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Khorneguy
15-01-2010, 15:56
I am going to be bold here and say that, despite popular opinion, that i think deamons are not 'broken'

After many discussions/ arguments with my local gaming group over this subject, i thought i'd throw it out here.

Pros of Deamons

Hard hitting
Deep Strike all round - unsurpassed objective takers
Very powerful characters
No need to limit yourself to one god, allowing powerful combinations

Cons of Deamons

Deep Strike dependant
- relying on luck with reserve rolls with no way of modifying those rolls
- relying on not teleporting into terrain

Troops choices are fairly easy to kill and most of the time these are what's going to win you the game

Mainly close combat orientated army that then *has* to stand around out of combat the turn they arrive


The way i see it the cons far outweigh any potential pros of the amry, so why are people so convinced they're broken?

Skyros
15-01-2010, 16:05
Well, if they are overpowered, they are nowhere near their fantasy brethren in terms of broken-ness :D

I think complaints revolve around the entire army having invuln saves and their general immunity to force weapons, which are supposed to counter demons.

SimpleSquid
15-01-2010, 16:05
I thought it was only in fantasy they were considered broken. In 40k most people seem to think them middle tier, or some even a bit lower.

Reinholt
15-01-2010, 16:05
Nobody I know regards them as broken, or anything close to it.

For us, they are a middle tier army that requires some careful list building and thoughtful play to make work.

x-esiv-4c
15-01-2010, 16:06
Since when were they broken?

Rydmend
15-01-2010, 16:07
I never hear them called "broken" around here. They can be quite hard to play well on a consistant basis due to thier random deployment.

Fantasy is a different story.

Bassline
15-01-2010, 16:09
Daemons are very strong as most people do mech so keep there troops in transport. What daemons fear is troops out of transport rapid firing everything they got.

But they do have some broken things. Flamers template + 4+ wound + no save = easy to get points back even if just lasts one round.

Normal troops with power weapons and Inv save. Poor space wolves hate them :(

Khorneguy
15-01-2010, 16:14
Broken seems to be applied to them in both 40k and fantasy in our area.

Sihsboy
15-01-2010, 16:14
The saves, while all invul, are mostly quite low (high?) troops being mainly 5+ IIRC. Making pretty much everything vulnerable to shooting. As a main point, Half your army starts on the board vs the full army of the opponent. Unless you're very lucky with your reserves, the rest of your army comes in drips and drabs, deep striking possibly into terrain or scattering. Most of the demon army is CC specced, so you try to deep strike close to make them effective, increasing mis-hap chances, and sticking them directly in line-of-fire for shooting. Put them further away and you risk not being able to use them for a couple of turns while they move into range.

I don't have a demon army, but a few of my friends at the local store do, and have found this to be the main problem.

Netfreakk
15-01-2010, 16:22
I have a daemon army, in low point games they seem very powerful as the amount of fire that it takes to take them out is difficult to produce. If your opponent are investing points in vehicles (mostly rhinos), in a low point game, the model count will be small for them allowing daemons to have more models on the board. Though they would still need to be "lucky" to be able to pop those vehicles before destroying the squishy stuff.

What point value are you playing in? In higher point games, a fully mechinized army is the bane of daemons as they have a very hard time destroying vehicles imo, unless it's a tzeench heavy list, which you then counter by just assaulting everything which will take out the horrors pretty quickly.

Eldoriath
15-01-2010, 16:31
I find them as a balanced army in terms of power, they are middle-tier as many has said.

mattjgilbert
15-01-2010, 16:36
Khorneguy, can you give some reasons why you (or your group) think they are broken in 40K? Maybe some example lists?

It's certainly not popular opinion! ;)

Khorneguy
15-01-2010, 16:53
I'm new to the group, so i'm bringing a whole new point of view into the mix, but they're adamant that the army is broken and if you don't win with them, you're an awful player.

It's gotten to the point where they've banned them from the league that's starting up soon

these are some of the things they cite

They say they have cheesy broken elites and character that basically means you don't have to worry about your troops because they'll table you before it even comes down to grabbing objectives

They say that the entire army having an invunerable save makes them too powerful (despite the fact that the saves are just 5 or 6 most of the time)

The fact that none of their psychic powers can be nullified

The fact that force weapons have no effect on them - the invunerable save means that you might as well be waving a pointy stick at them

they also say that almost everything in the codex is too cheap, points wise

Bassline
15-01-2010, 16:57
I'm new to the group, so i'm bringing a whole new point of view into the mix, but they're adamant that the army is broken and if you don't win with them, you're an awful player.

It's gotten to the point where they've banned them from the league that's starting up soon

these are some of the things they cite

They say they have cheesy broken elites and character that basically means you don't have to worry about your troops because they'll table you before it even comes down to grabbing objectives

They say that the entire army having an invunerable save makes them too powerful (despite the fact that the saves are just 5 or 6 most of the time)

The fact that none of their psychic powers can be nullified

The fact that force weapons have no effect on them - the invunerable save means that you might as well be waving a pointy stick at them

they also say that almost everything in the codex is too cheap, points wise

just an FYI its as they all got eternal warrior not all have inv save what makes force weapons crap against them.

Khorneguy
15-01-2010, 17:02
just an FYI its as they all got eternal warrior not all have inv save what makes force weapons crap against them.

I know, but the inv. save means that it doesn't even work like a power weapon

The pestilent 1
15-01-2010, 17:04
Ahhh Warseer.
Two weeks ago Daemons were underpowered.
Last week someone claimed to do well with them in Tournaments (Presumably with a 127124loads237463724/ 0 /0, W/L/D record) and now they are overpowered.

IronNerd
15-01-2010, 17:09
Isn't the Fatecrusher list about the only list that's any good?

JonnyX
15-01-2010, 17:11
Firstly the fact they have to split the army weakens it alot as they are split into bite-size chunks and the possibilty of misshaps limits where they can go.
Secondly the 40k counterparts are nowhere near as cheesy as they cannot use tzeentch magic in the same was as WFB and a large aspect of daemon armies in fantasy revolve their stratergy around causing fear and terror with leadership modifyers (which arent in 40k).
Lastly 40k ranged weaponry is generally much better as u cant take an inv + an armor save so daemons get shot down quicker in 40k thank fantasy
Just my thoughts, Jon

Netfreakk
15-01-2010, 17:24
I don't want to sound like an ass, but it seems that either your group isn't able to adapt to the daemons either through lack of skill or stubborness. Just like u stated daemons have terrible saves even if they are invuln. They generally have a 33% chance of saving their saves which means thry quickly die to mass shots. They come in pieces and might scatter and not do anythingfor the rest of the game. Force weapons aren't even that good anyways as they generally come from I4 librarians who imo aren't good as a common power fist is just as good if not better against daemons. And about daemon's "psychic" powers... they're abilities like chapter tactics etc... they just work. Yes breath of chaos is extremely strong no doubt. But it's not invincible.

I just don't see how u can just automatically state that they are imba when they're not near that level. Especially since they can all scatter and might not even be used.

Sorry for the rant.

Thud
15-01-2010, 18:26
Broken? As in over-powered? :confused:

They are one of the most under-powered armies in the game.

Skyros
15-01-2010, 18:54
just an FYI its as they all got eternal warrior not all have inv save what makes force weapons crap against them.

That's really the only thing I see to complain about. Force weapons just don't work against the people they're most supposed to work against.

But then again, just how common are force weapons anyway?

Darnok
15-01-2010, 19:01
There must be somebody confusing 40K Daemons and WHF Daemons. The latter are considered to be broken. But the 40K Daemons are quite balanced - anybody claiming them to be broken just doesn't know what he's talking about in my opinion.

To the OP: your group is being silly, nothing more.

wilsongrahams
15-01-2010, 19:02
I'm another to stick my oar in and vote that Daemons in 40k are underpar and only 'broken' in Fantasy. Some consider this a way for players of Daemons from either system to be dragged into playing the other - Daemon Fantasy players not wanting to seem broken start 40k, and fed up 40k players start playing Fantasy to win more.

TimLeeson
15-01-2010, 19:10
I find that hillarious. I play pure Tzeentch Daemons occasionally I win and lose on a 50/50 basis. I'd say thats pretty balanced. I suggest you slap your gaming group with a wet fish, it sounds like they need one to see sense.

Sfixterman
15-01-2010, 19:51
Daemons are not broken. They have a good codex, with much to choose from BUT... you can only make one army list. This army list is going to beat some other army lists quite easily. Against other, different lists... it is DOOMED. The thing with daemons is that you have to be alittle lucky in the begining of the game........

But hey, this happen with every single army in 40K...
Damn GW writers!!!

dtjunkie19
15-01-2010, 19:59
I think your gaming group may be broken.


Demons in 40k sure are not. I had one game where my opponent lost all but 10 or so models do to mishap. The ones that didn't die due to mishap got to be placed by me into the far opposite corner of the board. Only The Masque made it onto the board without problems...well until she realized she was the only model facing down my entire list.

enigma-96
15-01-2010, 20:00
Have to agree with everyone else on this one as I'm starting daemons and I can already see that most battles will essentially boil down to extreme tactical brilliance, not likely :cries:, or more often than not excessive amounts of luck getting me the win.

The problem with today's generation of gamers is that they can hear about things from a ton of different sources, Warseer for example, and then act like what they read was truth without even varifying it first. I mean **** has your group ever played 40k daemons? or are they taking what they heard about Fantasy daemons, which is pretty much true, and applying that to the woefully underpowered 40k variant.

Don't want to sound rude but it's VERY obvious that 40k daemons just can't cut it against most of the newer armies. Especially if they're meched up.

Bassline
15-01-2010, 20:00
That's really the only thing I see to complain about. Force weapons just don't work against the people they're most supposed to work against.

But then again, just how common are force weapons anyway?

In the new dex very common but done on opponents LD not yours

owen matthew
15-01-2010, 20:04
They are not OP, they are not very good at all for any type of competative play (very occasional exceptions aside). Great for fun, though.

fall3nang3l
15-01-2010, 20:09
The general consensus is against fantasy daemons. lets compare your points.


Pros of Deamons

Hard hitting
Deep Strike all round - unsurpassed objective takers
Very powerful characters
No need to limit yourself to one god, allowing powerful combinations

Both true about fantasy and 40k, minus the deep strike which doesnt apply to fantasy

Cons of Deamons

Deep Strike dependant
- relying on luck with reserve rolls with no way of modifying those rolls
- relying on not teleporting into terrain

there is no deep strike in fantasy

Troops choices are fairly easy to kill and most of the time these are what's going to win you the game

certain troops are difficult to kill, but generally they are easier to shoot down. In 40k guns are a plenty, unless it is a gunline army, the same cannot be said to fantasy.

Mainly close combat orientated army that then *has* to stand around out of combat the turn they arrive

also as stated before, most armies are out of combat first turn anyway so not a disadvantage

The way i see it the cons far outweigh any potential pros of the amry, so why are people so convinced they're broken?

Shipmonkey
15-01-2010, 20:20
They say they have cheesy broken elites and character that basically means you don't have to worry about your troops because they'll table you before it even comes down to grabbing objectives

Sure there elites and HQs are very good, they are also very expensive and random. Having your powerful units get a bad deepstrike roll and die before fielding them is a major pain.


They say that the entire army having an invunerable save makes them too powerful (despite the fact that the saves are just 5 or 6 most of the time)

As you say yourself, the save are not that bad. A unit that always gets a +5 save isn't as annoying as the number of MEQ armies out there.

The Deathwing also has army wide invulnerable saves and it never gets knock as cheesy or overpowered for having them.


The fact that none of their psychic powers can be nullified

From a fluff perspective, the dangers of being a psyker are channeling the Warp through a mortal mind and the potential of daemonic possession. A daemon isn't worrying about either of these.

From a game perspective, sure you can't stop their powers, but on the other hand daemons have absolutley no anti-psychic abilities either.


The fact that force weapons have no effect on them - the invunerable save means that you might as well be waving a pointy stick at them

Strangely enough, Daemon Hunter force weapons do just fine against them.


they also say that almost everything in the codex is too cheap, points wise

You get a price break for the inherent randomness of the army. Plus you in a close combat army that has to sit take a full turn of shooting before it can do anything, you need a small points break. And the break isn't that large most the troops are marine points cost or more per trooper.

susu.exp
15-01-2010, 20:32
Daemons are generally mid power, but they do get pretty ugly in small games. Their rules also mean they are unaffected by some things that do great against most other armies, which means all-comers lists can struggle. Your typical army list spends quite a few points on power weapons, which are voided by the invul saves. Playing Khorne Deamons means, armour won´t work (and neither will FNP and WBB), pit your Bloodletters against Orks and they will quite probably lose. Pit them against Pleague Marines and they will ignore the 3+ armour and FNP the PM are paying lots of points for.

The ability to ignore other armies equipment means that Daemons do well against Elite forces and in small games (where the requirement to run an HQ means that a substantial part of your army is well equppied elite for your army). It does horribly in large games, against mechanized lists and against Hordes. This means that the army is balanced against the whole range of opponents, but may not be against specific armies.
We´ve got a mono-Khorne player who has a 1.25k list right now. I usually play Nurgle CSM, now also Necrons, and a list that consists of 'Letters, Wound group crushers and a Thirster is an uphill struggle for me. Now, that list against Orks or IG is death to the Daemons. Or CC Nids. Imagine Facing a horde of Hormangants that do not mind your power weapons, because they have no save in the first place and are just happy to see no fire comming their way. Since you are DSing the Daemons they´ll likely get the charge as well and will strike first...

Kelderaith
15-01-2010, 20:37
Daemon can be quite good when "abused" (I mean those very extreme list that people makes... which alternatively cost about as much as 2-3 other armies out there), but they are very "mid tier" when played in a balanced way. I played daemon for 1 year and I was doing good with them (they are nowhere near as random as people make them out to be), but not extraordinary or invincible with them either (I was playing a balanced list).

I agree with most of people's opinion though, they really suffer against mech (which alternatively was a lot less popular when I played them extensively) and I probably would have faired a lot worse than I was back then if I was playing them in today's metagame.

Hell, I still can't really see how you can win vs well played orks with daemon, even after having playing vs orks for nearly 2 years now.

Conclusion: Daemon are far from broken. Fantasy Daemon are entirely another story. Do not mix the lots, it really makes you seem silly (not you particularly, but your gaming group in general).

Khorneguy
15-01-2010, 20:43
I don't want to sound like an ass, but it seems that either your group isn't able to adapt to the daemons either through lack of skill or stubborness. .

I think that's just their problem. They just see 'different' as bad.

Apparently there was one bloke who came in and annihalated his way through the campaign that they were running when when the Deamons book first came out and now they can't get their heads round the fact that it's been suplanted as 'top 'dex'

CrownAxe
15-01-2010, 20:45
The fact that none of their psychic powers can be nullified

Daemons don't have psychic powers

IJW
15-01-2010, 20:58
it's been suplanted as 'top 'dex'
It hasn't been supplanted as 'top dex', it was never 'top dex' to start with...

Daemons play drastically differently to all other 40k armies. That normally means that the first 3-4 times you play against them you lose, badly. After that you work out their weaknesses and suddenly they are a middle-tier army with no 'brokenness' involved. Honestly, they simply aren't that scary.

Bassline
15-01-2010, 20:59
Daemons don't have psychic powers

Fluff wise they do but there power over the warp (as they are part of it) is so strong no human can stop it

morwa
15-01-2010, 21:26
For me they are not broken. They are random, so always when i play them its slaughter - my army or enenmys.

CrownAxe
15-01-2010, 21:42
Fluff wise they do but there power over the warp (as they are part of it) is so strong no human can stop it

Yes i know the fluff, I play daemons

It matters for actual gameplay

Vaktathi
15-01-2010, 21:46
The way i see it the cons far outweigh any potential pros of the amry, so why are people so convinced they're broken?

They aren't unless you sit there making bloodcrusher spam wound allocation gaming Fateweaver builds. Aside from that they aren't in any way broken, and more often than not are rather lackluster.

freddieyu
15-01-2010, 21:46
I am going to be bold here and say that, despite popular opinion, that i think deamons are not 'broken'

After many discussions/ arguments with my local gaming group over this subject, i thought i'd throw it out here.

Pros of Deamons

Hard hitting
Deep Strike all round - unsurpassed objective takers
Very powerful characters
No need to limit yourself to one god, allowing powerful combinations

Cons of Deamons

Deep Strike dependant
- relying on luck with reserve rolls with no way of modifying those rolls
- relying on not teleporting into terrain

Troops choices are fairly easy to kill and most of the time these are what's going to win you the game

Mainly close combat orientated army that then *has* to stand around out of combat the turn they arrive


The way i see it the cons far outweigh any potential pros of the amry, so why are people so convinced they're broken?

They are not broken at all in 40K. In fantasy yes..maybe the 40k version got a bum rap from it's fantasy reputation in your area?

Is your group mostly space marines? That could be the reason since daemons are quite good versus power armor. Against the IG, mech eldar for example, they have a difficult time...

druchii
15-01-2010, 21:54
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

This has to be one of the most absurd things I've ever heard about 40k.

I mean, really, demons? Not av12 spam guard, not vulkan marines, not nob bikers, not green tide, not dual seer council eldar, not dual lash chaos, but demons?

Don't get me wrong, I think pretty much every army has its strengths and weaknesses (except for Leafblower variants-but that's a different thread) but the fact that someone would gloss over all those other armies and call demons broken makes me very scared for the sanity of all 40k players. Ever.

On the note of force weapons, if the SW codex is anything to guess by, soon ALL force weapons will wound demons on 2+.

d

Hicks
15-01-2010, 22:39
I play against daemons a lot and I have to say that I don't find them broken. They are really entertaining to play against, since they change the dynamic of the game and rely so much on luck. Yes i can say that they can be powerfull, but for every game where the daemon player's plan goes perfect, there are games where everything goes very wrong.

I think they rely far too much on luck to be brocken, they either win big or lose terribly.

Netfreakk
15-01-2010, 22:42
On the note of force weapons, if the SW codex is anything to guess by, soon ALL force weapons will wound demons on 2+.


Unless the daemon takes blessing of the blood god. =P

TheDarkDuke
15-01-2010, 22:52
I'm think this is guy was hearing talk about fantasy deamons. understandable seeing as how they have the same name and the same models (soul grinder as a exception). 40k deamons are a balanced fun army ,fantasy deamons are a whole lot different, mainly due to the fact that they ignore quite a few rules from the rulebook.

Bassline
15-01-2010, 22:58
I play against daemons a lot and I have to say that I don't find them broken. They are really entertaining to play against, since they change the dynamic of the game and rely so much on luck. Yes i can say that they can be powerfull, but for every game where the daemon player's plan goes perfect, there are games where everything goes very wrong.

I think they rely far too much on luck to be brocken, they either win big or lose terribly.

Broken luck. No 3+ is not broken luck its just 66.6% chance luck Vs 33.33% chance luck...

loveless
15-01-2010, 23:01
Apparently there was one bloke who came in and annihalated his way through the campaign that they were running when when the Deamons book first came out and now they can't get their heads round the fact that it's been suplanted as 'top 'dex'

One wonders if said bloke was playing according to the rules or not. Note that Codex: Daemons cannot assault after deepstriking (outside of Planetstrike, if I recall properly).

I'm also curious as to the make-up of the local meta in this situation - what do most of these players use for armies?

Thud
15-01-2010, 23:07
I'm also curious as to the make-up of the local meta in this situation - what do most of these players use for armies?

Yeah, I'm curious as to that as well. What are these armies made up of that can't deal with Daemons? Chaos Spawn and LoTD?

Creeping Dementia
15-01-2010, 23:16
I hate to be just another echo but... Daemons? Really?
they can be tough if they roll really really well, but that only happens like once every 5 games or so, in my experience. They're too fickle to be consistently broken, are you sure they're being played legally over there?

Faddlevins
15-01-2010, 23:17
Yeah, it's sorta the same in my area. As i'm just about the only person who plays daemons when i win i sometimes hear mutterings (sometimes opponenet, sometimes bystanders) about how cheesy and overpowered daemons are.

Note that i run a BT, GUO, 5 fiends, 19 blood letters, 20 plaguebearers, 2 grinders, 1 prince. And it looks awesome, i spent a looooong time painting and converting them. I don't even use a single model with breath of chaos (a very bitched about ability when i was playtesting my army).

Some of the players from a nearby area do have bad experiences with fantasy daemons, so i can understand the prejudice even if i think they're jackasses.

I give out the same argument that most of you have, they're DS dependent which leads to luck dependent, crappy saves, low mobility for the most part after DS, CC oriented...

But it doesn't work, i just get eyeroll or the "but they're soooo good you don't need the luck!" or whatever. It's very irritating.

Skyros
15-01-2010, 23:18
One wonders if said bloke was playing according to the rules or not. Note that Codex: Daemons cannot assault after deepstriking (outside of Planetstrike, if I recall properly).

I'm also curious as to the make-up of the local meta in this situation - what do most of these players use for armies?

I do think perhaps demons in planetstrike using a ground observer may be broken, but that's a rather specialized case.

AlmightyNocturnus
16-01-2010, 00:07
Perhaps the poster meant to put this in the Warhammer Fantasy discussion area?

Almighty Nocturnus

Netfreakk
16-01-2010, 04:24
Hmmm... Maybe he just plays against an all infantry army and uses all breath of chaos daemon army. With that it might seem broken.... IF he's going against ALL infantry who line up for him perfectly and dont' shoot his icon wielding guys who didn't scatter off the face of the world....

Lord Solar Plexus
16-01-2010, 07:27
I am going to be bold here and say that, despite popular opinion, that i think deamons are not 'broken'


What popular opinion do you mean? I haven't heard a single person ever mention this notion, not here, not on Dakka, not on 40k online.

AmasNagol
16-01-2010, 09:15
lol@actually losing a game against 40k Demons if you run a competitive list.

40K Demons are the Yin to Fantasy Demons' Yang. They suck. Hairy balls.

Just play these people with a nice fluffy 2xLash Chaos list. Or MeltaManders. You know, a nice mid tier list. lols

harrytheschmuck
16-01-2010, 09:43
Broken? As in over-powered? :confused:

They are one of the most under-powered armies in the game.

thats a bit far. fatecrushers hard as nails, 5+ inv save or better with a re-roll is under-powered lol

Sircyn
16-01-2010, 11:51
There was a brief golden age while the daemon book was still in 4th ed when I dominated my local gaming store and gave daemons a mean reputation. As 5th ed came and people meched up and new books came out the daemons got worse and worse. I saw the tide changing so I gave them a rest before it be came too obvious in my group, the daemons still have a reputation despite them now not being anywhere near as nasty.

I think that the OP's group got curb stomped a few times in 4th and kept their negative views of the daemons since then, or they are still playing 4th ed armies with few vehicles and lots of squishy infantry for the daemons to nom om om. That or they just fail at 40k in general. I can't see how people could find daemons over powered in 40k.

Reading through the rest of the thread I can conclusively say the internets has spoken.

Thud
16-01-2010, 12:13
thats a bit far. fatecrushers hard as nails, 5+ inv save or better with a re-roll is under-powered lol

Considering the amount of points you have to shell out for Fateweaver and the fact that he's not exactly hard to kill, re-roll or not, leaves me rather unimpressed.

It's a neat gimmick, but that's about it.

self biased
16-01-2010, 17:35
Considering the amount of points you have to shell out for Fateweaver and the fact that he's not exactly hard to kill, re-roll or not, leaves me rather unimpressed.

It's a neat gimmick, but that's about it.

i concur. fateweaver has a colossal effect, but he's toughness five with three wounds that have difficulty claiming cover saves.

primarch16
16-01-2010, 17:49
Daemons arent broken. Any army can spam multiples of their best units, it doesnt make the army broken. My perfect daemon list would be something like:

Bloodthirster
x2 Heralds of Tzeentch chariots, with we are legion bolt etc
4 Bloodcrushers, all the trimmings
6 fiends, might
3 flamers of tzeentch
x3 (8) plaguebearers
maybe some bloodletters
Either 3 grinders or 3 nurgle princes, both are equally devastating but I'd go with the grinders.

Best units spammed, I sure as hell wouldnt like to fight this army.

AmasNagol
16-01-2010, 18:06
Is that 2k?

Dexter099
16-01-2010, 19:33
Uh, demons are only broken in fantasy, and should be removed from the game there. In 40k, they are a very interesting addition that really mixes things up.

viking657
16-01-2010, 22:58
Daemons scare me I haven't enough experience fighting them to form an opinon over how powerful or unpowered they are.
My Valhallans have been battered several times but I'm learning and that margin of loss is is getting smaller and thats the point really, every army has its strengths and weakeness and you have to adapt.

Any army be beaten on a regular basis if you know how, personally dawn of war with IG vs daemons - spread out I can put two full platoons on the table try deepstriking now without mishap you warp scum!

Ozybonza
16-01-2010, 23:48
You can always "reserve them out" - ie. they have to bring half their army down on turn 1, so just put your entire army in reserve. See where they land and when your army comes on you can really use it to your advantage.

Demons are by no means broken.

40kdhs
16-01-2010, 23:51
Why are deamons broken? Because GK's rules are outdated and GKs don't get any love from GW. It's obvious, isn't it?

When you see a new GK codex, i hope you don't say 'broke' deamon in your post any more.

Mephaine
17-01-2010, 00:41
Actually agreeing withan earlier statement sounds like their opinion is from the "Golden Age" Daemons. It could explain these stupid opinions. So simple old school facts.

-Skulltaker 4th Ed was God. On a 4+ to hit you die? Yeah easy to see how broken he was.
-Anything Slaaneshi was really nuts due to them being as fast as a Genestealer but cheaper and more attacks. Again old school rending does not help here as these lil blighters could shred a land raider.
-The sheer fact they were a new element to the meta didnt help as well as FNP being a lil harder back then. So Nurgle toys lasteda good bit longer.
-Back then yes they were dirt cheap. What you got for those points was scary. And even their "expensive" stuff coudl be rather nails for a moderate price. Example Skulltaker :P
-I believe Mishap was not as severe back then so that didnt help.

SO much more to go through but these guys happily abused 4th ed. Then 5th ed came and they hit their real power of mid tier when used effectively. Then of course time has passed and many armies have gotten cheaper as well as gained far more nasty tricks to deal with Daemons. With Mech ruling the meta anti-tank weapons are not rare meaning the mighty Soul Grinder is no longer such a terrorfying prospect. Mishap is bad. With it as well potential death off the table scatters you have a1 in 4 chance of living to try again. Still that delays the process.

So to the OP no Daemons aren't broke. I use to play them till I quit. Not due to losses butdue to people in myarea never changing and just basically giving up before the fight begun. IF your club's attitude is the same then how do they expect to do at tournies if they met Daemons?

Vaktathi
17-01-2010, 00:42
Except they existed in 4th ed for what, 7 weeks? If that? They were the first 5E army, so playing them for those few weeks would be a bit off kilter as many of their rules weren't designed for 4E.

Mudkip
17-01-2010, 00:59
It seems like your gaming group is largely alone on this matter. Try printing out this information leaflet I have produced and showing it to your gaming group, it may just persuade them:

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9434/12angrymencopy.jpg

harrytheschmuck
17-01-2010, 02:23
Considering the amount of points you have to shell out for Fateweaver and the fact that he's not exactly hard to kill, re-roll or not, leaves me rather unimpressed.

It's a neat gimmick, but that's about it.

then you need to tell the world how you manage to kill him so easy. ive sent whole armys agaist him and then slowley been eatern by crushers. if he doesnt feel like failing a save then i cant see any way past him

Mewy
17-01-2010, 02:39
First of all - deepstrike mishap in 4th ed was harsher than 5th ed. In 4th ed, if you mishapped, the unit died. In 5th Ed, you roll on a table, and only a 1 in 3 chance that you die.

I believe that demons are broken because...
- Tzeentch has straight 4+ in saves through the board
- Lord of change is a 3+ invulnerable save with the ability to shoot 3 targets per turn, then choose which sufficiently weakened one to charge to finish off with a still pretty decent stat line
- Nurgle demon princes only need to be around 140 points to make them insanely strong at taking anything out, especially Tyranid monsters to take advantage of always wounding on 2+ with no saves.
- Bloodletters are the same cost as a marine. They gain over the marine +1S, +1WS, furious charge, powerweapon, fearless... marine beats this with bolter and powerarmour. I know what stats i want...
- Bloodcrushers are the same cost as a terminator. (25pts more than a marine for stormbolter, powerfist, 2+ armour, 5+ invulnerable. Bloodcrushers are a bloodletter with an additional +1T, +1W, 3+ save, eternal warrior now comes into effect. Skulltaker can now hide in this nugget unit. I have placed this unit against god knows what at equal points... it DOESN'T die. TH Termies get wiped, all nid monsters get wiped, it wipes tanks, TW cavalry, rough riders, the only balance i see of them is that they cost $50 a model.
- Skulltakers statline gets boosted by his steed. It doesn't in fantasy.
- Keeper of Secrets initiative 10, with offensive and defensive grenades. Why is the FW one 4x the cost, and I 5?
- I firmly believe deepstriking is VERY strong, and even if they dont arrive until late, they come automatically 5th turn. This is where you put troops on objectives.
- Special character to make ALL invulnerable saves re-rollable within a radius. I personally think the normal version of him is better... for cheaper.
- Soulgrinder is a tougher defiler, with a very nice selection of weapons. I would actually say this guy is roughly balanced for what he can do.
- Masque can alter the movement of 3 enemy units a turn.
- Flamers are more expensive with only 1W now, BUT they ROAST anything the go near. AND they are now jump infantry.
- Screamers are awesome for jetbiking meltabombs.
- Changeling to make you shoot your own units.

And despite GW trying to push CSM to go mixed god to have a strong list, I firmly believe that Pure god Demons are still really strong.

Alessander
17-01-2010, 02:42
I'm thinking that a player winning a campaign with Daemons is either:

playing with the codex at the end of 4th ed, where rending was much more powerful, any units could hold an objective and vechicles were more delicate
getting the daemon rules confused withe CSM Summoned Daemons and allowing them to assault after Deep Striking
Playing a Planetstrike Campaign, where attacking Daemons are murder (since they can DS and assault)


Otherwise, the fact that they rely so heavily on luck just hurts them in the competitive scene. The fact that 1/3 of your games end up with your deployment being completely screwed hurts them big time, and Daemons have a massive problem against Mech in 5th ed.

Bloodspeaker
17-01-2010, 02:42
As a longtime daemon player i'm happy to see that the general consensus is that daemons are not overpowered and from my experience i believe that they are actually a gimped army not even mid tier and certainly not fun to play even in friendly games, due to their stupid daemonic assault rules, general randomness and their difficulty to deal with vehicles effectively.
I really hope they get a new codex before 6th like the new ones that were released from marines, onwards

SilentTraveler
17-01-2010, 03:24
They aren't broken. What causes people to think they are broken is that they don't play like any other army and when they try playing with standard tactics they get murdered.

As an example. An inexperienced player might do something like deploy a large unit of Dire Avengers in a ruin and watch as a 3 man flamer squad drops next to them and kills them all. Some players will never get past the 'OMG Broken' phase while other players will see that same flamer squad as being a fragile shock squad and start to adjust accordingly. Once that happens the effectiveness of his flamer units start to drop quite a bit...often to the point that things like Bloodcrushers and Fiends start becoming better overall choices.

shin'keiro
17-01-2010, 04:30
Broken - i dont think so.... now 'nids on the other hand haha

Vaktathi
17-01-2010, 07:31
The only build I've come across that I found abusive was wound allocation gaming bloodcrushers with fateweaver and flying MC's, as nothing dies, other than that, the army is so prone to luck and randomness that it is just too difficult to be truly cheesy with them. If the luck goes their way, they can be brutal, but they are just too variable and inconsistent to really be as scary as orks, eldar, guard, CSM's or space wolves.

Anything messing with reserves can really hurt, and armies that are heavy on blast weapons can really crack the army very quickly if they don't do well on run moves after deep striking. Their main saving grace is the rock hard MC's, plaguebearers, and bloodcrushers, but the low saves, even though invulnerable,means casualties quickly mount up.

shabbadoo
17-01-2010, 08:08
Daemons are broken?

This gaming group. They ride the short bus to school, yes?

I would assume that Deathwing are also not going to be allowed either, as the army deploys similarly to Daemons, the entire army has 2+/5+ saves, and every single model is armed with some sort of weapon that either shoots on the move out to 24" or farther and has a close combat weapon that ignore armor saves and re-rolls to wound, stuns an opponent, rips through AV values better, and/or is capable of inflicting Instant Death. Then there are the Venerable Dreadnoughts and those 14 all-around AV Land Raiders. Total cheesy bastards with their 23-24 models in a 1,500 point army. :p

Now, if Deepstrike were not so random and not so very often detrimental, Daemons would be a much more challenging army to face. Daemons are currently broken in a bad way, not a good way.

Kalec
17-01-2010, 08:10
Daemons are fundamentally broken, not overpowered, but broken, because of their absurd deployment system.

Half the battle hinges on which half you roll for, and your scatter dice. It just isn't fun.

Flamers, however, are overpowered. So very, very, very overpowered.

Thud
17-01-2010, 08:36
then you need to tell the world how you manage to kill him so easy. ive sent whole armys agaist him and then slowley been eatern by crushers. if he doesnt feel like failing a save then i cant see any way past him

Then allow me to help you out:

Inquisitor with Psycannon. Game over.


Also; I think your problem stems from poor target priority. Why are you sending whole armies after Fateweaver? He's not a scoring unit. Ignore him. Take objectives. Win game.

Are you playing Annihilation? Star off by killing anything not within his little bubble and just drive away from those silly Bloodcrushers.


Daemons are broken?

This gaming group. They ride the short bus to school, yes?

Beautiful! :D


The main problem for Daemons is not just that they all deep strike in. It's that it's a close combat army that deep strikes in. And then they stand around like fools while two things are happening; 1. they're being shot to hell, and 2. the things they intended to kill simply drive away in their flashy cars.

TheShadowCow
17-01-2010, 10:17
Flamers, however, are overpowered. So very, very, very overpowered.

How so? Yes what they shoot at dies horribly (or amusingly, depending on your point of view), but they're not exactly difficult to get rid of, and if they don't get a blast off on the turn they land then they can easily be wiped out before they can do anything at all.

Darnok
17-01-2010, 13:02
The main problem for Daemons is not just that they all deep strike in. It's that it's a close combat army that deep strikes in. And then they stand around like fools while two things are happening; 1. they're being shot to hell, and 2. the things they intended to kill simply drive away in their flashy cars.

This.

Apart from a few flying models the Daemons are just too slow after they're down. DS does help, but after that we're stuck with no transports at all, meaning we have to walk around. Apart from Nids and Crons every army has its associated bus service, and in a competitive environment this can be (and usually is) a Daemons death sentence.

druchii
17-01-2010, 22:12
This.

Apart from a few flying models the Daemons are just too slow after they're down. DS does help, but after that we're stuck with no transports at all, meaning we have to walk around. Apart from Nids and Crons every army has its associated bus service, and in a competitive environment this can be (and usually is) a Daemons death sentence.

I've always said that demons are initially a very "fast" army, but after the initial deepstrike the usual demon army "slows down" a lot.

Especially compared to armies like mech tau and eldar who are constantly moving just under 12" and blasting away.

Sure we have units like fiends and flying monsters, but these guys are expensive and in competitive slots-and the majority of our units need to be in BTB contact to really do much to your opponent (other than give him something to shoot at...). So this is problematic when there are a lot of transports on the table, which of course sucks because there are a lot of armies that load up in transports these days...

d

jsullivanlaw
19-01-2010, 23:33
Daemons are definitely broken in 40k. Why else would they have created such anti daemon units/wargar as Null Zone (reroll all invulnerable saves), Masters of the Fleet (-1 to reserves), Mystics (pieplate each of your units when it arrives), Jaws of the World Wolf (because we hate the Great Unclean One), SW force weapons (+2 to wound daemons, just to be mean), Sanctuary (autowin), or in apocolypse, Warp Distruptor (why did you bother wasting your day?). I'm sure it will get even worse as more codexes come out. I shelved my Daemons for Dark Eldar since I got tired of losing just because of some stupid piece of wargar that probably costs 30 points or less. Some stuff in the daemon codex is admittedly undercosted, at least until the 5th edition codexes came out. Tell me that Daemonettes are underpriced...I dare you. Your group needs to ban imperial guard...

Darnok
19-01-2010, 23:43
Daemons are definitely broken in 40k. Why else would they have created such anti daemon units/wargar as Null Zone (reroll all invulnerable saves), Masters of the Fleet (-1 to reserves), Mystics (pieplate each of your units when it arrives), Jaws of the World Wolf (because we hate the Great Unclean One), SW force weapons (+2 to wound daemons, just to be mean), Sanctuary (autowin), or in apocolypse, Warp Distruptor (why did you bother wasting your day?). I'm sure it will get even worse as more codexes come out.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: because Daemons are broken in WHF, they need to be nerfed in 40K. This must be the line of GWs thinking, obviously. There is just no other way to explain this stuff.

druchii
20-01-2010, 00:12
I've said it before, I'll say it again: because Daemons are broken in WHF, they need to be nerfed in 40K. This must be the line of GWs thinking, obviously. There is just no other way to explain this stuff.

Well, "this stuff" also has a VERY good place agaisnt other armies in the game (save the "wound demons on 2+" runic weapons, but mark my words, that's how all force weapons will be I bet!). Mystics are amazing (oh hey, terminators "EAT PLASMACANNON!" or drop pods or assault marines, or Trygons, whatever). Masters of the fleet, Jaws and Null Zone all have applications similar.

Unfortunately these things also happen to be what demons predicate their armies on. Again, something every player knew getting into the army! You can't help but notice how different the army is when you pick up the book, and saying that an army with a mystic, an officer of the fleet AND whatver else is like saying that it's unfair when an army spamming plasma deals with footslogging marines or nidzilla. It's just the way it is.

d

big squig
20-01-2010, 00:17
Overpowered? I think they're the weakest 5th we army in the game.

Darnok
20-01-2010, 00:27
Unfortunately these things also happen to be what demons predicate their armies on. Again, something every player knew getting into the army!

To be honest, when I got Daemons, none of these things existed. ;)

Other than that, I agree on your post. Must be my highly subjective view on Daemons. It just feels like they get beat a lot more with the nerf stick, it feels like every new codex has something to purposefully hamper them. For example that whole "your DS doesn't work the way it did" hurts me a lot more than others. I know other armies get new challenges as well, but it still feels wrong.

druchii
20-01-2010, 00:32
To be honest, when I got Daemons, none of these things existed. ;)

Other than that, I agree on your post. Must be my highly subjective view on Daemons. It just feels like they get beat a lot more with the nerf stick, it feels like every new codex has something to purposefully hamper them. For example that whole "your DS doesn't work the way it did" hurts me a lot more than others. I know other armies get new challenges as well, but it still feels wrong.

It sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to, but: deal with it.

I've been playing demons since they were released, and as soon as I picked up the book I thought to myself "man this whole DS thing is cool! Oh, and it's also different...and one dimensional..that means if people have good anti-DS tactica/stuff I'm boned...oh and hey look-no armor!"

I still contend that we all know what we were getting into when we picked up the demon book. Sort of like Marine players whining that ap1-3 weaponry unfairly limits one of their advantages. It does, but they knew that power armor was one of their army's staples.

GW can't honestly limit their design choices to "oh man, this really dicks over this army, and completely doesn't touch these guys!", they're good people for putting those options in books.

d

Darnok
20-01-2010, 00:46
It sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to, but: deal with it.

I still agree.

Luckily, my gaming life is not the internet. I just don't ever face those killer-lists WhineSeer seems to be full of. I'm in the hobby for converting, painting and the odd game every now and then, the type with pizza and beer and stuff. And luckily, with Daemons I get lots of all!

To stay on topic: if I ever encounter the situation that my regular gaming buddy comes up with something I just can't cope with - even after trying for a dozen times - we are most likely both bored at that point and leave that certain item at home. After all, this is a social hobby, you can actually talk to the guy(s) on the other side of the board. I still think this is the point the OP (and his gaming group) miss.

Lord Asgul
20-01-2010, 00:59
Isn't the part of losing a match or a few part of the whole gaming experience? I have 40 bloodletters in an apocalypse Chaos army (allied :) ) and my main opponunts are necrons and eldar. I've won and lost against them. I don't care about winning or losing, it's the feeling of the game. It's more fun when your opponunt says "OMG, my scorpion super-heavy just got destroyed by a powerfist armed champion HAHAHAHA" than "oh, you gay, you destroyed my scorpion". Or "hahahaha that monolith just destroyed my havocs". Enjoy the game, derive humour from it. I still have an injoke with some of my gaming buddies about a daemon prince being wounded by a grot.

It sounds like your group is a bunch of sore-losers. Find a new one.

The pestilent 1
20-01-2010, 03:27
Isn't the part of losing a match or a few part of the whole gaming experience?

Haven't you noticed?
On Warseer no one ever loses except when their opponent was cheating and had, like a 72,000 point army at the 1850 tournament, and even then it was a close run thing because they have such Tactical genius that they give Creed a run for his money.

druchii
20-01-2010, 03:40
I still agree.

Luckily, my gaming life is not the internet. I just don't ever face those killer-lists WhineSeer seems to be full of. I'm in the hobby for converting, painting and the odd game every now and then, the type with pizza and beer and stuff. And luckily, with Daemons I get lots of all!

To stay on topic: if I ever encounter the situation that my regular gaming buddy comes up with something I just can't cope with - even after trying for a dozen times - we are most likely both bored at that point and leave that certain item at home. After all, this is a social hobby, you can actually talk to the guy(s) on the other side of the board. I still think this is the point the OP (and his gaming group) miss.

I agree completely. Our group once escalated to the point where when your opponent set down an army you were either boned, or he was boned. We had a DRAMATIC drop off in attendance. We just went out to see movies instead. Same amount of time, more entertaining. Eventually we talked to eachother and started bringing fun lists. And suddenly our group has over 30(!) rotating members because we're the "fun" group in our city.

I'm a huge fan of heavily converted and "counts as" armies and I'm lucky that demons let me get away with this (I played LATD before...so I had high expectations in this regard).


Isn't the part of losing a match or a few part of the whole gaming experience? I have 40 bloodletters in an apocalypse Chaos army (allied :) ) and my main opponunts are necrons and eldar. I've won and lost against them. I don't care about winning or losing, it's the feeling of the game. It's more fun when your opponunt says "OMG, my scorpion super-heavy just got destroyed by a powerfist armed champion HAHAHAHA" than "oh, you gay, you destroyed my scorpion". Or "hahahaha that monolith just destroyed my havocs". Enjoy the game, derive humour from it. I still have an injoke with some of my gaming buddies about a daemon prince being wounded by a grot.

It sounds like your group is a bunch of sore-losers. Find a new one.

Well, I'm all about fun and well fought games. Winning and losing aren't so much the point as is the story...

But when you get trounced by the all mech-all the time-guard army, AGAIN (hey, I could play that army asleep too!) things start to get old. Cool that army+your skill kick the crap out of my army. So lets try something new. Otherwise, why bother wasting my time when the game its self won't be fun, thematic, cool or even fair?

There's "OMG I LOST THAT ARMY IS OVERPOWERED!" and the "Heeeey..soo..that army is a bit abusive..." the two are different and should never be confused.

d

EDIT: In my case I wasn't able to find a new group (with the combination of school, work, girl, friends, hobbies, sports, etc.) so I had to actively change mine-sometimes a good talking to can fix any problem. Sometimes.

Lord-Caerolion
20-01-2010, 04:01
- Tzeentch has straight 4+ in saves through the board
Still not that great, and combat screws them.

- Bloodletters are the same cost as a marine. They gain over the marine +1S, +1WS, furious charge, powerweapon, fearless... marine beats this with bolter and powerarmour. I know what stats i want...
Who also have the only T3 and a 5+ save. Any focussed shooting will decimate the unit. Combined with the fact that they have no offensive grenades, just stick your units in cover.

- Skulltakers statline gets boosted by his steed. It doesn't in fantasy.
Maybe because the two games have different mechanics? Are Rough Riders broken too, because the horses change the profile of the Guardsmen, whereas they don't in Fantasy? All Psykers are broken too, because I don't get any Dispel Dice! How cheesy is that!

- Keeper of Secrets initiative 10, with offensive and defensive grenades. Why is the FW one 4x the cost, and I 5?
Because the FW KoS was created long before the Daemons codex was created? Admittedly, it can still use a boost, but you can't blame them for something that wasn't even written. So, unless you want the stadard KoS to be more than 666 points, don't worry about it.

- I firmly believe deepstriking is VERY strong, and even if they dont arrive until late, they come automatically 5th turn. This is where you put troops on objectives.
The Daemon army has to be split in half before deployment. Now, to win a game, you'll want more than a single unit of Troops to deploy onto an uncontested objective in the 5th turn. Aside from an Officer in the Fleet, how do you manage to consistently hold them back from deploying?

- Special character to make ALL invulnerable saves re-rollable within a radius. I personally think the normal version of him is better... for cheaper.
And who stands a chance of vanishing if he takes a wound. Throw in a psycannon Inquisitor, and you're good.

- Masque can alter the movement of 3 enemy units a turn.
Who, not being an Independant Character, can't be hidden inside a unit, so is essentially a 2W, T3 unit with a 5++ save. Any shooting unit worth its name should be able to gun that down.

druchii
20-01-2010, 04:48
Still not that great, and combat screws them.

Who also have the only T3 and a 5+ save. Any focussed shooting will decimate the unit. Combined with the fact that they have no offensive grenades, just stick your units in cover.

Maybe because the two games have different mechanics? Are Rough Riders broken too, because the horses change the profile of the Guardsmen, whereas they don't in Fantasy? All Psykers are broken too, because I don't get any Dispel Dice! How cheesy is that!

Because the FW KoS was created long before the Daemons codex was created? Admittedly, it can still use a boost, but you can't blame them for something that wasn't even written. So, unless you want the stadard KoS to be more than 666 points, don't worry about it.

The Daemon army has to be split in half before deployment. Now, to win a game, you'll want more than a single unit of Troops to deploy onto an uncontested objective in the 5th turn. Aside from an Officer in the Fleet, how do you manage to consistently hold them back from deploying?

And who stands a chance of vanishing if he takes a wound. Throw in a psycannon Inquisitor, and you're good.

Who, not being an Independant Character, can't be hidden inside a unit, so is essentially a 2W, T3 unit with a 5++ save. Any shooting unit worth its name should be able to gun that down.

Apparently I'm the Pedantic Demon, but Bloodletters are t4. Doesn't change your initial statement much, but the difference IS fair game.

d

Lord-Caerolion
20-01-2010, 07:03
Apparently I'm the Pedantic Demon, but Bloodletters are t4. Doesn't change your initial statement much, but the difference IS fair game.

d

Ah, that's what I get for relying on memory. Or maybe it's just the Slaaneshi in me trying to downplay my rival.

Nurgling Chieftain
20-01-2010, 07:17
Let's see. Bloodcrushers, some Princes, and Seekers are fantastic for their points. Fateweaver is potentially game-changing, but unreliable (the first time I played him, I lost him to 6 firewarriors with pulse rifles). The rest of the non-troops are okay for their points. (In practice, Flamers aren't nearly as great as people make them out to be, unless, of course, your opponent groups their units up tight near pre-existing icons or you just never roll scatter.) The scoring units are generally sub-par for their points, which really hurts as you need them to, well, score.

Mid-tier is about right. Somewhat abuseable, but still not reliable. On a good game daemons can absolutely hammer their opponent with total ruthlessness. Other games you lose key units to mishaps right off the bat...

Lord Solar Plexus
20-01-2010, 10:09
What the Chieftain said. Fatey can be a bitch, BC's kick ass, the Elite & HQ sections are very decent, Soulgrinders have huge potential. I only disagree on troops - Plaguebearers are THE objective holders and KP deniers in one. You need a very serious effort to dislodge them from an objective (yes, tank-shocking isn't always possible).

Nurgling Chieftain
20-01-2010, 17:28
Plaguebearers are adequate at sitting on an objective, but that's really all they've got. No mobility. One attack in HtH, which does have S4 poison but no way of ignoring armor or FNP. No shooting attack whatsoever. Color me unimpressed. Ideally, objective sitters should have reasonably long range weapons, so they're not just sitting out the fight. And when all's said and done, they're reasonably tough, not exceptionally tough. The reality is that even mediocre close combat units in their price range (say, assault marines) will beat them - albeit eventually. And those units come with jetpacks rather than slow and purposeful!

Plaguebearers are daemons' best objective sitters not because they're especially good at it, but because daemons don't really have another option except maybe horrors, which can at least shoot...

jsullivanlaw
21-01-2010, 18:03
Well, "this stuff" also has a VERY good place agaisnt other armies in the game (save the "wound demons on 2+" runic weapons, but mark my words, that's how all force weapons will be I bet!). Mystics are amazing (oh hey, terminators "EAT PLASMACANNON!" or drop pods or assault marines, or Trygons, whatever). Masters of the fleet, Jaws and Null Zone all have applications similar.

Unfortunately these things also happen to be what demons predicate their armies on. Again, something every player knew getting into the army! You can't help but notice how different the army is when you pick up the book, and saying that an army with a mystic, an officer of the fleet AND whatver else is like saying that it's unfair when an army spamming plasma deals with footslogging marines or nidzilla. It's just the way it is.

d

These things do have a place against other armies but i cannot agree that GW cannot be limited in their design application. 1st they write a daemon codex and release it. Then, they start adding things to new codexes that make it very difficult on the daemon player. They could have simply added something into the daemon codex that would prevent negatives to reserves, added an immunity to mystics, or give the daemons armor saves equal to their invuln saves so that null zone doesn't turn a game into a joke. But they didn't. They could have added some sort of defensive upgrades at least just to let the army play as normal... Daemonic assault is enough of a disadvantage on its own. Even from a fluff perspective, how the hell is a master of the fleet going to hold back a daemonic assault?

Grax
21-01-2010, 18:36
Chaos Daemons are not broken. Some even consider them underpowered, but I use them and find that they're very powerful when used right, and by right I mean 'carefully'.

Many people don't consider them 'competitive' because there's too much chance involved with their deep striking. Personally, I think randomness is inevitable in any game with so many dice rolls, so it's best just to learn to get used to it.

Despite seeming quite aggressive, the secret to success with chaos daemons is being careful with them, to keep them alive until they reach the assault. Once in close combat, Chaos Daemons are the most powerful army in the game, point for point. Until they get there, you have to deep strike them without mishapping, avoid concentrated enemy fire (3+ is the best save in the army), and peel open the enemy transports to get at the tasty infantry units hiding inside.

From experience, I've found the secret to using them is to deep strike as carefully as possible (a good distance away from enemy units and impassible terrain, 8-9in at least), use plenty of fast units to make up for the fact you didn't deep strike too close, choose upgrades that make your units more durable and versatile, fill your army with as many extra bolts as you can, set up your waves to best counter your opponent's army (remember, you don't have to set the waves up until your half of turn 1), and use one chaos icon in each wave.

primarch16
21-01-2010, 19:14
Plaguebearers are adequate at sitting on an objective, but that's really all they've got. No mobility. One attack in HtH, which does have S4 poison but no way of ignoring armor or FNP. No shooting attack whatsoever. Color me unimpressed. Ideally, objective sitters should have reasonably long range weapons, so they're not just sitting out the fight. And when all's said and done, they're reasonably tough, not exceptionally tough. The reality is that even mediocre close combat units in their price range (say, assault marines) will beat them - albeit eventually. And those units come with jetpacks rather than slow and purposeful!

Plaguebearers are daemons' best objective sitters not because they're especially good at it, but because daemons don't really have another option except maybe horrors, which can at least shoot...

Aye but plaguebearers can actually survive a charge and bog an enemy unit down for a little while until some back up arrives, a guard infantry platoon may have some firepower but the second they get charged its more or less game over. Leave killing stuff to the HQ, Elites and Heavy support. Or take a few bloodletters if you want to see stuff dead with you're troops.

kendaop
21-01-2010, 19:32
I think it's funny when people try to peg Daemons as being "Bad" or "Good". I think it's the most varied codex there is, in terms of capable army builds. So many of their units are great at one thing but terrible at other things. Then, when you combine that with the ability to mix and match these units by pretty much any proportion that you want, the possible army builds are much more unique. Have you fought against plaguebearer spam or bloodletter spam? They play completely different. For example, plaguebearer spam may only kill five models per game, but win by sitting on all the objectives whereas bloodletter spam can kill almost your entire army but lose because they run out of troops. IMO, Daemons are too Rock-Paper-Scissors-ish to say they are "good" or "bad".

Dexter099
22-01-2010, 04:05
Seriously, guys, maybe learning that people are talking about FANTASY demons and not 40K demons would help.

aaronaleong
22-01-2010, 13:42
i concur. fateweaver has a colossal effect, but he's toughness five with three wounds that have difficulty claiming cover saves.

He doesnt need cover saves. He has a 3+ invol re-roll.

I agree with the majority of everyone on this thread. A daemon army played right can destroy any army. There is a part of luck, but any of the armies depend on some portion of luck. (Dice) In my gaming area, I am one of the only players that has figured out how to beat them consistantly. I have seen new players give up the game because of what Daemons in 40K do to them. The fact is in my opinion..:

*Daemons are very powerful.
*If they get average rolls and set a good list they become more powerful.
*In a tournament setting where most opponents make an all comers list, Daemons have an advantage.
*You have to play Daemons differently than any other army.
*GW has protected them by not publishing a FAQ but removing it after a few weeks and refusing to put it back on their website.
*The "gifts" which are very powerful can be put in combinations that cause massive havok!
*The flamers are the most ridiculous unit in the game. (They cost less than obliterators and kill a lot more)
*NO ARMY has the ability to make the Fateweaver death list.

In conclusion,

Players now these days have to account for daemon armies. When I started playing 40K I became one of the better players in my area with space marines. The top player played chaos space marines and used to wipe everyone up and win all the local tournaments. I started challenging him and beating him consitantly with the different variances I used to be able to give to make my space marines better. When Chaos Daemons came out, he switched over and started wiping everyone up again. I then turned to Daemon Hunters mixed with Guard and Space Marines to be competitive. Now with Space wolves I wipe him up every game.

The point to the whole story is that if you don't particularly learn the army and how to beat it, you will constantly loose. Unless of course he has bad luck. But a daemon player only has to have average luck to win.

My opinion only.