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Darkspear
14-01-2010, 05:59
Why I stop playing dark elves.

I love dark elves. I love the miniatures, I love the fluff, I love the gaming style. I love them so much that they are the reason I pick up the hobby and my DE collection outdo my 40k and other fantasy collections combined. But sadly I have stop playing the army that I love to the core.

The reason?

While many would suspect that the Druchii’s power level is the reason for my “resignation”, it is only half the story. The truth is it’s other Druchii players. I have seen too many druchii players abusing the beautiful gift that was granted to them by Gav Thrope, the latest DE army book. Almost every list I see in D.net or warseer is a dragonlist or some double hydra nonsense or a combination or both. When I surf druchii.net, I no longer read about players brainstorming on ways to defeat their enemies in more innovative/creative ways (you gotta do that back in 6th ed when your list is so weak), now all I read about is “Take this, take that” or “what do i need to XXX”. It is true that the army is stronger but that does not mean that DE players should always go for the easy way out(by taking the broken stuff). Taking the easy way out make you win games very easily, but it also tend to spoil the fun of your opponent.

While one may argue that I should not be bothered on how other people play their games, the hard fact is that other Druchii players form impressions in the minds of other gamers who in turn project this image onto myself. I have always try to take friendlier lists, rarely taking a hydra myself (mainly because as a veteran DE player I know more than enough hydra slaying tricks). The last time I took a dragon was in 6th ed which I stopped after my very first try and realising how broken a dragon is against some armies. However whenever I win games, I was not given the credit but rather I was told that Dark Elves are cheesy. It is not that I want people to praise my “tactical prowess” (personally i doubt warhammer as a game could reveal one’s tactical fitnesse as there are many gamely, counter intuitive rules), but rather it is quite dampening when u end up criticised after each game because of the army you collected.

The impact is so bad that in the latest local tournament, dark elf armies are immediately penalised by comp scores...regardless of what the player fields.
Eventually, I made a decision to stop playing dark elves for the moment. The collection/painting aspect of the hobby has become more important anyway and while I will still continue to paint and do Dark Elven units, I doubt I will see them in the battlefield much till perhaps when the 8th edition arrives.

In the meantime, I am doing dwarves because they look nice.

Rant over.

Ultimate Life Form
14-01-2010, 06:05
In the meantime, I am doing dwarves because they look nice.


A big mistake... :rolleyes:

As one of the few armies that doesn't have some super-huge insta-win button in their list, expect them to get at least three overpowered monstrosities within a year's course (and they will make them pretty much mandatory because they want to sell the models).

ChaosVC
14-01-2010, 06:13
Dude why you so drama. I got make fun and called cheesy for my ASF highelf also mah. Its not like DE is "Daemon Class" overpowered, I thought you only got make fun by power gamers for not taking Hydra in the last tourny. In fact once I finish my Tyranids I am going to do my Dark elves. How others played DE is their problem as long as you do it your own non cheesy way no one will be bothered.

-Grimgorironhide-
14-01-2010, 06:21
If power and cheese is the problem then why not just restrict yourself when designing your lists?

I too hated the cries of cheese etc so I made self restictions for myself. Now my Druchii rely more on my general skills which makes me alot happier.

I.e POK Sorcerers only.
-1 RXB unit per 1000pts
-Only 1 rare (2-1 RBT count as 1) in 2000pts and +1 per 1000
-No ASF Banner on BG
-Never take more than 15 shades in a unit.
-No black dragon until 3000pts
-Never take more characters than the normal restrictions (To restrict assassins)
-No ROH unless I have decent magic offense to help balance it.

Trust me, self restrictions really help tone down the army and make games more enjoyable.

I also understand that many plays auto view Druchii as OP no matter what lists they have. I personally don't care for I know that with the restrictions I added that it is fairly balanced and I would never dish an army I love because of other peoples views on the list.

cheers.

The Red Scourge
14-01-2010, 06:33
The impact is so bad that in the latest local tournament, dark elf armies are immediately penalised by comp scores...regardless of what the player fields.

Congrats. You've now found out that Warhammer isn't a game fit for tournaments :) And that D.net is a place for a sore bunch of emo powerplayers ;)

Its still a fun game though. Just don't expect to go to a tournament and win the endless admiration of your peers in a game that has poor balance and is reliant on dice. And don't go to D.net, as it is obviously a waste of your time :)

Arjuna
14-01-2010, 06:55
Well if you are really playing because you admire the rules and models then none of your propositions about why you are giving them up do not make any sense.

If people dont like your lists then just ignore their whining, they would whine anyway.

If you are playing for fun in a tornament then comp scores are immaterial.

Your post is a pretty epic emo breakdown lol, hopefully it will have purged you and you can go back to the DE army!

Vandelan
14-01-2010, 06:57
I only play casually with my friends and it's kinda funny that I'm suddenly getting almost constant complaining about my Dark Elves at any given moment I mention one of the units or how good they are in certain scenarios. Just the fact that I own a hydra, even though I never actually field it, garners an incredibly annoying amount of complaints.

It's honestly gone from, DE can be made broken to "everything in your armybook is undercosted." Even though I'm starting a small Tomb Kings army to give myself a challenge, I'm frustrated by the attitude coming from other players, especially via the internet. These comp scores are getting entirely out of hand, bringing me to the realization that the game shouldn't be taken that seriously if it is supposed to be played for fun.

I wanted to play the Dark Elves ever since I looked at Fantasy while I was unhappily playing my Chaos Space Marines (which were a few months old at the time). I really got into the feel of the army and I waited months for the new army book to come out. I was very pleased with how the book turned out as there was hardly a unit in the book that I didn't want to play (of course, reality is another thing considering the cost of metal models).

I will continue to play my Dark Elves, but I refuse to play with what I consider to be the best list possible as I instead look to create lists that are fun for me, especially trying different setups for my Dreadlords and Masters or simply using different units than I regularly do.

I will also ignore the cries of the online community about the fairness of the Dark Elves rules as they are simply the results of one of the best army books printed being abused in order to make the lives of their opponents living hell.

Petey
14-01-2010, 07:16
sorry, but 2 hydras is cool and honestly not that hard to kill. I love the way the monsters look on the table. And I'd rather face that then a deathstar unit of Coldoneknights with 3 characters in the front rank.

ChaosVC
14-01-2010, 07:22
sorry, but 2 hydras is cool and honestly not that hard to kill. I love the way the monsters look on the table. And I'd rather face that then a deathstar unit of Coldoneknights with 3 characters in the front rank.

My Double dragon also not very hard to kill, just like my double Abomination, double steam tank and double shaggoth! They are so not very hard to kill.
I would rather face them then a unit of 40 lothern Sea guard with 4 chars deathstar unit.

CraftworldsRus
14-01-2010, 07:25
Congratulations on doing what is most fun for you. I'm glad to hear you can find fun in a Dwarf army. I felt much the same way after playing some games with my Vampire Counts, which resulted in my picking up WoC, an army that seems to be viewed as very mid-level in power.

The important thing is being able to smile when you take out your little plastic men, right? I hope you enjoy your short, bearded, armored men as much as I enjoy my tall, bearded, armored men.

Vermin-thing
14-01-2010, 07:28
I see where your coming from. I've shelved my skaven for the next few months because of fellow gamers bitching about how broken the HPA, and the furnace is. I play a clan mouldar army with giant rats, rat ogres, and HPA(s). It's just a pain in the @ss because I feel pressured by the others in my group to not use units that are part of my army. I am in no way a power gamer, I like to have fun wile moving hundreds of models across the board. Right now I'm working on getting one of my many 40k armies up and ready for a tournament. Why? I just need a break from the wining and the cheese calling. I will be starting a beastmen army in feb, and hopefully the change of scene will re kindle my love of all menbeasts, be it ungors, minotaurs, or skaven.

Darkspear
14-01-2010, 07:58
And don't go to D.net, as it is obviously a waste of your time :)

Druchii.net has been a home for me in the past. It is where i get to know other Druchii players from distant lands (I live in Asia so I am far from the main focus on action) and it often intrigues me on how other people play their battles. Admitedly most of veterens there have since left and move onto other armies. Quite a few become Asur players...(traitors)

ChaosVC
14-01-2010, 08:02
Quite a few become Asur players...(traitors)

You have a problem with that?:skull:

Freman Bloodglaive
14-01-2010, 08:20
Dark Elf players aren't so bad, the new ones are a bit spoiled though. The way they go on when you finally find a way around their stupid 35 point pendant...

Condottiere
14-01-2010, 10:13
Some people like to play with self-imposed restrictions, one way would be to theme your list in such a way that makes it obvious these restrictions exist for you.

But taking a break can do wonders for your perspective.

Lordsaradain
14-01-2010, 10:27
However whenever I win games, I was not given the credit but rather I was told that Dark Elves are cheesy. It is not that I want people to praise my “tactical prowess” (personally i doubt warhammer as a game could reveal one’s tactical fitnesse as there are many gamely, counter intuitive rules), but rather it is quite dampening when u end up criticised after each game because of the army you collected.


I know exactly what you mean and I hate getting this kind of flak too.
That's why there is no point in me using my Daemons or VC when playing (I have DE too, but I don't use them because they need to be repainted, and I only want to play with painted armies), fourtunatly I have my Empire, Orcs and Goblins, Warriors of Chaos and Ogre Kingdom armies to resort to. :P

Fenrir
14-01-2010, 11:36
I stopped using my DE army as I found my daemons to be more of a challenge to use.

wizbix
14-01-2010, 11:48
Don’t give up your favourite army as that would then mean that there will be one less non-power gamer DE general out there. In turn creating more suffering for the rest of us and that would then be your fault! ;):p

Instead, kick those that gripe about your choice swiftly in the groin area that seems to do the trick. :)

Col. Dash
14-01-2010, 13:04
Your reasoning is kinda why I have switched as well. That and I already had a full army painted. Now I have my ADOS issues with building a new army and am stuck wierdly enough between dwarves and lizardmen, both very different from DE. I started to be sucked into the normal DE mindset even before I got online and looked up info. ROH on coldones! Sweet, instant magic defense! Frenzy banner on corsairs, awesome! Hydras... drool.... But after playing my first tourney and seeing the other DE player from a different store playing a list that was different but had the same kind of combos I got a little disillusioned since I was the only local DE player and if someone non-local was using a similar list, just how widespread was it? Currently in my local store, there are no lizardmen and only a slayer army so I'll go with one of them for now.

Sons of Blight
14-01-2010, 13:05
when i play against dark elves I want them to field strong armies - I dont mind being the under dog. It kind of takes away from the game imo - when your opponent isn't doing his best to win.

Razakel
14-01-2010, 13:27
when i play against dark elves I want them to field strong armies - I dont mind being the under dog. It kind of takes away from the game imo - when your opponent isn't doing his best to win.

You have a point, but doesn't it also detract from the game when your opponent is playing an army that you have almost no chance against? I can see myself playing an O&G army, or a Skaven army, of hell even a VC army as the defender in a Last Stand situation.

But I'd rather not waste my time playing Dark Elves when I already know the result. Its humiliating and embarrassing to be crushed and spat on by powerhouse players who swap to the best armies as the times dictate. Worst of all, it isn't fun. I can play a Skaven army, lose and still have fun, from the time when his Hell Pit Abomination rolls an "It's Alive!" result and gets back up on 5 wounds, to when he destroys half his Stormvermin with a Brass Orb.

I find no such joy playing Dark Elves, and I now refuse to play against them.

SilverWarlock
14-01-2010, 13:28
I know what you mean. I personally hate having the FOTM army. As it is ogres are fun (and even if we get a new book I don't see it being a powercreep given skaven and beasts are somewhat more balanced (at least as far as I can tell).

I don't mind my opponents having strong lists, I just like the challenge of not running one myself.

Good luck on dwarfs, they are honestly a bit boring to play but whatever you like.

Vidar
14-01-2010, 13:37
...

When I surf druchii.net, I no longer read about players brainstorming on ways to defeat their enemies in more innovative/creative ways (you gotta do that back in 6th ed when your list is so weak), now all I read about is “Take this, take that” or “what do i need to XXX”.

...

:confused:

I thought druchii.net had the largest and best organised collection of tactics available?

The D.R.A.I.C.H. (http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=55572)
(scroll down)

YTY
14-01-2010, 13:49
-Never take more than 5 shades in a unit.

Corrected it.

PARTYCHICORITA
14-01-2010, 13:50
The thing here is that all armies have a power build and (over)competitive players are always gonna go for it no matter what. That's the reason why tournament lists look so much alike no matter how big the event or where is it play.

On a side note calling a book cheesy just because it beat u is simply poor sportmanship, so IMO u have been stuck with some lame opponents who can't enjoy a game.

Preacher
14-01-2010, 13:51
Wouldn't it be better to design and play lists that didn't abuse the more "powerful" aspects of the book and show other DE players that you can still win and have fun.

It was one of the reason's I wanted to start a DE army actually. There are many other ways to play DE that don't involve 2 Hydras, the pendant, black guard, the banner, etc etc.

When I posted a few list ideas over at druchii, I was met with many comments saying why don't you have "X" in your list, you'll never win without it. I thought it was interesting.

I think its starting to change a little, more lists are showing up with things like, corsairs, exec, RBT, Cauldron.

But when it comes to tournaments, I'd expect to see the stronger builds. Why wouldn't you?

Havock
14-01-2010, 14:04
Why I stop playing dark elves.

(snip)

Rant over.

Ok, let's face it: The dragon/bihydra list is the only really broken thing, if you can shy away from using a dragon as well as filling up two rares with hydras, you are fine really. Dark elves as a whole are priced really competitively, but that's the armybook power creep for you.

Yes Black Guard are awesome compared to last edition; well they sucked back then and T3 and 5+ save is still squishy though. Cold one knights are good, still quite vulnerable with T3 and a 2+ save.

Dragons are easy buttons 99% of the time, they hit too hard and are way too fast. Take something on a manticore, shy away from no brainer items like the pendant of Khaeleth. Hell, I have run a noble on foot with armour of darkness and whip of agony. AoW mini, so yeah :)

I'd say: Get some people together to step away from hardballs tourney lists, that way you won't feel 'required' to take the 'hard' stuff either. Can be refreshing, both for the hobby as a whole and your army.

fubukii
14-01-2010, 16:09
Ok, let's face it: The dragon/bihydra list is the only really broken thing, if you can shy away from using a dragon as well as filling up two rares with hydras, you are fine really. Dark elves as a whole are priced really competitively, but that's the armybook power creep for you.

Yes Black Guard are awesome compared to last edition; well they sucked back then and T3 and 5+ save is still squishy though. Cold one knights are good, still quite vulnerable with T3 and a 2+ save.

Dragons are easy buttons 99% of the time, they hit too hard and are way too fast. Take something on a manticore, shy away from no brainer items like the pendant of Khaeleth. Hell, I have run a noble on foot with armour of darkness and whip of agony. AoW mini, so yeah :)

I'd say: Get some people together to step away from hardballs tourney lists, that way you won't feel 'required' to take the 'hard' stuff either. Can be refreshing, both for the hobby as a whole and your army.

Sure, if we exclude the following

assassins
Pendant
Ring of hotek
ASF banner
Black guard with asf banner
Unkillable lords
SHade stars
any death star de unit really
Other then that everything is just REally good for its cost :) (minus exes and witch elves)

grumbaki
14-01-2010, 16:24
I wouldn't give up on the dark elves, just tone them down like other people suggested. Or go for a fluffy army and people will love you. Such as a city's defense force.

Take multiple units of dark elf spearmen (well priced) and repeater crossbows. Anchor the line with an elite unit (with or without the ASF banner). Take 1 unit of cold one knights (representing the city's nobles) and dark riders. A unit or two of 5 shades, all backed up by 2 or so repeater bolt throwers. Throw in a sorceress with the PoK, a BSB, a dreadlord and either a second sorceress or the ring of hotek, and you would be set. A balanced force of good soldiers and heroes without any monsters or "I win" buttons. Then don't change it based on who you are facing. People would learn to respect you even as they mutter about other dark elf players.

The SkaerKrow
14-01-2010, 16:39
Ok, clearly you aren't a WAAC player, otherwise you wouldn't be having second thoughts about your army. With that in mind...

Ask yourself a question, "do I really think that my army is fair?" If the answer is yes, then stop worrying about it. People complain, and its human nature to seek a scapegoat in order to avoid accountability for defeat or failure. Don't take it to heart, and don't put your favorite army on the shelf because there are immature players in your gaming group.

Also, understand that Dark Elves are the most hated army in Warhammer (yes, even above Daemons). This isn't new, they were pretty despised in 6th Edition as well. You will always have some players that get irrationally upset about losing, and you'll always have more who do so about losing against Dark Elves. These people are, almost without exception, both very vocal and very uninformed. Gamers like this aren't worth your concern. Warhammer is permissive, if they really have a problem with your army, they'll simply opt not to play against you.

fubukii
14-01-2010, 16:51
Ok, clearly you aren't a WAAC player, otherwise you wouldn't be having second thoughts about your army. With that in mind...

Ask yourself a question, "do I really think that my army is fair?" If the answer is yes, then stop worrying about it. People complain, and its human nature to seek a scapegoat in order to avoid accountability for defeat or failure. Don't take it to heart, and don't put your favorite army on the shelf because there are immature players in your gaming group.

Also, understand that Dark Elves are the most hated army in Warhammer (yes, even above Daemons). This isn't new, they were pretty despised in 6th Edition as well. You will always have some players that get irrationally upset about losing, and you'll always have more who do so about losing against Dark Elves. These people are, almost without exception, both very vocal and very uninformed. Gamers like this aren't worth your concern. Warhammer is permissive, if they really have a problem with your army, they'll simply opt not to play against you.


I think skaerkrow hit it on the head, people always complain about everything and you should just use what you like. I play alot of armies, and have good win loss records with all of them, but people generally enjoy playing me even if i grind them into dust. Sometimes though at tournaments people will walk by and complain "HISS daemons so brokenz" and then you look at thier army and its 4 characters and a assassin in a black guard unit, or 40+ shades, etc 15pd vc etc.

Moral of the story ppl love to complain and sometimes cant accept that maybe they lost due to their tactical skills.

TheDarkDuke
14-01-2010, 17:00
God forbid a person likes dragons, hydras and blackguard models so much that they decide to start a dark elf army and use them and then they are considered cheese..... oh wait thats me.

So your telling me to quit the army i like because alot of the models I really like just happened to be strong? you realise not every one just makes competitive lists intentionally right? maybe they are like me and love the models so want to make a army with them as a centre piece.

Sad part is its probably my only strong army i have and i never intentionally make my army crazy strong, just like im sure alot of other people are like as well. i had this army back in 6th edition where black guard were garbage as well as the hydra. but now that they are finally good i have to stop using them?:wtf:

I'm sorry but all this whining is just getting sad. Just ENJOY the game (yeah i know that must be like speaking some form of alien language to some people) or quit.

selone
14-01-2010, 17:01
Enjoy playing your hobby :)

kaubin
14-01-2010, 17:03
I`ve started playing Dark Elves and was faced with similiar kinds of attitudes as you. To be frank, unknowingly the group I had stepped into already had 3 dark elf players, and one with a power-build reputation. I stuck to units I liked and didn`t go for most of the popular items. I personally hate ring of hotek because i`m a fan of magic, and after a few games against high elves, I decided to stop taking Hag Graef banner, as I think it`s not fun as a unit-wide rule. I always run chariots and a cauldron, out of love for the models, and concentrate a lot more on close combat elves than shooty-elves.

The responses were positive. The comment I get the most is that the lists I use are not as frustrating as usual. I personally think that one of the things people hate the most about dark elves is the crossbows. Take more than 25 and you`re shooting off over 50 shots a turn that pierce armour, which can be extremely frustrating.

I have had people categorically refuse to play against me because I play Dark Elves though, but that has not happened very frequently. I have decided to get a second army, Orcs and Goblins, to give myself more of a challenge, to be able to take anything I like, and to have fun. You could try putting your army away for a while if you`d like, or try tweeking it down by staying away from too much shooting.

Pacorko
14-01-2010, 17:14
Well, I'm a Druchii player (I started with them, actually) and I loathe the hydras... model-wise. Love the Black Guard and really enjoy to field in-your-face CC armies rather than fielding shooty-monster ones.

So, if your list is fair and you make good use of it, let the whiners do their thing and look silly because of it. Just enjoy your games and if these guys keep you from it, find other places where people is not so intente on winning that they cry because of your choice of army.

Lastly, individuals actually refusing to PLAY A GAME are just laughable. It talks a lot more about them than the Druchii player.

My motto has always been: "Take them as you deal them, laddy."

Grey Man
14-01-2010, 17:15
I've played DE since 6th ed. Before the revision. I started them when they were the worst army in the game. Back then, druchii.net was the best site on the web for warhammer tactics. Folks on there really knew there stuff and would gladly share. It still has the greatest compilation of tactics you'll find anywhere. But since they are easier to do well with now than before, that has tapered some. The community is not what it was once was. But I still play my DE. Why? Because I have fun with them. And the guys in my group not only don't mind, they welcome and encourage strong builds. If you want to quit the DE, though, have at it. It's a game. It should be fun. If it's not, stop. So long as you own the choice and don't blame anyone else for it (and you aren't), I'm cool with it.

Sons of Blight
14-01-2010, 17:20
bring your hydra's and your dragons and face my lucK!

BranWheatKillah
14-01-2010, 17:38
Glad to see I picked the most broken army in the game to play?

I just got into Warhammer Fantasy and Skaven were going to be my first choice to play but my local shop's owner plays Skaven as does a couple of other players in my area. I figured I would go with my second choice, Dark Elves, since no one was currently playing them.

I remember looking through the books for Dark Elves 12ish years ago and thinking they were really cool. Apparently they are both cool and overpowered now.

Not sure how I feel about playing a "cheesy" army but considering this is my first foray into the game, hopefully that will temper their strength a bit.

Condottiere
14-01-2010, 17:46
Dark Elves have a very balanced list - maybe the phrase we're looking for is finely balanced, as anything could place it out of kilter. It's hard to pass up the natural advantages that the current list gives, but that's where theming comes in. and in your local group, you can always agree on some general and specific limitations that encompass all lists.

The SkaerKrow
14-01-2010, 17:49
They aren't the most broken army in the game by any stretch. They just have some obnoxious builds available to them, which are easily avoided. Believe it or not, the army can actually be quite a challenge to play, owing to the fact that it has to contend with low Toughness across the board, unimpressive (or non-existent) armor saves on many of their troops and psychology effects such as Stupidity and Frenzy.

outbreak
14-01-2010, 23:27
How about trying a themed list? I'm starting a de army sometime later this year (got a bunch of old models cheap) and plan on doing a cult of khaine list. If you tell peopel i play "such and such themed list" their less likely to jump to cheese accusations.

soots
14-01-2010, 23:45
Unfortunately you're a fart in the wind.

GW powercreep is working. Powerplayers are buying the new armies and GW will continue the creep.

Havock
14-01-2010, 23:50
Sure, if we exclude the following

assassins
Pendant
Ring of hotek
ASF banner
Black guard with asf banner
Unkillable lords
SHade stars
any death star de unit really
Other then that everything is just REally good for its cost :) (minus exes and witch elves)

1- assassins are good but they can't carry the list on their own. They still cost a fair chunk of points..
2- Pendant: Yes, if it was capped at what amounts to a 3+ ward it would be fine, that or up the cost by, say, 20 pts. It's not the biggest problem though,
3- Ring of hotek is annoying, yes, a scroll and that thing takes care of your magic defense, especially with a compact dragon/CoK/bihydra list.
4- BG with asf are still T3 and have a 5+ save. The fact that they are stubborn and ITP on Ld9 is a bigger merit.
5- Unkillable lords: see pendant.
6- As you said, any death star unit, and the shadestar is a one-trick pony. Any shadestar unit is more a case of being incredibly boring and annoying to play against really.

Executioners and witch elves lack the ability to be joined by a BSB that is protected by more than a loincloth.

Hrogoff the Destructor
15-01-2010, 00:01
Darkspear, why should you let the people that take "the easy way out" slow down your army?

If you want to take a slightly underpowered Dark Elf list, go for it. Who cares what other people think?

I swear that every time I play at GW, someone comes up to me and says "Well, why are you using XXXXXX when you could be using XXXXXX?"

Why? Because I want to! It's not uncommon for me to take units that are underpowered just to fit the feel and look I want for my current army list.

I really must applaud a Dark Elf player that uses variety, as it is not something you see around where I play. I swear that 50% of the Fantasy players around here are DE (okay, 50% is a slight exaggeration), and they all use virtually the exact same army build. You see the exact same items, tactics, unit choices, and character designs 10/10 times. What about the other 75% of the army book they don't use?

So who cares if other players abuse the DE book? It doesn't mean their playstyle needs to influence how you play your army.

Brother Edwin
15-01-2010, 01:43
I find that although you would think geeks to be very intellegent, most of the people who do this hobby don't actually think about it at all.

In your example they hear people say on a forum or whatever about dark elves being over powerd and then label yours over powerd without actually thinking as to if your actual armylist is or not.

I had the exact same thing with VC. I was sick of playing my hardest to get a well derserved win only to be told by a random GW newb that my army is a no brainer auto-win button.

Because of this I now play wood elves and simply hide in woods all game stranglerooting people because I don't need los for it. And yet because I am wood elves which as a whole are not considerd over powerd I get no complaints.

In the words of Napolian Dynamyte.

"God!"

"*******, idiots!"

szlachcic
15-01-2010, 02:35
I really must applaud a Dark Elf player that uses variety, as it is not something you see around where I play. I swear that 50% of the Fantasy players around here are DE (okay, 50% is a slight exaggeration), and they all use virtually the exact same army build. You see the exact same items, tactics, unit choices, and character designs 10/10 times. What about the other 75% of the army book they don't use?

Not surprising, why make your own list when people on the internet have already done all the hard work for you. Seriously though, someone without a WAAC attitude can make a very fun and still effective DE army using the book. It is just all the power gamers that jumped onto the DE bandwagon that gives the army a bad name. Like you say, most of the power builds are very similar and only use a portion of the options in the book.

As always, use what you think is fun. Whether that means fun to play, fun to paint, etc. all that matters is that you (and hopefully your opponent lol) get some form of enjoyment from it.

ChaosVC
15-01-2010, 04:20
I think he had been affected by the Dark elf army wide rule~Hatred. Now he hates dark elf army and get a reroll to hit the army book which I get to see this week end heheh. Yes I know him in person, I can take a picture of him rerolling to hit the book and pursue it as it breaks from combat! Whoopi Do!

Don Zeko
15-01-2010, 05:05
If you like the fluff, models, and playstyle, play a slightly underpowered list and ignore people that still give you crap. I had a reasonably good performance this weekend in a tournament with a list that had no dragon, no BG, no pendant, no ring, only 1 assassin and only 1 hydra.

With the current book, you have an army that can be competitive enough to have fun with a lot of different playstyles; take advantage of it instead of letting your expensive minis sit on a shelf because some people are dicks and others can't get over how those dicks play the list.

Petey
15-01-2010, 05:41
My Double dragon also not very hard to kill, just like my double Abomination, double steam tank and double shaggoth! They are so not very hard to kill.
I would rather face them then a unit of 40 lothern Sea guard with 4 chars deathstar unit.

Love the sarcasm, gj you win at english. :rolleyes:

Condottiere
15-01-2010, 05:59
Once an army book has the ability to create a Deathstar unit, it does tend to get stigmatized, though TBH the lack of thought regarding the costing of certain items didn't help.

Aliarzathanil
15-01-2010, 06:03
We switch side sometimes (the other player plays you with your army, you play him with his). It can be a real eye opener. A lot of things that seem overpowered are revealed to be harder to use. It also let's you learn the weakness of their list and yours. We even had a tourneys with your army randomly determined each round.
We occasionally play games where we design the other players list with the worst possible combos and units. Shaking things up can make it a more enjoyable game than constant pitched battles with optimized lists.

ChaosVC
15-01-2010, 06:16
Love the sarcasm, gj you win at english. :rolleyes:

Huh? You mean hydra is actually hard to kill? No kidding! Ah my english is good! :rolleyes:

Vermin-thing
15-01-2010, 09:48
He he he. At one point in time I attempted to start a DE army. The units that really stood out for me (in a fluff perspective) were corsairs, darkriders, spearmen, and shades. I think you know where this is going...








:D












SHADESTAR!!!1!



:cries:

I was going to field at around 2k:

Dreadlord, 2 nobels, or 1 noble, and fellheart. 3 assassins.

Core: 10 corsairs, 3 units of 5 DRs, 2 X 15 spearmen.

Special: 4 X 10 shades.

Rare: nothing.

After looking at the shadestar for dummies article on druchii.net I can't bring myself to complete the army. So how do you take the cheese out of cheese? An inquiring mind would like to know. I might just try the army with no magic items save for fellheart, and some assassin upgrades. The idea behind the army was a corsair scouting army which was linked to fellhearst's black arc.

The SkaerKrow
15-01-2010, 13:55
Drop the Assassins, take more Corsairs, lose a single unit of Shades. Reaper Bolt Throwers are also very much in theme for a Black Ark army, so don't be afraid to use them.

Rogue
15-01-2010, 15:51
I just had my first experience with a shadestar/Hydra combo last weekend with my dwarves last weekend in a tournament. Ironically I also was overpowered with my dwarves and his magic. I had a lot of bad luck in that game and perhaps there were a few deployment mistakes that I should have done, but overall the shadestar and the magic owned me.

I also played a DE army that would be considered to be nowhere near this abusive, and this was a close game until the 6th where I broke two units and got a solid victory. Truth be told I would play both again atleast once, but the non offensive army is something that I would play against and with any time. The other army seemed booring to me.

I dont do an abusive dwarf army with a gunline and anvil which would give the first army a run for its money and own the other army because that is booring to me. It is the reason why I get weird looks when I play with my combat heavy army. With that in mind, I would have to say that most armies can make an abusive build for their lists.

I know what the OP is going through, if you read just about every topic on this forum about Dwarves it seems that you have a ton of people who complain about how booring a Dwarf Gunline is. To the OP, I would say that play your army the way that you want and have fun with them. I would proabably limit my trips to tournaments if you can help it and have more fun games for the sake of fun. Perhaps setting up a campaign with no winnings to liven things up. This is a social game so try to develop a group to play with that accepts that you dont have nasty lists.

Odin
15-01-2010, 16:09
My regular opponent and I have rewritten the rules for most of our armies, Dark Elves in particular. He plays with a DE army, and his first suggestion was for the Hydra to cost an extra 30 points (we all know it's necessary).

theunwantedbeing
15-01-2010, 16:14
My regular opponent and I have rewritten the rules for most of our armies, Dark Elves in particular. He plays with a DE army, and his first suggestion was for the Hydra to cost an extra 30 points (we all know it's necessary).

Or DE players can quit taking tournament lists and their opponents can learn to play a little better or take more powerful lists?

RGB
15-01-2010, 16:58
Or DE players can quit taking tournament lists and their opponents can learn to play a little better or take more powerful lists?

So the solution is to either participate in the power creep and army-nastiness escalation, or to learn to play n00b? That's nice :D

Darkspear
15-01-2010, 16:59
I felt compelled to comment after seeing how this thread has grown.

To be honest, I have tried everything you guys have suggested regarding playing dark elves alternatively. I tried themed armies, toned down armies and various other versions. And after all this time, it does not really help. To give credit to my opponents, they do not blast dark elves as passionately as they do to daemons. :)

I am quite keen on Dwarves as I like all the models in the range and it happened that I can get a 2000 points army at around 200 SGD (Singapore dollars). The gameplay do not really matter to me that much because when you become a veteran warhammer player, your collection gets so big that you can easily switch armies whenever you become tired of one of them. Rules change all the time, it is the look of the minatures that truly matter. This is the reason why I wanted to do dwarves and is also the reason why I feel that it will be not long before some rules changes and I can take my dark elves into the battlefield again.

ChaosVC: I do not know what you are talking about, you are the biggest critic of darkelves in the group. But you complain everytime you lose anyway. :) By the way, that sentence that you typed regarding double-dragons, double abominations etc was indeed grammartically incorrect. Of course Petey would not know that we are not native English speakers.


:confused:

I thought druchii.net had the largest and best organised collection of tactics available?

The D.R.A.I.C.H. (http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=55572)
(scroll down)

The tactics that are posted in the past year or so are far from the quality that exists back in the 6th ed days. (Yes I know I sound like a longbeard now), the only good one I can think of at this moment is the one where we are given very specific scenarios and are expected to give comments (can't really recall the name of that thread).

guillaume
15-01-2010, 17:35
I honestly think you should just take a break from DE (a year or so), get into another army and get back to DE after a while. By then, there will be plenty more beatching about the newer armies and no-one will moan that you are playing DE.

I have taken breaks from armies, and it makes coming back to them even sweeter.

Tae
15-01-2010, 18:22
I can sympathise with the OP a lot. About 3/4 months after the 7th Ed book was released I simply couldn't see a viable DE army without all the 'cheese' (for want of a better word), which pissed me off having loved my DE since about 4th/5th Ed.

However after about 12 months or so of playing with just my WoC instead I came back to DE and tried again. This time I've managed to write a list without any of the 'abuse' in it.

No Assassins.
No Rings
No Black Guard
No Deathstars
No ASF banners

Yes, I have the Pendant but it's on a Level 4 mage, so it's her only protection (arrows hurt!), only 1 Hydra and only 10 shades.

Is it as effective as some others out there? No, probably not. But I enjoy it and my opponents enjoy it playing against it, even if they get owned by it.

UberBeast
15-01-2010, 18:38
I wholeheartedly agree that all army books aren't created equal, and I agree that some armies need revisited. That being said I am always a proponent of improving the playability of all of the weak armies before worrying about nerfing the supposed powerful armies.

I just think that it's possible that many of the things that people think are overpowered are a direct result of having army books that are sub-par. That being said I prefer a more proactive approach to army balance, that being to power-up the weak books instead of nerfing the powerful books.

That being said I think anyone who takes the time to whine about how any one army book is OP needs a good smack in the head. Sportsmanship is a two way street. Someone willingly playing a weak army in a competitive environment is as much at fault for an unbalanced game as someone who is purposely playing a strong army. You might say that it's unfair that your favorite army has a weak book, but is it then fair for you to attack people for playing their favorite army which has a strong book?

O&G'sRule
15-01-2010, 19:25
A big mistake... :rolleyes:

As one of the few armies that doesn't have some super-huge insta-win button in their list,

Other than thorek obviously.


What others do with their DE's is their problem, I don't see why anyone would stop playing an army because a few others like to powergame. And on the whole it is just a few, the people that rant on here aren't exactly the norm. You can take what you like, as long as you don't just go out to steamroller your opponents into the ground. There shouldn't be a "banned item, selection", thats just as bad if not worse

Skyth
15-01-2010, 20:21
It's kinda sad that people that are more concerned about controlling what thier opponent plays than what they are bringing have again chased someone away from something they love.

People like that are one of the biggest reasons I don't play 40k any more.

UberBeast
15-01-2010, 20:30
It's kinda sad that people that are more concerned about controlling what thier opponent plays than what they are bringing have again chased someone away from something they love.

People like that are one of the biggest reasons I don't play 40k any more.

Two thumbs up! :yes: :yes:

fubukii
15-01-2010, 21:41
I wholeheartedly agree that all army books aren't created equal, and I agree that some armies need revisited. That being said I am always a proponent of improving the playability of all of the weak armies before worrying about nerfing the supposed powerful armies.

I just think that it's possible that many of the things that people think are overpowered are a direct result of having army books that are sub-par. That being said I prefer a more proactive approach to army balance, that being to power-up the weak books instead of nerfing the powerful books.

That being said I think anyone who takes the time to whine about how any one army book is OP needs a good smack in the head. Sportsmanship is a two way street. Someone willingly playing a weak army in a competitive environment is as much at fault for an unbalanced game as someone who is purposely playing a strong army. You might say that it's unfair that your favorite army has a weak book, but is it then fair for you to attack people for playing their favorite army which has a strong book?

excellent post and agree 100%

RGB
15-01-2010, 23:03
I wholeheartedly agree that all army books aren't created equal, and I agree that some armies need revisited. That being said I am always a proponent of improving the playability of all of the weak armies before worrying about nerfing the supposed powerful armies.

That's a dead end idea, because it necessitates the creation of more rules that are hard to balance, thereby never establishing anything approaching parity among the books. But since that's exactly what GW seems to want to do, it's not going to change.


I just think that it's possible that many of the things that people think are overpowered are a direct result of having army books that are sub-par. That being said I prefer a more proactive approach to army balance, that being to power-up the weak books instead of nerfing the powerful books.

The trouble with that is that unless the list has superb internal balance (DE are nasty whichever way you play them) all "nasty" builds look exactly the same. That limits the enjoyment and the variety of the game.


That being said I think anyone who takes the time to whine about how any one army book is OP needs a good smack in the head. Sportsmanship is a two way street.

That's silly for two reasons:

1. Without whining, WH players have nothing to talk about. Whining is part of the hobby, like it or not.
2. Sportsmanship is a two way street indeed. You bring a broken army, I ruin your day by whining about it. Seems fair and even.


Someone willingly playing a weak army in a competitive environment is as much at fault for an unbalanced game as someone who is purposely playing a strong army.

Blaming the victim is rarely an easy sell, but in this case it is especially silly. Some armies simply don't have builds - any builds - that come close to the newer books. Putting away your beloved army and spending 1000 dollars on another one is not something most people can afford or want to do.


You might say that it's unfair that your favorite army has a weak book, but is it then fair for you to attack people for playing their favorite army which has a strong book?

I might and I will, and to top it off I will point out that you're constructing a strawman. Most people bring strong armies because they're strong, and not because they really really really love them. If that wasn't the case, GW's bottom line would suffer. FOTM rules.

If you just so happen to be among the minority that stuck with DE through the underpowered army book in 6th, well - to be honest, I'll be able to tell at once. You'll likely have older models and a better attitude, for one, and you'll be excellent with flanking and charge distance guessing. If people are whining at you, you are probably not the person I described above.

I hope this was as offensive to you as your original post was to me.

Scibadi
16-01-2010, 00:20
I've been away from the hobby for 2(ish) years and this topic is making me dread going back into my local GW for a game :D

UberBeast
16-01-2010, 00:42
I hope this was as offensive to you as your original post was to me.

If that is the case then you must not have been offended at all. I've looked through your post three times now and I can't figure out why anything either of us have posted would have been offensive. As near as I can tell you simply disagree with me, and that's quite allright with me!

Maybe if you could write your replies in paragraph form instead of cutting my post to ribbons and then inserting single sentence responses I might be able to figure out the meat of your opinions?

Havock
16-01-2010, 01:18
The pendant of Khaeleth is fine on a wizard.
The Pendant is not 'cool' 'fun' or 'nice' on a dreadlord with a 1+ armorsave and regen.

Then again, the regen means it doesn't have caledor's bane.

RGB
16-01-2010, 01:22
As near as I can tell you simply disagree with me, and that's quite allright with me!

Excellent.

You've even resisted responding to flagrant hyperbole. Then we have nothing further to discuss in an antagonistic fashion.

As to quote-response, I like doing that, one point at a time. As far as my serious opinion goes, it's actually a difficult balance of bad behaviour on the part of the whiner vs. a person whose army is just no fun to play at all. Granted, you can always find other opponents in both cases, but generally speaking opponents that stick around are hard to find. Most people start and then stop soon after. It's not an easy system to learn.

Condottiere
16-01-2010, 01:31
For some controversial issues, the best that could be said is that the interpretation was not as intended by the author, though that usually doesn't say much for the author's analytical skills, nor wargaming ability.

Terraneaux
16-01-2010, 07:06
For some controversial issues, the best that could be said is that the interpretation was not as intended by the author, though that usually doesn't say much for the author's analytical skills, nor wargaming ability.

Or the company that employs him.

The Red Scourge
16-01-2010, 08:24
Someone willingly playing a weak army in a competitive environment is as much at fault for an unbalanced game as someone who is purposely playing a strong army. You might say that it's unfair that your favorite army has a weak book, but is it then fair for you to attack people for playing their favorite army which has a strong book?

GW wholly agrees with this sentiment, and encourages you to head to your nearest store and get some daemons, when you find the game a bit unbalanced ;)

ChaosVC
16-01-2010, 19:50
ChaosVC: I do not know what you are talking about, you are the biggest critic of darkelves in the group. But you complain everytime you lose anyway. :) By the way, that sentence that you typed regarding double-dragons, double abominations etc was indeed grammartically incorrect. Of course Petey would not know that we are not native English speakers.


WAh! Low blow man! I own dark elf also leh so putting words and making false accusation on me in this forum doesn't work leh I infact say I love the cheese in the new DE because I started DE in 6th ed leh. If like that also can, I can also say you whine about High Elf is being cheesy everytime you lose to my me lor!:evilgrin: An Bargjiu for a Bargjiu!

What you no like my english you come and sue me loh.:rolleyes:

leeoaks
16-01-2010, 22:44
don't really see what the fuss is all about. everyone takes things so seriously. its a game, write a list play with it, if you don't like it change it, if you dont like the army get a different one. write your own lists dont lift them and i cant see an issue.