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Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 05:06
Do you guys believe that the two chaos dexes will get a proper 5th ed treatment before 6th edition or not because right now chaos legions codexes look highly unlikely.

Chem-Dog
15-01-2010, 05:18
Define "proper 5th ed treatment"
Because as far as I was aware both books are very 5th edition.

Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 05:24
Technically they were released before 5th ed, daemons are indeed designed with 5th ed in mind but both codices are subpar and lacking in various areas especially when compared with more recent codices and that's clearly established from the myriad debates since the codices releases.

Vaktathi
15-01-2010, 05:30
Daemons are actually the first 5E book. Although they were released under 4th, it was what, 7 weeks before 5th came out, and many of their rules (like "defensive grenades") only made sense in the context of 5E. There's really no way one can say they were designed at all with 4th edition in mind.

CSM's are...sorta there, although they were released in IIRC sept 07, and full leaks of the codex were out in July, so the rules were probably done april/may at the latest I imagine, meaning the 5E rules were still in an early development stage, with Eldar probably being the first in mind with any of the major 5E changes intended but not solidified.

Thud
15-01-2010, 05:46
I doubt either will see a new codex before 6th, too many others ahead of them in the queue.

However, it would depend on how far away 6th edition is. Personally I'm quite happy with 5th and wouldn't mind if it remained in play for years to come.

Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 05:54
Goddamit Vaktathi don't crush my hopes :P. Jokes aside i believe you are right though at least i hope they update the csm codex or a make some legions hopefully.

AFnord
15-01-2010, 05:59
A new chaos daemon codex sounds very unlikely, it's not one of the top armies, and their book was, as Vaktahi pointed out, really a 5th edition codex. A new chaos marine codex on the other hand does not sound too unlikely, although I don't think that it will see a release until the end of 5th editions life span.

Arvendragon
15-01-2010, 06:05
How about Dark Angels, Eldar and Orks?

I can almost say for sure Orks won't get anything.

CrownAxe
15-01-2010, 06:06
Daemons are 5th

CSM maybe, there is plenty of time until then

Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 06:40
Orks are also considered 5th and they have a very powerful codex, dark angels on the other hand...
Plus i'm ceratain that eldar will be updated before 6th.

Mecha King Ghidorah
15-01-2010, 06:44
I think once armies that need a update like Necrons and Dark Eldar we could see a Chaos Legions book or something doubt Daemons will get updated though since they are pretty much made for 5th edition.

druchii
15-01-2010, 07:02
Do you guys believe that the two chaos dexes will get a proper 5th ed treatment before 6th edition or not because right now chaos legions codexes look highly unlikely.

Why would they?

Both books are completely viable within the currenth 5th ed. atmosphere, and allow players to take multiple varities of competitive lists.

If anything they'll be in line after such things as Dark Eldar, Eldar, Inquisition, Necrons, etc.

d

marv335
15-01-2010, 07:15
I can't see it happening.
We might see a legions codex, but that's not going to be in the near future.
There are far more codecies that need an update far more than those two.
Necrons, Dark Eldar, Tau Empire, Inquisition, Dark Angels, Black Templars, to name a few.
That's six codecies, or roughly 2 years worth of releases.

the1stpip
15-01-2010, 08:02
Daemons are not likely to get a new codex for some time yet. It has only been out for two years.

However, Chaos are very much in need of a new codex. While it is a very capable codex in one sense, if you want to win, there are certain units you must take.

marv335
15-01-2010, 09:59
the same could be said for any codex.

Agnar the Howler
15-01-2010, 10:41
I don't really believe CSM need a new codex right now... whilst one that is actually tuned for the next edition would be great, it isn't completely necessary at this point in time. Tau need a codex more than Chaos, and a good few others more than Tau, if both of them get a good 6th edition tuned codex then i'm happy, but right now they can hold their own pretty well (Chaos moreso than Tau, but Tau are fully capable of putting up a fight) and Codex slots should be given to the ones who are really starting to fall to the newer codices like the Inquisition ones and DEldar (although lance spam isn't THAT bad... :p)

9Niels
15-01-2010, 11:26
The Daemons won't need a new codex. The codex works fine with 5th!

Lord Solar Plexus
15-01-2010, 11:36
6th edition?!? Please, not. I'm happy with things as they are, so please let that be several years in the future.

Daemons of course need some transports to be playable in 5th. :)

Reaver83
15-01-2010, 14:02
I think that the Daemon book is unlikely to be redone for a good 4 years, working on the fact there's like 15 dex's. I think we could see CSM's in a couple of years, they're popular, and it'll be 4 years old by then iirc, so about time to replace.

Whitehorn
15-01-2010, 14:12
I play them both, but I would have to say it's very unlikely. There's a dozen books to do before they get an update and I'd much rather see the traitor legions addressed individually.

oCoYoRoAoKo
15-01-2010, 14:16
Daemons dont need a new book. they were done with 5th in mind and when played correctly can be very competative. For example, at the most recent 40kgt heat 2 there were a number of daemon players in the top 40 despite the proliferation of mech armies (i myself came in the mid 20s with my 'all-nurgle-and-some-fiends-of-slaanesh' list).

Chaos marines on the other hand are showing their age but very slightly. Other books are in more need of an update (Necrons, Dark Eldar especially) so should be given priority.

Cy.

Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 14:56
It's my mistake that i didn't clarified some things in my first post so here goes.
I do believe that if they get a new codex it should be well after DE, necrons, inquisition, tau, BT.
With that out of the way csm can win some battles no doubt but only with a certain build and i mean competative battles and that's lame, for those of you that are not competitively minded, before you use the usual arguement i want to say that even in friendly games the options are fairly limited and one dimensonal when we compare it with the wealth of choices that the new codices have like ig, marines and sw and that goes for both dexes.

For those of you that claim daemons are competitive i must say that i play with them since the codex release, i have tried myriads of builds the most powerful of which is the daemonzilla but they certainly are not a competitive tournament viable army no matter how good a player you are and that is because they have some big design flaws like daemonic assault, lack of AV capability and general randomness.
That's why these 2 dexes need an update and i also agree that this edition is very good and we should stick with it for a few more years but lot's of things point to 2012 summer release i hope they are wrong personally.

Reaver83
15-01-2010, 15:02
Strange I've been in two local tournaments (30 odd players each) my daemons won one, and came top 5 in the other.

Yes they're not easy to play with but it's very possible to beat mech, you just need a bit more skill, make sure you can dictate the game take the initiative etc.

blake
15-01-2010, 15:08
For those of you that claim daemons are competitive i must say that i play with them since the codex release, i have tried myriads of builds the most powerful of which is the daemonzilla but they certainly are not a competitive tournament viable army no matter how good a player you are and that is because they have some big design flaws like daemonic assault, lack of AV capability and general randomness.


Then i am going to have to call into question your skills at playing Demons, because I know a guy who plays them here who won at least 4 tourny's in a row before he finally got beat by a all mech IG list, and in the rematch he won. Chaos Space Marine's are a little boring but still a very popular and competitive army...the only downside is they only have 1 maybe 2 builds that worry people and its getting to the point where almost all the newer dex's have some form of Psychic nullification, so some of the CSM codex tricks don't work as well as they used to.

All in all i think both dex's are fine, CSM might be a little boring but it works. Chaos Legions might be 2-3 years off but i honestly do not see a rewrite of the Demon's codex anywhere near the horizon.

primarch16
15-01-2010, 15:28
I'd be happy if they just released that damn plastic daemon prince. Seriously GW it WILL sell!

Either way no I dont think Daemons or Chaos are going to be getting a new codex any time in the next few years. New models yep, but no codex.

Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 15:33
You may question my ability to play but i question the environment you play in.
In my environment nearly everyone is a competitive tournament player so their lists are the as good as they can make them. Furthermore i don't say that i never win, that's not my problem i have my fair share of victories, what bothers me is the randomness of the army and if you think that csm are boring daemons are just sad because the more random elements and aspects your army has the worst the overall experience is in most games.

As for tournaments the only time the daemons got 1st place in a big tourney is when the codex was first released and people didn't know exactly how the army played yet thus they were a bit surprised and the daemons player brought the entire second wave of his army in round 2 without rolling for reserves....

So both dexes are many things but not fine...

oCoYoRoAoKo
15-01-2010, 16:19
You may question my ability to play but i question the environment you play in.
In my environment nearly everyone is a competitive tournament player so their lists are the as good as they can make them. Furthermore i don't say that i never win, that's not my problem i have my fair share of victories, what bothers me is the randomness of the army and if you think that csm are boring daemons are just sad because the more random elements and aspects your army has the worst the overall experience is in most games.

As for tournaments the only time the daemons got 1st place in a big tourney is when the codex was first released and people didn't know exactly how the army played yet thus they were a bit surprised and the daemons player brought the entire second wave of his army in round 2 without rolling for reserves....

So both dexes are many things but not fine...

Like i said, the higher ranking daemon players in the GT would disaggree with you. The weeknesses of the daemon army can be overcome by proper list building, good use of icons, etc. you will get the correct wave 2/3 of the time, but this should not matter as long as the list is balenced with redundancy.

During my games at the Gt i beat Horde Orks, Mech Deathguard, and Mech Spacewolves. Drew to Double Lash Chaos, and Triple Exorcist sisters. And lost to Jetbike Seercouncil (but even then only because my GUO decided that he didnt want to kill a wraithlord). Granted none of the games were easy but who really wants to steamroll your opponent every time without a callenge?

Cy.

Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 16:27
No no you misunderstood i love a good challenge that's why i keep playing daemons :) can you plz post your list?

BladeWalker
15-01-2010, 16:27
I would guess that CSM will see a new book toward the end of the 5th Edition cycle (after all the older books) while Daemons will see a new book only after 6th Edition is released.

oCoYoRoAoKo
15-01-2010, 16:35
No no you misunderstood i love a good challenge that's why i keep playing daemons :) can you plz post your list?

Sure:

2x GUO, cloud of flies
2x 10 Plague Bearers, Icons
1x 11 Plague Bearers
1x 6 Fiends of Slaanesh, Unholy Might
3x Nurgle DPs, flies, Nox Touch

Pretty much your standard daemonzilla fare but with a nurgle twist. 3 Soul grinders would be more effective in Heavy support i know, but i prefer the DPs. The army was designed to be very good at objectives (plague bearers) whilst winning out in KPs in a war of attrition.

BTW, the army is in my sig.

Cy.

Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 16:42
Thanks for posting i'll check it out, i prefer the dps too grinders are just horrible in my experience and i don't know why people like them so much sure they look good on paper but in practice they suck.
But princes without wings ain't a bit slow?

blake
15-01-2010, 17:14
Guy i know ran 1 Thirster, Few min unit of horrors, couple units of plaguebearers, 3 units of max Fiends and 3 Demon princes...

Army was tough as nails and fast as ****.

DuskRaider
15-01-2010, 18:30
Daemons don't need a new book, there's is perfectly fine and very competitive in capable hands.

CSM, on the other hand, is a book that, along with Dark Angels, is in desperate need of reworking. Both are based on what was supposed to be GW's "streamlined" approach to 5th Edition codices, which was thrown out due to all the negativity toward these two and the Eldar 'dex. The book is bland, boring, and needs an update not only to keep interest, but also to keep it competitive with the new books.

I myself have all but put my Death Guard and World Eaters away until the prospect of a new 'dex comes over the horizon. The rumor that Inquisition is canceled gives me more hope we'll be up sooner, though.

Epicenter
15-01-2010, 19:14
It's interesting you say that C:CSM is subpar. While some wags can accuse the codex of being carried by Plague Marines, it's actually a pretty strong codex. It's certainly not "subpar" in my opinion, far from it - I'd still put it as one of the "top drawer" codexes. I used to say it was stronger than C:SM, but I think now that people are finally learning the ins-and-outs of C:SM (ie; always take TH/SS terminators), C:SM armies are looking more powerful so I think they're about the same.

Cult Troops as troops is very powerful. The four Chaos gods are never all in ascendance in any Chaos codex. Khorne and Nurgle are waxing brightly. Really, Nurgle is almost always a good choice in any of the CSM codexes I can remember but are ridiculously strong right now, with PMs essentially being more survivable than Terminators (except 3+ invuln SS) for nearly half of the price. Slaanesh is kinda in the doghouse right now, replacing Khorne who was in there last edition. TBH, I can't remember the last time Tzeentch was any good in any of the codexes. 1k sons have always been overpriced underperformers.

The rest of the codex has hit or miss units, and while there are some truly "miss" units (Spawn, anyone?), a lot of the "miss" units are simply not taken because units like Plague Marines and Khorne Berserkers are so good.

Vaktathi
15-01-2010, 21:37
It's not that one can't make very powerful armies with the CSM book, I don't use Plague Marines or Lash Princes in my CSM army and I win *far* more often than not with it, rather it's that the internal balance is rather poor, and in terms of soul and feel from the previous book, indeed the army as a whole, just doesn't have the same feel as it did, at least to a rather large number of CSM players.

In terms of raw competitiveness, it's still rather high up there, although if one is just building an "undivided" force without really looking to use cult units and the like, the SW book can make almost an identical force that's better and cheaper.

Bloodspeaker
15-01-2010, 21:45
If some can't understand the fact the more random the army the less competitive it can be then i give up, that goes for daemons, yes you can win with them yes they have some powerful units but as an army suffer from poor design, lot's of random elements incorporated into their list and lack of serious
AV capabilities.
If you spend some time playing with them you will understand these facts, that's why they need a new codex not because they have outdated rules or weak units.

As for csm they have one maybe two powerful builds and that's all, no variety, very little viable options and a very unimiginative and bland codex same with DA and Eldar, if you can't understand that or don't agree yet take the marine dex and those that were released after that and the orks codex put them side to side and compare them if you still can't find any difference than i can't help because you either suffer from brain damage or narcissism and i don't direct this to anyone in particular i'm just describing the situation.

I agree that plague marines are very powerful and oblits are awesome and princes are broken but the bottom line is that 3-4 units don't make a good codex.

kane40k
15-01-2010, 22:00
TBH i dont mind the latest CSM Dex. it is starting to show its age a bit... Jaws of the world Wolf GRRRRRRR! although wind of chaos can be jus as bad if used right....

All i want is a Cultist unit that gives 1+ to ALL friendly demonic reserve rolls, but have Guardsman Profiles. But thats Wishlisting so ill stop their before i get myself Busted by the Inquisition or something simular...
i heard from my cousin that he read an interview that said they would LIKE to do the legion Books... that doesnt mean its definate but it means it may happen before or During 6 :D just my thoughts on chaos and 5th! cya! :D

samuraibobx
19-01-2010, 23:44
While I believe that we won't be in the rotation until late-ish 5th and/or early 6th, I definitely think we need an update. Nowadays, rampant psychic defense, mechanization, and good army-wide special rules (looking at you Space Mutts >.> ) seems to kind of leave us in the dust. Imo, it doesn't help that some armies can field an entire battery of ludicrous Str 8+ weapons (looking at you Guard), but I seriously think we need an update.

Personally, I'm hoping for Dreadclaws. Pop some Beserkers in one and poke some gribbles with it :o Also, I'd like 1k Sons to have their turn in the sun. For the god of plans and contingencies, you'd think that Tzeench would anticipate all this new stuff (i.e. assloads of Manticores) and give his favored guys a little powerup :P

Bloodriver
20-01-2010, 00:44
As has already been pointed out, Daemons are fully 5th ed. Given that we're probably already close to halfway through 5th ed's lifespan, I'd rather wait until 6th ed for a new CSM 'dex, and HOPE they get it right next time. The current one can just about hold the fort til then.

Lord of Worms
20-01-2010, 03:47
As has already been pointed out, Daemons are fully 5th ed. Given that we're probably already close to halfway through 5th ed's lifespan, I'd rather wait until 6th ed for a new CSM 'dex, and HOPE they get it right next time. The current one can just about hold the fort til then.

They had better get it right. I bought the current codex when it first came out along with the boxed army and a bunch of other freebies; I felt very conflicted. I just bought an assload of models (which is usually exciting), but the codex made me want to puke.:(

kane40k
25-01-2010, 21:09
They had better get it right. I bought the current codex when it first came out along with the boxed army and a bunch of other freebies; I felt very conflicted. I just bought an assload of models (which is usually exciting), but the codex made me want to puke.:(

:( maaaan i dont mind the new (old) codex but its just lost a bit of character. they're just pissed off spacemarines realy... they jus threw their rattels out the pram and got some naughty buddys to deepstike in support! it USED to be COOOOOL! and Undivided had a meaning. :( now khorne wil fight WITH slaanesh? Frankly i will NOT fight with the Tactless All Brawn Berserker unless in the direst Circumstances (which usualy involves allieing with my Khornate Cousin(real life cousin too)) lol Where are the good old days when i had to a have a good Middle man (undivided) to make that Happen? :( i miss the Character of the Deamon Princes too. they used to be awsome And Mutatable.... now they are just... well.... Princes. Rules wise i like them But Fluff wise.... to be Blunt..... IT SUCKS! :( :skull:

IJW
25-01-2010, 21:40
If some can't understand the fact the more random the army the less competitive it can be then i give up
If you can't understand that stating subjective opinion as fact tends to annoy people, maybe you should give up. ;)

As has already been mentioned, Daemons did reasonably well at the UK GT heat 2, and at heat 3 the top Daemon player came 11th - higher than IG, Tyranids, Sisters, Wolves etc. and higher than all but one of the Ork players.

MegaPope
25-01-2010, 23:59
The CSM codex is like a bowl of oatmeal - good, wholesome stuff that will feed you well and keep you going in adversity. But unfortunately, eaten alone, it is very bland.

CSMs ended up like that. If the Guard are an example of how to write what is effectively a very generalised army list that nevertheless can cater to many many tastes (for example, the Veterans unit entry can justify the inclusion of almost any human model with a gun), then the CSMs are a case study in how not to do so.

I wasn't as disappointed by the loss of individual Legion rules as some people were (I played Word Bearers - that most vague of Legions - after all) but what I was sad at losing was the idea that these are ancient warriors here - or at the very least their fighting style is at its core that of an army of conquest rather than an army of occupation, something that is fairly antiquated in the 'modern' Imperium.

TBH I'd sooner have seen Lufgt Huron turn up in Codex: Space Marines (remember him in 2ed? He was your man if you wanted to field an army of corrupted 'modern' Marines who - crucially - kept all their modern equipment, at the cost of losing a lot of the 'ancient' stuff and access to Daemons). IMO, Codex CSMs should've had Cypher instead.

Dark Primus
26-01-2010, 03:17
I do also think the current CSM is blend but I think they improved it somewhat in some areas, removing the restraints certain armies couldn't have bikes or Raptors for example. I mean even Khorne units also need units that can shoot besides just bolters and bolt pistols and armed with axes.

The fluff in the current codex is written in a bad way, it totally lacks the thrill from the 3rd codex that was Chaos and the horros they represented, and I miss that part.

If a Chaos SM wishlist pops up in the near future I do have a few ideas I would like to suggest. :)

SideshowLucifer
26-01-2010, 05:55
We pretty much let pple run the legions with the current csm codex and daemon codex. I turns out to be a lot of fun that way and makes everyone happy without being over or under-powered.

Darthvegeta800
26-01-2010, 06:54
Daemons don't need a new book, there's is perfectly fine and very competitive in capable hands.

CSM, on the other hand, is a book that, along with Dark Angels, is in desperate need of reworking. Both are based on what was supposed to be GW's "streamlined" approach to 5th Edition codices, which was thrown out due to all the negativity toward these two and the Eldar 'dex. The book is bland, boring, and needs an update not only to keep interest, but also to keep it competitive with the new books.

I myself have all but put my Death Guard and World Eaters away until the prospect of a new 'dex comes over the horizon. The rumor that Inquisition is canceled gives me more hope we'll be up sooner, though.

A good point, but I do hope we all agree that DE, Necrons and Inquisition (GK's/SoB's) should come first? I mean sheesh... talk about outdated.

Znail
26-01-2010, 08:24
I dont think we should expect any new codex for either before 6th edition. Its would also be a bit of a waste as the current codexes doesnt have any rules conflicts with 5th edition. So it would be much better if they get updated after 6th edition comes so as to be in line with those rules instead of getting an extra 5th edition when they already are ment for 5th.

The God of Decay
26-01-2010, 08:49
Why would they?

Both books are completely viable within the currenth 5th ed. atmosphere, and allow players to take multiple varities of competitive lists.

If anything they'll be in line after such things as Dark Eldar, Eldar, Inquisition, Necrons, etc.

d


The CSM book has variety? The only thing that actually useful anymore seems to be taking Nurgle Daemon Princes with wings, Khorne Berserkers and Nurgle Plague Marines! Our codex is GIMPED! Gimped I say!

There's not much variety! No one takes a chaos lord anymore! what point do the mounts have anymore without daemonic powers! The CSM codex got underpowered by Alessio and Gav Thorpe! I'm sorry if i offend anyone by saying that but Alessio Calvatore doesn't know what he's doing! He was involved in the 5th ed Rulebook too, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out that the omission of the Ordnance Weapons Penetration Chart was his doing, as well as the Can't consolidate into combat. Okay, if im i daemon prince, im not going to hold short my attack especially when i'm an inch away from clobbering another unit. I'm NOT going to say "here, i'll stand here in the open so you can shoot and kill me because i have to wait to assault you, why? because whoever wrote the rulebook is probably in kindergarten." It's not realistic anymore! Ordnance weapons cause vehicles to do more than just explode D6", they throw shrapnel everywhere! They would DENY cover because they have such a great concussive force!

Sorry for rambling,

Yes, we BETTER see the Chaos Codex redone or REPLACED with the Legions Codeces, and BTW GW, PUT THE DAEMONS IN WITH THE MARINES! It makes no sense! A Khorne Lord would summon Khorne Daemons to assist, not generic pos's! Combine the Codexes! Strike Fear into the Hearts of Loyalists once again! I'm tired of getting bashed by Pedro! Bring back the power of chaos! More psychic powers! More Weapons, More Daemonic Gifts! Chaos Lords chan have more than just a daemon weapon! They can have Daemonic gifts as well!

Chaos for Pre-6th Ed!


I play them both, but I would have to say it's very unlikely. There's a dozen books to do before they get an update and I'd much rather see the traitor legions addressed individually.


While i agree that some dexes need to be redone first [COUGH] Dark Eldar![Cough] I think Chaos should be next up for next year. Next fall, should be the release of Chaos Revised. I think that's a pretty good timetable, get all their Xenos out of the way. Maybe Release Templars and Dark Angels at the same time? All they really need is Conversion kits, they don't actually need special models beyond what they have. Blood angels needed the update because they haven't had any new models in a while, and the last codex we got was a WD insert :(

I would rather see in the ways of Xenos this year, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Eldar, AND Tau. Tau over Necrons more Preferrably.

Chaos needs to be Undivided once again, and done before 6th edition comes out.



again, sorry for ranting on earlier.

MegaPope
26-01-2010, 10:20
it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out that the omission of the Ordnance Weapons Penetration Chart was his doing, as well as the Can't consolidate into combat.

Consolidation of the vehicle damage charts into one chart with a sliding scale of modifiers was what made vehicles more survivable in 5ed - something that was badly needed IMO, although a sliding-scale, expanded damage chart on 2D6 would've allow for even more variety of damage results.

Can't consolidate into combat: while I agree that this also makes no sense from a common-sense viewpoint, in game balance terms it was also badly required - it suddenly made Guard playable again, even before their new codex.

However, both of these are issues with the post 3ed core rules, not the CSM codex, so I digress...


Yes, we BETTER see the Chaos Codex redone or REPLACED with the Legions Codeces, and BTW GW, PUT THE DAEMONS IN WITH THE MARINES!

A legion codex will not solve any core problems, and besides, the last time we had legions is basically amounted to an Iron Warrior-fest. And you KNOW that there'd be one Legion out of the nine that would end up both abusive and abused again. Far better to go the IG route and have a good core army list that you can then use to diversify.
IMO each of the Undivided Legions could pretty much be represented by one Veteran skill - Alpha Legion: Infiltrate, Word Bearers: Stubborn, Iron Warriors: Move Through Cover, Night Lords: Night Vision. Only the Black Legion don't have an obvious standpoint that springs to mind, although theirs could easily be Preferred Enemy: Loyalist Space Marines ;)
Everything else they need or could have could be included in the core army list.

Daemons...yes, I am one of those people who believe that 'the split' should not have occurred. After all, both resulting armies gained very little - Daemons got Daemonic Cavalry (which were in a previous CSM codex anyway), Chariots (even I fail to suspend my disbelief at that one on a 40K battlefield) and the Soulgrinder (a Defiler variant that should've been just that...a Defiler variant).

The CSMs, for their part of the bargain, got...a Vindicator (which as a heresy-era piece of equipment should've been in the lists from the start) and unit limit relaxations (which would've come anway, because the best way to sell more stuff is to not restrict its use so much - see Codex IG). Sadly, a lot of the units got hit with, not the nerf, but the blanderisation bat.

They also got Lash of Slaanesh (yawn) and Bob Dropped The Stick (oh so cringeworthy!)

Anyway, I'd say that, for good or ill, we're stuck with it for now, so we've just got to make the best of it. There are quite a few near-obsolete codicies out there, and ours ain't one of them...

samiens
26-01-2010, 11:17
I really hope they don't go back to the uniform nonsense of the 3.5 ed codex for csm- its the only codex that has implied that the legions still operate as a single unit- not very chaosy. What's more, from a competitive point of view there are plenty of competitive units- but they require a totally different synergy to the plague-oblit-lash list that is harder to acheive to be fair. I could compile a list of units that are actually awful (spawn anyone?) but its nowhere near as long as some would have you believe

I don't want to start a flame war but feel free to PM me for a more in depth discussion

maze ironheart
26-01-2010, 12:23
I'd be happy if they just released that damn plastic daemon prince. Seriously GW it WILL sell!

Either way no I dont think Daemons or Chaos are going to be getting a new codex any time in the next few years. New models yep, but no codex.

I aggree but one thing I want is marks not stupid Icons stopped using terminators cause the Icons was not worth it and maybe a point reduction on a few things.

Znail
26-01-2010, 12:58
Daemons...yes, I am one of those people who believe that 'the split' should not have occurred. After all, both resulting armies gained very little - Daemons got Daemonic Cavalry (which were in a previous CSM codex anyway), Chariots (even I fail to suspend my disbelief at that one on a 40K battlefield) and the Soulgrinder (a Defiler variant that should've been just that...a Defiler variant).

Daemons got quite alot more then that. Most of the units may have been around in some version since before, but not with the current detailed rules and diffirentation between units. The Daemon codex offers quite alot of varity and distinct units. Moving back to a combined codex would be a large step backward for anyone playing Daemons.

The only problem is that GW has some kind of policy against including the same unit in multiple codex, somehow forgetting they have Rhinos, Vindicators, Landraiders etc all over the place. It would be no more confusing with some Daemons in the CSM codex.

MegaPope
26-01-2010, 13:11
Daemons got quite alot more then that. Most of the units may have been around in some version since before, but not with the current detailed rules and diffirentation between units. The Daemon codex offers quite alot of varity and distinct units. Moving back to a combined codex would be a large step backward for anyone playing Daemons.

The only problem is that GW has some kind of policy against including the same unit in multiple codex, somehow forgetting they have Rhinos, Vindicators, Landraiders etc all over the place. It would be no more confusing with some Daemons in the CSM codex.

Fair enough points. It's personal view on my part, but to my mind a purely daemonic army in 40K just doesn't 'feel' right. In WFB, yes - that's a world with two broken warpgates at either end, the Daemonic equivalent of the green channel at Customs. In 40K I feel there should be some kind of trigger or something (possession, secret cults etc) not random warpgates popping open like some gothic sci-fi version of Oblivion...

But that's just my view, and we've got the thing now, together with dedicated players, so Squattng it would be unthinkable :eek:

I think an Ally system on the lines of the Inquisitorial Codicies would have made a great deal of sense for CSM/Daemon crossovers. As it stands, the forces from the two books make a fearsome combination in multi-FOC games. Sadly, since GW want to move away from this (and can't seem to figure out quite what to do with Inquisitorial armies as a result) this likely won't be an option unless you house rule it.

IJW
26-01-2010, 13:23
Technically, all-daemon armies in 40k date back to the late Eighties and the two Realm of Chaos books. In other words, they have a longer history in the game than Craftworld Eldar, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Tau and 'modern' Tyranids. ;)

The God of Decay
26-01-2010, 14:40
Fair enough points. It's personal view on my part, but to my mind a purely daemonic army in 40K just doesn't 'feel' right. In WFB, yes - that's a world with two broken warpgates at either end, the Daemonic equivalent of the green channel at Customs. In 40K I feel there should be some kind of trigger or something (possession, secret cults etc) not random warpgates popping open like some gothic sci-fi version of Oblivion...

But that's just my view, and we've got the thing now, together with dedicated players, so Squattng it would be unthinkable :eek:

I think an Ally system on the lines of the Inquisitorial Codicies would have made a great deal of sense for CSM/Daemon crossovers. As it stands, the forces from the two books make a fearsome combination in multi-FOC games. Sadly, since GW want to move away from this (and can't seem to figure out quite what to do with Inquisitorial armies as a result) this likely won't be an option unless you house rule it.


Well, I don't think they should be squatted, more rather combined into the same codex. Not really squatting by definition, you'll still be able to field Daemons, but you'll also be able to field marines as well. Maybe something along the lines of:

"If your Chaos Army Fields At least one Daemon Prince, you may take units from Codex: Chaos Daemons in your force organization chart. These units enter the battlefield via Daemonic Assault as listed in their codex."

All I wanted, was that sentence right there. So I'd have a reason to use my Fast Attack slots. Bikes suck, Spawn suck, raptors suck (if they're not Troops...), basically, CSM has no good fast attack choices. Daemons would've filled those slots easily.

Ooh, GW, please hear my cry, bring back the days when Loyalists fear the name of Chaos. Also, Where did the Chaos Cultists go? I wants my swarm!

It's just my opinion though, Chaos SHOULD be better than space marines. We marines with daemonic powers dammit!

nightgant98c
26-01-2010, 15:50
I highly doubt either will, but it really depends on when 6th is released. If 5th has a long run, it could very well happen.

gwarsh41
26-01-2010, 16:00
I would love a new daemon codex, just to have a little power creep though :)

I am satisfied with it, there are some things that just dont work well like nurgle beasts. But I think its going to be a fun army. I doubt that they will be giving daemons any special treatment. We are still lacking so many models; I would rather have a few models than a 5th ed codex.

FashaTheDog
26-01-2010, 16:14
Also take into account that just because an army needs an update does not mean they will get one. If GW feels a Chaos codex will sell better than Inquisition, Dark Eldar, Necrons, or some other codex then why not hold off on those. Look at the prior two editions and which armies got more than one codex. While this is no assurance of future trends, it may give an idea on what to expect for priorities. Or it may not.