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Once Bitten
16-01-2010, 15:25
Two questions came up last night.

1) OK, this first one makes me feel a little dumb ... but ... What makes something a monster? Specifically, I always assumed that a Vargulf would be considered a monster. When my VC opponent said it wasn't, I realized that I didn't have a good reason why I thought it was - except perhaps because it seemed like one. I looked up the monster section in the BRB and it didn't define what constitutes a 'monster.' Is a hydra a monster? A treeman? I'm sure I'm just being blind to something obvious...

2) I read recently that unit champions did not count as rank & file troops for the 'look out, sir' rule. However, I was questioned about it last night and could not find a reference to support my claim. I don't care how this rule works, but would like to be able to support one way or the other.

Thanks for your help!

Malorian
16-01-2010, 15:43
1). Base size. If it's on a monster base then it is a monster. Although you also have to check the books as some actually are different than what you would think (like fell bats), but the vargulf isn't one of these. It's a monster. In fact if you look at the back of the VC book he is under the Monsters section ;)

2) Not 100% sure here but I've always played it that he counted... *checks book* I see nothing saying otherwise.

EldarBishop
16-01-2010, 16:50
Not sure what you are asking in question 2...

Champions do not count as models for purposes if you can make a LoS! roll. (ie. you need 5 normal models, though muso/std count towards the 5 models) (Can not find a specific reference, though based solely on the fact that the Champion gets his own LoS! roll, I would think that he doesn't contribute to 5 r-n-f models)

Also, Champions can benefit from LoS! roll (Ref: last point on page 81, BRB)

Refs forthcoming...

brynolf
16-01-2010, 16:53
2) I think it's in the FAQ. It is hinted in the Core book since champions are treated like characters in most respects, but I believe it was clarified in one of the core FAQs. And AFAI you're right, they don't count as RnF for the purposes of 'Look out sir'.

Nurgling Chieftain
16-01-2010, 18:38
If champions counted as RnF towards LoS, you'd have the bizarre situation where the champion gives himself a LoS: "Look Out, Me!" :p

Godgolden
16-01-2010, 19:21
question 1: i had the same question hehe

question 2: champion doesnt count toward RnF, it also means you allocate hits if theres 4 RnF from shooting, all the infos contained in character rules and which ones the champion follows, its very back and forth in the book sadly.

(also if your units alpha striked by a particular good volly and the unit had enough RNF he cant be touched lol, really wish champions that were alone US1 became psudo characters)

Yrrdead
16-01-2010, 19:37
1. Hmm that is an interesting one, If it looks like a monster, fights like a monster and moves like a monster it must be a monster. I play VC and I would consider a Varghulf a "monster" in that every unit in the game falls under a few classifications.

Characters, Infantry, Cavalry, Monsters. Chariots, Mounts, War Machines.

If you take a look at the Reference sheet in the last page of the VC book you will see under the heading "Monsters" you have two listings ; Corpse Cart and Varghulf.



2. Brynolf is correct it is in the BRB FAQ part 2 6th page First Paragraph.

Once Bitten
16-01-2010, 21:08
Thank you!

Necromancy Black
16-01-2010, 23:59
Basically The books states two things in regards to the second questions:

The first part (I think in the shooting section) has the words "Rank'n'File (i.e. non-character)" basically defining rank and file models as being no characters.

The second part is in the champion rules, where it much more clearly states they count as characters for all purposes of shooting. Note, that it is indeed all purposes.

The FAQ then confirms what this means. The final result? No more unit champions in my small, elite knight units with characters.

sulla
17-01-2010, 01:17
1. Hmm that is an interesting one, If it looks like a monster, fights like a monster and moves like a monster it must be a monster..

...Unless it's one of GW's nebulous 'Monstrous characters';)

Nurgling Chieftain
17-01-2010, 01:20
The Warshrine actually refers to Dragon Ogres as "monstrous infantry". :D

Red Metal
17-01-2010, 01:49
1). Base size. If it's on a monster base then it is a monster. Although you also have to check the books as some actually are different than what you would think (like fell bats), but the vargulf isn't one of these. It's a monster. In fact if you look at the back of the VC book he is under the Monsters section ;)

Base size is not an accurate assessment of a model type. Figures like the Green Knight, Fey Entrantress, Thorgrim, and Orion all appear on large bases, but are obviously not monsters.

Basically, the best information would appear in the respective army book.

Necromancy Black
17-01-2010, 06:27
Basically, the best information would appear in the respective army book.

Commonly, this will mean no information is provided :p

Griefbringer
17-01-2010, 09:12
Especially back in the 6th edition, most of the army books were very bad in defining what things were monsters, and there have been some pretty endless discussions on topic on Warseer.

stripsteak
17-01-2010, 21:24
the only things consistently designated in army books are chariots. everything else you are generally left to figure out.

Dutch_Digger
18-01-2010, 11:38
Base size is not an accurate assessment of a model type. Figures like the Green Knight, Fey Entrantress, Thorgrim, and Orion all appear on large bases, but are obviously not monsters.

Basically, the best information would appear in the respective army book.

perhaps special characters make anexception to the list