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hendybadger
14-01-2010, 22:16
I have been reading alot of the Tyranid threads on here over the last few days.
And a large amount of them are 'I hate the new Codex' disscussions.
Does nobody love or even like the new codex?
I have been a Tyranid player for 5 years now and this Codex is the best thing that has happened to my army in that time.
Whats not to love about Trygons, Swarmlords, Tyrannofexes, and so many more options in the book?
The units that have no models are great for all Tyranid players that love converting aliens. No limits, let your hobby run wild!

If you love the book, why?

Rant End!

IJW
14-01-2010, 22:19
Hive Guard and 3W Warriors make great counts-as units for my Zoats. :)

hendybadger
14-01-2010, 22:20
With the range of 40mm creatures there are now you could even create a whole fleet of new Zoats

Gottkaiser
14-01-2010, 22:24
It appears to me that the new codex is nice. It has a lot of stuff in it that seems to work fine. There are more viable options then before, and different lists seem to be possible. I own my army since 2nd Ed and I own enough minis not to care if one or two of them are worthless. Lictors don't work? Fine, didn't use them in last edition either. Gaunts are back in the game for me, and as a swarm player I am happy with that.
The Tervigons seem a bit too good to be true, I see no real reason not taking them. Apart from that, every entry seems to be replacable.
Thus: I'm happy, my opponents are happy that they can play against nids not coming in the old Nidzilla flavour.

The Custodian
14-01-2010, 22:26
I like it, it's just this place has a way of depressing you....

Radium
14-01-2010, 22:26
I haven't seen the book in that much detail, but so far it seems great.

Problem is, you usually don't hear people when they're content ;).

hendybadger
14-01-2010, 22:27
I haven't seen the book in that much detail, but so far it seems great.

Problem is, you usually don't hear people when they're content ;).

Thats very true.

Zanzibarthefirst
14-01-2010, 22:27
I have been reading alot of the Tyranid threads on here over the last few days.
And a large amount of them are 'I hate the new Codex' disscussions.
Does nobody love or even like the new codex?
I have been a Tyranid player for 5 years now and this Codex is the best thing that has happened to my army in that time.
Whats not to love about Trygons, Swarmlords, Tyrannofexes, and so many more options in the book?
The units that have no models are great for all Tyranid players that love converting aliens. No limits, let your hobby run wild!

If you love the book, why?

Rant End!

People arent complaining about the conversion possibilities, whicih IMO are briliant, I cannot wait to build my Parasite, their complaint is the rather poorly written nature of the book especially when compared to other books. there seems to be so many options which are either overcosted or pointless

librerian_samae
14-01-2010, 22:29
I'm loving the new dex, my old army is pretty much as it was,
but more effective and actualy cheeper.

Heck, I'm even able to use a few models I originaly did just for looking pretty on the shelf (im looking at you babyphant as a tervigon and you huge bat wing warrior as parasite of mortex :D ) plus to top it all I get even more fun modeling opertunities with things like the harpy and tyranid prime.

rules wise im loving the direction of multiple pop up, drop down threats the new codex seems to be doing I may even try an all flying/tunneling list rounded out with a couple of devilgaunt spore units.

Bring on saturday, I can't wait.

enygma7
14-01-2010, 22:31
I've still to make my mind up having only just got the book and not had a chance to actually read it yet. On the plus side I love the wide range of units and interesting new additions and the proliferation of novel deployment and movement options. An army based around attacking from all directions could be great fun and the book seems to have the potentual to produce a much for interesting and tactical game rather than just "run towards the enemy getting as much cover as possible". Hive guard finally give me something to take out transports - the bane of my life with the previous codex. Also a plus, my 1500pt army is still a 1500pt army! So I can carry on playing and add new units as I paint.

On the negative side though, all my monsterous creatures and tyranid warriors seem to have gone up in price an down in effectiveness. Without their 2+ saves I'm worried my three big guys don't have the resilience to justify their new price tag (regen and life leech have potentual to eek this out a bit though). I suspect that whilst playable my army will have lost out in competetiveness (it wasn't a cheese build to begin with) such that I'll need to make some major alterations to get an army that fully synergises.

EDIT: I'd just like to add though that I'm actually really looking forward to adapting my army because the more mobile style of play with interesting unit synergies really appeals to me. I just suspect 2 hive tyrants isn't a good build now. Dropping one for a trygon seems a good quick fix.

Dreachon
14-01-2010, 22:31
First of all let's get rid of some misunderstandings which seem to get brought up from time to time, nobody is complaining about the models, their just that good, IMO a great amount of love and time has been invested in the models and this is obivious.

The main complaint comes from what appears poor internal balance within the codex.
Having sank my teeth into the codex I have to say it has not been properly play tested or it was play tested somewhere were players don't know what really happens in the world of wargaming.

Do I love the codex? no, do I hate it? hell no.

Shebnar
14-01-2010, 22:37
Me and my buddies have had a great time playing Nids vs IG last week (with updated nids rules, of course, and some proxy models ;) ).

I think the Codex is *great*, it does justice to the fluff without throwing in some unreasonable stuff (like AC and Phil Kelly did with the last one). Not to mention that the army is both competitive and variegated, and the hateful mono-X lists are less promoted.

It's a 10/10 to me.

hendybadger
14-01-2010, 22:45
People arent complaining about the conversion possibilities, whicih IMO are briliant, I cannot wait to build my Parasite, their complaint is the rather poorly written nature of the book especially when compared to other books. there seems to be so many options which are either overcosted or pointless

I dont think there has been enough games played by the general public yet to say that something is over costed or pointless.
Even if there are a couple of units that are no where near as good as others, they are fluffy and definatly something that should be part of the army. Not every unit has to be perfect. Some of us like to pick what we like and not just what will win.

CapnBob
14-01-2010, 22:45
My main hatred for it is that my hormagaunts and carnifexes are now overall weaker than they have been in any of the previous 3 codices. Also we have the fewer biomorph options than in any previous codex, including 2nd edition. Much of the codex is nearly useless because of redundant roles. The new fluff is mostly awful. I put together a list of downgrades and disappointments, then made a list of upgrades and improvements, and the disappointments outnumbered the improvements by more than 3 to 1. My feeling is that it's written by someone who thinks of Tyranids as an adversaries list, not a list that people make their primary army.

Vepr
14-01-2010, 22:46
I don't love or hate the new codex. I have achieved a zen state of ambivalence towards it. :p

It will probably grow on me eventually though.

RampagingRavener
14-01-2010, 22:47
Having sank my teeth into the codex I have to say it has not been properly play tested or it was play tested somewhere were players don't know what really happens in the world of wargaming.

Welcome to almost every 40k Codex ever.

One of the things I'm most looking forward to, is Zoanthropes being good for more than cheap-ish tough Synapse and Psychic Scream. Warp Lance looks like it's actually going to be a formidable tank killer this time around - short-ranged, sure, but I don't envy whatever vehicle finds themselves within 18" of a Zoanthrope brood. The fact that they're still Synapse Creatures on top of this just makes them even more attractive.

hendybadger
14-01-2010, 22:48
My main hatred for it is that my hormagaunts and carnifexes are now overall weaker than they have been in any of the previous 3 codices. Also we have the fewer biomorph options than in any previous codex, including 2nd edition. Much of the codex is nearly useless because of redundant roles. The new fluff is mostly awful. I put together a list of downgrades and disappointments, then made a list of upgrades and improvements, and the disappointments outnumbered the improvements by more than 3 to 1. My feeling is that it's written by someone who thinks of Tyranids as an adversaries list, not a list that people make their primary army.

Then maybe they are not for you. I like the changes, it makes it more interesting. Playing new units and tactics that are different to the last few years

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 22:48
They seem a lot more interesting, entertaining, and generally fun to play as with the new codex.

hendybadger
14-01-2010, 22:49
NO longer will people just see NId-Zilla or swarm. there are now so many variations that will be just as good

Zanzibarthefirst
14-01-2010, 22:50
I woud largue that it isnt variegated as all the competitive armies are going to be warrior primes, zoanthropes, hive guard, termangants/tervigons and trygons. Hive Tyrants are overcosted for what they do while the less said about the carnifex the better.

I woudl love for my old army to be worth using nidzilla/ stealer shock but both elements have been nerfed in favour of list outlined above. A codex shouldnt have to nerf one list to extinction in roder to get peopeol to use other units, what it shoudl do is make other lists more competitive in roder to create competiton for precious FOC slots. Regretably there are far too many no-brainer options now

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 22:52
You can still do all your old stuff just fine.
It's not like the options you used at one point no longer exists, but just like with the 'new' tau, the tyranids require a whole lot of arm-chopping if you want to be 'competitive.'

Vepr
14-01-2010, 22:53
My main hatred for it is that my hormagaunts and carnifexes are now overall weaker than they have been in any of the previous 3 codices. Also we have the fewer biomorph options than in any previous codex, including 2nd edition. Much of the codex is nearly useless because of redundant roles. The new fluff is mostly awful. I put together a list of downgrades and disappointments, then made a list of upgrades and improvements, and the disappointments outnumbered the improvements by more than 3 to 1. My feeling is that it's written by someone who thinks of Tyranids as an adversaries list, not a list that people make their primary army.

Interesting take on it and it. Maybe Cruddace had some trouble detaching himself from IG? IG and SW seem to be up hill battles for the new Nids at least in my limited play testing with them so far.

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 22:57
It's more likely that your build is weak against whatever build of guardsmen or space foxes you're up against.

Try using other units before dismissing the book as weak.

Zanzibarthefirst
14-01-2010, 23:00
You can still do all your old stuff just fine.
It's not like the options you used at one point no longer exists, but just like with the 'new' tau, the tyranids require a whole lot of arm-chopping if you want to be 'competitive.'

I wouldn't consider shelving my 3 carnifexs, 1 hive tyrant and 3 tyrant guard are a lot of arm chopping. Quite frankly they are not competitive.

To anyone who thinks they will see new types of lists coming up I seriously beg to differ. i bet if you look on the tacitca forum you will see the same list coming up time after time.

2 Warrior Prime
2/3 Hive Guard
2/3 Zoanthropes
Another unit of oen fot he above
2 or three units of termagants plus their attached tervigon
3 trygons

If you see someone using pyrovores or harpies please send my a PM

MystheDevourer
14-01-2010, 23:02
I don't love or hate the new codex. I have achieved a zen state of ambivalence towards it. :p

It will probably grow on me eventually though.

That is the nearest point that I am at. I will get use to it just like everyone else that still wishes to play nids.

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 23:05
Your large monsters were seriously undercosted previously, and now they're more appropriately costed to tanks, characters, and everything else out there, really.

They're still good, just not good and cheap.

Vepr
14-01-2010, 23:11
It's more likely that your build is weak against whatever build of guardsmen or space foxes you're up against.

Try using other units before dismissing the book as weak.

I have been. I have played over three games against each mainly to try out different units. As of yesterday I am up to 4 on IG and 5 on SW and around 20 games total. Some of the early games were with the leaked dex though.

Admittedly I was not trying to come up with the most competitive list as much as I was playing around with new units to see what they can do. I have been trying to work out unit support and synergy which can be nasty when you can pull it off.

The problem with IG is that they can bring so much dakka from so many different sources it makes the DS portion of the nid army tricky to pull off if the dice are even a little against you and their mech is still not easy to deal with. Nids are better at it now but not good if you are trying to build an all comers list that has to take into account more than mech.

The biggest issue with space wolves is if they run multiple priests. Their powers are rough especially JotWW on fexs and tervigons. Added onto this is the wolves are no joke in CC especially if you have to go after them in cover.

I am not saying they cannot be beat just from my testing so far the nids do not seem to exactly be on equal footing. That does not mean the codex is weak just my initial observations. It could just be that IG and SW are the toughest lists out there right now and I am playing against lists that have had more than a few weeks of tweaking. ;)

hendybadger
14-01-2010, 23:13
I wouldn't consider shelving my 3 carnifexs, 1 hive tyrant and 3 tyrant guard are a lot of arm chopping. Quite frankly they are not competitive.

To anyone who thinks they will see new types of lists coming up I seriously beg to differ. i bet if you look on the tacitca forum you will see the same list coming up time after time.

2 Warrior Prime
2/3 Hive Guard
2/3 Zoanthropes
Another unit of oen fot he above
2 or three units of termagants plus their attached tervigon
3 trygons

If you see someone using pyrovores or harpies please send my a PM

I will be using either 1 or 2 Harpies! And thats not being sarcastic

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 23:15
Over three games isn't likely to let you try everything out.

You have an army that can endure lots of weak dakka, or just take the fight straight to the enemy with infiltrate and deep strike.
Guard shouldn't be that big a problem, since your soft elements are as cheap as his, and you have units that grant your soft stuff feel no pain, can create more of them, or outflank them.

Rune priests fear death leaper, because he makes their job so much harder, and if the priests are that close to you, why don't you stomp them with your massive numbers?

I want to try tyranids, but there's such a small chance I can afford another army :(

Vepr
14-01-2010, 23:18
I will be using either 1 or 2 Harpies! And thats not being sarcastic

I was alright with Harpies until I saw they can only do their spore drop once per game.

hendybadger
14-01-2010, 23:21
What about the other 2 weapons they can fire every turn?

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 23:22
Or the fact that they're packing strength 9 blasts, with a long range, and are really mobile at the same time?

Vepr
14-01-2010, 23:26
Over three games isn't likely to let you try everything out.

You have an army that can endure lots of weak dakka, or just take the fight straight to the enemy with infiltrate and deep strike.
Guard shouldn't be that big a problem, since your soft elements are as cheap as his, and you have units that grant your soft stuff feel no pain, can create more of them, or outflank them.

Rune priests fear death leaper, because he makes their job so much harder, and if the priests are that close to you, why don't you stomp them with your massive numbers?

I want to try tyranids, but there's such a small chance I can afford another army :(

Yes but it always easier said than done when your opponent is actually fighting back and trying to make their own strategy work. ;)

IG brings a lot of pain the first turn with templates. DS'ing into them can be effective if things arrive as you want them to. If the rolls are against you things tend to get shot to pieces.

One Rune Priest fears the Death Leaper. The other or others do not. The problem for nids right now is that Shadow is 12" and JotWW is 24" not to mention the powers making terrain dangerous when we drop pod or tunnel in etc.

CapnBob
14-01-2010, 23:28
Then maybe they are not for you.

That's kind of insulting. 2nd edition rulebook list was for me, even before the codex was released. 2nd edition codex was for me. 3rd edition was for me. 4th edition was for me. 5th edition is an over-simplified swap out of the worst bits of 4th edition, coupled with an overzealous nerf bat.

I don't mind gun strength or range getting a nerf or points costs going up on carnifexes. I mind hormagaunts becoming scythegaunts, carnifexes having fewer options than ever and getting locked into the mini-fex stats from 4th edition, assault getting nerfed, the entire army getting a better than 1/3rd chance of being removed from your control out of synapse range, initiatives getting nerfed, survivability getting mostly nerfed and inconsistent fluff that contradicts ideas from the last 3 editions as well as itself.

Zoanthropes are better, possibly even overpowered, yes. Tyrants are getting back to the standing they should have, yes. Flesh hooks can be used as guns again, yes. Trygons are neat, yes. Boneswords are back, yes. There are overlapping buff effects that encourage you to mix units, yes. There are good things in the codex. It's just 3 steps backward for each one step forward.

Nids as they have been for the last 16+ years have been for me. 5th edition just isn't a worthy successor to that legacy. It's like having your Black Sabbath records replaced by Linkin Park, and then you're trying to tell me that metal isn't for me.

Vepr
14-01-2010, 23:28
What about the other 2 weapons they can fire every turn?

I don't have my laptop on me but aren't they BS3 and T5. They just did not seem as effective to me as a Mawloc.

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 23:30
Against gunlines, reserve everything that can't stand the heat, and move it in using the magic of outflank.

If your opponent reacts to this by bunching up, drop your blasts on him, while enduring his shots.

You even get a reserve-monster that causes a large template of destruction when it pops in.
The odds for beating silly foot armies are really on your side.

Zanzibarthefirst
14-01-2010, 23:36
I will be using either 1 or 2 Harpies! And thats not being sarcastic

well i wouldnt be surprised if you were one of the few.. I myself will be suing the parasite along with a unit of 5 warrrior strikes. Im also interested in building an Old One Eye for both the mmodelling experience and for using him in a game. However the point is in terms of competitive builds, all the codex has done is replace one with another

totgeboren
14-01-2010, 23:38
I got 6 home-made Zoats, and am I'm thinking about making casts of them and doing a proper Zoat army. I love the new codex, but then again, I don't own an army.
Ooooh, imagine a monsterous bio-mechanical centauroid mechasuit, with a huuuge autocannon , a big mecha-claw with a flamer and grenade launchers on its back. Count as Tyrannofex!

Standard Carnifex could be a similar suit but smaller and made fer close up fightin! Hmmm, im thinking a big Dread-like thing with a big gatlinggun, carrying it with both hands. Dakkafax? And I can pick up to three per heavy support? :D Bio-mecha Zoats doesn't sound too bad. :)

Damn, I got quite the project ahead of me. O_o

Heh, I even scratch-built a Doom of Malan'tai and painted it up really nice, just because I liked the idea of if, and I don't even play Nids as said. :)

WinglessVT2
14-01-2010, 23:39
That's the power books with options have over people.

RampagingRavener
14-01-2010, 23:58
I don't have my laptop on me but aren't they BS3 and T5. They just did not seem as effective to me as a Mawloc.

BS3, though its main weapon is twin-linked and uses either the small or large blast templates. The problem with the Harpy is not the accuracy or firepower - both of which are respectable, if not amazing. The problem is the godawful fragilty. Four T5 4+ save wounds will see it mown down in a turn or two. And it'll be next to impossible to claim cover; remember that it's supposed to be around the size of a Trygon, and on top of that, it flies. I honestly cannot think of a situation where a Harpy would ever, ever, be useful.

Vepr
14-01-2010, 23:59
Against gunlines, reserve everything that can't stand the heat, and move it in using the magic of outflank.

If your opponent reacts to this by bunching up, drop your blasts on him, while enduring his shots.

You even get a reserve-monster that causes a large template of destruction when it pops in.
The odds for beating silly foot armies are really on your side.

I am not worried about foot armies. I played a mostly ork foot army and it was rough on the orks especially the doom coming down in a pod.

Outflanking and DS'ing can be nasty and when it works it is great but I have found you have to be careful on your balance in this area. Because nids face the same issues as other DS heavy armies if you get some bad rolls and come in piece meal you get shot up badly if there are not multiple threats in the other players face.

I think nids are going to be fine. Some people seem to think the new nids are terrible and some seem to think they are full of win. I am somewhere in between that right now. I am not as excited about the new dex as I thought I would be but that does not mean I won't play it.

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 00:04
Don't they have pseudo-locator beacons on some units, like death leaper, lictors, and more, making their deep strikes about as effective as marines, plus bonus to reserve rolls from lots of units, too?

Bassline
15-01-2010, 00:06
Don't they have pseudo-locator beacons on some units, like death leaper, lictors, and more, making their deep strikes about as effective as marines, plus bonus to reserve rolls from lots of units, too?

yea nids can get 1+ roll on turn 2 and can re roll out flanking side

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 00:08
And they have infiltrating troops that kick ass at killing things up close, plus get to outflank a unit of their choice for every hive tyrant.

Those are some rather good odds for making a valid reserve army.

Vepr
15-01-2010, 00:09
Don't they have pseudo-locator beacons on some units, like death leaper, lictors, and more, making their deep strikes about as effective as marines, plus bonus to reserve rolls from lots of units, too?

Lictors have to be on the board at the start of the turn for the beacon and +1 to work so 3rd turn at the earliest. The Tyrant can also grants a +1 though.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-01-2010, 00:13
the problem i see with stealer shock is that it can be easily countered. If you have 2+reserve roll on 2+ you will virtually have everythign on the board while you opponent coudl have very little on the board, come on turn 3 or 4 and by that time the genestealers ahve lost the element of surprise

edit: Thanks Vepr for cleanignt hat up, I coudlnt remember if phermone trails worked even fi lictors are still in reserve like they did in the old codex

Steel Legion for Life
15-01-2010, 00:15
@Capn Bob - I think you're wrong about hormagaunts. I've never rated them before, but looking over the new book they look amazing with adrenaline and Toxin sacs (Poison and Furious charge).

A unit of 20 will do immense damage on the charge to 90% of units in the game: re-rolling wounds vs. T4 or less targets, and wounding everything else on 4+ means they can basically destroy anything with a T value on the charge. Put it this way - TMCs, Ork Boyz mobs and wraithlords have alot to fear from them.

Also, giving them furious charge means they can hurt most of the vehicles in the game - admittedly it's only glances, but better than they have been able to do before.

Murphey
15-01-2010, 00:33
From everything I've read about the new Tyranids, I personally detest them. At best a lateral shift in the power curve, where they honestly needed a bump to keep up in 5th. Pretty much every major issue not addressed, and made worse. Horrible lack of options. Many of them seeming like glaring oversights. Like Warriors, genestealers, and Hive Tyrants not having a frag grenade option.

Fragile MCs made more fragile, and twice as expensive. Whole sets of biomorph/weapon options removed.

It's a terrible codex from everything I've seen. Easily as bad as the 4th CSM codex.

Yes, it's got new, shiny models. And it's different and has that shine of novelty that many people are so attracted to. But I have no doubt in 6 months, when people finally see the deep flaws that many of us are pointing out, they're going to realize that the codex is that bad.

Happened with the CSM, it's happening again. I called it then, many people shot me down because of how 'shiny' some of the new options were, and many people love novelty.

Now, in hindsight, people hate that codex and the writer with it.

~Murphey

CapnBob
15-01-2010, 00:34
@Capn Bob - I think you're wrong about hormagaunts. I've never rated them before, but looking over the new book they look amazing with adrenaline and Toxin sacs (Poison and Furious charge).

A unit of 20 will do immense damage on the charge to 90% of units in the game: re-rolling wounds vs. T4 or less targets, and wounding everything else on 4+ means they can basically destroy anything with a T value on the charge. Put it this way - TMCs, Ork Boyz mobs and wraithlords have alot to fear from them.

Also, giving them furious charge means they can hurt most of the vehicles in the game - admittedly it's only glances, but better than they have been able to do before.

While those upgrades are nice, they just aren't hormagaunts anymore. Weapon skill dropped, and they got slower. That's a totally different role for them now, instead of the first wave to bog things down in combat with the ability to upgrade them into a more killy unit, they're gaunt meatshields with a more consistent running speed. Yeah, you can upgrade them to really nasty killy units, but they dropped the features that set them apart from termagants for the past 3 editions. The effectiveness of the codex does not concern me, it's the random changes that completely miss out on the conceptual role of the unit.

Edit: also, has nobody else noticed that Carnifexes are now subject to instinctive behavior for the first time? And with a lowered Ld value, you'll be losing control of them 45.5% of the time outside of synapse? Yeah, you can get lots more synapse now, but that's still a pretty major drawback that nobody seems to be commenting on yet.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-01-2010, 00:43
Hormagaunts ahve undoubtably improved but when it all depends on getting the charge. If a unit of 18 uber hormgaunts charge a unit of 30 Slugga boyz then the hormagaunts shoudl kill 22.5 Orks with the Orks killing 4.375 in reply. Not too shabby though if Ork boyz get the charge then they have problems.

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 00:44
If they boyz get the charge, the gaunts still strike before them.

Zanzibarthefirst
15-01-2010, 00:47
yeah but without furious charge their poisoned attacks dont get rerolled which makes a hell of a difference. When the Orks charge, the hormies shoudl only manage to kill about 12 assuming no casualites are taken from shooting, which is highly unlikely. A more realisitic figure is 7 or 8 dead Ork boyz and then a world of pain for the Hormies.

I've realised my calculations didnt take into account scything talons so on the charge 26.25 Orks are dead rather than 22.5

Murphey
15-01-2010, 00:47
Hormagaunts ahve undoubtably improved but when it all depends on getting the charge. If a unit of 18 uber hormgaunts charge a unit of 30 Slugga boyz then the hormagaunts shoudl kill 22.5 Orks with the Orks killing 4.375 in reply. Not too shabby though if Ork boyz get the charge then they have problems.

Unless of course that there is any piece of cover involved. Boyz can get grenades, and to my knowledge, hormies can't.

Lacking a solid frag-grenade option is the death knell of a CC army. On any high end play, people are too crafty to let that kind of weakness just slide.

~Murphey

WinglessVT2
15-01-2010, 00:52
It's not realistic to pretend you're going to hide your assault unit of 20-30 dudes in cover.

Boyz have weak initiative, so when they get the drop on something in cover, they strike last anyway, grenades be damned.

Both boyz and gaunts swamp you, so the ten marines holding the building get destroyed, anyway. They get their ten attacks in, kill a few, then they die.

RampagingRavener
15-01-2010, 01:55
Boyz can get grenades

I challenge you to find a single Ork player willing to spend points on upgrading Boyz to carry Stikkbomz who's been playing the game more than a few months. You think Tyranids have worthless upgrade options? Stikkbomz are even worse. The majority of things even remotely threatening would be striking first anyway - the only I3 or less units I can think of which might worry a Mob of Orks are Ogryns, Plague Marines, or Nurgle Daemons. Maybe Kroot as well, but I can't remember if they're I3 or I4.

Murphey
15-01-2010, 02:15
I challenge you to find a single Ork player willing to spend points on upgrading Boyz to carry Stikkbomz who's been playing the game more than a few months. You think Tyranids have worthless upgrade options? Stikkbomz are even worse. The majority of things even remotely threatening would be striking first anyway - the only I3 or less units I can think of which might worry a Mob of Orks are Ogryns, Plague Marines, or Nurgle Daemons. Maybe Kroot as well, but I can't remember if they're I3 or I4.

I actually know 2 players who put it on all of their boyz. One, my friend Jason, has been playing since early 4th ed. My friend Mike, who has been playing for about 2 years. Orks are both of their primary armies. Both play very competitive lists, and are good players.

Having frag grenades is the difference between going simultaneously with IG (which when dealing with Omega squads, is hugely important), going before fexs, simul with plague marines, nurgle demons, Sisters, Tau, etc.

When you've got a 5+ or 6+ save, not going last is huge. Also, with 5th ed's would allocation, going before powerfists is also huge, because even if hidden in a squad, throwing that many dice runs a nice chance that said powerfist will die before he even gets a chance to swing. Which helps out the orks combat resolution, removes a powerfist, etc.

So, once again, having frag grenades on a CC army is huge. Just being able to army ant a carnifex before it even gets a chance to attack is reason enough to have it.


It's not realistic to pretend you're going to hide your assault unit of 20-30 dudes in cover.

Boyz have weak initiative, so when they get the drop on something in cover, they strike last anyway, grenades be damned..

You don't need to hide an entire 30 man unit in cover. You simply need to make it so that one of the enemy models, which must try to move into b2b contact with one of your models, pass through diff/dan terrain. It's extremely easy to do.

As I pointed out above, it's the difference between going last, and going before/simul with near half the units in the game. That is beyond significant.

~Murphey

IJW
15-01-2010, 02:20
I have to say that that's the first time I've ever heard of Stikkbombz actually being taken.

Murphey
15-01-2010, 02:33
I have to say that that's the first time I've ever heard of Stikkbombz actually being taken.

They do quite well with it too, and every ork list I've built I put stickbombz on my boyz as well. I suppose if all someone ever plays against is marines, it would make them seem superfluous. But one of the main hobby stores my friends and I frequent has more demon players than SM players.

Actually, the last tournament there I went to, I saw 2 demon players, 3 necron players, yet no marines. (Other armies as well, but I'm just pointing out how common the rarer armies are there)

~Murphey

AlmightyNocturnus
15-01-2010, 02:37
Back to the original post...I like the new codex. I`ve decided to start an army myself because of it (I just swapped about 4000 points of Nids/IG with a friend and ordered some new models too).
It`s actually my second time to start a Nid army. I bought and assembled an entire Nid army when the 4th Ed Codex came out. I was excited about using so many Genestealers and Carnifexes so I (before it became the standard Nid list) made a Nidzilla list. I played two games and absolutely slaughtered two great veteran players without even really knowing what I was doing. I thought, "Wow! That sucks! It`s just a point-and-click army that anyone can win with. Lame" and I traded the entire army just like that. I thought Tyranids were the most disappointing army in 40K...for about 5 years.
But this new codex looks different. Without the point-and-click options, it will take some crafty tactics to make it work. As many have said, it will be necessary to think about the synergy of the army (like the Hive Mind itself). I`m looking forward to the challenge. And, since I`m big into the modelling and painting side of the hobby as well, I`m looking forward to creating some of the new bugs too. I hope to have everything painted up by the end of the 2010.

Almighty Nocturnus

DarkstarSabre
15-01-2010, 07:48
To be honest?

I can't see the problems with the new Codex. Sure, individual units have changed. They've become more expensive. Their roles have altered slightly. So yeah, if you try to build your army as a 4th edition Codex version it might not work out so well.

But as a whole? The army has several new dynamics to it. New deployment methods. Much more flexibility in what you can take, each thing filling a different role in its own way. You -can- go MC heavy. You -can- go swarm heavy. You -can- go stealer heavy. You -can- bring on a tide of the middleweights. It's not the black and white the previous codex was and for that I like it.

People will always scream that an army is either broken or overpowered, depending on what they play. I've had people here crying doom for Hive Tyrants and that the Swarmlord is grossly overpointed and worthless. Yet in the store today people were terrified of the thing and complaining it was disgustingly overpowered. You can't have it both ways. It's no longer about individual units, it's about the army as a whole.

And the army as a whole I -like-.

Eldrad
15-01-2010, 09:06
I think people comparing it to CSM are getting a bit ahead of themselves. Most people mad at CSM aren't mad because their army became underpowered, or because the units they had lost their effectiveness or some options but because the units they had were taken out of the book altogether. They were mad because they could no longer follow the fluff of their army while using that armies codex.

This is not so with the Nid dex. Want to play with 6 carnis like everyone was before? You still can! Do they have the same weapon upgrades as before? No but if your fluff was that you're playing a linebreaker force then nothing is stopping you from taking 6.

Were you playing stealer shock? You still can, arguably better this time with the HQ that gives you +1 to reserves and the Ymgarl ones that can appear out of any cover. O and broodlords are standard unit upgrades so can't be singles out anymore.

I'm not saying these are the most effective armies anymore, it will take 3 months before we start seeing whats worth taking and whats not and what works well with other units but from a fluff perspective Cruddance hasn't taken anything away from the Nid players insofar as army selection is concerned. And that alone means it is not as bad as Codex:CSM.

Scythe
15-01-2010, 09:12
While those upgrades are nice, they just aren't hormagaunts anymore. Weapon skill dropped, and they got slower. That's a totally different role for them now, instead of the first wave to bog things down in combat with the ability to upgrade them into a more killy unit, they're gaunt meatshields with a more consistent running speed. Yeah, you can upgrade them to really nasty killy units, but they dropped the features that set them apart from termagants for the past 3 editions. The effectiveness of the codex does not concern me, it's the random changes that completely miss out on the conceptual role of the unit.


Each their own. I never really liked the previous incantations of hormagaunts, because they fullfulled the same role as Gargoyles, only worse. Previously, we had 2 different roles for gaunts (fast assaulters, eg hormagaunts/gargoyles, and cheap throwaway, eg spinegaunts). Now we have more (Gargoyles as fast assaulters, Hormagaunts as slower massed assaulters, throwaway and scorers, termagants as cheap objective caputure units and throwaway, and devilgaunts as fire support). Yes, they fullfill a different role, but it is a more unique one this time around imho, and I like it. Reason enough to dust of the 90 hormagaunts I have lying around.

Vineas
15-01-2010, 09:20
Love it. Waiting on mine to get here so I can read it front to back and start scheming and plotting.

CapnBob
15-01-2010, 10:15
Each their own. I never really liked the previous incantations of hormagaunts, because they fullfulled the same role as Gargoyles, only worse. Previously, we had 2 different roles for gaunts (fast assaulters, eg hormagaunts/gargoyles, and cheap throwaway, eg spinegaunts). Now we have more (Gargoyles as fast assaulters, Hormagaunts as slower massed assaulters, throwaway and scorers, termagants as cheap objective caputure units and throwaway, and devilgaunts as fire support). Yes, they fullfill a different role, but it is a more unique one this time around imho, and I like it. Reason enough to dust of the 90 hormagaunts I have lying around.

Gargoyles aren't that much faster than the new scythegaunts since they lost fleet. I don't know what everyone else was doing wrong, hormagaunts always worked GREAT for me under the old rules.

Meh. This edition's a wash, and next edition they'll probably nerf all the stuff that just came out and re-buff the classic units. I'm not going to waste any money this time around.

viking657
15-01-2010, 10:25
I'm looking forward to listerning to my guardsmen scream as they get eaten alive.

I'm in the minority here but for me a new codex is always a good thing, I'll not be collecting nids anytime soon but I'm looking forward to the new challanges they will bring to the game with the new tricks they have.

Logarithm Udgaur
15-01-2010, 10:51
It's like having your Black Sabbath records replaced by Linkin Park, and then you're trying to tell me that metal isn't for me.
Hate to break it to you, but it sounds like metal is not for you either.

itcamefromthedeep
15-01-2010, 14:39
You -can- go MC heavy. You -can- go swarm heavy. You -can- go stealer heavy. You -can- bring on a tide of the middleweights. It's not the black and white the previous codex was and for that I like it.
You could do any of these in the 4e codex too. I did. In fact I had a great time bringing and winning with specialized lists.

The most fun I've had though is with the balanced armies. I've received plenty of comments from players who see me fielding armies that look the Tyranid armies should. I've played with lists that fit the classic background and I win with them.

I'll say it again: 6 Carnifexes makes for a sub-optimal 4e Tyranid army. If someone was fielding 6 Carnifexes, then they weren't a great list-builder or they were going easy on you. ;)

The 4e list was not one-dimensional. If you fought against one-dimensional lists in 4e, you'll fight one-dimesnsional lists in 5e. If you can't find an interesting 4e Tyranid list, then it's the player that's the problem.


I think people comparing it to CSM are getting a bit ahead of themselves. Most people mad at CSM aren't mad because their army became underpowered, or because the units they had lost their effectiveness or some options but because the units they had were taken out of the book altogether. They were mad because they could no longer follow the fluff of their army while using that armies codex.
That's a good point with regard to making armies with a strong background.

There were and still are plenty of complaints with regard to the loss of options, though. That was no small proportion of the problem people had.

The 3e Chaos marine models can mostly be used, with the exception of sonic weaponry I believe. The cult Terminators can be used as marked Terminators. I still lament the loss of the unit entries.

Tyranids lost the Sniperfex model, and that's it I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that there are more Sniperfexes than there ever were vehicles with sonic weaponry. I say that because I've never known all that many Emperor's Children lists. I've personally seen maybe 2 in my years of gaming. In fact I may have seen more Sniperfexes than I have Emperor's Children models.


I think the bare number of models that will need to be modified or shelved is comparable. I think that holds for any definition of "need".

---

The new models are really nice.

SPYDER68
15-01-2010, 14:45
The book isnt bad.. but its not good.

new units are fun, and i love the new models.

Rules have issues though..

Mawloc deepstrike ?
Nids cant use Scything talons and rending claws together ?
Tervigons got smacked with Ini 1 knowing wolves can remove them easily with jaws ?

So far this book seems to need more criticle things faq'd then the recent few.

I do enjoy them so far though, people will always be haters.

If people aren't crying that a codex is OP'd.. or that they hate the changes.. it just wouldnt be the interwebz.

Deathwing_Matt
15-01-2010, 15:02
new units are fun, and i love the new models.

Rules have issues though..



I got my copy of the new nid 'dex through the post on Monday, and I've spent most of the week scratching my head, trying to work out how the new list works. Its a far cry from previous incarnations of nids. For example, I was frustrated that whilst the smaller stuff is cheaper, the size of a swarm won't increase massively as the synapse creatures (which are needed to keep other stuff inline) are more expensive, carnifex nerf, etc...

However, I think I may have got to grips with it and cracked it now. There still is a lack of anti-tank, which means they could suffer in tournies, but against non-mech lists its pretty handy.

Things such as giving gaunts 4+ poisoned attacks mean that even your lowliest creatures can overwhelm daemon princes and wraithlords.

As for points costs and no-brainer units, there are certain ones. For example the pyrovore is very disappointing and Zoanthropes are awesome if you can get them close enough to vehicles. My carnifexes are getting shelved for apocolypse and 'points are for girls' games only. However, when it comes to hive tyrants, mine came to about 160pts in the previous codex, without as many upgrades...

There are 6 broad constructs I've found which could be good (at the least, fluffy): -

- Unit Spawn Army
- Deep Striking-nids popping up all over the place
- Flying themed army
- Swarm
- Neo-nidzilla (use of monstrous creatures requiring more use from medium-sized bugs such as hive guard)
- Stealer Shock


The disappointing thing about this (and getting rid of Nidzilla) from a fluff perspective is that it doesn't quite reflect the stages and waves of a nid invasion (although I'm sure this can be done somehow).

One downside is still some of the ambiguities, an FAQ will have to come out soon. For example, are the effects of reserve rules culmulative. If you took the swarmlord and the deathleaper, each of which give +1 to reserve rolls, would that mean deep striking and outflanking units would turn up on a 2+ in turn 2? This could arguably be better than drop pod assault, especially when Swarmlord allows you to re-roll the table side the unit outflanks on...

Overall, its taken all week, but it is growing on me, like capillary towers and spawning pools over a prey-planet...

azimaith
15-01-2010, 15:33
I think people comparing it to CSM are getting a bit ahead of themselves. Most people mad at CSM aren't mad because their army became underpowered, or because the units they had lost their effectiveness or some options but because the units they had were taken out of the book altogether. They were mad because they could no longer follow the fluff of their army while using that armies codex.

That's exactly the case with the tyranid codex and its more the fault of 5th ed than it is the codex since it requires you to have troops for scoring (which means they' can't necessarily be within shielding guys or charging into guys.)



This is not so with the Nid dex. Want to play with 6 carnis like everyone was before? You still can! Do they have the same weapon upgrades as before? No but if your fluff was that you're playing a linebreaker force then nothing is stopping you from taking 6.

Its just those 6 now cost an extra 450 before you add anything to them.



Were you playing stealer shock? You still can, arguably better this time with the HQ that gives you +1 to reserves and the Ymgarl ones that can appear out of any cover. O and broodlords are standard unit upgrades so can't be singles out anymore.

You're arguably better off with normal genestealers and leaving ymgarl ones at home. You can already infiltrate with them, why pay more and run the risk of getting them killed in terrain due to enemy models when you could just start the game up close or outflank. With broodlords leaving HQ you can't actually make an all stealer list, but thats hardly the big issue. Stealer shock will still eat meqs alive and be squished by av 14.



I'm not saying these are the most effective armies anymore, it will take 3 months before we start seeing whats worth taking and whats not and what works well with other units but from a fluff perspective Cruddance hasn't taken anything away from the Nid players insofar as army selection is concerned. And that alone means it is not as bad as Codex:CSM.
So if say, Khorne berserkers in the new codex were 2x the cost and thousand sons were similarly 2x the cost base, they wouldn't be an impediment to people being able to play them?

itcamefromthedeep
15-01-2010, 16:07
Its just those 6 now cost an extra 450 before you add anything to them.
Enough of this azimaith. You're cooking the books and it isn't helping. You know as well as any of us that you can't put a 4e Carnifex on the table for 85 points. You also know that you'd be daft to bring rending claws. The most basic Carnifex that you would ever see is just over 100 points (just).

---

That's roughly a 50% increase in price, for something like 350points across 6 models.

You can factor in the the new gubbinz that the Carnifex brings. That, combined with the new weaknesses will make the new Carnifex roughly equivalent to the old Ninjafex. That makes the increase in cost something on the order of just over 250 points across 6 models, for comparable damage output and durability. Ninjafexes were sub-optimal Carnifexes to begin with, and they didn't need to be reduced in power. Certainly not by that degree. If you think that Ninjafexes are problematic, I suggest that you talk to a local Tyranid player and allow him to bring 6 Ninjafexes in 2 broods and play another 250 points down and see how it goes.

azimaith. You don't need to be disingenuous with the numbers. You can make a good case for the gutting of the basic Carnifex by representing the changes honestly.

Skyros
15-01-2010, 16:27
Unless of course that there is any piece of cover involved. Boyz can get grenades, and to my knowledge, hormies can't.

Lacking a solid frag-grenade option is the death knell of a CC army. On any high end play, people are too crafty to let that kind of weakness just slide.

~Murphey

Lacking frag grenades is not the death knell of a CC army. Boyz don't take frag grenades because they'd be striking last anyway. And guess what? Orc CC is just fine.

azimaith
15-01-2010, 16:27
Enough of this azimaith. You're cooking the books and it isn't helping. You know as well as any of us that you can't put a 4e Carnifex on the table for 85 points. You also know that you'd be daft to bring rending claws. The most basic Carnifex that you would ever see is just over 100 points (just).

I can get a good CC fex for 114 points which is 45 points cheaper than a barebones new ones. Toxic Miasma, dual talons, WS Adrenals, flesh hooks
If I spend another 45 points I can make it 5 wounds, initiative 2, and a 2+ save. I'll take that over re-rolls to hit, 2 init only on the charge, and a point of BS I may or may not even use.



---

That's roughly a 50% increase in price, for something like 350points across 6 models.

You can factor in the the new gubbinz that the Carnifex brings. That, combined with the new weaknesses will make the new Carnifex roughly equivalent to the old Ninjafex. That makes the increase in cost something on the order of just over 250 points across 6 models, for comparable damage output and durability.

Considering even 114 point elite fex plus 46 points equals a basic carnifex every 3 carnifex I have gives me another 4 wounds on the current one. If I choose to make 160 point carnifex I get 2+ save 5 wound models which are *much* more durable than this editions.



Ninjafexes were sub-optimal Carnifexes to begin with, and they didn't need to be reduced in power. Certainly not by that degree. If you think that Ninjafexes are problematic, I suggest that you talk to a local Tyranid player and allow him to bring 6 Ninjafexes in 2 broods and play another 250 points down and see how it goes.

azimaith. You don't need to be disingenuous with the numbers. You can make a good case for the gutting of the basic Carnifex by representing the changes honestly.
Its not dishonest, its just what it is. Carnifex base cost is increased by some 75 points. I don't like buying models that come stacked with all sorts of gear, I'd rather buy the gear piece meal so I can get what I want out of it.

Even if you made the cheapest effective CC fex you're looking at 46 points per model, over 6 models that's 276 points extra I could be spending elsewhere.

In the tyranid army you need MC's, its an army with specialist units. When specialist units that you need cost more because you have to buy a bunch of stuff you may not even want its a problem for the whole army. This is the same dilemma with the necrons, you end up with units that cost to much so that the list becomes very clumsy in points values under 2k. Even if you had the best anti-tank in the whole game but it cost 500 points on its own, you'd still get stomped because of that in 1500 point games.

The optimum model has a low points value and little to no special gear but with many upgrade options you can choose from. The clumsiest and least efficient model is the model with the most special rules and high point value with or without other gear to choose from. I'd take a WS5 BS3 S5 I5 W4 T6 A3 3+ sv tyrant I for 75 points with the options to upgrade to WS8 BS4 S6 T6 I6 W4 A4 3+sv tyrant that re-rolls all misses in CC with psychic powers over one that comes that way for 170 points any day. I'd even take it over a 140 point tyrant with the same stats. One is very efficient and you only pay for what you take, the other is bloated and fat entailing a lot of waste and rules you may never even use.

Skyros
15-01-2010, 16:33
Meh. This edition's a wash, and next edition they'll probably nerf all the stuff that just came out and re-buff the classic units. I'm not going to waste any money this time around.

I think you may be a pessimist ;)

But by all means, if you feel the new units aren't worth it, just make lists with your existing models and don't buy whole new batches. I've done that before.

Also, note that people will much sooner grasp what they have lost, than what they have gained, with a new codex. It is easy to tell what old tactics won't work anymore - but with all the various potential interactions between different tyrranid units it is not as immediately obvious as to what new interactions open up.

Also also, people are innately attuned to be more upset over a loss than they are to be satisfied over a gain. I dare say if an existing unit was nerfed by 10% and some other unit buffed by 10% people wouldn't count it as a wash they'd complain why their existing model was nerfed, etc.

itcamefromthedeep
15-01-2010, 16:39
Its not dishonest, its just what it is. Carnifex base cost is increased by some 75 points.
This part, and primarily this part, is what's hurting your argument. Everyone who has seen the 4e Tyranid codex knows that the "base cost" of a Carnifex is a dirty, dirty lie. It has nothing to do with the final cost of the Carnifex.

If you took 60 points off of that 85 and then added 30 points to the cost of each weapon (leaving total prices unchanged), you could say that basic Carnifexes are now over six times as expensive! It would be just as disingenuous. Do you understand now why the basic cost in the 4e codex is meaningless?

The minimum price for a 4e Carnifex is just over 100 points (so long as you have a brain in your head). If you want to talk about a "base cost", use that number.

azimaith
15-01-2010, 16:47
This part, and primarily this part, is what's hurting your argument. Everyone who has seen the 4e Tyranid codex knows that the "base cost" of a Carnifex is a dirty, dirty lie. It has nothing to do with the final cost of the Carnifex.

You're missing the point here. The base cost isn't about how much a carnifex puts you in the hole no matter *what* you put on it. If I have a carnifex with two talons its some 101 points, if I have a sniperfex with two guns and senses its some 150 points. However, the base cost is 85 points because the carnifex is butt naked. The 5th ed carnifex is always 75 points more expensive base, if I put guns on it the base cost is still 75 more+gun costs.
How much your carnifex is going to cost is going to depend entirely on what you arm it with and how you equip it thus its not really very helpful to compare them outside their base form because then it changes the comparison. Comparing a basic 5th carnifex to a carnifex with every single upgrade in 4th ed would produce a more expensive 4th ed carnifex but the base costs will remain identical no matter what.



If you took 60 points off of that 85 and then added 30 points to the cost of each weapon, then you could say that basic Carnifexes are now over six times as expensive! It would be just as disingenuous. Do you understand now why the basic cost in the 4e codex is meaningless?

The minimum price for a 4e Carnifex is just over 100 points (so long as you have a brain in your head). If you want to talk about a "base cost", use that number.

The minimum cost to field a carnifex and the base cost of the carnifex are two different things. People already have the 4th ed tyranid codex and they know how much things cost, not everyone has the 5th ed codex thus they need a comparison between base costs. The fact that a 5th ed carni comes with talons and the like doesn't change its base cost and doesn't somehow negate that is the minimum you will pay for said unit.

TheRaven
15-01-2010, 17:07
I was thinking about starting up Tyranids when this new book came out, but after hearing alot of the comments it caused me to pause. I dont' think it's as bad as most people are saying, however, I'm still concerned about one thing:

What do we do against HEAVY mech armies?

I mean what do I do if I look across and see more Lemun Russ's than I can shake a scythe talon at? I know zoanthropes are amazing now but they are so short ranged and squishy that the first thing any armor column is going to do is poor everythign they have into them. So then what? Maybe there is somthing I'm missing? Do I just keep removing models for the next 6 turns?

Hopefully in the next few months people find some solutions, carnifex's were good at taking out vehicles, maybe too good in general but they were an important part of our balance and I love the models. Maybe GW wants us to to take 3 of the new shinny tyragon boxes and expects us to deepstrike and CC tanks all the time. IDK.

itcamefromthedeep
15-01-2010, 17:14
GOOD PEOPLE OF THE INTERNET, SKIP DOWN TO THE CAPS.

You're missing the point here.
I agree with your point, you nitwit! That's why I haven't been arguing it. Have you been asleep these past three months!?! At every turn I've been saying that the new Carnifex is overpriced by something on the order of 50-60 points, and I've been vocal about it. The new naked Carnifex fights like a close combat Wraithlord for the price of a Great Unclean One. A Great Unclean One it ain't.


The minimum cost to field a carnifex and the base cost of the carnifex are two different things.
Yes, and you should be talking about the minimum cost, because the base cost means diddly-squat. Nothing. Ignore it. The rest of us do.

By citing the "base cost" instead of the minimum you've been throwing up some shockingly transparent smoke and mirrors and it makes you look like a jerk. It's insulting the intelligence of even the people of the internet to hear you talk as if we have no idea about how to add.

Quit it.

---

NOW, THE GOOD NEWS

The new models are nice.

They've included Assault Spawn in the Tyranid army book. The Tyrannofex is just an Exocrine in by a different name. I don't know why they didn't just go with the classic nomenclature. The Tervigon could be mistaken for a Haruspex if you squint really hard and pretend that birthing Termagants is the same thing as a transport capacity. In theory, though, I can get behind these concepts. I can hope that the 6e codex just brings back the old names for them. It's a baby-step in the right direction.

They've put the Harpy in the book, and this give me hope that some clever modeler will see it for what it is: a Tyranid dragon. Take all the spectacular Dragon art of the past half-century and then make it a Tyranid, and that's a creature concept that I find exciting. Somehow Forge World messed it up with the Harridan, and that's a shame. I can hope for better for the Harpy. I'll ignore the picture in the codex for now and just imagine a dragon.

Tyranids still fit my playstyle. I can walk across the table using firepower to whittle down the enemy force and then smash the rest with close combat troops, using Genestealers' outflanking ability for board control. The new book means that I'll be mostly be ignoring different units, and ignoring them harder then I ignored the bad stuff in the previous codex, but I can still play Tyranids largely the way I want to. They may even be more effective, because I'm using specialist medium bugs instead of fragile Carnifexes that aren't particularly good at anything.

So, there's some good news.

Thoume
15-01-2010, 17:25
They've put the Harpy in the book, and this give me hope that some clever modeler will see it for what it is: a Tyranid dragon

Might be taking the concept too literally, but a high elf dragon base with carnifex / trygon bits over it... we could be on to a winner :D

MoonReaper
16-01-2010, 12:05
Back to the original post...I like the new codex. I`ve decided to start an army myself because of it (I just swapped about 4000 points of Nids/IG with a friend and ordered some new models too).
It`s actually my second time to start a Nid army. I bought and assembled an entire Nid army when the 4th Ed Codex came out. I was excited about using so many Genestealers and Carnifexes so I (before it became the standard Nid list) made a Nidzilla list. I played two games and absolutely slaughtered two great veteran players without even really knowing what I was doing. I thought, "Wow! That sucks! It`s just a point-and-click army that anyone can win with. Lame" and I traded the entire army just like that. I thought Tyranids were the most disappointing army in 40K...for about 5 years.
But this new codex looks different. Without the point-and-click options, it will take some crafty tactics to make it work. As many have said, it will be necessary to think about the synergy of the army (like the Hive Mind itself). I`m looking forward to the challenge. And, since I`m big into the modelling and painting side of the hobby as well, I`m looking forward to creating some of the new bugs too. I hope to have everything painted up by the end of the 2010.

Almighty Nocturnus

T H I S

Spot on mate

I play Necrons for a reason. People spat on their supposedly weak army list yet if played right and thoughtfully, they are impressive and greatly rewarding.

I wouldnt care for an army that is point and click either. I hated Necrons pre-5th ed.
The new Tyranids I have faith (I havent used them yet) that would be amazing with thought and tactile guidance behind them. Reading the codex certainly seems like the options support this style of game.

I seriously doubt Tyranids 5th have fewer playstyles than Necrons in th ed and I doubt they would be less efficient either. So yes Im excited!

Time will tell
But my prediction is that Tyranids will be competitive

LonelyPath
16-01-2010, 13:06
I do really like the codex, while it's true that Carnifexes are not as much of a viable choice they once were, I nere realy used them that much so that doesn't bother me. Some of the rules are far from perfect and there's alot of confusion over a few things here and there, but as a whole my army of choice (Stealer Shock) stll works well, if not better with all my basic troops having Infiltrate.

Backed up with a couple of trygons or a trygon and mawloc and my Stealers work almost to well to me.

I will dtill be buying a couple of other things to add later and try out different roster types, but for the time being I'm glad my Stealers still work. Also, I've got ideas for Tyranid Prime conversions that I want to try out, basing them on even larger versions of the Broodlord.

Oh, and no doubt my collection will feature a Tyrannofex at some point in the near future (which has taken higher precidence over adding more Raveners).

Cartographer
16-01-2010, 13:54
Having read the codex now I can honestly say, there is no palce for the Carnfex in any list I build. It is sub-par in any role I could field it in, eclipsed by Trygons, Mawlocks and Tyrannofexes.
Similarly, Pyrovores, Venomthropes, Lictors and Harpies just don't bring enough for their slot IMO compared to everything else.

I can really get enthusiastic about a lot of the rest and I'm looking forward to building a scary list with loads of synergy, maximising offensive output (minus the 'fexes). Unfortunately, there are a lot of pretty naff upgrades in the list that I can't see any real use for, included more for the sake of saying "well, we gave you the option..." rather than any real need on the part of the army.

O&G'sRule
16-01-2010, 14:09
I can't believe the new rules make the hierophant bio titan even harder. It was already almost unuseable due to it being ridiculously hard, now you fight it at initiative 1 and it has 3+ invulnerable save due to rules changes to lash whips and warp field. Oh well I guess mine will be collecting a little more dust then

LonelyPath
16-01-2010, 14:45
I thught with it being made even tougher to kill it'd give even more reason to field your Heirophant, lol. It can still be taken down though, massed Psycannons can make pretty short work of it ;)

O&G'sRule
16-01-2010, 22:19
I thught with it being made even tougher to kill it'd give even more reason to field your Heirophant, lol. It can still be taken down though, massed Psycannons can make pretty short work of it ;)

Not if you use it right they don't, especially with a trygon or 2 as bodyguard, add a couple of stategems that block line of sight to it and by turn 2 you should have killed all real threats, then kill the rest of the army.
I don't like using stuff that makes games very one sided, Its fun 1 or 2 times, but its no fun if both sides aren't enjoying themselves

itcamefromthedeep
16-01-2010, 22:29
Not if you use it right they don't, especially with a trygon or 2 as bodyguard, add a couple of stategems that block line of sight to it and by turn 2 you should have killed all real threats, then kill the rest of the army.
I don't like using stuff that makes games very one sided, Its fun 1 or 2 times, but its no fun if both sides aren't enjoying themselves
You should note the sarcasm smiley. He knows as well as the rest of us that Psycannons don't break the 2+ armor save on the profile of the Hierophant.

Inso
16-01-2010, 22:42
I always like reading threads like this because I think a lot of people get so tied up thinking of how powerful the troops are (or not) and they forget that it's not what you've got, it's how you use it that counts.

If you want a 'nid-zilla army use it, if you want a 'stealer horde use it...why should a few changes to the stats/special rules make you want to ditch your favourite troops when all you need to do is adapt your tactics?

The beauty of Carnifex is that you can now get three for one choice. They may be a bit less dramatic than a Tyrannofex or a Trygon but they give you different tactical options.

I quite like all the new stuff in the book but I will always stick with what I like rather than just pick things that are super powerful just to win battles.

Let's face it, a pistol is a dangerous weapon...but if you don't know how to take the safety off it isn't very effective...and a toothpick can kill if it is in the right hands ;).

My favourite army choices for the 'nids would be:

Warriors with Alphas as HQ
Gaunts (lots of both types)
Gargoyles with Shrikes for support
Rippers
Carnifex

Out of the new stuff I quite like the Tervigon...but that's about it (from my 'army collecting' point of view...the new models are nice ;) ).

My favourite phrase is 'the list is broken'... :D ...brilliant ;) .

Vineas
18-01-2010, 02:52
I'm loving me my genestealers. I paid 28pts in the old codex, had talons for +1 attack, scuttle for outflank or pregame move, improved save, preferred enemy, grenades.

Now I lost an attack, gained ability to wound on 4+ always rerolling failed wounds against T4 or less, talons let me reroll 1's, BL is a squad upgrade and now doesn't keep the stealers from fleeting or infiltrating and can lock down power-weapon type doodads, I gained toxin sacs and the pts cost is around 6 or 7pts cheaper PER stealer (too lazy to open my leaked copy but I know it's in that ballpark). I never took toxin in the old codex as the S5 was so very unnecessary most of the time.

With the exception of charging orks I don't see the big issue with going at I1 with stealers? Against 10 marines he gets 11 attacks (assuming sarge has pw and not a fist and he can be locked down a large percentage of the time if you don't want him swinging) so that is 8 attacks if sarge doesn't hit...4 hits, 2 wounds; 2 dead stealers.

Hitting with 7 Stealers + BL, that is 26 attacks, 17 hits, 8 wounds, 4.92 dead marines. Stealers win by 3. 10 stealers with nothing plus BL is 186pts. Give the stealers sacs and talons for another 40pts and BL talons and sacs for 4 pts and that will up your hits to 19, wounds goes up to 14.25 resulting in 8 dead marines.

If the marines hold than you are locked his turn, you finish him off on his turn and maybe have something to assault that isn't in cover. Even the 186pt naked brood of 9+BL you are forcing morale at -3. If he decides to attempt combat tactics you are I6, he is I4. Good chance to catch him forcing 2 no-retreat saves. Yeah he could fail both and leave your balls flapping in the wind to be shot during his turn but the massacre SHOULD let you spread out in the cover you had to assault into.

To those complaining about Ymgarl having I1 assalting through cover, that's easy. If you aren't assaulting things that will wound you on 2's even with T5 (like SM fists and hammers) bump your T to 5. Marines of the non-fist variety need 5's to wound. IG of the non-fist variety need 6's to wound. Even going last against IG guess what squad SHOULD win the combat? 10 IG will MAYBE kill 1 stealer, the other 8 and BL would own them. Hell, the BL alone would kill off the squad for around the same cost (if he was to assault them all alone with no stealer support).

itcamefromthedeep
18-01-2010, 03:44
I'm loving me my genestealers. I paid 28pts in the old codex, had talons for +1 attack, scuttle for outflank or pregame move, improved save, preferred enemy, grenades.
I hope that you mean that you took preferred enemy OR grenades on those Genestealers. Otherwise you'd be cheating in several ways. You wouldn't do that Vineas, but it's best to be clear.

While I'm thinking of it, Ymgarl Genestealers aren't allowed to bring talons. That would appear to make some of your Genestealers dirty, dirty liars. Not WYSIWYG at all. Hmmmn, I hope your gaming group is understanding Vineas.

It'll be a pain to explain to people that you don't get the scything talons re-roll despite the model. Proxy rules and all. Man... that sucks.

azimaith
18-01-2010, 05:26
You could green stuff them to be tentacles.

wyvirn
18-01-2010, 05:33
I have to say, the new dex is certainly 'different' than the 2 previous editions, more akin to the black rule book of 3rd. I was suspicious of it at first because of it, but I'm beginning to warm up to it, especially the Doom of Malan'tia. 130 Points for 2+ 6'' waves of death? yes plz

Vineas
18-01-2010, 05:54
Yeah, my bad. PE and no grenades so loss of grenades doesn't hurt as I didn't run them.

I also said these were normal. I know Ymgarl don't get talons but I'm comparing them to normal stealers.

Old price was 28pts and the BL actually slowed them down since the brood couldn't fleet. New cost is 20-22 I believe, BL cannot be picked out in assault and he can increase my chances of wiping a non-ATSKNF squad (or make it take another armor save) or lock down pesky fists and power weapons to soften the attacks back against the stealers).

Scythe
18-01-2010, 07:01
While I'm thinking of it, Ymgarl Genestealers aren't allowed to bring talons. That would appear to make some of your Genestealers dirty, dirty liars. Not WYSIWYG at all. Hmmmn, I hope your gaming group is understanding Vineas.

Talons are a bit tricky in the new dex. The Mawloc doesn't have them, despite the model obviously having 3 sets (smaller than the Trygons, but a scything talon is a scything talon). The Trygon and Raveners are also listed as having double sets of talons, while the models have 3 sets (no rules exist for 3 sets, but still). I can only conclude that talons could just be as well represent claws and teeth (normal close combat weapons) then...

Zazoo
18-01-2010, 10:06
From everything I've read about the new Tyranids, I personally detest them. At best a lateral shift in the power curve, where they honestly needed a bump to keep up in 5th. Pretty much every major issue not addressed, and made worse. Horrible lack of options. Many of them seeming like glaring oversights. Like Warriors, genestealers, and Hive Tyrants not having a frag grenade option.

Fragile MCs made more fragile, and twice as expensive. Whole sets of biomorph/weapon options removed.

It's a terrible codex from everything I've seen. Easily as bad as the 4th CSM codex.

Yes, it's got new, shiny models. And it's different and has that shine of novelty that many people are so attracted to. But I have no doubt in 6 months, when people finally see the deep flaws that many of us are pointing out, they're going to realize that the codex is that bad.

Happened with the CSM, it's happening again. I called it then, many people shot me down because of how 'shiny' some of the new options were, and many people love novelty.

Now, in hindsight, people hate that codex and the writer with it.

~Murphey

I agree with the above completely and considering ive been playing for 17 odd years and my 2 main armies are Chaos and Nids I am REALLY REALLY annoyed.

Darkmatyr
18-01-2010, 13:36
I don't know but I've found that you find more people off the forum loving the new codex than on. Maybe forums just attract whingers (though not always the case as this thread shows :))?

For me the codex is great, I don't have the money "yet" for the new bugs but I will be investing heavily very soon. Tervigons and Trygons have me dying to make nasty bug armies, and converting my scything talons on warriors, currently being lazy and just spinning them around till I bother trying plasticard for the swords, is good fun. Gotta love the duel wield boneswords :D. Genestealers are so damn amazing in the new dex, able to get a first turn charge if you can infiltrate them close enough :D.

itcamefromthedeep
18-01-2010, 13:36
Talons are a bit tricky in the new dex. The Mawloc doesn't have them, despite the model obviously having 3 sets (smaller than the Trygons, but a scything talon is a scything talon). The Trygon and Raveners are also listed as having double sets of talons, while the models have 3 sets (no rules exist for 3 sets, but still). I can only conclude that talons could just be as well represent claws and teeth (normal close combat weapons) then...
Point well taken. Talons are often confusing, but that just means that you'll want to explain to your opponent that the Mawloc doesn't actually bring double talons ('cause hey, it caught me off guard).

In the case of Ymgarls, the talons on them look exactly like the talons on a normal Genestealer. It's worth mentioning that they won't be doing the same thing, despite looking identical.

---

You could convert the talons into tentacles, but that's not much better than replacing the arms completely unless you tossed out or used the other arms somewhere. Converting models that you thought were finished is the pits.

Happily I only have one Sniperfex to break. A quick search of the bitz-boxed tells me I've left enough MC devourers to make 5 more Carnifexes into Devilfexes. That'll bring me to 6. That should be enough for this edition.

Rick Blaine
18-01-2010, 15:59
I wonder how many of the people who are complaining now will be doing the same thing in 5 years, outraged about how 6e makes their fluffy Tervigons and Hive Guard useless just because GW want to sell the new plastic Hive Tyrant and Lictors. :P

Bassline
18-01-2010, 16:58
Love the new dex plus think found perfect for a harpy!!!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1360000&prodId=prod480006a

thorw on some cannons on the front of the chest and done! :D

Scythe
19-01-2010, 06:49
Point well taken. Talons are often confusing, but that just means that you'll want to explain to your opponent that the Mawloc doesn't actually bring double talons ('cause hey, it caught me off guard).

In the case of Ymgarls, the talons on them look exactly like the talons on a normal Genestealer. It's worth mentioning that they won't be doing the same thing, despite looking identical.

---

You could convert the talons into tentacles, but that's not much better than replacing the arms completely unless you tossed out or used the other arms somewhere. Converting models that you thought were finished is the pits.


Mah, I will just keep my 6 genestealers with feeder tendrils, caparace and talons as Ymgarl stealers. They look different enough from normal genestealers to easliy tell them apart (I don't own any other genestealers with scything talons), and the codex entry doesn't gives them the option for scything talons, so little room for confusion.

Lusall
19-01-2010, 06:56
I don't hate the new dex...I actually really love it. I think the rules are solid. Yes, there's plenty of room for people to "abuse" the new shiney toys. We have to expect that. There will always be that sort of thing happening.

It's the fluff...I think it was just poorly written. Not thought out. No respect given to the past fluff. Say what you will...that's just my opinion.

Beyond that...I can live with it.

Vineas
19-01-2010, 06:59
I hate it because GW sent it US 3rd class mail (guess that's what free shipping gets you). Pre-ordered it and now it wont get here till tomorrow.

Could have ordered it from The Warstore for 20% cheaper, paid $6 shipping; saved money and gotten it about the same time.

Ah well, it still leaves me 10 days to figure out a list (and I more or less know what I have just need to paint and assemble it).