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Getifa Ubazza
17-01-2010, 00:20
Not sure if anyone has done this, But what would happen if 2 equally experienced Tyranid players, one using the 4th edition codex and one using the 5th edition codex played each other using 1500pt, BALANCED LISTS? How close would the result of the game be?

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 01:07
New nidz would roll the old nidz since a Balanced Nid list would imply not spamming Carnifexes and thus the 4th ed Nid player would be stuck taking utter garbage for troops. If the 4th ed Nid player Carni spammed then he would still lose due to the overwhelming firepower of new nid shooting and the fact that Nid troops are pretty good now, even at killing High T models due to poison or lots of attacks choose your flavour.

azimaith
17-01-2010, 03:02
Depends, new nids have alot of tools to demolish old nids with. Old nids would have their MCs destroyed by toxin gaunts and their broods smushed by the sheer number of templates available.

It might be different depending on which side is shooting though. The new nids are considerably slower as a horde than the old nids were and they function differently (hormagaunts are bullet catchers now, termagants are skirmishers)

Murphey
17-01-2010, 03:13
Actually found that out today. Old Nids rolled over the new Nids. Hand's down.

Lack of Frag grenades hurts new Nidz like you wouldn't believe. Also, having Implant Attack on Fex's and Hive Tyrants meant that New Nid's MCs died like no one's business.

Also, the old venom Cannon was a destroyer (when used by a Hive Tyrant), as it simply IDed warriors left and right. Pierced armor (the Hive Tyrant in question was extremely tall, built like a floating Zoathrope) thus the warriors couldn't get screened easily.

It was honestly a shut out.

~Murphey

Bolter Bait
17-01-2010, 03:25
New nidz would roll the old nidz since a Balanced Nid list would imply not spamming Carnifexes and thus the 4th ed Nid player would be stuck taking utter garbage for troops. If the 4th ed Nid player Carni spammed then he would still lose due to the overwhelming firepower of new nid shooting and the fact that Nid troops are pretty good now, even at killing High T models due to poison or lots of attacks choose your flavour.I enjoy your subtle implication that using more than 3 Carnifexes is not balanced and thus the implicated insult that all Nidzilla players are cheesemongers. Truly, you bring a world of insight to this discussion. :angel:

Honestly, I'm not sure which would come out on top. I've not enough experience with the new codex seeing as I've only just got my claws on it Friday. Many things would nullify each other. Old SitW would trump new SitW from further away but once the new SitW moved close enough, old Nids would suffer.

However, Murphey does bring nice insight. I had forgotten about the lack of frags on nearly everything and if the old Nids cling to cover, they're going to have the advantage once combat is closed.

owen matthew
17-01-2010, 03:46
Honestly, the old book. Just stronger, much much more for your points. I am impressed with alot of the new book (reading all day) but the points are out the window on the strongest stuff. My 1500 had 7MC (flyrant and lots of dakka with two snipers),6 warriors shooting, 60 spines, and 3 ravenors. It was pretty ballanced, and VERY overwhelmiing for many, many armies. I honestly think that lean 4th approach would trump the ultra expensive 5th builds I have seen.

I think the new book can design some pretty neat looking eliet, low-model count specialized builds for anti meq, but whatever. I still say 4th.

darks23
17-01-2010, 03:48
Actually found that out today. Old Nids rolled over the new Nids. Hand's down.

Lack of Frag grenades hurts new Nidz like you wouldn't believe. Also, having Implant Attack on Fex's and Hive Tyrants meant that New Nid's MCs died like no one's business.

Also, the old venom Cannon was a destroyer (when used by a Hive Tyrant), as it simply IDed warriors left and right. Pierced armor (the Hive Tyrant in question was extremely tall, built like a floating Zoathrope) thus the warriors couldn't get screened easily.

It was honestly a shut out.

~Murphey

Um this to me sounds pretty shady. First off how many games did the person with the new nids play? Secondly and this deals more with the topic than your post what kind of army was both players using? 3rd it seems that the 4th ed. Nids were pretty outfitted aginst the new Nids. I mean implant attacks on canifexes! really!

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 03:53
Mr. Bait I fear you misunderstand completely a balanced list doesn't mean it isn't cheesy, far from it, what it does mean though is that you've built a list that can take on all comers. Nidzilla was powerful against some enemies but got completely destroyed by others, why? because it wasn't balanced it couldn't deal with all enemies like a balanced list can. My point was a Balanced List, one that was designed to take on all foes (You know the kind of list the OP specifically asked for), would include other units and thus, since those units were so ****** (apparently,from what Nid players have told the community all these years) they would get owned by the new Nidz.

Personally I do believe that taking multiple Carnifexes was Cheesy not because it won a lot of games but because most of the players who took it did so because they knew that when they did come up against an enemy that they could beat it would be a complete slaughter in their favor. If they took it for fluff reasons AWESOME :D They'll be happy to take them again in this codex as well.

Also, on the issue of grenades new Nidz have much better shooting, compared between little gribblies anyway, and thus could just shoot those wall huggers like it was nobodies business. Even if said huggers then used that chance to take the charge then oops they left cover and can get countercharged by superiour troops.

On a seperate note although I find this topic incredibly amusing I only hope that Nid players don't use it as an excuse to say that their new codex is worse because it can't handle its old self since matchups like that were never meant to occur, and rarely do.

CapnBob
17-01-2010, 04:16
I'd have to play a bunch of games to be certain, but I suspect the best list I could build in 4th would eviscerate the best list I could build in 5th. 5th has some cool stuff, but the new instinctive behavior and synapse rules make it easier to lose control of your army and far harder to regain control of it. Shooting weapons were just nastier all around in 4th, the loss of living ammo just turns termagants back into cheap meatshields. New hormagaunts beefed up would equal or beat the old ones once combat started, but the extra range on the old hormagaunts means they get to decide when and where the combat happens. Tyrants are nastier in 5th though. Hm.

Overall, I'd think 4th's firepower superiority, more balanced assault options and better overall army control would win out but I'd have to test it properly to be certain.

naloth
17-01-2010, 04:18
Also, on the issue of grenades new Nidz have much better shooting, compared between little gribblies anyway, and thus could just shoot those wall huggers like it was nobodies business. Even if said huggers then used that chance to take the charge then oops they left cover and can get countercharged by superiour troops.


The old 'nids have better shooting. The generally have more volume, range, and S. A 'fex with BS/VC puts out a S8 template and 2 S10 shots for the cost of a unit of Hive Guard. Likewise, the old Warriors will have multiple S6 blasts 24" away and a 36" pie or two 36" S7 shots where the new guys are mostly limited to 18". Likewise Dakka Tyrants/Fex put out the similar firepower as the new 'dex at half the cost (of course most everyone agrees they needed nerfed). Of course since the new army has so much that can be ID'ed, the VC will be nicer on the Hive Tyrant. Much of the new shooting is either close up (within 18") or against Tanks. Taking Zoanthropes with their shiny new S10 Lance won't help against stuff that's got EW. Likewise Hive Guard have AP4 so most MCs will laugh off the shots.

The new army is generally better in CC but will suffer if it has to attack through cover. Also many of the new features won't be useful against the old 'nids since they have EW.

Given that most players have been using the old army <and> the design changes wouldn't help against what the old army was like, I really don't have a problem believing that the old list will generally trump the new list.

azimaith
17-01-2010, 04:39
The old 'nids have better shooting. The generally have more volume, range, and S. A 'fex with BS/VC puts out a S8 template and 4 S10 shots for the cost of a unit of Hive Guard.

Two s10 shots.



Likewise, the old Warriors will have multiple S6 blasts 24" away and a 36" pie or two 36" S7 shots where the new guys are mostly limited to 18". Likewise Dakka Tyrants/Fex put out the similar firepower as the new 'dex at half the cost (of course most everyone agrees they needed nerfed). Of course since the new army has so much that can be ID'ed, the VC will be nicer on the Hive Tyrant. Much of the new shooting is either close up (within 18") or against Tanks. Taking Zoanthropes with their shiny new S10 Lance won't help against stuff that's got EW. Likewise Hive Guard have AP4 so most MCs will laugh off the shots.

The problem with zoanthropes isn't EW, its that they get assaulted. Anyone who uses drop zoanthropes is going to learn quickly they get one shot before enemies pile onto them.

Hive guard aren't there to shoot MEQs/MCs, they're there to blast their rhino apart so they have to get out. If I run into an MC he's going to want to face anything in my army but by hormagaunts.

naloth
17-01-2010, 05:38
Two s10 shots.
Yes, don't know why I put 4. Fixed it.



The problem with zoanthropes isn't EW, its that they get assaulted. Anyone who uses drop zoanthropes is going to learn quickly they get one shot before enemies pile onto them.

Hive guard aren't there to shoot MEQs/MCs, they're there to blast their rhino apart so they have to get out.
While I don't disagree it just emphasises other reasons why they aren't good against the old 'nids.



If I run into an MC he's going to want to face anything in my army but by hormagaunts.
Given the number of plates I usually brought to the table, I wouldn't be that worried about Hormagaunts. Between blasts, pies, and dakka there wouldn't be much of a threat.

While it doesn't prove much, my guess is that the old 'nid codex has the tools to perform very well against the new codex.

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 05:56
I don't know guys I think the pyrovore would be a happy bug in this match up :D and the Mawloc would eat up, literally, all those poorly costed and underpowered little gribblies plus shooty warriors. Again though I stand by that if both were balanced lists I think the New Nidz would have the tactical advantage due to DSing units, better Psychic powers, and just an overall increase in killyness.

TheShadowCow
17-01-2010, 10:24
Anything could hhappen because a) this is a game of chance, b) there is a strong random element.

I refuse to accept that someone is daft enough to decale Book A > Book B purely on one or two games.

Maybe after months of vigorous playtesting and varied use of lists?

Vaktathi
17-01-2010, 11:07
Actually found that out today. Old Nids rolled over the new Nids. Hand's down.

Lack of Frag grenades hurts new Nidz like you wouldn't believe. Also, having Implant Attack on Fex's and Hive Tyrants meant that New Nid's MCs died like no one's business.

Also, the old venom Cannon was a destroyer (when used by a Hive Tyrant), as it simply IDed warriors left and right. Pierced armor (the Hive Tyrant in question was extremely tall, built like a floating Zoathrope) thus the warriors couldn't get screened easily.

It was honestly a shut out.

~MurpheyI'm not trying to be offensive, but it sounds like someone tailored a 4E codex list to defeat a 5E codex list with a big unit that was modeled for advantage.

Radium
17-01-2010, 11:26
Anything could hhappen because a) this is a game of chance, b) there is a strong random element.

I refuse to accept that someone is daft enough to decale Book A > Book B purely on one or two games.

Maybe after months of vigorous playtesting and varied use of lists?

Exactly.

And with all the changes the new book brought, people will need time to learn to play the new army. They can't just play it as if it were 4th ed nids.
Try this again in about 6 months.

Raven Down
17-01-2010, 11:49
Exactly.

And with all the changes the new book brought, people will need time to learn to play the new army. They can't just play it as if it were 4th ed nids.
Try this again in about 6 months.

QFT,

Once the hub-bub calms down and people get back into the rythm of hyping up the next release (Blood Angels) the nids will begin to develop and their strengths and weakness can be found

Getifa Ubazza
17-01-2010, 11:53
You know what? For once, Warseers have taken a subject like this and actually seem to be discussing it in an adult way. I was very worried about posting this question, as I half expected to come back to a locked thread and more warning points under my name.

I'm very proud of you guys. Please keep it up.

@Radium: I agree, it would be very interesting to ask this question again in around 6 months. That goes for any codex I think.

itcamefromthedeep
17-01-2010, 14:20
I'm not trying to be offensive, but it sounds like someone tailored a 4E codex list to defeat a 5E codex list with a big unit that was modeled for advantage.
Modeling a Hive Tyrant high up on the base is a terrible idea. Hive Tyrants need to get cover saves more than it needs to deny them to the enemy.

It could have had Tyrant Guard to help with that, but those models can and do die.

We don't know if the two lists were tailored to each other. Both players may have had a chance to tailor their lists. It does sound as if the 4e one was tailored because Implant Attack is unheard of on a Carnifex. Even when tailoring to Tyranids it's not such a good idea.

I can believe that 4e Tyranids can pull of a convincing win in that fight. 5e Tyranids hate little more than to see a Boomfex or three on the other side of the table.


And with all the changes the new book brought, people will need time to learn to play the new army. They can't just play it as if it were 4th ed nids.
Yes you can. I have. For my 5e games I traded out my two Carnifexes and my fire support Hive Tyrant for Zoanthropes, Hive Guard and Biovores. A brood of Genestealers dropped out to fund the increase in price on my Hive Tyrant and Guard. The list played very much the same. The fire support came in a different shape, but that's about it.

Walk up the table and shoot while Genestealers outflank. Smash what's left when you get there. Same drill, different numbers.

Radium
17-01-2010, 14:22
Yes you can. I have. For my 5e games I traded out my two Carnifexes and my fire support Hive Tyrant for Zoanthropes, Hive Guard and Biovores. A brood of Genestealers dropped out to fund the increase in price on my Hive Tyrant and Guard. The list played very much the same. The fire support came in a different shape, but that's about it.

Walk up the table and shoot while Genestealers outflank. Smash what's left when you get there. Same drill, different numbers.

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. In a highly competitive environment, a nid army will most likely play very unlike it used to play with the 4th ed codex. And I think you'll see a lot of things changing over the course of the coming months. Lots of standard choices will fade away and new units will take center stage.

Vaktathi
17-01-2010, 14:24
We don't know if the two lists were tailored to each other. Both players may have had a chance to tailor their lists. It does sound as if the 4e one was tailored because Implant Attack is unheard of on a Carnifex. Even when tailoring to Tyranids it's not such a good idea. That was the main thing that sorta led me to that idea. I've never really heard of implant attack being very popular, hence why it came into play so much here it sorta stuck out.

Dreachon
17-01-2010, 14:28
Actually it's very polulair, around here people allways take it on tyrant, broodlords and often on genestealers, carnifex is unusual but it does happen.
I can't count the number of times that implant attack has saved my bacon by just cuasing those extra wounds to a model, hey it allowed a units of 12 genies to take down an'ggrath in a single round of combat without him having a chance to strike back.

Murphey
17-01-2010, 14:45
I'm not trying to be offensive, but it sounds like someone tailored a 4E codex list to defeat a 5E codex list with a big unit that was modeled for advantage.

Actually it was one of my nid lists. I've been using that variant since 4th ed started. So there was zero tailoring. The list itself only changed after 5th came out. And that was to replace rippers with gaunts (for objectives), and eventually removed the biovores, because the sheer number of people I went against who claimed they gave away killpoints.

I didn't play the army myself, a friend did, I just let him use my list/models.

Implant attack on Fex's/Hive Tyrants is something I put on at the beginning (and have absolutely loved no mater what) since the guy who was teaching me to play was a CSM player. And he loved his Demon princes/lords with runes (ID protection), and greater demons.

Now, I will admit that the 4th ed list that was used was more MC heavy than what some people on this board would consider "balanced", but "balanced" is such a vague, subjective term I honestly was not factoring it into my response.

And for the record, watching a unit of gaunt with w/o number eat through a unit of 5e genestealers pretty much clenched the lack of frag grenades issue in my mind.

4e player had his gaunts strung up as an anti-charge line in front of some of his shooty MCs. Genestealers outflanked, couldn't charge the MCs (gaunts where in the way, and they were in hard cover so shooting wasen't killing them), so they charged the gaunts.

The genestealers lost 4 models (to gaunts in CC), managed to eat through a bunch of gaunts (which failed their moral check because the Nid player wisely had counter charge pull them out of synapse). Gaunts got destroyed, but not before taking 4 genestealers with them.

Next turn, MCs took a step back, gaunts came back on the board and got back in the same position between the MCs and genestealers.

The eventual result was all of the genestealers died charging the gaunts, or being shot by the flesh borers. The MCs didn't even have to shoot at the stealers, they just killed themselves by charging gaunts in cover. (The MCs were busy railing a Trygon who had popped up nearby.)

As an aside, my friends and I decided that I would be more than willing to use my 4e list, the same one I've always used, to go against anyone who thinks the new 'Nid codex is superior to the old.

~Murphey

itcamefromthedeep
17-01-2010, 14:52
Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. In a highly competitive environment, a nid army will most likely play very unlike it used to play with the 4th ed codex. And I think you'll see a lot of things changing over the course of the coming months. Lots of standard choices will fade away and new units will take center stage.
Of course the optimal lists are going to bring different models and configurations. That happens with every codex and army book I've ever heard of. Naturally, we'll need time to figure out how to abuse the screw-ups.

That doesn't mean that there will be some kind of tectonic shift in how Tyranids play. People will try the drop pod army until they see why Marines don't do it much. People will try the new Nidzilla and I'm curious as to how that will turn out.

In 6 months, though, I expect things to go back to status quo. Walk across the table and lay down some firepower. Genestealers outflank and the rest of the force assaults the good targets. I think you'll even see Trygons deploying instead of Deep Striking. They're fast enough that they can get where they're going as fast or almost as fast by walking, and they can do it more consistently.

You might switch up the quarterback and the receivers, even trade out some of the linemen for the new season, but you're still playing football.

Radium
17-01-2010, 14:56
I see your point, and I definitely agree with you. But the overall feel I get from all the Tyranid threads is that everything has turned useless and everyone needs to buy 3 trygons etc. Now I know a lot of that has been overreacting, and I am looking forward to facing the new Nids. And I also think we will see a lot of very different tactics from what we're used to seeing from nids. But that really depends on what you're used to seeing or (if you play nids) what you fielded with the previous codex.

itcamefromthedeep
17-01-2010, 15:48
I see your point, and I definitely agree with you. But the overall feel I get from all the Tyranid threads is that everything has turned useless and everyone needs to buy 3 trygons etc.
I've found that to be a small proportion of the complaints. What I see is a whole lot of "this mechanic was really badly worded, which looks to make the AAA kinda pointless" and "the internal balance is bad, because I can't see a good reason to take XXX over YYY". That's frustrating.

---

As for 4e Tyranids and 5e Tyranids, it is important to talk about what a balanced list looks like. Here's a fairly tame 1500 I like to bring for fun in the 4e codex:

Hive Tyrant: talons/whip+sword, extended carapace, flesh hooks, toxin sacs
3 Tyrant Guard: flesh hooks
Hive Tyrant: strangler/devourers, enhanced senses, toxin sacs
Carnifex: talons/strangler
Carnifex: talons/strangler
5 Warriors: talons/deathspitters+strangler, toxin sacs, extended carapace
16 Spinegaunts
16 Termagants
16 Devilgaunts
10 Genestealers: scuttlers, flesh hooks
10 Genestealers: scuttlers, feeder tendrils

And here's a 1500 point balanced 5e list I cobbled together as an analog:

Hive Tyrant: talons/whip+sword, extended carapace
3 Tyrant Guard: lash whips
2 Hive Guard
2 Zoanthropes
2 Zoanthropes
5 Warriors: talons/deathspitters+strangler, toxin sacs
15 Hormagaunts
15 Hormagaunts
15 Hormagaunts
10 Genestealers
3 Biovores

---

I think the 5e list would get pounded. The Boomfexes are murder on all the mid-sized beasties, as well as any of the light infantry.

The old shooty Hive Tyrant and Warriors will similarly go through the little guys like a hot knife through butter.

Hormagaunts just pants the old Spinegaunts, but the Devilgaunts are a problem for them.

The new cc Tyrant and Guard would be more than a match for the old one, but it had better be. That fight is skewed in favor of the new guys, but not by all that much.

The Biovores are taking the place of a Genestealer brood there. I think the new Biovores would do really well clearing out Warriors and Gaunts until they get hit by stranglers from the Carnifexes. If they get lucky they could also simply remove a Genestealer brood.

The new Zoanthropes and Hive Guard would have to put their firepower into the old MCs, particularly the shooty Hive Tyrant.

Vepr
17-01-2010, 17:31
Actually it's very polulair, around here people allways take it on tyrant, broodlords and often on genestealers, carnifex is unusual but it does happen.
I can't count the number of times that implant attack has saved my bacon by just cuasing those extra wounds to a model, hey it allowed a units of 12 genies to take down an'ggrath in a single round of combat without him having a chance to strike back.

I often took implant because I played orcs a lot and you needed it against Nobs.

itcamefromthedeep
17-01-2010, 17:47
I often took implant because I played orcs a lot and you needed it against Nobs.
It was the Carnifexes that were throwing Vakathi and I off. Naturally, they have the Strength to inflict Instant Death on most models anyway, so Implant Attack is of minimal value to a Carnifex unless you end up fighting a lot of creatures with a very high Toughness or Eternal Warrior. It makes a certain amount of sense if you fight a lot of Daemons.

Vepr
17-01-2010, 17:54
It was the Carnifexes that were throwing Vakathi and I off. Naturally, they have the Strength to inflict Instant Death on most models anyway, so Implant Attack is of minimal value to a Carnifex unless you end up fighting a lot of creatures with a very high Toughness or Eternal Warrior. It makes a certain amount of sense if you fight a lot of Daemons.

True it is not something I ever took on a fex other than every once in a blue moon if I made CC godfex for going after greater demons etc.

Murphey
17-01-2010, 18:09
It was the Carnifexes that were throwing Vakathi and I off. Naturally, they have the Strength to inflict Instant Death on most models anyway, so Implant Attack is of minimal value to a Carnifex unless you end up fighting a lot of creatures with a very high Toughness or Eternal Warrior. It makes a certain amount of sense if you fight a lot of Daemons.

The thing that cemented me taking IA on my fexs, was my other main opponent who I used to play with a lot during the beginning, was a Tyranid Player as well. He was a fan of warriors with Rending claws and lash whips (along with leaping).

Those were his Greater Demon/MC hunting crew (really good against wraithlords).

I remember when he charged one of my fexs and I started popping them, he was a bit surprised :D.

~Murphey

silashand
17-01-2010, 18:25
I haven't played bugs myself since early 4th edition, but of the 'nid players I know most of them almost always used implant attacks on their tyrant(s), not sure about on fexes. It seemed pretty popular from what I can tell.