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The Custodian
13-01-2010, 20:14
Dont know if anyone else has realized this but...

The Apocalypse hierophant is insane now...


Currently the HIerophant has the following abilities from the nid dex... Regen, Toxic Miasma ( I believe, my apoc book isnt with me at the moment), Lashwhips, and warp field...

In the old book this meant that Any enemy models in base contact had -1 WS, -1 A. For defense the HIerophant had a 6+ save from warp field, 10 wounds, T 9, and regen...

NOw in the new book...

It lowers enemy attacks to I1, forces enemies in base contact to take a T test or take a wound with saves allowed. BUt this isnt the scary part. Warpfield in the new book gives a model a 3+ Invul save :eek: according to the zoanthrope entry...

Delicious no?

kane40k
13-01-2010, 20:18
oh man! that hurts Big time! 3+ inv save? :( sad sad new year!

IJW
13-01-2010, 20:23
As previously discussed in the rules forum thread on Tyranid Apoc datasheets, you're best off either using the previous codex rules or re-writing the Hierophant to either take into account the new rules (and a massive points hike) or to integrate the old versions.

Don't forget, this is the kind of thing that you will need to discuss with the GM/opponents...

Nezalhualixtlan
13-01-2010, 20:29
GW has also stated they are going to be releasing new Apocalypse data sheets for the Tyranids soon with the new Codex, they may be already in the process of rebalancing the Hierophants massive upgrade to abilities in the newest Codex.

Mannimarco
13-01-2010, 20:30
ah our old friend the hierophant......you thought he was scary last time well check him out now

seriously I sent zaryknel and scabbiethrax after him and the barely made it out alive, ang'rath had to help

thats right folks the bio titan held its own against the big 3, now its even scarier, good thing it costs so many points and is a nightmare to put together so it puts off all but the most dedicated nid players

The Custodian
13-01-2010, 20:32
GW has also stated they are going to be releasing new Apocalypse data sheets for the Tyranids soon with the new Codex, they may be already in the process of rebalancing the Hierophants massive upgrade to abilities in the newest Codex.



Thing is these will probably only cover new unit formations... I doubt they would update the older ones...

hendybadger
13-01-2010, 20:51
Is it only the Hierophant that has gained from the updated rules?
Even if it is, this once nasty CC beast is now an immensely evil CC beast!

The Custodian
13-01-2010, 21:00
I believe the malanthrope may also be affected, and you can take him in normal games

Zanzibarthefirst
13-01-2010, 21:03
I do hope that FW are quick off the mark and update their tyrnaid creatures although i fear they may get struck by the mysterious printing error

hendybadger
13-01-2010, 21:06
Is the Malanthrope effected in a good or bad way? I dont have my Apoc books handy today and cant remember what each creature has

cuda1179
13-01-2010, 21:09
Actually, RAW the Hierophant does not get any invulnerable save. They are not affected by any psychic ability (friend or foe) unless it has a strength value. On the plus side, you don't have to worry about Jaws of the World Wolf.

Ozendorph
13-01-2010, 21:10
Haha, I may have to bring this up at the LA Bunker before the big "Nids vs. Everyone" event at the end of the month.

WH40KAj
13-01-2010, 21:11
Is the Malanthrope effected in a good or bad way? I dont have my Apoc books handy today and cant remember what each creature has

It has a 3+ inv and is an mc with fleet. Tendrils mean nothing these days but it's the cheapest TMC left now.. cheaper than a fex and more attacks that cause ID.

Mannimarco
13-01-2010, 21:15
cuda males a good point there about the issue of gargantuan creatures and psyker powers

meanmachine
13-01-2010, 21:21
a hierophant used to be able to get up to 9 wounds back a turn thanks to regen

i believe now it can only get 1 max per turn

so it got stronger in some ways and weaker in others

The Custodian
13-01-2010, 21:30
Actually, RAW the Hierophant does not get any invulnerable save. They are not affected by any psychic ability (friend or foe) unless it has a strength value. On the plus side, you don't have to worry about Jaws of the World Wolf.



Not exactly, warp field now isn't a psychic power, it's like a storm shield and just buffs the unit...

hendybadger
13-01-2010, 21:38
Regen isnt any different is it?
But that 3++ save is amazing!

LonelyPath
13-01-2010, 23:14
With Regen you can get alot more than 1 wound back each turn. Depends on how many 6s you roll ;0

Vaktathi
13-01-2010, 23:18
Given how undercosted it already was, you may want to voluntarily increase it's cost if you are going to play it with a 2+/3++ that wasn't intended when the designers wrote its rules. At it's current points cost, it's already not going to have an issue wrecking 3 baneblades that total cost more than it does and taking comparatively little damage in return, giving it a 3+ invul save is really overkill if you want anyone to actually play you again.

hendybadger
13-01-2010, 23:23
But after all the complaining about the codex the Tyranid Apoc players are now over the moon! Let us have our fun! And just add something to your force to kill it.

Vaktathi
13-01-2010, 23:37
But after all the complaining about the codex the Tyranid Apoc players are now over the moon! Let us have our fun! Playing against something packing 16 S10 shots that you can't kill tends to not be fun for the other side. I understand the problems with the Tyranid codex, I really do see why many players aren't entirely happy with it and I understand that, but Biotitans aren't a part of that problem or the solution.


And just add something to your force to kill it.I'll just add those 10 vendetta's I have laying around. Giving it that 3+ invul for no increase in cost is fairly silly if you want a somewhat balanced game (and yes, even in Apoc, this matters, nobody enjoys getting stomped even in such events) and it isn't exactly going to be easy for someone to just bring more stuff (especially if you're supposed to be playing roughly equal points here) to try and kill it.

Latro_
13-01-2010, 23:56
WHAT!? that big bloody thing got better! lol

That thing was the main reason I lost a bit of interest in big stuff in apoc and therefore playing apoc. I know its a fun narrative version of the rules and you can do what you like but apoc games where i am would generally be pickup and play with lots of folks so sticking to the book would come in to play.

That thing was silly good enough as it was. heh i'll stick to me 1500pt games.

Nezalhualixtlan
14-01-2010, 00:00
cuda males a good point there about the issue of gargantuan creatures and psyker powers

The Unit description for the Hierophant states:
"PSYCHIC POWERS: The Hierophant is a psyker and has the Warp Field power."

There would be absolutely no point in adding that to the unit entry if they didn't intend for it to benefit from the passive armor save ability, which used to be 2+/6+*, and will now be 3+*. I'd say the unit specific rules override the general Gargantuan creature prohibition on being affected by psychic powers.

GirathonB
14-01-2010, 01:59
In my initial games with it under the rules changes, I will be valuing this thing at 2000 points. Even one such as myself would feel guilty runing this thing at the old point cost.

Mannimarco
14-01-2010, 02:01
thats a significant price hike but yeah its more realistic

mchmr6677
14-01-2010, 02:12
I'll just add those 10 vendetta's I have laying around. Giving it that 3+ invul for no increase in cost is fairly silly if you want a somewhat balanced game (and yes, even in Apoc, this matters, nobody enjoys getting stomped even in such events) and it isn't exactly going to be easy for someone to just bring more stuff (especially if you're supposed to be playing roughly equal points here) to try and kill it.

The ten vendettas are equal points. Sounds fair.

ooglatjama
14-01-2010, 04:18
I remember one apoc game a DE crucible of malediction killed a heirophant...

GirathonB
14-01-2010, 04:27
I remember one apoc game a DE crucible of malediction killed a heirophant...

That would at most do d3 wounds to if, if I remember what that does correctly.

CushionRide
14-01-2010, 05:33
bahh i dont care about that thing (mind you i play tyranids) ive seen people shoot it do death, (+3 invul) that may be a bit problamatic. where was that caladius assasin? lol

Angelwing
14-01-2010, 05:36
Oh dear. You would of course refer to the 4th ed codex for any heirophant rules that mention the tyranid codex. I can see how anyone new to the hobby would be confused, but would any veteran gamer stoop so low as to get his / her grasping claws on better abilities they haven't paid the points for? The heirophant as written is very good and a bargain. Don't leave bitter tastes in your opponents mouths by trying to claim free upgrades you are not entitled to.

zeep
14-01-2010, 06:01
Oh dear. You would of course refer to the 4th ed codex for any heirophant rules that mention the tyranid codex. I can see how anyone new to the hobby would be confused, but would any veteran gamer stoop so low as to get his / her grasping claws on better abilities they haven't paid the points for? The heirophant as written is very good and a bargain. Don't leave bitter tastes in your opponents mouths by trying to claim free upgrades you are not entitled to.

Because no space wolf player did this last codex when the new marine codex came out...:rolleyes: :shifty:

Angelwing
14-01-2010, 06:08
Because no space wolf player did this last codex when the new marine codex came out...:rolleyes: :shifty:

Indeed, indeed.

Vaktathi
14-01-2010, 08:17
The ten vendettas are equal points. Sounds fair.

Sure, but I'm much less likely to have 10 vendetta's lying around, especially built and painted, and costs about 4x as much in $$$ terms.

You could take 1500pts of BB's (3) and slog it against a single Heirophant, even without the 3++, that costs 250pts less, and they'd likely lose in all honesty pretty badly.

doomspittle
14-01-2010, 09:01
UM , i think its a fair trade considering the amount of damage D weapons will now do to our armies. At least tanks survive 50% of the time . bye bye tyrant and broods of fexs

genestealer_baldric
14-01-2010, 09:03
Dont know if anyone else has realized this but...

The Apocalypse hierophant is insane now...


Currently the HIerophant has the following abilities from the nid dex... Regen, Toxic Miasma ( I believe, my apoc book isnt with me at the moment), Lashwhips, and warp field...

In the old book this meant that Any enemy models in base contact had -1 WS, -1 A. For defense the HIerophant had a 6+ save from warp field, 10 wounds, T 9, and regen...

NOw in the new book...

It lowers enemy attacks to I1, forces enemies in base contact to take a T test or take a wound with saves allowed. BUt this isnt the scary part. Warpfield in the new book gives a model a 3+ Invul save :eek: according to the zoanthrope entry...

Delicious no?

your my new best freind iam playing a game with mine next week and i can promise i wouldnt of twigged the changes, iam a happy gamer now.

Badger[Fr]
14-01-2010, 09:06
The Unit description for the Hierophant states:
"PSYCHIC POWERS: The Hierophant is a psyker and has the Warp Field power."
Wait a minute. There is no such thing as a "Warp Field" psychic power in the new Tyranid Codex. Zoanthropes do have a 3++ save, but their "Warp Field" is a special rule, not a psychic power. By RAW, the Hierophant doesn't even have an Invulnerable save at all!

Memnos
14-01-2010, 10:06
This being Apocalypse, I'm fairly certain there are lots of things that can deal with it.

How many points is it? How much of my Eversor Temple army list, with nothing but hordes of Eversor Assassins showing up, could I dedicate to just fighting it?(I call it my, 'HOLY CRAP, those Titans are dead' list. 22 18 inch charging, Melta-bomb wielding, wounds-anything-on-4+ crazy dudes with invulnerable saves? Yes, please.)

genestealer_baldric
14-01-2010, 10:35
just above 1249 and just below 1251 pts

Mannimarco
14-01-2010, 11:28
subtle lol

so we've established this thing will be freaking brutal on the table (updated rules making it A LOT more powerful) so what does everybody plan on doing if they encounter one of them (apart from panic and cry)

in apocalypse games I pretty much always take the plaguewind asset (play pure nurgle combined daemons and marines) assuming I can use the plaguewind on a nice big juicy unit of gaunts I should be able to fill the tally in one turn (epidemius hiding at the opposite end of the board) then just send in scabbiethrax who will wound him on a 2+ with no armour saves

genestealer_baldric
14-01-2010, 11:45
and what if i.. i mean someone with one takes the flank march asset ;)

Badger[Fr]
14-01-2010, 11:47
How do I deal with it? I tell my opponent to re-read the Hierophant's rules carefully. Either we play by RAI and the Hierophant gets a 6++ save, or instead use RAW and the Hierophant gets no Invulnerable save at all, as fortunately, this shameless attempt to abuse an unintended side effect of a new Codex is actually groundless.

Mannimarco
14-01-2010, 11:48
then god help us.......god help us all but no worries, for somthing that large to successfully outflank an enemy army would take some kind of Tactical Genius (tyranid Creeeeed!)

genestealer_baldric
14-01-2010, 11:59
i can see it now in the next tyranid codex a Creed tyrant lol

only if we get a Nog tyrant guard would make it complete

kaimarion
14-01-2010, 12:15
then god help us.......god help us all but no worries, for somthing that large to successfully outflank an enemy army would take some kind of Tactical Genius (tyranid Creeeeed!)

If someone tries to get a 3++ for that just tell them no, us daemon players have the great advantage of setting up last so you have the other player by the balls if they want to try that dirty trick :p.

Broken Loose
14-01-2010, 14:00
This is exactly what the Space Wolves did for a year prior to their codex coming out with their 5 point storm shields that referred to Codex: Space Marines for description of their effects. Boo hoo.

Bassline
14-01-2010, 14:14
Thorw away old dex = answered solved :)

oCoYoRoAoKo
14-01-2010, 14:47
When a new book is realeased the old rules are not supposed to be used. If a rule refers to codex tyranids/or marines in the case of space wolves then you have to refer to the most up to date book. Besides. How many people actually own a hierophant and regularly plays games large enough to feild it?

In games of those sizes, you are meant to have either enough other stuff of your own to down it or other titans/superheavies.

Cy.

genestealer_baldric
14-01-2010, 15:13
i have 1 and ive only used it once so far :(

Revelations
14-01-2010, 16:35
I'm also interested in running the Eye of the Hive now. A very nice buff to the Nid army; just got to watch out for those pesky D Weapons. ;)

MegaPope
17-01-2010, 20:56
Please do not play this thing with a 3++ if you want to retain your gaming friends. I played against one today running with a 5++. Even then they're virtually unkillable. T9, 2+ save shrugs off almost everything. Strength D doesn't help, since thanks to sloppily worded rules, there are ample grounds to say that such weaponry only causes 1 wound per hit. And it can regenerate. Plus, it's speed and damage output are such that it can pretty much roll up an entire army on its own.

Other than a concerted Vortex barrage there's no feasible way to bring it down in a practical length of time without focussing almost everything at your disposal on it. It reminds me of the Ork Space Hulk in BFG - you simply can't devote enough resources to both it and its attendent battleforce at the same time.

Mr_Rose
17-01-2010, 21:33
This is exactly what the Space Wolves did for a year prior to their codex coming out with their 5 point storm shields that referred to Codex: Space Marines for description of their effects. Boo hoo.
Which is exactly what the FAQ said to do. You want to accuse people of cheese? Fine; but when it's done under direct instructions from the mother-ship, the blame does not lie with the players.

O&G'sRule
17-01-2010, 22:18
Play it with the new rules or not its still ridiculously hard, to be honest a 3+ invulnerable save won't make much difference to my experience of using one. Most I've ever lost is 4 wounds. Once took out a reaver, warhound, 2 baneblades a shadowsword and the baneblade varient with plasma cannon (whatever its called) whilst only losing 1 wound by the end of turn 6. The real problem it its rules mixed with the gargantuan creature rules mixed with line of sight blocking strategems. The fact it makes its opponents I1 is more of a concern as you can now stomp on huge numbers of troops without them hitting it first (if they can wound a T9 creature). I usually find the 16 S10 shots a turn will kill just about 2 baneblades a turn, or very least kill one cripple the other. for 1250 points there really is nothing even close imo

O&G'sRule
17-01-2010, 22:22
. Strength D doesn't help, since thanks to sloppily worded rules, there are ample grounds to say that such weaponry only causes 1 wound per hit.

Its not sloppily worded, thats one of the gargantuan creature rules, even vortex missiles only do D6, to a creature with 10 wounds and regenerate, even theyre not a huge worry as on average you'll need 4 to take it out in one turn before it rips apart whatever shot at it

Max Jet
17-01-2010, 23:05
I usually find the 16 S10 shots a turn will kill just about 2 baneblades a turn, or very least kill one cripple the other. for 1250 points there really is nothing even close imo

Let's say you rather experience this two times at max and it left an intense impression on you. That is certainly not what happens on average.
0,66 glancing hits and 1,33 penetrating hits per turn per Baneblade.
With that said. Yes the Hierophant is a monster, but not as much as most of the Titans, it's just cheap to please the people willing to pay 210 pounds for a Toy.

MegaPope
18-01-2010, 10:06
Its not sloppily worded, thats one of the gargantuan creature rules, even vortex missiles only do D6, to a creature with 10 wounds and regenerate, even theyre not a huge worry as on average you'll need 4 to take it out in one turn before it rips apart whatever shot at it

Which is why I said 'concerted Vortex barrage', not 'Vortex missile'.

Your second point demonstrates neatly why GCs wth high toughness should be far, far more expensive overall. In fact, look at the new Tyranid Codex. If memory serves, I don't think there's anything in there with a Toughness of more than 6 any more - because at 7 or higher, you're making something immune to a large proportion of small arms fire as well as highly resistant to quite a few heavier weapons. Consequently it becomes too difficult to kill, and isn't at all fun to fight against.

In Epic, the Hierophant was the equivalent to a Warlord Titan. It is in its 40K guise as well. As the rules stand it should be 2000 points at minimum. People forget that, while mchanical warmachines may be hard to kill outright, you can put them out of action by disabling their weaponry pretty easily (and they have to 'stop' for a turn if you're foolhardy enough to want to repair it). Large creatures don't have this problem. Also, bear in mind that even Titans need to be diligently guarded at ground level by other units, since they're all but toast if something manages to assault them at close quarters. Again, this isn't something that large creatures have to worry about.

If Strength D weaponry actually caused D3 wounds to GCs/Eternal Warriors etc (as it always should've done IMO) then suddenly things are far more reasonable, not just for the Heirophant, but GCs as a whole.

meanmachine
18-01-2010, 10:43
Which is why I said 'concerted Vortex barrage', not 'Vortex missile'.

Your second point demonstrates neatly why GCs wth high toughness should be far, far more expensive overall. In fact, look at the new Tyranid Codex. If memory serves, I don't think there's anything in there with a Toughness of more than 6 any more - because at 7 or higher, you're making something immune to a large proportion of small arms fire as well as highly resistant to quite a few heavier weapons. Consequently it becomes too difficult to kill, and isn't at all fun to fight against.

In Epic, the Hierophant was the equivalent to a Warlord Titan. It is in its 40K guise as well. As the rules stand it should be 2000 points at minimum.

eldar have a toughness 8 model with 3+ sane in standard games for 90 point

the nurgle daemonlord has thoughness 9 and 10 wounds with 4+ invulnerable save and he costs 777 points

Bassline
18-01-2010, 10:44
dont he also have fnp ontop of the 4++?

meanmachine
18-01-2010, 10:47
dont he also have fnp ontop of the 4++?

no he doesn't

Daemon Primarch Lorgar
18-01-2010, 11:59
Hahaha I love it when these things happen with the rules! Some old reference to a rule that has been changed and everyone is dumstruck ;). I usually play IG when I play apocalypse (which is the most common expansion we play in our gaming group). I don't understand why people don't play their normal 1.5k games like you would play an apocalypse game it all gets so much funnier if you do. In my group we play with the models we like, simple as that, I for example use Ministorium priests (a pretty useless IC for his points costs) and storm troopers and my friends in turn use whatever they find amusing at the moment. We have decided that garg creatures take d3 wounds from D weapons. Does it say so in the rules? No it doesn't, but it makes sense and we have all agreed that we'll play the game that way :). My friend has got a Hierophant and I laughed my a$$ off when I heard about the rules change for warpfield. Ofcourse I'll let my friend use the 3++ save when we're gonna play apocalypse this friday, I've actually thought the Hierophant to be pretty weak (bracing myself for intense flaming XD!) Maybe it hasn't performed due to all the D weapons running around our gaming table I don't know (an eldar titan takes approx 7 wounds on it/turn :O..). But if it turns out to be a game breaker I know that my dear tyranid playing friend will either:
1 pay more points for his biotitan (someone said 2000?),
2 use the old rules/points
3 the worst possible option IMHO; not fielding his beautiful Hierophant

New rules come and go and let us all pray that some new numbers won't robb us of our love for our wonderfull miniatures ;)!

And please excuse my rusty english. It was a long time since I last wrote anything in this beautiful language ;)!

O&G'sRule
18-01-2010, 23:09
Let's say you rather experience this two times at max and it left an intense impression on you. That is certainly not what happens on average.
0,66 glancing hits and 1,33 penetrating hits per turn per Baneblade.
With that said. Yes the Hierophant is a monster, but not as much as most of the Titans, it's just cheap to please the people willing to pay 210 pounds for a Toy.

I've used it lots of times against Warhounds and reavers and I've never left one alive at the end. I've still never faced a revenant, but once Ive got that cornerned in combat I'm pretty sure It wouldn't fair any better. I've yet to face a warlord either, but for the cost of 1 I can have 2 bio titans and I'm damn sure it wouldn't survive that, unless the board was very very large. On average you usually get chain reaction at least once a game on titan damage chart, so they aren't that hard to kill I find, and if you take out some of the weapons earlier so much the easier. The other advantage its got is the versatility, you can't use titan close combat weapons against smaller opponents, but the hierophant doesn't care what its fighting
I think people are willing to pay the money (I paid 185) because it is probably forgeworld most impressive model to date, even if it is almost untransportable and brittle as hell

O&G'sRule
18-01-2010, 23:19
Your second point demonstrates neatly why GCs wth high toughness should be far, far more expensive overall.

The hierophants toughness works out less that any other titan (all AV14 right?). I mean for example a lascannon needs a 4+ to wound the biotitan, it needs a 6 to wound/penetrate any other titan. You need to be S8 to even scratch them, whereas you need to be S6 to would the tyranid. So I see no reason why its toughness should be a major issue to its points value, its the speed and combat ability that is the issue

Mannimarco
18-01-2010, 23:54
true enough but its a lot easier to limit a titans combat effectivness simply by blowing off a weapon which can be done without to much difficulty but that bio titan stays just as dangerous whether it has full wounds or 1 wound

Formerly Wu
19-01-2010, 00:20
Count me firmly in the "shameless abuse" camp. The apoc entry states that it has the Warp Field psychic power. No such power exists in the new codex.

The rules are pretty clear on this; when a rule refers you to a mechanic that no longer exists, it has no effect. Attempts to claim that the Warp Field [psychic] power is the same as the Warp Field Zoanthrope ability is sophistry at best.

Hierophant Bio-Titan
12-03-2015, 17:45
I'd like to point out that the titan has a 6+ only because if you look at his warp field it's called titan warp field or it was called bio warp field, with is a different special rule and the zoanthropees have a special rule called warp field so to everyone who is asking Just stop lol they are to different rules I know because if you didn't catch my username I love using the titan.

3eland
12-03-2015, 17:58
I'd like to point out that the titan has a 6+ only because if you look at his warp field it's called titan warp field or it was called bio warp field, with is a different special rule and the zoanthropees have a special rule called warp field so to everyone who is asking Just stop lol they are to different rules I know because if you didn't catch my username I love using the titan.

This thread is 5 years old. Everything in it is insanely outdated.

MajorWesJanson
12-03-2015, 17:59
I'd like to point out that this thread was 5 years old...

Hierophant Bio-Titan
12-03-2015, 19:05
It's an active board so for people who need information will read this so I felt the need to update but thank you

R.D.
12-03-2015, 19:48
It's an active board so for people who need information will read this so I felt the need to update but thank you

Nobody cares or is going to look at this thread since. And soon it'll probably be locked.

Hierophant Bio-Titan
12-03-2015, 20:57
Why are you so rude?

Konovalev
12-03-2015, 22:18
It didn't seem rude to me, rather it was factual. Anyone reading about 5 year old rules is going to have a bucket of problems.

MajorWesJanson
12-03-2015, 23:04
While it is often favored to use an existing thread on a topic, the statute of limitations on that tends to expire when rules are updated, much less 5 years and 2 editions of the game ago.
Not trying to be rude (or I would be at DakkaDakka :p )

philbrad2
14-03-2015, 08:48
This thread is 5+ years old, please read the posting guidelines on resurrecting such thread. Closing this one.



PhilB
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