while gaining Adrenal glands and Toxin sacs from the Tervigons and other bonuses like Preferred enemy from the Swarmlords.

This is just fricking nasty army, 5 Monstrous creatures, 6 medium Critters and 90 Infantry, which increases from the Tervigons!!

Commander Zane
18-01-2010, 01:25
I dont see what some people are complaining about. Just idly looking through the codex i made a 2000 point list which consisted of a Swarmlord, 4 Tervigons, a Trygon, 3 units of 30 Termagaunts, 3 zoanthropes and 3 Venomthropes.

Most turns each unit of Termagants will have a 5+ cover save a Feel No pain, while gaining Adrenal glands and Toxin sacs from the Tervigons and other bonuses like Preferred enemy from the Swarmlords.

This is just fricking nasty army, 5 Monstrous creatures, 6 medium Critters and 90 Infantry, which increases from the Tervigons!!

i think the problem is no ones ever really happy, people will always find some thing to bitch about new codexs/armies. but iv not had a look at the new codex but thats sounds like a good list youv made there

Max Jet
18-01-2010, 01:35
I dont see what some people are complaining about. Just idly looking through the codex i made a 2000 point list which consisted of a Swarmlord, 4 Tervigons, a Trygon, 3 units of 30 Termagaunts, 3 zoanthropes and 3 Venomthropes.

Most turns each unit of Termagants will have a 5+ cover save a Feel No pain, while gaining Adrenal glands and Toxin sacs from the Tervigons and other bonuses like Preferred enemy from the Swarmlords.

This is just fricking nasty army, 5 Monstrous creatures, 6 medium Critters and 90 Infantry, which increases from the Tervigons!!

That is propably because you are neglecting a lot of things in that list, tactics, simple rules, hidden rules, the boni you may loose pretty easily and the movements of your army as a whole.
The swarmlord creates a 12" Dead zone, that most of your enemy army will not enter. I don't know wether it is worth 300 Points just to contest an objective. Meanwhile 300 points are a lot. Your enemy can play quite decently with it, only half of this points are enough to shoot Strength 8 weapons from far away at the Venomthropes and kill them all in turn 2. (Assuming you do it right and screen them with gaunts it requires only 6 S8+ Hits to kill all of them) With them gone (along with 165 points) gaunts no longer can claim any cover save, 8-10 of them will die with every pie plate, you only need to kill half of them in order to strip them from their hitting power. Perhaps more if you added Biomorphs to them but they sure are a point sink then and you have obsoleted more points with every pie plate hit.
Now the Tervigons are a problem as they boost the gaunts granted, but this is what they do, besides their second use. Soak up fire. BUT as long as you don't prepare to kill them but rather concentrate your army on the other creatures you can kill rather easily after defeating the Venomthropes (It really is easy to take them from the field on turn 2) you can concentrate your fire again on the Trygon, and the Termagants.
I suggest letting the Zoanthropes try to fall down with their drop spore, they will not really make their points back unless the enemy takes Land Raiders. One charge later they are gone.. the whole 220 point unit being obsolete.
The army itself needs the synergy to stay effective, little elements however can be taken out from it quite easily. first the Venomthropes, than the gaunts. The Zoanthropes immideatly by charging them.. what is ONE WS3 Hit per Zoanthrope going to do anyway? With only the outofgaunts Tervigons and the Swarm Tyrant left what shall this army do?
Easy to beat by taking away the units required for a combined attack and ignoring the slow and low range threats.. One tank lost and one squad by the Trygon, these are about the most expensive losses one can expect.. perhaps 3 tied up units from Gaunts but not even killed.

itcamefromthedeep
18-01-2010, 01:53
I dont see what some people are complaining about. Just idly looking through the codex i made a 2000 point list which consisted of a Swarmlord, 4 Tervigons, a Trygon, 3 units of 30 Termagaunts, 3 zoanthropes and 3 Venomthropes.

Most turns each unit of Termagants will have a 5+ cover save a Feel No pain, while gaining Adrenal glands and Toxin sacs from the Tervigons and other bonuses like Preferred enemy from the Swarmlords.

This is just fricking nasty army, 5 Monstrous creatures, 6 medium Critters and 90 Infantry, which increases from the Tervigons!!
That's six monstrous creatures you have there.

The close combat punch comes from the Swarmlord and Trygon, and that's about it. It also suffers from a lack of ranged anti-tank weaponry. It's playable, but not exactly UKGT material. 35 Wounds at T6 and a 3+ save has been handled before, and the Gaunts aren't all that threatening.

Vineas
18-01-2010, 02:01
I can't actually wait to try them out. Inaugural battle in 2 weekends (30th) with a Tryon (still thinking Prime), a brood of 2 Screamer-killers and an old school Tyrant with LW/BS/VC.

Thinking I'll give him +1 to reserve ability to help my Lictors and Deathleaper get on board faster.

I KNOW I'm going to have fun with this codex, more than I did the previous one.

Skyth
18-01-2010, 02:26
Let's look at the models I have and the effects of the new codex.

Tyrant (VC/Scything Talons) - Worse. Got more expensive.
Tyrant Guard (RC/ST) - Worse. Got more expensive.
Warriors (RC/ST) - Worse. Got more expensive and are vulnerable to instant death now.
Genestealers - Wash, probably worse. Got a little cheaper, and infiltrate, but are bolter bait now. Also, squad size got bigger (Negative in my mind as I would have to listen to whining about my squads not being full sized)
Spinegaunts - Worse. More expensive and lost fleet.
Termagaunts - Wash. Less expensive, but lost fleet.
Rippers - Better...Can now score (Unless I'm wrong)
Ravener - Bit Better...Less expensive, but can be easily insta-gibbed now.
Zoanthropes - Much better, and cheaper
Dakkafex - Worse ... More expensive
Sniperfex - Horrible...Not even legal any more.

Not very impressed by new codex.

Vaktathi
18-01-2010, 02:35
How are warriors worse? They are more expensive, but far more capable and survivable against anything that doesn't inflict instant death. That and being Troops that pack as much CC punch as SM HQ's, aside from having only a 4+ save (which isn't terrible), they aren't that bad. Not having EW hurts, but synapse troops with psychic defense sporting excellent shooting and CC capabilities, they aren't terrible.

Zanzibarthefirst
18-01-2010, 02:46
I've been reading the tactica forum and there is some argument for the tyrannofex being a good unit. it looks like Cruddace has saw the hierodule and thought that that would be good in the codex but then forgot what the hierodule actually does. A large long-ranged living tank is fine but given that the writer had also written the IG codex, he should know the kind of power a tank should have. To me it seems that Cruddace wanted Nids to focus on CC yet not really give them any extraordinary CC power. Why is it that the codex only have 2 weapons that have an AP lower than 4. If Cruddance wanted to make the tyrannofex work, a low ap weapon would have been better, maybe an assault 2 lascannon.

Another thinkg about the tyrannofex is the background, ti has already been mentioned that an eloborate story about the ruputre cannon is created yet its profile is plain. Another point i'd like to pick out is that when T'fex is under threat it released pheromones to attract the swarm to defend it. This is fine but couldnt this be in the rules.

The tyrannofex is a stupidly written creature. it has a thorax swarm wepoan that is close range, , spines which are close range, acid sprays and hives which are also short ranged yet it also has the most powerful wepaon with the longest rang ein the nid codex which makes no sense at all, fair enough some defensive weapons but why only 1 offensive AT weapon?


EDIT: I dont think rippers can score. Isnt there a rule in in the rulebok saying swarms cannot cliam objectives
Cruddace, what were you smoking when you invented the Tyrannofex?

chaos0xomega
18-01-2010, 02:48
He was probably thinking that it would be moving forward with the rest of the army.

Zanzibarthefirst
18-01-2010, 02:59
He was probably thinking that it would be moving forward with the rest of the army.

He thinks one thing and then writes another :rolleyes:. There are some good bits and im sure there will eb parts that play well but with too many no-brainer optiuons and too amny stupid options I ahve to question his ability as a writer. IG may just have been a case of beginners luck

Egaeus
18-01-2010, 02:59
I dont see what some people are complaining about. Just idly looking through the codex i made a 2000 point list which consisted of a Swarmlord, 4 Tervigons, a Trygon, 3 units of 30 Termagaunts, 3 zoanthropes and 3 Venomthropes.

Well one thing that others haven't pointed out is that from aside from teh Termagants and Zoanthropes everything else in that list is a brand new entry that is either going to be a new purchase or a conversion.

Not bad if you're just starting 'Nids but not so nice if you've already got a good-sized collection of models.

Solar_Eclipse
18-01-2010, 03:02
The swarmlord creates a 12" Dead zone, that most of your enemy army will not enter. I don't know wether it is worth 300 Points just to contest an objective. Meanwhile 300 points are a lot. Your enemy can play quite decently with it, only half of this points are enough to shoot Strength 8 weapons from far away at the Venomthropes and kill them all in turn 2. (Assuming you do it right and screen them with gaunts it requires only 6 S8+ Hits to kill all of them) With them gone (along with 165 points) gaunts no longer can claim any cover save, 8-10 of them will die with every pie plate, you only need to kill half of them in order to strip them from their hitting power. Perhaps more if you added Biomorphs to them but they sure are a point sink then and you have obsoleted more points with every pie plate hit.
Now the Tervigons are a problem as they boost the gaunts granted, but this is what they do, besides their second use. Soak up fire. BUT as long as you don't prepare to kill them but rather concentrate your army on the other creatures you can kill rather easily after defeating the Venomthropes (It really is easy to take them from the field on turn 2) you can concentrate your fire again on the Trygon, and the Termagants.
I suggest letting the Zoanthropes try to fall down with their drop spore, they will not really make their points back unless the enemy takes Land Raiders. One charge later they are gone.. the whole 220 point unit being obsolete.
The army itself needs the synergy to stay effective, little elements however can be taken out from it quite easily. first the Venomthropes, than the gaunts. The Zoanthropes immideatly by charging them.. what is ONE WS3 Hit per Zoanthrope going to do anyway? With only the outofgaunts Tervigons and the Swarm Tyrant left what shall this army do?
Easy to beat by taking away the units required for a combined attack and ignoring the slow and low range threats.. One tank lost and one squad by the Trygon, these are about the most expensive losses one can expect.. perhaps 3 tied up units from Gaunts but not even killed.

I dont get what your saying.

"Your Guard list is crappy when i take out all of its tanks and heavy weapons"

Yes...thats why i dont let you do those things.

Charge the Zoanthropes? Sure! With what? And are you sure you can kill them in the turn before they get countercharged?

Sure, 30 Feel no pain 5+ cover save counter charging Furious charging Poisoned Termagants is nothing, right?

...

Im saying the army as a whole has real potential if you use the right combinations of units to buff all the ones around them.

axelarater
18-01-2010, 03:06
I managed to fit more nids in the new dex :)

Skyth
18-01-2010, 03:11
How are warriors worse? They are more expensive, but far more capable and survivable against anything that doesn't inflict instant death. That and being Troops that pack as much CC punch as SM HQ's, aside from having only a 4+ save (which isn't terrible), they aren't that bad. Not having EW hurts, but synapse troops with psychic defense sporting excellent shooting and CC capabilities, they aren't terrible.

The extra wound washes with not being immune to instant death. Left is them being more expensive (I didn't really gain any significant combat benefit) or not having the option of a 12" charge any more. With Zoans and Tyrants around, having Shadows isn't that much of an extra bonus.

I didn't say they were terrible, just worse than they were. All in all, I'd rather have warriors that did what they used to do for thier old price than the new ones. And I am specifically talking about the models that I have, not the options that might be.

Egaeus
18-01-2010, 04:22
I didn't say they were terrible, just worse than they were. All in all, I'd rather have warriors that did what they used to do for thier old price than the new ones. And I am specifically talking about the models that I have, not the options that might be.

Not sure what exactly you ran but the 5th Ed "stock" Warriors are actually 3 points cheaper than comparable 4th Edition Models (4 points cheaper if you give them Rending Claws). The BS upgrade is included in the profile so is something of a wash on a CC-only configuration and you can't increase them to flat S5 or I5 although TS gives them that on the charge for a price comparable of that to of those particular biomorphs.

They also got Shadow in the Warp and became troops which could arguably affect their pricing, but if it did it wasn't by much.

The biggest issue to me is whether or not the change to 3W from 2W/EW is really a good thing or not...my gut tells me not as they now suffer from the problem that made GW give them EW in the first place...susceptibility to Instant Death and the fact that the majority of weapons that will ID them will punch though their save.

But then we can say they're "just" a Troop unit now so not competing as an Elite unit.

Freman Bloodglaive
18-01-2010, 04:49
If you didn't lose the bits that came with your various models then it should be possible to rearm them without buying new models. I had to do that when my Rune Priest could no longer take lightning claws, and most of the power fists in my Space Wolves had to go.

azimaith
18-01-2010, 05:01
Charge the Zoanthropes? Sure! With what? And are you sure you can kill them in the turn before they get countercharged?

At ws3 s3 you need like 37 attacks to drop it in one turn, on average in cc.
At WS4 S4 you need like 18 attacks on average.

A naked 10 man guard squad puts out 21 attacks on the charge.
A naked marine squad is 21 attacks as well. So that's obvious.

The same guard squad, of course, if can charge, could have also shot and needed 37 shots.
If they had an officer nearby of course that changes too. In any case, the zoanthrope probably will live till the end of its first turn in CC then die in the following on average rolls allowing you one turn to save the zoanthrope in your assault phase before its most likely dead.


[quote]
Sure, 30 Feel no pain 5+ cover save counter charging Furious charging Poisoned Termagants is nothing, right?[quote]
30 gaunts covered by a venomthrope is a waste of points. You may as well just cover the same squad with 11 other gaunts and provide a superior cover save thats harder to kill. The venomthrope is basically a joke.

Skyth
18-01-2010, 05:40
Not sure what exactly you ran but the 5th Ed "stock" Warriors are actually 3 points cheaper than comparable 4th Edition Models (4 points cheaper if you give them Rending Claws). The BS upgrade is included in the profile so is something of a wash on a CC-only configuration and you can't increase them to flat S5 or I5 although TS gives them that on the charge for a price comparable of that to of those particular biomorphs.

They also got Shadow in the Warp and became troops which could arguably affect their pricing, but if it did it wasn't by much.

The biggest issue to me is whether or not the change to 3W from 2W/EW is really a good thing or not...my gut tells me not as they now suffer from the problem that made GW give them EW in the first place...susceptibility to Instant Death and the fact that the majority of weapons that will ID them will punch though their save.

But then we can say they're "just" a Troop unit now so not competing as an Elite unit.


I forgot the +1ws (Never took it), but the old ones are still cheaper (By a point). As for just a troop, I have only one elite unit (Zoeys)...So having them elite isn't that big of a deal.

Solar_Eclipse
18-01-2010, 06:13
At ws3 s3 you need like 37 attacks to drop it in one turn, on average in cc.
At WS4 S4 you need like 18 attacks on average.

A naked 10 man guard squad puts out 21 attacks on the charge.
A naked marine squad is 21 attacks as well. So that's obvious.

The same guard squad, of course, if can charge, could have also shot and needed 37 shots.
If they had an officer nearby of course that changes too. In any case, the zoanthrope probably will live till the end of its first turn in CC then die in the following on average rolls allowing you one turn to save the zoanthrope in your assault phase before its most likely dead.

Becuase i enjoy leaving important units in places where they are easily shot and/or charged?


30 gaunts covered by a venomthrope is a waste of points. You may as well just cover the same squad with 11 other gaunts and provide a superior cover save thats harder to kill. The venomthrope is basically a joke.

But a Venomthrope that covers 3 units of gaunts and a tervigon?

See where im going?

Gutlord Grom
18-01-2010, 06:18
Becuase i enjoy leaving important units in places where they are easily shot and/or charged? While mathhammer is technically in a void, I would also like to point out that your Zoans are going to have to , as the phrase goes, "get up in their grillzizle"to be effective, which is usually optimal shooting range for most units, and with luck, assault units have a fair chance of getting at them. So expect to get assaulted and shot.




But a Venomthrope that covers 3 units of gaunts and a tervigon?

See where im going?

And only has two wounds and thanks to TLOS is as easy target for the heavy weapons which will gun for its hide? And you can hide your Termas behind cheaper more expendable Termas for a better, tougher save.

azimaith
18-01-2010, 06:39
The venomthrope can be shot to death by one squad in one turn easily on an average roll. You're a lot better off forcing targets by closing in with termagants while shielding those termas with the venomthropes cost in termagant.

CthulhuDalek
18-01-2010, 07:08
I'm just going to agree with azimaith here.

Taking a venomthrope is basically throwing the enemy killpoints.

Turn 1-2 it's dead. If I'm playing against one, it WILL be dead before anything else.

It will only survive behind a carnifex brood, in which case, I'll still be laughing at my opponent for using a 'fex brood....

squeekenator
18-01-2010, 08:06
Why will a Venomthrope only survive if it's behind a brood of Carnifexes? Surely you can shield it just as easily with a single Carnifex, or any other monstrous creature. If he's taking Tervigons, he can just put the Venomthropes behind them and block line of sight to them completely. Easy.

azimaith
18-01-2010, 08:12
Tervigons are not solid pillars, they are carnifex models on spider legs, you can see under them.

genestealer_baldric
18-01-2010, 09:42
they have gotten rid of alot of the biomorphs and replaced them with genric rule which dont fit the nids as well as the previous codex.

lost some unit specific rules which will realy hurt there effectivness

They have screwed up my 2 favorite units in 40k, stealers and carnifexs

its all about MC`s now or more precisley the new MC's , meaning more spaming nidzillas but we have to buy these new ones.

Units

Venomthrope- pointless
Pyrovore- pointless
Harpy- mediocre at best
Garygolyes- slighty better
Stealer- screwed up compleately
Carnifex- Screwed up and got more expensive
Hive Tyrant- Got better
Swarm Lord / other Special - amazing But quite expensive
Biovore - still not going to be used
Lictor- Improved
Raveners- stilll very expensive
Gaunts/hormagaunts - improved slightley
Rippers- stilll pointless
Zonthropes- Alot better
Warriors- bad and good probbaly overall better.
Terrofex- good but very expensive
(Carnifex thing that spawns gaunts)- bit silly
Tyrgon/maloc- probbaly the best of the new stuff
Broodlord is pointless

Weapons

All the previous wepons have been nerfed or changed into a compleatley diffrent thing for no apprent reason.


a few new good ones but all there are almost exactly the same as the ig codex but with a diffrent name

the guy who wrote the codex just renamed things in the IG codex drew a new picture and called them a nid, i got the feeling that the guy knows genrraly what nids are but has never played them more than once.

The new SW codex was 99% improvement and made things work

This Codex Overall is *********** rubbish iam now iam stuck with it for the next 5 years, i wonder if i can still use the previous codex at least that was thought through better.

and ive got a feeling alot of people will abonden nids after this it could cause a bad knock on effect for the game.

azimaith
18-01-2010, 10:35
Venomthrope- pointless

Yes


Pyrovore- pointless

Basically


Harpy- mediocre at best

TL S9 gun or TL S6 large blast isn't bad. Overpriced.


Garygolyes- slighty better

Way way better.


Stealer- screwed up compleately

Still good if not better at killing.


Carnifex- Screwed up and got more expensive

Ruined by price increase. Terrible.


Hive Tyrant- Got better

Ruined by price increase, not as terrible as the carnifex, but still not good. Used for lack of another option that flies and denies armor saves in the HQ slot.


Swarm Lord / other Special - amazing But quite expensive

Standard SC>anything normal.


Biovore - still not going to be used

Much better.


Lictor- Improved

Still sucks, gained a wound lost more from the cover save and has to stand around to get gunned down first. Still subject to IB, Pheromone trail rules nearly worthless, flesh hooks a joke.
Huge disappointment.


Raveners- stilll very expensive

Still very good if not easy to kill. Deep striking them is still stupid and pointless.


Gaunts/hormagaunts - improved slightley

Gaunts barely improved. Spinegaunts ruined, horrible weapon choices outside the devourer for shots and the fleshborer because its free. Hormagaunts are much improved but much worse than gargoyles.


Rippers- stilll pointless

Even more retarded than before with them eating one another and costing the same.


Zonthropes- Alot better

Alot better anti-tank, worse support.


Warriors- bad and good probbaly overall better.

Still crap without Toughness 5 or much lower cost.


Terrofex- good but very expensive

Only one good gun option. Overpriced and lacks the ability to support the army outside of one gun.


(Carnifex thing that spawns gaunts)- bit silly

Good as a troops choice. Spawning gaunts is overrated.


Tyrgon/maloc- probbaly the best of the new stuff

Trygon, Trygon Prime, and Mawloc are all good. More than good enough to make carnifex look like retard choices.


Broodlord is pointless

Good but overpriced.

enterprise85
18-01-2010, 10:44
i've read the codex and as a non tyranid player, i'm not worried about the new codex at all

Max Jet
18-01-2010, 12:08
I dont get what your saying.

I'm saying your army only has good stats in terms of wounds. That's all. You cannot win a battle with just lots of wounds, that do nothing and one slow "Killemall" Character that does not even reach the enemy lines.


"Your Guard list is crappy when i take out all of its tanks and heavy weapons"

I think I have pointed out in my post that it is significantly easier to take out the most important things out of the Nid list you have written, than it is to take out all the weapons from the Guard list.


Yes...thats why i dont let you do those things.

I hope you realize that it is not so easy as it is in your Tyranid list, moreover the "heavy weapons" and Synergy units can be singled out effortlessly, still having greater costs and being lower in number than in your average guard list.


Charge the Zoanthropes? Sure! With what? And are you sure you can kill them in the turn before they get countercharged?

Azimaith has calculated that one out, his post is really good. Any decent unit is likely going to kill the unit or bind it until the end of the turn.
What is going to help the Zoanhtropes anyway? By turn 3 half of the gaunts will be missing and the Trygon cannot move faster than the Tervigons or it will loose synapse and charge a bait.


Sure, 30 Feel no pain 5+ cover save counter charging Furious charging Poisoned Termagants is nothing, right?

To repeat my point. The cover save can be taken away quite easily, with a S6 Pie Plate (almost any army has it) the gaunts don't get the "Feel no pain" And you will only need to kill about 45 in the entire game to ensure your victory.

...


Im saying the army as a whole has real potential if you use the right combinations of units to buff all the ones around them.

Yes and I am saying, that the right combinations can be broken by taking specific units out. First the Venomthropes (can be done very easily) then the Zoanthropes (Don't tell me you have no basic infantry with which you can bind them) and second the gaunts (so that the Tervigon Gaunt Symbiosis does not work any more). You can not do it that easily with the Guard Codex.

Zanzibarthefirst
18-01-2010, 13:32
They have screwed up my 2 favorite units in 40k, stealers and carnifexs


Which is basically my whole army



and ive got a feeling alot of people will abonden nids after this it could cause a bad knock on effect for the game.

Im not goin to abandon Nids but Im not going to spend a couple hundred quid buying a load of new models. I'll probably play a few gamnes every now and then but I think I might go back to my Orks instead

genestealer_baldric
18-01-2010, 13:48
Which is basically my whole army



Im not goin to abandon Nids but Im not going to spend a couple hundred quid buying a load of new models. I'll probably play a few gamnes every now and then but I think I might go back to my Orks instead

oh so you are the guy sitting next to me on the same boat. :)

Solar_Eclipse
18-01-2010, 13:56
I'm saying your army only has good stats in terms of wounds. That's all. You cannot win a battle with just lots of wounds, that do nothing and one slow "Killemall" Character that does not even reach the enemy lines.


Ive won a few Tournaments with my Krieg Guard, using pretty much only wounds as my only real winner, as i dont use Heavy weapons.


I think I have pointed out in my post that it is significantly easier to take out the most important things out of the Nid list you have written, than it is to take out all the weapons from the Guard list.

No you havnt, youve just said "i will kill them first" with no inclination that i will try to prevent said deaths through use of at least 1 of 4 casters of Feel no pain, Nice amounts of cover saves (oh and just because a Venomthrope is around doesnt mean i cant use normal cover aswell), Psychic powers which can reduce enemies Ws/Bs to 1 and a huge amount of Termagants to block enemy Charges. (Termagants with Furious charge, Counter Charge, Poisoned attacks, etc etc)


I hope you realize that it is not so easy as it is in your Tyranid list, moreover the "heavy weapons" and Synergy units can be singled out effortlessly, still having greater costs and being lower in number than in your average guard list.


Go ahead, single them out. So you focus fire and get swamped by bugs? Or hit the bugs (that have a kind of respawn) and get hit by the Larger critters which, while not as good as some, are still tough and nasty monstrous creatures.


Azimaith has calculated that one out, his post is really good. Any decent unit is likely going to kill the unit or bind it until the end of the turn.
What is going to help the Zoanhtropes anyway? By turn 3 half of the gaunts will be missing and the Trygon cannot move faster than the Tervigons or it will loose synapse and charge a bait.

Hmmm, no point answering this, since you cannot predict a strategy. Also, by the way, with all the cover, feel no pain and respawn, im still going to have a crapload of Gaunts

azimaith
18-01-2010, 16:01
I can predict logical courses of action, which would be to mow down the zoanthrope before it could do serious damage.

You say we can't predict strategy but this is not strategy, this is reason. If a zoanthrope is threatening and its alone (and threatening is enough) you go and put it down by whatever means you are willing to spare.

I don't think counting on your enemy to ignore something thats blasting his battle tanks is sound.

chaos0xomega
18-01-2010, 16:05
I'm just going to agree with azimaith here.

Taking a venomthrope is basically throwing the enemy killpoints.

Turn 1-2 it's dead. If I'm playing against one, it WILL be dead before anything else.

It will only survive behind a carnifex brood, in which case, I'll still be laughing at my opponent for using a 'fex brood....

Thats great, because my carnifex brood will steamroll your army, as it did to another friend who thought the same way the other day.

fwacho
18-01-2010, 21:16
I also got the codex and a few things struck me as interesting...

Pysker defense.
with a lot of synapse in your builds and lictors and genestealers and deathleaper; this army will not suffer that badly from psykers at all.

RIPPER BUILD,
rippers are scoring units. With the "parasite" as a leader you can put down a ton of rippers. Add in sky slashers and you are talking over 90 ripper bases and the parasite for under 1250 pts. that's almost 275 wounds!!! throw some adrenal glands on to let them hurt tanks and some synapse and 2000pt levels you can really be dangerous.

WARRIOR BUILD,
6 squads of 5 warriors right about 1000 pts, add in a prime and you've got a very valid core. just add in some can openers to ensure success

SPEED BUILD,
not really possible

DEEP STRIKE BUILD,
Very plausible. deep striking rippers for troops or spores for gaunt packs (dev gaunts preferable in at least 2) zoans in spores (no hive guard) lictors to help reserve rolls, pyrovore pack in spore to flush out a unit. tyrgons for tunnels, carni's in spores. raveners deep striking. very very Doable and flexible.

MC bUILD
3 TERVAGONS with 20 terms a piece under 900 pts 2 hive tyrants, 2 harpies, 2 fexes or mawlocs should bring you to about 2000pts or over over with upgrades 9 Mc's seem to be the most practical for 2000 pts.

HORDE.
2 terivgon's for HQ & 180 gaunts for under 1300pts. throw in some 60 gargoyles and a harpy for under 600 points and you still have room for one more synapse squad. very doable.

SYNERGY BUILDS
tervigons, tyrants, lictors, venomthropes, harpies, Tyranid Prime, Trygons, all these models contribute to the models around them in some way. There are some great mixes in here.

BUILD CONCLUSIONS...
there will be some nigh broken builds with this list. the plus side is that achieving those builds will take serious moolah so don't expect to see them anytime soon.


CARNIFEX
I was sad that I couldn't put toxic miasma on my fex. This would have helped him from being tar pitted. Still a dangerous model and equiped with a venom cannon becomes very reliable (and durable) tank hunter. The dakka fex is still a very viable option. particularly 2-3 together getting buffed from other models

Zoans...
the rumors are true. I'll be running a three pack in every game.

Gaunts...
DEV guants with mysetic spores offer some very tempting choice 60 shots is nothing to sneeze at. Termaguant are indeed cheap. I'll be running 49 of them to allow my Tervigon something to produce

TERVIGON...
It's slow enough that claws are tempting. "Catalyst" is way cool... Imagine 3 cari's om a brood getting feel no pain. toxic miasma may become a must to get it out of jams. "onslaught" has lots of potential for getting your troops in range.

Trygon /Trygon Prime
The temptation to just upgrade to the prime is going to be hard to resist even if it make it as expensive as a Landraider. Still runing a pair of trygons will be an effective way of running them for some time. the ability to open up dual tunnels and send reserves in from both tunnels has some possibilities.

Mawloch
relatively in-exspensive but is going to hit a lot less harder than the trygon for a warrior's base cost less. You really do have to multiple deep strike with it to get it's pts back.

Tyrannofex.
You won't see many of these. Without support it will get tar pitted an do nothing. Very weak in CC for it's points (more than a landraider) I really can't justify taking one in my army if I already have zoans and venom cannons.

Death Leaper,
This guy is competative with the lictors and with his half-night fight visibility he appears quite survivable. added to his ability to help protect you from psykers you'll see this model a lot.

Warriors
I like these guys. by them selves they'll get shot up. throw in some MC's and life get's a lot easier. they will usually come in at less than a terminator's point cost unless you buff them out to do more than one job.

Harpy
I would have one of these if I could conceive a way to model one. same base cost at as a carnifex. These guys have some serious synergy potential that will cause all kinds of havoc for your opponents. Sonic scream is just the perfect touch. It will make your gargoyles that much more effective.

Pyrovore
3 of these in a spore is probably the only way to use these. That said, the three of them plus spore would be as much as a 5 count warrior brood with death spitters. if they were use on flanks to get rids of low model count units they could be quite effective. GEC's are going to be scared out of thier mind by these guys.

Tyranid prime
This alpha warrior is a great bargain and will be standard in small games. don't be surprised to see him eqiupped with regeneration frequently as players have a few extra points laying around. Mine has scything talons and bone sword and lash whip.

Hope that helps someone

herr_nilzzon
18-01-2010, 21:56
Now I've read most of the codex and just think this thread is a whine-o-rama.

There seem to be a main thread in all complaints here.

1. 'I can't use my previous army. My powergaming combo's are taken care of'.
So? This is what usually happens when there is a new take on an army. What do you think happened to players armies back when 3rd Ed rules where released? That was really changing stuff. If you only just was like the Hive Mind and adapted instead?

2. 'Oh no!, They can instant kill my T4 creature with a Lascannon'.
So? Isn't there any other targets they also might shoot at? It's all about target priority and believe me, there'll be plenty to choose from, and some bad ass bug will make a mess of the enemy battleline. Like always, as a Tyranid player, there will be a round or two of just taking incoming fire before the retaliation begins. Just consider what one single unmodified carnifex in a mycetic spore in the mist of the enemy lines on round two will do? Combine that with a trygon emerging? Now who even cares if the shot at your venomthrope or zoanthropes? Your enemies focus will be elsewhere...

I even found out that Pyrovores are good while making a little playtest against an oponent that also read whining threads similar to this. I used a 'counts as' just to test it and since it was overlooked, I really swamped his marines with 3 heavy flamer shots followed by a charge... I sincerely hope that you guys play against something other than marines, since 3 pyros will be devastating against orks, tau and guard... and even mess up a few eldar.

Then I just don't understand the complaint about Shadow in the Warp. I read complaints about it being too short ranged? Now, really? My biggest fear is a Librarian, Farseer or similar coming up close with those nasty force weapons to one of your MC's.

This codex is truly about the hive fleet. It is about your ability to adapt and evolve. Lets just see how many of you that will make the next evolutionary cut... ;D

Torga_DW
18-01-2010, 22:41
I found the actual codex to be rather bland. Considering the nidz have on average bs 3, their guns seem rather expensive to me. I don't know, but after making several lists i just couldn't get in to them. I made room for a carnifex even, but people are right, they just don't compare to a trygon. S9 isn't that big a deal for a slow creature that is supposed to be anti-tank melee. I don't know, i just wasn't left with the urge to start an army. I like the look of the bugs, and the concepts. They are cool, theres no denying it. But overall it felt lacking somehow.

I'll be interested to see how it rates in coming GTs.

Darkangeldentist
18-01-2010, 22:52
I've tried to build a nidzilla list with the new codex. 1500pts and I think it still works, even more surprisingly it has carnifexes and venomthropes. Whilst I don't think it's a brutally unpleasant as the old nidzilla it look pretty nasty whilst remaining quite flexible.

Tervigon, couple of venomthropes, 40-50 gaunts, 2 Trygons and a brood of 3 carnifex. All fits into 1500pts and follows pretty much the same tactical pattern as the old nidzilla lists. March up the middle of the table until everything it in charge range and then swamp it. Unlike the old nidzilla though this one is focused on combat and it can dish it out pretty well. (All the 6 wound monsters have regeneration.)

Whilst I wouldn't say it's as nasty the old nidzilla it's not a walkover for anyone. The venomthropes provide cover and charge protection for the army whilst surrounded by monster to completely block line of sight to them. Moves up as big block and then splits once in charge range.

Jaxell
18-01-2010, 23:05
Hmmm, no point answering this, since you cannot predict a strategy. Also, by the way, with all the cover, feel no pain and respawn, im still going to have a crapload of Gaunts

Hah, I think I've finally found a reason to use a Leman Russ Eradicator!

Shipmonkey
18-01-2010, 23:52
rippers are scoring units.

Is there a special rule making them scoring?

Zanzibarthefirst
18-01-2010, 23:53
oh so you are the guy sitting next to me on the same boat. :)

Boat... don't you mean ship.

I started this thread not to whine but rather give my first impressions on a whole which were mostly quite positive. However as time has gone on and i've read the book more and morethe less I seem to like it.

I think people have a legimtate reason to complain when their army becomes unplayable or competitive, gamers spend a lto fo time, money and effort building an army and when you find out that those £25 models you have half a dozen of arent very good but wait these new £30 models are the business , it is a bit of a kick in the teeth. I only have £49 worth of models it is unlikely that i'll ever use which isnt too bad. Everyone knew a nerf to Nidzilla list was coming but the nerf seemed a little bit too harsh IMHO


Now I've read most of the codex and just think this thread is a whine-o-rama.

There seem to be a main thread in all complaints here.

1. 'I can't use my previous army. My powergaming combo's are taken care of'.
So? This is what usually happens when there is a new take on an army. What do you think happened to players armies back when 3rd Ed rules where released? That was really changing stuff. If you only just was like the Hive Mind and adapted instead?


Moving from 2nd edition to 3rd edition rules was completely different to going from 3rd->4th-.5th. 3rd editoin was a completely new game tbh so major changes woudl be expected although i remember an articles when the Blood Angels came out showing how a 2nd edion army could eaisly become a 3rd edition army with very few changes.



2. 'Oh no!, They can instant kill my T4 creature with a Lascannon'.
So? Isn't there any other targets they also might shoot at? It's all about target priority and believe me, there'll be plenty to choose from, and some bad ass bug will make a mess of the enemy battleline. Like always, as a Tyranid player, there will be a round or two of just taking incoming fire before the retaliation begins. Just consider what one single unmodified carnifex in a mycetic spore in the mist of the enemy lines on round two will do? Combine that with a trygon emerging? Now who even cares if the shot at your venomthrope or zoanthropes? Your enemies focus will be elsewhere...


Cannot really argue here, though the loss of EW effects the big bugs as well, that Grand Master with an s6 force weapon could be a pain. However your target prioroity does have a problem, those thropes coudl be dispatched with even before the big things arrive, problem solved. Turn one, a lascannon battery wiped out those thropes, next turn they focus on the big nids that have popped up from nowhere but have decided to stand there and not get into combat



I even found out that Pyrovores are good while making a little playtest against an oponent that also read whining threads similar to this. I used a 'counts as' just to test it and since it was overlooked, I really swamped his marines with 3 heavy flamer shots followed by a charge... I sincerely hope that you guys play against something other than marines, since 3 pyros will be devastating against orks, tau and guard... and even mess up a few eldar.


You're willing to waste 135pts for 3 heavy flamers that are slow and can be taken out with a krak missile, i think i can find mroe effectiver things in the elite option



Then I just don't understand the complaint about Shadow in the Warp. I read complaints about it being too short ranged? Now, really? My biggest fear is a Librarian, Farseer or similar coming up close with those nasty force weapons to one of your MC's.


Force weapon defense is alright since nids no longer have EW (THE best force weapon defense0 but the short range complaint is targetted towards Lash that SW power I cannot seem to remember the name of, Im sure someone could help me out here:p. Basically, it only helps against force wepaons as the vast majority of psychic powers that are used have more than a 12" range



This codex is truly about the hive fleet. It is about your ability to adapt and evolve. Lets just see how many of you that will make the next evolutionary cut... ;D

Read a bit of Darwin and I quote Natural selection will never produce in a being anything injurious to itself, for natural selection acts solely by and for the good." I see many adaptions here that are harmful to my army

EDIT: Rippers are not scoring units, read page 90 of the rule book so fwacho has just lost 2 builds

Vepr
19-01-2010, 00:08
I am trying to remain positive. I am going to give this codex a serious go because nids are my favorite army. If things are still not looking up by the time blood angels roll around I might give that army a go because I have a ton of unpainted marines waiting for paint scheme.

Vineas
19-01-2010, 00:45
I really should stay out of these Tyranid threads. Just the level of whining has me wanting to shelve 40k altogether.

Thank god I play against Orks and IG and I know 3 Pyrovores in a pod will find their way into my list. Maybe not all the time but in PS they will if I'm attacking as with 6 elites to choose from they will be the cheapest without trying to spam anything (18 Lictors would be fun in PS or 18 zoanthropes) but I'd have to severely limit myself elsewhere. With 6 elite slots to work with I think I can find room for a pyrovore brood. Apoc will see them too as we play 10k points per side so 155pts for 3 pyrovores in a pod is peanuts.

Draconian77
19-01-2010, 01:04
Biovores are much better than Pyrovores if you want an honest opinion.

Pyrovores are sort of...sub-par. ;)

Zanzibarthefirst
19-01-2010, 01:47
i still cannot find a good use for pyrovores. Yes you can pod them and get 3 h.flamer attacks but that is all you will get out of them. CC isnt up to much and acid blood helps a little bit but not much though if your fighting Orks/IG, 175 for a podding suicide flame of death isnt too bad i suppose, you can still haver some biovores if you like your vores that much.

Im quite keen on Old One Eye to be honest, at first I thought, ah he's expensive but berserk rampage is quite brutal when combined with scything talons and crushing claws, a potential 16 s10 attacks on the charge that re-rolls 1 to hit. Its a shame Living battering ram doesnt work with old one eye but you cannot have everything

Shadowfax
19-01-2010, 02:00
Everyone knew a nerf to Nidzilla list was coming but the nerf seemed a little bit too harsh IMHO

The thing is, they didn't even really nerf nidzilla, they just mixed up the specific monsters you're going to want to field.

King Kongnifex is dead.

Trigan or Mawgalon are viable builds, as is King Tervorah.

I feel like those portmanteaus earn me at least one punch in the face per.

Zanzibarthefirst
19-01-2010, 02:04
When I say Nidzilla, I mean the good old tyrant/carnifex rather than the Gonzilla list

Im surprising they didnt make the tyrannofex better since ti doesnt have a model meaning people will first have to try and convert it and then buy another one when an officla model comes out. I bet that'll be what happens when the tervigon comes out, all those who converted one will go out and buy one. They might make a fair bit of money off Doom as well

chaos0xomega
19-01-2010, 02:11
I dunno, I think the tyrannofex is a pretty good choice. It's best suited for up-front shooting, but if you give it the capsule cannon or whatever the hell is called (Im too used to the translation, sue me), you can open up tanks at range, at least a little bit more reliably than zoanthropes.

AlmightyNocturnus
19-01-2010, 02:12
Since there has been such a push to scratch build the new big Tyranid critters, I feel like GW isn`t going to make/realease any kits for them in the forseeable future. The Tervigon is so good that every Tyranid player will convert their old shooty fexes (and newer players will conver Canris right out of the box) right away, so by the time GW releases one, nobody will need one (no one will buy one). I wonder if the real big things like the Tervigon, Harpy, and Tyrannofex might be Forgeworld releases instead. The Doom might be hard to do since it`s a unique character (hence, people will only ever buy zero or one of them). Now I`m considering how to convert a Tyrannofex. What are people using for that giant gun that comes out of its mouth? I`m sure as hell not going to cut up a Heirodule just to geth that bio-cannon.

Almighty Nocturnus

Shadowfax
19-01-2010, 02:19
I(Im too used to the translation, sue me),
Haha.

Capsule Cannon is actually way cooler sounding than Rupture Cannon. In fact, I was disappointed with a lot of the English names, and the level of writing in the fluff sections at large. Most of it sounds like it was written by overzealous 14 year old fanficcers.

"Shreddershard" beetles? Are you f---ing kidding me? Might be even worse than "Venomthrope".

Zanzibarthefirst
19-01-2010, 02:22
I dunno, I think the tyrannofex is a pretty good choice. It's best suited for up-front shooting, but if you give it the capsule cannon or whatever the hell is called (Im too used to the translation, sue me), you can open up tanks at range, at least a little bit more reliably than zoanthropes.

I still mantain that zoanthropes are a better option than the tyrannofex. A suicide pod allows it to get into better positions and shot rear armour etc... The ap1 also means it can deal with things like broadsides easier. Up front shooting is alright, im not too keen on the fleshborer hive. it'll miss half then 5 or 6 will hit and if your against MEQs then you'll kill 2 or 3. It seems that Cruddace thought that since IG have a 20shot weapon then nids shoudl have one but as per the whole codex, everything taken fromt he IG codex isnt so good in translation

Kheotour
19-01-2010, 02:56
In the new codex are lurking units allowed to claim or contest objectives? The codex does not state one way or the other. I played a game tonight and that came up. If lurking units can contest objectives the Tyranids won the game.. if lurking units cannot contest objects it would be a tie.

Shadowfax
19-01-2010, 02:59
In the new codex are lurking units allowed to claim or contest objectives? The codex does not state one way or the other. I played a game tonight and that came up. If lurking units can contest objectives the Tyranids won the game.. if lurking units cannot contest objects it would be a tie.
If there's nothing saying they can't contest/score, they do.

Zanzibarthefirst
19-01-2010, 03:02
Theres no reason why they wouldn't cliam objectives. Instinctive behaviour on a whole seems a lot better so kill the synapse creatures first isnt always going to amke life so much easier

chaos0xomega
19-01-2010, 03:04
Oh, no doubt podathropes are better at popping tanks, but it's always good to have backup, and if there are multiple big scary tank threats coming at you, a squad of zoanthropes can only handle one per turn.

Vepr
19-01-2010, 03:27
I still mantain that zoanthropes are a better option than the tyrannofex. A suicide pod allows it to get into better positions and shot rear armour etc... The ap1 also means it can deal with things like broadsides easier. Up front shooting is alright, im not too keen on the fleshborer hive. it'll miss half then 5 or 6 will hit and if your against MEQs then you'll kill 2 or 3. It seems that Cruddace thought that since IG have a 20shot weapon then nids shoudl have one but as per the whole codex, everything taken fromt he IG codex isnt so good in translation


Xeno-Guard 2.0... Hmmm that will be to obvious I must add something not like guard... Drop Pods!!! :shifty: :p

Geep
19-01-2010, 07:53
i still cannot find a good use for pyrovores.
Although I think they're overpriced and not the best, they still have a flamer template (which can cover a lot of orks/ guard) and denies their armour and cover saves. Good cover saves are all too common on the board I usually play on. I'll be trying them at some point due to this.
Biovores are excellent now, but they can't completely solve the issue of my cover-loving IG opponent.

Rift
19-01-2010, 09:11
been running warriors with bone swords and toxin sacs, and they work great, a little pricy but really awesome in Hth.

Rift
19-01-2010, 09:17
Can someone clear up Acid Blood for me??

I’ve just got my hands on the new Nid Dex and there are some cool options. But I’m not too sure about the application of the Acid Blood Bio morph.
It says the following...

“For every unsaved wound a model with acid blood suffers in close combat, the enemy unit that struck the blow must pass an Initiative test or suffer a wound. No armour saves or cover saves may be taken against these wounds and casualties count towards combat resolution. ...”

Ok, now, let’s say your model(with acid blood) gets attacked by a unit of 10 models and they end up wounding you once. Will the enemy unit make 1 Initiative test or will the unit make an initiative test per model in the unit, ten tests in this case?

Also, will it be distributed like shooting or would you have to take a test on an individual model and if failed then that model gets wounded?

Cheers for the help.

Vineas
19-01-2010, 09:45
It sounds like you would take just one test chosen on any model you want like through normal wound allocation.

Biggest debate is on whether or not if a model has 3 wounds and you inflict 9 unsaved wounds would you take 9 tests or 3? I say 9 as it doesn't say "wounds inflicted OVER the actual amount are discarded". I mean, if you keep hacking at someone even immediately after death their blood is spraying and flying everywhere. Watch any slasher movie to see what happens when someone is stabbed 2 dozen times. Normally the 1st one is fatal but when you stab someone 24 times (or 9 times) blood will be everywhere, not just on the murder weapon. If it's acidic it's still going to burn just as much whether it's sprayed under pressure or just flying around randomly.

Rift
19-01-2010, 10:00
Not so sure,

The fluff says spray of acid ichor. (Yes yes, fluff doesn’t matter, but still curious)

And it doesn’t say if your model takes an unsaved wound from a model that model takes an initiative test, but refers to the unit taking an initiative test, with implies all the models in the unit.

Once again, I don’t know, but am just stating the counter arguments.

Geep
19-01-2010, 10:35
I'd say it's a single Initiative test based on the unit's average Initiative, and if failed one model takes the wound, allocated as a normal shooting attack.
If the wound is done by an independent character attached to a squad, that independent character is still a seperate unit and should take the test/ wound (I think that's how it works?).

crashbang
19-01-2010, 14:08
i like the idea of dropping pyrovores in the middle of an opposition army with the mawlock and other things and sowing carnage. plus, depending on how you make your mythetic spore, it could be such an annoying unit - blocking line of sight, slowing combat unit's down...love it.

after uni, i might with a twist of my arm sell off some of my old nids and rebuild. maybe i can have some conversion fun :D but is it just me or are the MC's monstrously expensive in this edition? the hive tyrant can cost hundreds of points and it isnt that good...or have i missed something.

i probably wont take old one eye anyway. a very vulnerable unit for 280 points

Bassline
19-01-2010, 14:34
I still mantain that zoanthropes are a better option than the tyrannofex. A suicide pod allows it to get into better positions and shot rear armour etc... The ap1 also means it can deal with things like broadsides easier. Up front shooting is alright, im not too keen on the fleshborer hive. it'll miss half then 5 or 6 will hit and if your against MEQs then you'll kill 2 or 3. It seems that Cruddace thought that since IG have a 20shot weapon then nids shoudl have one but as per the whole codex, everything taken fromt he IG codex isnt so good in translation

Lance weapons... plus S10 = all ways glancing on a 2+ min so you can shoot a lemun russ from infront of it if u so wished. Only real advantage would be being hine it so it turns to face you then hive guard shoot its back side up

Grax
19-01-2010, 16:49
The zoanthropes are AMAZINGLY powerful. The warp blast is officially the strongest gun in all of 40k, at least against vehicles. I've done the math, and according to my calculations, a unit of 3 zoanthropes firing warp blast is about 10-15% more effective than 3 meltas fired within half range with BS4 (that's including the zoanthrope's chance of failing their psychic test).

If that isn't incredible enough for you, keep in mind that warp blast has a range of 18in, whereas meltas have to be within 6in to get the full effect. They're really amazing. I don't play Tyranids, but if I did, I'd use 3-6 zoanthropes in every list.

Vepr
19-01-2010, 16:56
The zoanthropes are AMAZINGLY powerful. The warp blast is officially the strongest gun in all of 40k, at least against vehicles. I've done the math, and according to my calculations, a unit of 3 zoanthropes firing warp blast is about 10-15% more effective than 3 meltas fired within half range with BS4 (that's including the zoanthrope's chance of failing their psychic test).

If that isn't incredible enough for you, keep in mind that warp blast has a range of 18in, whereas meltas have to be within 6in to get the full effect. They're really amazing. I don't play Tyranids, but if I did, I'd use 3-6 zoanthropes in every list.

Yeah I think at least 3 zoans in a drop pod are going to be a part of a lot of lists. Hard not to like them for their attacks and synapse.

Egaeus
19-01-2010, 18:45
The zoanthropes are AMAZINGLY powerful. The warp blast is officially the strongest gun in all of 40k, at least against vehicles. I've done the math, and according to my calculations, a unit of 3 zoanthropes firing warp blast is about 10-15% more effective than 3 meltas fired within half range with BS4 (that's including the zoanthrope's chance of failing their psychic test).

If that isn't incredible enough for you, keep in mind that warp blast has a range of 18in, whereas meltas have to be within 6in to get the full effect. They're really amazing. I don't play Tyranids, but if I did, I'd use 3-6 zoanthropes in every list.

I'd be interested in seeing your math since mine says slightly differently...Against AV14 the Zoanthrope is about 10% better. Against AV13 they're equal. Against AV 12 the Melta is actually better and against AV 10-11 the Zoanthrope wins out again, but only by a very small margin. And this isn't taking into account the fact that the Zoantrhope does have a slighly smaller chance to hit assuming the Psychic test is part of the to-hit process.

You also have to remember that because the 'Nid army is designed as a specialist army they don't have a huge amount of choice for tankbusting, compared to armies that can take meltas and can often drop a meltagun (or multiples) into every squad/slot, sometimes even getting multiple options per Troop slot. Not to mention the potential for Lascannons, Meltabombs and/or Power Fists. Also to point out that other armies get transports that make their units a bit faster. So a unit in a Transport is reliably faster than a footslogging unit.

Don't get me wrong, Zoanthropes are amazing...but it seems as much to me that they actually do really well in the role they were designed to do...if you assume that role is popping heavy armour.

Souleater
19-01-2010, 19:45
Yeah, they are much better at their role than certain other Nid units...yes Pyrovore...I'm looking at you...

Rick Blaine
19-01-2010, 19:47
The zoanthropes are AMAZINGLY powerful. The warp blast is officially the strongest gun in all of 40k, at least against vehicles. I've done the math, and according to my calculations, a unit of 3 zoanthropes firing warp blast is about 10-15% more effective than 3 meltas fired within half range with BS4 (that's including the zoanthrope's chance of failing their psychic test)

Enemy Librarians and Farseers won't negate ~50% of my Meltagun shots ;)

Grax
19-01-2010, 19:55
Sigh...that's what I get for posting before I get my caffeine for the morning.

Yes, you're correct Egaeus. I forgot that my math was based on shooting armor 14. Warp blast is 10% more effective against armor 14. Against the lower armor values, melta catches up, but the fact that's it's on par with meltas (and in some cases better) from 18in away is amazing. It's essentially a short ranged railgun that's also a lance, and the unit does a hell of a lot more for you than a broadside does for Tau.

Zanzibarthefirst
20-01-2010, 02:02
Lance weapons... plus S10 = all ways glancing on a 2+ min so you can shoot a lemun russ from infront of it if u so wished. Only real advantage would be being hine it so it turns to face you then hive guard shoot its back side up

Im aware that you'll always glance on a 2+ against av12 but my point was podding in behind it so you are penetrating it on a 2+. Also being behind the tank line could work to divide the line. Imagine this, zoanthropes pod 18" away from the tank line, they pop a tank and now the opponent has to double back on itself in order to dela with the zoanthropes that are ripping apart the tanks. Divide and conquer. Zoanthropes will attract more than enough firepower to kill them simply because of the threat they possess. Im still thinking of letting mine pop out of a subterranean tunnel on turn 3 or 4 assuming my trygon turns up. With a hive commanding tyrant and maybe a lictor its quite easy to dictate when your reserves come in. However, the flaw in my plan would be that the zoanthropes may have already turned up before the trygon pops up and infatry are allowed to pop out its tunnels since you cannot hold models in reserve to utilise the tunnel but rather any unit that jsut so happens to arrive at that given turn can use a tunnel if they'd like. Another poorly written game mechanic tbh. Since any army that relies on outflanking etc... will have at least +1 to their reserve rolls, there will not be anything left in reserve by turn 3.

cc pyrovores. Yes I am now convinced they have their uses, 3 heavy flamers can come in useful. However, givne the price of the models and the availability of better options it is unlikely that I'll ever take 1 nevermind 3

The thing I miss is the genetic map showing hwo different creatures were related to each other. Any new codex seems to follow the same pattern x wins massive victory, x wins another and heres a time line of x. I want to see more diagrams etc... though the maps for hive fleet behemoth and leviathan are good. I want to see more of that.

I would have liked to see paint schemes for some of the other hive fleets that got expanded coverage. Variants of the main three are jnice but I'd like to see somethign else every now than. The odd one or two models is nice but I'd like to see an army of purple and yellow nids or somethign like that. the same apint schemes as before suggest little work has been done and old models ahve been dusted off for some photos.

genestealer_baldric
20-01-2010, 08:27
i played my 1st proper game with the new nids last night well i got my ass handed to me but that was against the beardest player i know with his tourni army

but its not all doom and gloom, zonthropes are amazing, also strangley so are biovores.

i like the deathleaper/shadow in the warp combo especially when you lower the oponets physker ld to 7

also deathleaper/mawlock combo is also very evil

overall i must admit they are not as bad as they look on paper, but they have changed so many rules i kept getting them confused for the older ones.

its still going to take some getting used to.

TheShadowCow
20-01-2010, 10:51
overall i must admit they are not as bad as they look on paper, but they have changed so many rules i kept getting them confused for the older ones.

its still going to take some getting used to.

Next, try a couple of Heavy Venom Cannons - you'll be cheerfully surprised :)

azimaith
20-01-2010, 11:06
also deathleaper/mawlock combo is also very evil

its still going to take some getting used to.
What is this deathleaper mawloc combo.

genestealer_baldric
20-01-2010, 11:10
where the death leaper is model deepstriking within 6" dont roll for scatter like a chaos icon, and a deathleaper can appear anywhere it wants as long as its 1" from an enamy model

so place next to big bad evil unit, up pops tygon and mawlock with boom marker, then deathleaper disapears then next turn the mawlock goes back down and tyrgon then hits whats left

azimaith
20-01-2010, 11:24
where the death leaper is model deepstriking within 6" dont roll for scatter like a chaos icon, and a deathleaper can appear anywhere it wants as long as its 1" from an enamy model

so place next to big bad evil unit, up pops tygon and mawlock with boom marker, then deathleaper disapears then next turn the mawlock goes back down and tyrgon then hits whats left

I asked because I expected you to say this.
Thats not how it works.
Lictors and death leaper only prevent scatter (and add+1 to reserves rolls) if they are on the table at the start of the turn thus you can't place a lictor or deathleaper then deep strike next to them to get the bonus from the homer. You have to place the lictor or death leaper, wait a full turn, then next turn you can deep strike next to him to get the benefit.

Furthermore lictors and deathleaper are deployed in reserves thus you have to roll to actually get him on the table then wait a turn, then deep strike next to him.

Bassline
20-01-2010, 11:29
I asked because I expected you to say this.
Thats not how it works.
Lictors and death leaper only prevent scatter (and add+1 to reserves rolls) if they are on the table at the start of the turn thus you can't place a lictor or deathleaper then deep strike next to them to get the bonus from the homer. You have to place the lictor or death leaper, wait a full turn, then next turn you can deep strike next to him to get the benefit.

Furthermore lictors and deathleaper are deployed in reserves thus you have to roll to actually get him on the table then wait a turn, then deep strike next to him.


Turn 1 Mawloc is on the table, turn 2 lictor appears and mawloc digs underground. Turn 3 Mawlocs appears with out scattering and then lictor disappears. Turn 4 Lictor appears and mawloc disappears, turn 5 mawloc appars

erm should of said deathleaper not lictor. But it does make mawloc 100% Acc, also if you had 3 mawlocs that would do alot of damagae :) plus most the models be getting there points back as they can not all ways be shot but they will keep doing damage

Jaxell
20-01-2010, 11:32
...and then lictor disappears...

...In a hail of fire.

Keep in mind it's still unsure whether the Mawloc can intentionally be placed on enemy models. Currently, rules seem to point to: no.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 11:34
Turn 1 Mawloc is on the table, turn 2 lictor appears and mawloc digs underground. Turn 3 Mawlocs appears with out scattering and then lictor disappears. Turn 4 Lictor appears and mawloc disappears, turn 5 mawloc appars

erm should of said deathleaper not lictor. But it does make mawloc 100% Acc, also if you had 3 mawlocs that would do alot of damagae :) plus most the models be getting there points back as they can not all ways be shot but they will keep doing damage
Getting two direct hits with the mawloc 50% of the time with a mawloc is not what I'd consider fantastic. If the lictor isn't there on turn 2 its only one hit. I can buy other stuff for a mawloc and a lictor that will do more than one s6 AP2 template much less attempting to get three mawlocs to not fit into squads.

Bassline
20-01-2010, 11:40
Yes thats true but its also something that oppents can not really deal with you put something on the board that stays there all game they can move in on it, with deathleaper / mawloc you can be from 1 side to another in a turn or 2. Also its good when made up of 2 mawlocs and 1 death leaper.

Deathleaper appears and shoots a transport it has a good chance of shaking it so cant move. Then next turn a mawloc comes in S6 V AV 10 can blow it up next mawloc comes in all the troops now out the transport and S6 AP2 on a squad of marines will cause alot of deathhs.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 11:51
Yes thats true but its also something that oppents can not really deal with

Last I heard deathleaper had wounds and a 5+ armor save and a save of 3+ typically in cover. I don't find that hard to remove.



you put something on the board that stays there all game they can move in on it, with deathleaper / mawloc you can be from 1 side to another in a turn or 2. Also its good when made up of 2 mawlocs and 1 death leaper.
That's why I have guns.



Deathleaper appears and shoots a transport it has a good chance of shaking it so cant move.

Shaken transports can move, on a glance of 5+ you can stun it and then it cant move unless its got extra armor which is basically universal on transports.



Then next turn a mawloc comes in S6 V AV 10 can blow it up next mawloc comes in all the troops now out the transport and S6 AP2 on a squad of marines will cause alot of deathhs.
S6 vs av10 is a 5+ to penetrate then a 5+ to wreck. That's not good odds especially when that same transport could just unload on the turn death leaper enters and gun him down/drive away.

Rick Blaine
20-01-2010, 12:37
Turn 1 Mawloc is on the table, turn 2 lictor appears and mawloc digs underground. Turn 3 Mawlocs appears with out scattering and then lictor disappears. Turn 4 Lictor appears and mawloc disappears, turn 5 mawloc appars

erm should of said deathleaper not lictor. But it does make mawloc 100% Acc, also if you had 3 mawlocs that would do alot of damagae :) plus most the models be getting there points back as they can not all ways be shot but they will keep doing damage

While this sounds fun, you're essentially paying 300 pts for two S6 Ap2 blasts.

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 13:49
The Deathleaper/Mawloc (but 3 of them seems like overkill to me and far to many points) combo is something I wish to try out myself, it may be 300 points, but it's a S6 AP2 large blast that never scatters making it very deadly and possibly devastating. Tank formations would also need to beware seeing how they're hit on rear armour. Back this up with Zoans, maybe a Doom and Biovores and you have a nice aray or blast weapons to pummel the enemy with.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 13:53
While this sounds fun, you're essentially paying 300 pts for two S6 Ap2 blasts.

I suppose it could be worse, you could be paying 170 points for edit one 12" S7 AP2 small blasts.

Anyhow more than one mawloc deepstriking with the deathleaper seems like a waste, how many units do you expect to find within 6".
I don't want my mawlocs deployment to be determined by my opponents deployment over my needs.

genestealer_baldric
20-01-2010, 14:00
I suppose it could be worse, you could be paying 170 points for two 12" S7 AP2 small blasts.

care to eliborate?

azimaith
20-01-2010, 14:10
Bioplasma, it should be one S7 AP2.

genestealer_baldric
20-01-2010, 14:18
ah right i forgot abbout that

Megad00mer
20-01-2010, 14:45
Isn’t it 180pts? Bio-Plasma is a 20pt upgrade. Surprise, surprise. Another overcosted option on the Carnifex.

I was a huge defender of this book, but unfortunately the more I read it, the less I can defend certain things in it. Overall, yes it’s a decent codex and the Nids will still be a competitive army, but so many options and units just flat out don’t work or make little to no sense that I can't help but feel like no one bothered to even proof read this book, let alone properly playtest it.

It’s obvious to me now that Cruddace never played, nor really cared about Tyranids.The simple fact that the Carnifex, probably the most beloved and iconic Tyranid unit, has been relegated to obscurity proves this to me.

I’m a die hard Tyranid player. I’ll continue to play the army and find ways to do well with it. It’s just after all the other fantastic 5th edition codexes, I was really, really excited for “my army” to finally get the same treatment. We didn’t. It’s a big disappointment.

Guess Tyranids had to be finished up quick so that GW could lavish the proper attention on yet another Space Marine army…

Vepr
20-01-2010, 14:52
Isnít it 180pts? Bio-Plasma is a 20pt upgrade. Surprise, surprise. Another overcosted option on the Carnifex.

I was a huge defender of this book, but unfortunately the more I read it, the less I can defend certain things in it. Overall, yes itís a decent codex and the Nids will still be a competitive army, but so many options and units just flat out donít work or make little to no sense that I can't help but feel like no one bothered to even proof read this book, let alone properly playtest it.

Itís obvious to me now that Cruddace never played, nor really cared about Tyranids.The simple fact that the Carnifex, probably the most beloved and iconic Tyranid unit, has been relegated to obscurity proves this to me.

Iím a die hard Tyranid player. Iíll continue to play the army and find ways to do well with it. Itís just after all the other fantastic 5th edition codexes, I was really, really excited for ďmy armyĒ to finally get the same treatment. We didnít. Itís a big disappointment.

Guess Tyranids had to be finished up quick so that GW could lavish the proper attention on yet another Space Marine armyÖ

That is probably my biggest disappointment as nids are also my favorite. It is rather obvious they did not put much thought or care into this dex and we are likely stuck with it for a long time.

Zanzibarthefirst
20-01-2010, 14:54
The Mawloc doesnt is probably the second or third most effective heavy support option but that doesnt say mcuh for the rest of the HS. The whole 'can you deep strike on someoneshead with a Mawloc' question will determine how useful it is. Logic would say it can. Here is somethign I'd like all to consider. The rules state you cannot deep strike within an inch of an enemy unit. Thats fine and whether the Terror from the Deep overrule that is irrelevant at this point. Anyhow, unit coherency is 2" so it is possibly to mark the pointthat is exactly an inch away from any model.. At this point int he game the Mawloc hasnt actually arrived so you 'Place the large blast template directly above the spot the Mawloc is emerging from..and the replace the large blast template with the Mawloc' rather than 'Place the large blast template directly above the spot the Mawloc is ermging from..and replace the large blast template with the Mawloc.' I'll be honest, it sounds a load of nonsense and to be fair I'd be inclined to agree but its possible that this could work. It occurs to me that the rulebook that you place the model down then scatter but the Terror of the Deep seems to omply different. Nonetheless, this is simply another example of what can be considerred a rather poorly written codex

Bolter Bait
20-01-2010, 15:04
Isnít it 180pts? Bio-Plasma is a 20pt upgrade. Surprise, surprise. Another overcosted option on the Carnifex.
I was sad to discover that bioplasma wasn't already included in the Carnifex's exorbitant cost. I was under the assumption that all Carnifexes were going to be Screamer-Killers from the get-go and then we'd have to upgrade to other kinds. Having to pay for the bioplasma separately just means I'll never take it. I'd rather spend those shooting phases running towards the enemy - if it was free, at least I wouldn't consider it wasted if I only used it the turn I assaulted.