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CKO
17-01-2010, 00:25
This new book is going to be very fun. I dont expect many of you to make it, I can see alot of people giving up on nids and picking up other armies.

In fact I predict that this book will be viewed as a failure by the gaming community mainly because the current metagame is shifting towards long range anti-tank and melta weapons something the new nids do not have.

When asking for advice how to make nids better, they will be told by more popular armies that they need more anti-tank. The nids anti-tank is not simple and is most effective when you use cc and various shooting, however most players will add hive guard or heavy venom cannons and will be frustrated with the results.

The other piece of advice will be to try out the tervigon. Obviously there are glaring holes in that list that players will learn how to counter with time.

However to the players that continue to use the new codex, will develop a style that is hard to beat and not easily replicated. This style will be so hard to accomplish and to understand that you will be extremely hard to beat.

I know after bumping heads with alot of people that it will be impossible for a large number of people to stick it out and take enough lumps to develop the style of play that will dominate so to the new nid players we will be a dying fleet.

Jorgandr
17-01-2010, 00:48
We will just have to wait and see, no?

blackroyal
17-01-2010, 00:48
Honestly? ... CKO, I don't see this "culling" and "hard learning curve" happening. I think that players will figure out what works in a fairly short time. I also do not think that it is possible to create "unbeatable" Tyranid strategy.

I am quite excited about the new codex. Excited enough that my Tyranids have once again been loaded into the game bag after 2 years.

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 00:53
First things first, Nid anti tank "point for point" is the BEST in the game bar none. Anyone who b****es and says the zoanthrope blows cuz it dies too easily tends to forget the fact that A)It can shoot the turn it DS in and that one turn of shooting will wreck whatever it shoots and B) It may not be uber survivable but 3 of them can atleast survive a squads Rapid Fire meaning more than 1 squad will probably be needed, which means less guns on the guys who are needed at that point, INF killers.

Anyways, I think you are touching on something that although will be true in some cases, Warseer for example, will not be inherently true in the mainstream. By this I mean, sure some people will leave due to their inability to adapt but really these are the people who make up the LOUDEST portion of Nidz, and all armies really, whereas the majority of players are more likely than not content/exstatic with what they got and thus see no need to voice their opinions since one is more likely to B**** than Praise. All in all I say the "Fleet" will flourish with new members and members who were stagnating with an old Codex while simultaneously loosing the baggage that kept the "Fleet" from getting better, Nidzilla with no style.

RampagingRavener
17-01-2010, 01:13
However to the players that continue to use the new codex, will develop a style that is hard to beat and not easily replicated. This style will be so hard to accomplish and to understand that you will be extremely hard to beat.

That's cool and all, but how about actually sharing the details of this hard to beat list/playstyle with us?

I fully agree that the Codex is nowhere near as bad as many people are making out, and overall I rather like it. But at the moment you're saying nothing beyond "Don't think you can get away with just Hive Guard and Heavy Venom Cannons for your Anti-tank", "Use the Tervigon", and "The codex can be pretty good" which frankly most of us probably worked out already.

Feyaden
17-01-2010, 01:18
I have a brother that when he gets into something, he goes all out. That being said he has almost 6k+ points of nids, however he never was a big fan of painitng. When I helped paint his armies (and it was boring doing behemoth on a black basecoat) I would play from time to time as the 'nids. Having played all armies bar DE, I think the new 'nid codex not only does them great justice but also rewards those who actually took a blend of units to get things done.

I have played maybe 6-7 games now as the new nid codex and while I have to admit I didn't win them all (won 3 lost 3 draw 1) I think the new codex brings a lot more flexibility. My favourite unit right now is the pyrovore, who many think is highly situational (still trying to figure out when and how to use him) but when they hit they can hit hard. My only advice is to play the army a few times (and for those with not a big budget just proxy models if your opponent is cool with that) to get the new nids feel down pat.

On a side note of " 'nidzilla " I personally never had problems with it. While I personally didn't have a taste playing for or against it, there was nothing in the codex saying you can't do that so I can somewhat sympathesize with the people that had bought 6 carnifeces (yes they are called CarniFECES because they would **** all over your army). That being said though I always felt that 'nids should be played with a blend /allcomers list and the new codex rewards that. When it comes to powergaming though I am not sure where the new 'nids stand but if you are powergaming instead of playing for fun maybe Dawn of War II 'nids are where your real heart lies.

PS: Lictors <3 Pyrovores <33 and new carnifex <333

CKO
17-01-2010, 01:20
Spores and Zoanthrope that feels like drop pods with melta weapons, hive Guard feels like long fangs, and tervigons feels like the new unit!

I use "feels like" as a way to show what and why players will suggest to use these, which is fine but unlike most armies our list must have much more synergy. I know that all armies need synergy but the nids synergy is different and will require non-marine like strategies to be successful.

Since most people play with marines or play like marines it is a very hard transition. I dont know if the nids vet will have the same problem or not.

Gaargod
17-01-2010, 01:27
New codex really does like balanced lists. Stuff is overpriced, but even so you can fit a fair amount in. Yes, normal unbalanced lists will still work and may well be the power lists, but i actually feel for once you probably should take a balanced army!

On the other hand, a little too much is basically redundant. Lictors, pyrovores and carnifeces are all going to be very rare - underpowered and overpriced. A lot of things are crazily overpriced (T-fex) and the lack of frag grenades really, really hurts.

@ Feyaden: well done for getting the name right on carnifeces. Although you overrate their new abilities and of course the real reason for their name is because that's the latin nominative plural (for the unaware, carnifex is a real latin noun, 3rd declension, meaning executioner - the reason it goes to a c in the plural ending is because x = k (or g) + s. K in greek usually gets transliterated as c, hence: x = c + s)

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 01:30
CKO your not making a whole lot of sense. Yes synergy is important, as with all armies, and yes Tyranids will require far more use of synergy than others but what does that have to do with certain units "Feeling" Like other armies units? Are you trying to say that because they work like other units from other armies that they aren't as synergetic as other units in the Nid Dex? or are you saying that those units can't be used in a Vacuum, i.e. can't be spammed, in which case that is woefully obvious since, you know, all armies work that way.

I agree with the idea that Nidz can't spam certain units anymore, and it seems so do you, but it seems like you are assuming that Old Nid players inability to adapt is based on the idea that they can't spam a WIN unit, but really most of the whiners problems are due to entirely different issues than that, other than the Carni people but they got what we all knew was coming.

Feyaden
17-01-2010, 01:37
@gaargod:
I did not intend for it to sound as if the new Carnifeces are overated. They are still a liability if not used right (just as before) but now there is more points invested in them. The games I won as tyranids in the new addition were against infantry hordes to heavy mech, to a heavy 'nid on 'nid game. Yes things die to massive massed bolter fire, but if you take the magic mix of units the enemy can't always afford to mass fire, so limiting when and where he masses his fire works well to our advantage.

I also must stress what you said, yes lictors, pyrovores and carnifeces will be rare, as for over prices and underpowered I disagree but I rather reserve my judgements until a later day when i have more games under my belt. However what I can say now is that the games I won I was light on the heavy and elites; a good core of light units mixed in with a few medium synapse creatures goes a long way. A single well placed unit makes all the difference in the game now and i find the synergy of the new codex much better.

On a final note, the last thing I want to point out is that nids scales up very well.

CKO
17-01-2010, 01:48
I am saying that you cannot use tyranid units the same way a marine player would use it, to vets this is obvious. You literally have to think differently and evaluate units in a whole different way.

catbarf
17-01-2010, 02:01
First things first, Nid anti tank "point for point" is the BEST in the game bar none. Anyone who b****es and says the zoanthrope blows cuz it dies too easily tends to forget the fact that A)It can shoot the turn it DS in and that one turn of shooting will wreck whatever it shoots and B) It may not be uber survivable but 3 of them can atleast survive a squads Rapid Fire meaning more than 1 squad will probably be needed, which means less guns on the guys who are needed at that point, INF killers.

That's ridiculous. For the cost of a brood of Zoanthropes, an SM player could get a full squad of Devastators with Lascannons. The Devastators are harder to kill, throw out more firepower (albeit without the Lance rule), can reach out to 48", and don't require a psychic test.

Zoanthropes are decent anti-tank, but they're sure as heck not the best. Your argument boils down to 'Yes, they die very quickly, but at least you get to shoot for one turn'. Other armies have anti-tank that does not rely upon suicide to get the job done.

As well, they're in an army with relatively few choices. Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and the Tyrannofex form about all of the ranged AT.

harrytheschmuck
17-01-2010, 02:08
after getting a very good look at the new nids today i cant say i was blown away. i love the new book more for the fact that it was something new and i had waited long enough to see it. however weather it be through bad luck etc i wasn't overly impressed. it does have the feel of a GW marketing ploy all over it with what they have done with new things and what they have done with the previously more popular pics.

Feyaden
17-01-2010, 02:09
@catbarf
When it comes to anti-tank though, remember a lascannon is only a lascannon when it isnt tied down by melee units, a positive side for tyranids. However the same goes against zoanthropes but once again if you can get them to focus on units that aren't immediatly important to your plan then bonus points. I am of the vocal group that says wait and play, and if the whining doesn't subside within "x" time frame then maybe there is a problem?

Edit: a lascannon is also useless against a horde. awwww, ninja'd

Lord_Squinty
17-01-2010, 02:14
Also, a lascannon is useless against a horde, Zoans at least have Warp Blast as well for the choice.

There's nothing wrong with this new 'dex, some of it is pure filth :D (depending on the player)

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 02:43
Sure the 3x Zoanthropes may cost as much as a full SM Dev squad with Lascannons but think about it like this:
SM's are not dependant on their tac squads, yes like all armies they still need em, but they aren't solely reliant on them to get the job done. On the other hand the Nidz need their little gribblies to survive or else they won't be able to push hard enought to pull out a win.

Why does this matter? Well let's see:
The SM player doesn't need to worry about tanks as much because A)They don't rely solely on their Taq squads and B)They are more resilient to Tank fire, be it through a 3+ save or the fact that the squad is smaller and thus scatter is more noticeable.
The Nid player NEEDS to worry about tanks because A) They do rely on those little gribblies to get the job done and B) said gribblies are FAR more succeptible to Tank fire.

Taking this into account it makes sense for the Zoans cost cuz what do they do? They RELIABLY destroy said tanks before they can fire or fire more than once which to a Nid player is far more important than for the SM player. Also the Zoans have better AT ability than 4 LasCans atleast in my mind since they can punch through armor 14 easily and they're AP 1 and Str 10, unlike Las, which means they almost always Pen and have a 50/50 chance of knocking that tank out before it does too much damage.

catbarf
17-01-2010, 02:55
So you're saying Zoanthropes suck for the cost and that's okay because we need them anyways.

catbarf
17-01-2010, 04:05
Also, a lascannon is useless against a horde, Zoans at least have Warp Blast as well for the choice.

In an army composed of specialists that need to rely on synergy to put their respective strengths to use, there's no room for wasting points on a jack-of-all-trades that is too costly and too unreliable in its primary role.

Edit: I don't think Zoanthropes are bad, and being able to take on infantry as well as tanks is nice, but they've got some pretty hefty weaknesses and all the versatility in the world won't help when that Land Raider is 30" away, a character is making you fail your psychic test, or you get Bolter'd on turn two. They're alright, no more, no less.

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 04:07
No i'm saying they are amazing for the cost because they allow you to solve one of the Nidz biggest problems, one that most Nid players have whined about for a long time (With ample reason I might add), before said problems can do the damage they normally can do.

I mean for those points I'd love to have a unit like that in my orc army which suffers in almost the same way as old nidz did against tanks.

To further my argument I present this idea to you: Nidz are costed the way they are because they rely so heavily on melee and numbers that if the enemy could keep a distance while thinning said numbers before they hit the Nidz would always lose. Best way to do this? With tanks. So your AT may be more expensive then you consider it to be worth, though honestly I find the new AT to be perfectly costed, but this is countered by the fact that your units would be dead without it and the fact that most nidz, and orks, are costed a little lower than what they should be because they have such an obvious range deficiency. Of course although that still applies to the orks the nidz have completely lost that deficiency due to the amazing new AT they have. So in effect they come out ahead both in the fact that the enemy is missing a tank and the fact that the nidz have more of their points left to make it to melee.

On a side note, as has been mentioned before, the Zoans are at least able to take on multiple army styles whereas the LasCan Devs are incredibly one sided in their application.

Seth the Dark
17-01-2010, 04:07
At first glance it doesn't look like Nids will be uping the power curve of the game which is a good thing.

catbarf
17-01-2010, 04:21
To further my argument I present this idea to you: Nidz are costed the way they are because they rely so heavily on melee and numbers that if the enemy could keep a distance while thinning said numbers before they hit the Nidz would always lose. Best way to do this? With tanks. So your AT may be more expensive then you consider it to be worth, though honestly I find the new AT to be perfectly costed, but this is countered by the fact that your units would be dead without it and the fact that most nidz, and orks, are costed a little lower than what they should be because they have such an obvious range deficiency. Of course although that still applies to the orks the nidz have completely lost that deficiency due to the amazing new AT they have. So in effect they come out ahead both in the fact that the enemy is missing a tank and the fact that the nidz have more of their points left to make it to melee.

Once again, you are saying that Zoanthropes cost too much for what they do. The excuse you give is that they are basically the only choice as they fulfill an absolutely necessary role in the Tyranid army, and that other units are cheaper for balance. Whether or not you need them, the fact remains that they are overpriced in relation to other armies and taking them, even if it is necessary, weakens the army as a whole by leaving fewer points for other things.

Edit: And Tyranids are by no means cheap for what they do. A Termagant is basically a Guardsman with a worse gun, no access to orders, and poorer armor. Hormagaunts die in droves. Warriors lose 30-40pts for every lascannon shot that hits them, and Carnifexes and Tyrants float in the 150-250pt range. Every unit in the army has to be worth its cost, the sort of 'compensative pricing' you suggest doesn't hold up.


On a side note, as has been mentioned before, the Zoans are at least able to take on multiple army styles whereas the LasCan Devs are incredibly one sided in their application.

Worthless. When you need AT, you need AT. All the adaptability in the world won't help when you can't pop a Land Raider and it kills off your Hive Tyrant. This is an army focused around every creature having a unique role.

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 04:32
Were you using hyperbole to make your point because mathematically the Zoans are more likely to take out a Land Raider than those 4 devs, ergo they are better for the same cost. Likewise other Nidz are cheaper, please remember this point it seems you missed it last time, for what they do so if you took a whole army of nothing but little nidz against a whole army of little something else's you would most likely win but since people like to take tanks your undercosted army will get completely owned thus you take the zoans who, although on the somewhat expensive side (though still amazing value) counteract that deficiency.

Any overcost that, apparently, went into the zoan is counteracted by the lower overall cost of the rest of the army so you are still in the same position as your opponent points wise except now he has a bunch of dead tanks which are generally around the same costs as the zoans.

Dead Man Walking
17-01-2010, 04:51
CKO your not making a whole lot of sense. Yes synergy is important, as with all armies, and yes Tyranids will require far more use of synergy than others but what does that have to do with certain units "Feeling" Like other armies units? Are you trying to say that because they work like other units from other armies that they aren't as synergetic as other units in the Nid Dex? or are you saying that those units can't be used in a Vacuum, i.e. can't be spammed, in which case that is woefully obvious since, you know, all armies work that way.

I agree with the idea that Nidz can't spam certain units anymore, and it seems so do you, but it seems like you are assuming that Old Nid players inability to adapt is based on the idea that they can't spam a WIN unit, but really most of the whiners problems are due to entirely different issues than that, other than the Carni people but they got what we all knew was coming.

I dont know why it is everyone thinks Nidzilla is dead and they seem to like dancing on carni graves while singing a jig. Nidzilla is not dead, in fact if you like nidzilla most likely the game got a lot better. Trygons will just replace carnifex and you won't get several rounds of lazcannons to put them down before they are on top of you. If you like carnifex you can deep strike them now. You can deepstrike a tyrant right next to your guard and autojoin them. Carni's get far more devourers shots than before, and they can run and fire with the right psychic powers.


Believe me when I say that competitive nid players will have no problem adapting, if there is anything they do well its adapt. They will have a 'one list to rule them all' army in no time, and your going to hate them even worse than what they could do last edition.

Treadhead_1st
17-01-2010, 05:00
In fact I predict that this book will be viewed as a failure by the gaming community mainly because the current metagame is shifting towards long range anti-tank and melta weapons something the new nids do not have.

When asking for advice how to make nids better, they will be told by more popular armies that they need more anti-tank. The nids anti-tank is not simple and is most effective when you use cc and various shooting, however most players will add hive guard or heavy venom cannons and will be frustrated with the results.

The thing is though, the more people that play the Tyranids then the more the metagame shifts - away from heavy tanks (Nids have a variety of ways to go through them like butter - Trygons, Mawlocs, Shrikes, winged Tyrants, Harpies, Carnifex, Zoanthropes, Pods for any of the aforementioned, Gargoyles shooting rear-armour, Hive Guard - sure, not all of them - or even very few of them - are ranged anti-vehicle methods. But a smattering of anti-vehicle and you'll prevent it shooting up your troops, long enough to get one of the mentioned units into combat - bigger stuff against things like Land Raiders obviously) and mass-Melta (because it's not so effective against MCs - and to counter them chomping on the Heavy Tanks that are left, people may opt for Plasma more).

So this addresses the balance of the Tyranids not having any Melta weapons for themselves, and having limited options for anti-tank.

But seriously:

However to the players that continue to use the new codex, will develop a style that is hard to beat and not easily replicated. This style will be so hard to accomplish and to understand that you will be extremely hard to beat.


I am saying that you cannot use tyranid units the same way a marine player would use it, to vets this is obvious. You literally have to think differently and evaluate units in a whole different way.

I know that all armies need synergy but the nids synergy is different and will require non-marine like strategies to be successful.

Since most people play with marines or play like marines it is a very hard transition. I dont know if the nids vet will have the same problem or not.

I don't see what's going to be so hard-to-beat about the Nid playstyle. In time the metagame will shift and things will be back to normal - well, once people get over Vulkan and start fielding more than just Meltaguns anyway.

But of course the Tyranids require a different playstyle to Marines. If people are picking the army up and not realising it then they're probably not gamers, as they can't work out how to open the rulebook. Did that concept really warrant a thread?

enigma-96
17-01-2010, 05:12
Dead man I know nidzilla isn't dead but for those Nid players who chime in that it's "Bigger and Better" then ever they are the ones who you should be shocked about. I mean sure Tervigons are nice but A) to take them as a troop you need a bunch of weedy termagaunts as troops which are easy as hell to kill and B) the Tervigon blows compared to old Carni.

Likewise the trygon may be awesome but its armor is lower than the old Carnies, assuming 2+ was bought though I'm certain it almost always was, thus more weapons can ignore its armor, its DS doesn't let it attack so it can be tarpitted and worst of all, for the Trygon, it costs alot of points so spamming it, to 3 anyways would put you back alot. Finally the Carni although it can be taken in greater volume now it is far too expensive to take more than 1 or 2.

So yeah Nidzilla still exists but now it is in the realm of being fair and defeatable by more army types as opposed to old Nidzilla which was either Win Hard or Lose Hard.

azimaith
17-01-2010, 05:19
The books biggest problem right now is that it has a hard time functioning in 1500 points because of base costs. Your anti-tank starts at 60 points a model and goes from there to 250 points a model without much in the middle to fill that heavy hitting role.

Same thing with the tyrants you either trundle along every turn for 4 turns getting shot all the way, get wings and cost nearly a LR's cost, or you get a prime with no special movement modes, lose the MC 2d6 and jump into a warriors mycetic pod.

There isn't something like the old tyrant where you could go with a fairly bare bones flyer for some 180 points or go to the obscene ones that cost some 225 points. Now its starts at nearly 180 flat walking and easily goes to 300+ points!

Its hard to justify buying screening gaunts because you haven't got anything to screen because they're too pricey and its hard to buy MCs and still maintain a reasonable level of troops that can take objectives and not be useless.

catbarf
17-01-2010, 14:18
Were you using hyperbole to make your point because mathematically the Zoans are more likely to take out a Land Raider than those 4 devs, ergo they are better for the same cost.

Land Raider, yes. AV13 or less, no. The Devs also can fire out to 48", are harder to kill, and cannot be nullified by anti-psyker wargear.


Likewise other Nidz are cheaper, please remember this point it seems you missed it last time, for what they do so if you took a whole army of nothing but little nidz against a whole army of little something else's you would most likely win but since people like to take tanks your undercosted army will get completely owned thus you take the zoans who, although on the somewhat expensive side (though still amazing value) counteract that deficiency.

That's absolutely incorrect. A Termagant is poor compared to an equally-costed Guardsman, a Hormagaunt just can't compare to an Ork Boy, and 200pts of Warriors are likely to be obliterated by 200pts of Terminators. Tyranids aren't cheap for what they do.

Just because you need to use them does not instantly excuse an overpriced unit. In fact, I'd say the opposite- you get shafted since you need ranged AT and the best option is overpriced.


Any overcost that, apparently, went into the zoan is counteracted by the lower overall cost of the rest of the army so you are still in the same position as your opponent points wise except now he has a bunch of dead tanks which are generally around the same costs as the zoans.

This is awful game balance. It's when designers decide to have such 'compensative pricing' that min-maxing becomes possible. If Guard had to pay 10pts for each man but heavy weapons were only a few points apiece, you wouldn't see many balanced armies, you'd see people load up on the guns with as few men as possible. It's an idea that just doesn't work.

And in any case, the notion that Tyranids are cheap is just ridiculous. None of the basic units are better than equally-priced counterparts in other armies, and a lot of the larger units are either overpriced (Carnifex) or have significant weaknesses (Warriors).

Pyriel
17-01-2010, 16:00
OK, i've seen lots of opinions. my take on the new codex is:
a) wether its powerful or not: we CANNOT know until we see for sure what kind of strategies will be used. in practice.

b) wether the codex is good: no matter how weak or even *powerful* it ends up being, i think it SUCKS. that is, because it seems to *completely* change the way nids play, FORCES players to get "all the cool new minis" in order to be effective. i will explain this in my next opinion:

c) wether it can function in the current metagame:
yes it can, but only by combining specific old units with many new ones.
example: i really think hive guard will be needed to slow down tank shooting, until your cc arrives. then if you see the codex, you'll see the "anti-GEQ cc" units and the "anti-large tank units" needed are typicaly new in the codex, with possible exception of genestealers.

the codex will not play as a horde, once again.most gaunts wont see play.
the codex will not use the nid warriors (hello instant-death).
the codex wont use ranged MCs, will mostly use cc ones due to already high base cost.

i really think this is the codex that changes the *nature* of the army more than any other. TO BE HONEST i think the nids needed that (too much shooting in most nids lists i see, becomes uncharacterful) but i'm just not sure how it'll play out.

incarna
17-01-2010, 16:54
I declare the new Tyrand Codex a profound sucess.

There isn't a nid player at my LGS who doesn't absolutely love it. It's drawing many new nid players to the army.

/thread

Vepr
17-01-2010, 17:20
I am still fairly unimpressed with the new codex but at first glace I thought we would be able to create fairly decent all comers lists with it. After about 11 games (really 31 but the first 20 were more tests than anything else with the leak) I am not so sure. A balanced nid lists suffers heavily against mech.

alphastealer
17-01-2010, 17:39
I agree the tyranids will need a fair bit of the new toys in order to be overall competative.

I am going to be experimenting with 1x trygon and 1x mawloc and 3x hive guard to go with the rest of my old models.

I like the idea of a alpha warrior as HQ with lash, bone and deathspitter, regen and toxin. At 120pt he is quite the bad boy on the charge or when he shoots. Give him a group of 5 warriors with similar kit and you have a unit that is going to be a pain to remove from an objective.

I am going to convert an old metal fex into a tervigon to add some FNP to those warriors and supplement them with free gaunts.

The thing I like about the Mawloc is that it can really hurt static shooting troops and any vehicles that cannot move for a turn. This will need to be combined with some zoanthrope shooting to at least stun if not destroy.

I will use 1 unit to gaunts to get the Tervigon, 1 decent size haumagaunt brood with adrenal glands.

The only downside to this codex for me is that a lot of the good stuff is quite expensive in points, whereas Robin gave the IG a serious buy-in-bulk-discount. It just means that nids will only get better at higher point games.

Thankfully for me my local league has increased the tournament size from 1500 to 1650 so that helps.

Dreachon
17-01-2010, 18:03
I declare the new Tyrand Codex a profound sucess.

There isn't a nid player at my LGS who doesn't absolutely love it. It's drawing many new nid players to the army.


Boy are you blind, just because it might get liked at one club doesn't man it's good, I've already been to two LGS and guess what the nids players weren't happy yet the ones with IG, SM and other armies were weeping with joy.

Max Jet
17-01-2010, 18:24
Er.. there is a lot of hypothetical tactical Blablabla in this thread.. except for Catbarfs points.

To my understanding the Codex plays pretty much like the Imperial Guard Codex only with less reliability, more diversity, less Forgiveness in list building.
The allready mentioned mid games don't work unitl you start creating 1750 lists. Everything below that suffers from either useless lists, that lack Synergy or too expensive models, that can easily be singled out, just like Azimaith.

Also I couldn't agree less with CKO and the later postet comments about Nidzilla armies. The current Nidzilla army you can build has a massive increase in Surivability and Options, but there is one thing that cancels it out in any competitive game.
It cannot kill anything. Take the swarmlord as an example, he pretty much sums it up. You can just evade him.. why would anyone need to come as close as 12 inches to him? Or Waste Fire power on him? Just let him be and use the 300 points you get extra because the Tyranid Player takes a swarm lord on positions of the battle field where they do matter.
Same goes for Tervigons. The best tactic would be to eradicate the Gaunts quickly, let the Tervigon waste his spawning ability and just watch the slow und cumbersome creature walk around.
In dire situations one single Tervigon being to close to an objective might be killed through a concentrated salvo of fire, but I'd rather charge and stop it with a small squad as he isn't really the mass army slaugtherer. Otherwise half of them will not reach any objective.

To support Dreachon. There are two main reaction on the Codex where I live.
The "Boy do I love it!!" reaction (People who don't own a single Tyranid miniature)
and the "Boy do I hate it!" reaction (Mid time to relatively long Tyranid Players being no longer in the game then from third edition onward)

incarna
17-01-2010, 19:44
Boy are you blind, just because it might get liked at one club doesn't man it's good, I've already been to two LGS and guess what the nids players weren't happy yet the ones with IG, SM and other armies were weeping with joy.

Iíd say the blindness is on your part. Of course one club isnít an accurate representation of the entire gaming community. I was joking around. Why donít you try looking for a little humor in a post before you reply with venom? Do you REALLY think Iím stupid enough to believe that one small group is a representation of the whole and even if I WAS that stupid do you think that youíre curt response would enlighten me?

Never pass up an opportunity to insult a total stranger online right? Typical.

Regardless, I believe the codex has been extremely well received across the broader gaming community. Not only that, but I believe the codex to be in line with and well balanced against all other current 5th ed codexes. It'll take some time for the power lists to show up and then it'll take a bit more time for the meta game to rebalance.

Inso
17-01-2010, 21:57
There are some very important things to note about Codex Tyranids:
1. Exploit your enemy's weakness.
2. Use cover wisely.
3. Defend your weaknesses.
4. Note the objectives of the game and plan to achieve as many as possible.
5. No plan ever survives contact with the enemy.
6. Know what your special rules do and learn how to use them.
7. Know what the rules say and learn to use them.
8. Be magnanimous in defeat and courteous in victory.

Finally...it isn't what you have at your disposal that counts, it is how you use it that wins victories.

Every time a new codex comes out there are calls of 'it is broken' or 'it isn't as good as it used to be'. I'll tell you what it is (and there is no disputing this)...it is the new rules. That means if you want to use your beloved army that cost a mint to build and blood, sweat and tears to paint, you have two options...adapt to the new rules or use the old rules.

I think that there are a lot of cool aspects to the new Codex and I quite like the way they have simplified some of the biomorphs...there are some less appealing aspects but I would be looking to adapt to them and learn to use them rather than berating changes that I have no control over.

Lots more choices.
Lots more character.
Lots of new stuff to learn.

What could be bad about that?

I guess that is why I don't play on console games very much...they just aren't as interesting...

Bassline
17-01-2010, 22:08
Once again, you are saying that Zoanthropes cost too much for what they do. The excuse you give is that they are basically the only choice as they fulfill an absolutely necessary role in the Tyranid army, and that other units are cheaper for balance. Whether or not you need them, the fact remains that they are overpriced in relation to other armies and taking them, even if it is necessary, weakens the army as a whole by leaving fewer points for other things.

Edit: And Tyranids are by no means cheap for what they do. A Termagant is basically a Guardsman with a worse gun, no access to orders, and poorer armor. Hormagaunts die in droves. Warriors lose 30-40pts for every lascannon shot that hits them, and Carnifexes and Tyrants float in the 150-250pt range. Every unit in the army has to be worth its cost, the sort of 'compensative pricing' you suggest doesn't hold up.



Worthless. When you need AT, you need AT. All the adaptability in the world won't help when you can't pop a Land Raider and it kills off your Hive Tyrant. This is an army focused around every creature having a unique role.

Give nids a 5+ cover save when in the open, then thorw on FNP and fearless in a squad of 30, and you have somthing that has same chance as a marine to die to lasgun fire really in SV terms

(Marine 1/3 chance to fail, a gaunt is 2/3 to fail cover save but 1/2 for FNP, making it a 2/6 or 1/3 chance to fail both)

Also make assaulting them dangerous as of the poison fog. The 1/3 point tag of a marine what with chance of living an armour save (expect if hit by an AP3or less weapon THEN they have better chance)

Gutlord Grom
17-01-2010, 22:19
Give nids a 5+ cover save when in the open, then thorw on FNP and fearless in a squad of 30, and you have somthing that has same chance as a marine to die to lasgun fire really in SV terms

(Marine 1/3 chance to fail, a gaunt is 2/3 to fail cover save but 1/2 for FNP, making it a 2/6 or 1/3 chance to fail both)

Also make assaulting them dangerous as of the poison fog. The 1/3 point tag of a marine what with chance of living an armour save (expect if hit by an AP3or less weapon THEN they have better chance)

Problem is, to do so you need two additional units that keep your meat shield kicking, and each of those support units are somewhat fragile to be frontline troops. So you're paying somewhere in the region of 300 or so points(probably more, now that I think about it) altogether to have three units on the table. Once one unit gets killed, the other two go all the more easily.


Though to be fair, the math is there: 10 Space Marine bolters rapid firing will kill 2.96 Gaunts vs. 2.96 Space Marines. That math might not be right though, so don't hold me to it.

Edit: It's the same. Forget Gaunts were T 3. Odd s are the same. Me dumb.
Edit: Actually, its 2.22 Space Marines vs. 2.96 Gaunts killed by ten bolters. Me no good at math.

catbarf
18-01-2010, 00:17
Give nids a 5+ cover save when in the open, then thorw on FNP and fearless in a squad of 30, and you have somthing that has same chance as a marine to die to lasgun fire really in SV terms

(Marine 1/3 chance to fail, a gaunt is 2/3 to fail cover save but 1/2 for FNP, making it a 2/6 or 1/3 chance to fail both)

Also make assaulting them dangerous as of the poison fog. The 1/3 point tag of a marine what with chance of living an armour save (expect if hit by an AP3or less weapon THEN they have better chance)

As said by Grom, it's still not the same as with Space Marines.

But if we're going to allow synergy, let's give the Guardsman a Lieutenant to give them all three shots apiece as well as some heavy fire support, and perhaps a Mortar Squad to kill the Gaunts or a Lascannon Squad to kill the Tervigon.

When those 30 Guardsmen use FRFSRF, they'll kill a quarter of the Termagants in one volley, even if the Termagants get both their FNP and cover save. The Command Squad can supplement this with a barrage of Grenade Launchers, and the Mortar Squad will exact a heavy toll.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Tyranid units are meant to operate in a vacuum. But they're DEFINITELY not cheaper than they should be, as enigma said- if anything, they're more expensive than they should be, as synergy with other units makes up the difference.

azimaith
18-01-2010, 04:37
For fun lets look at how many shots it would take to drop said 30 fnp/5+ save gaunts.
Lasguns:30/.5/.66/.5/.5=363.63, in other words, 364 shots.
We can work this backwards (or forwards) to proof it:
364x.5x.5x.66.5=30.3 unsaved wounds.

Bolters: 30/.66/.66/.66/.5=208
208x.66x.66x.66.x5=29.89

So obviously, hey, its pretty hard to kill 30 fnp/5+ cover save gaunts with only bolters or lasguns!
Now lets look at this in a different way.
2/.5/.33/.66=18.34
What has two wounds, is hit on a 4+ by lasguns, wounded on a 5+, and has a 5+ save?
Thats right, a venomthrope and it takes a mere 18 shots to put it down.

Lets look at marines:
2/.66/.5/.66=9
9 shots to put down.

What happens to our gaunts when we lose the venomthrope and fight lasguns?
30/.5/.5/.84/.5=286, 79 less shots, that makes shooting the venomthrope 4 times more effective at resulting in gaunt deaths than shooting the gaunts. That venomthrope can give you 11 gaunts. Lets take a look at that. 41/.5/.5/.84/.5=389.
Shock! It takes more to kill 41 gaunts with FNP (obviously, impossible since 41 is more than max size) when compared to 30 with a venomthrope. In fact the number where a venomthrope gets better against is if hes protecting 104 gaunts.
104x.5.x.5.x.84x.5=10.92

Lets take a look at the same lasguns shooting the two squads, one with 30 and FNP and one with 11 and without.
We already calculated 30 without 5+ and its 286 shots.
11/.5/.5/.84=52 So even with 11 gaunts in one squad and 30 gaunts with FNP in another were looking at them sucking up 34 more shots for the exact same price, that makes them almost 3 times more effect than spending points on a venomthrope.

Now remember you can put those 11 models in front of those 30 models thus giving them 4+ cover saves. (Spaced you can cover 20" fronts)

Now lets not forget the space marines.
So we know with the venomthrope its some 208 shots.
Without a venomthrope but with FNP its:
30/.66/.66/.5=138 shots, 70 less shots.
To kill the venomthropes worth its 11/.66/.66=25 shots.
It only takes marines 9 shots to put down the thrope' so now were looking at gaunts being around 3 times more effective than taking a single venomthrope.

So you might be wondering, what does this all mean?
Frankly, nothing. No one only shoots bolters or lasguns at you! However, it does show us that a venomthrope and a tervigon guarding a unit of gaunts is far less effective than a tervigon and two units of gaunts. This is further multiplied that you cant take a crappy unit of 11 gaunts, plop them in front of 30 gaunts and the gaunts behind them enjoy a superior cover save unless the enemy puts a bunch of shots into said models.

Save the venomthrope for guarding monstrous creatures (unless you want to be clever and just guard them behind gargoyles which are again, more effective.) If you think that the venomthropes 2+ wound and toxic miasma is worth the three times its value in covering ability I suppose thats you're choice, I don't think it is but this is an example of how things should not be. This is a braindead choice, if a venomthrope is going to provide cover that's easier to remove how can you justify it being worse cover than unit screening on a unit that can't hide in a squad?

There is a bucketload of these units that could be good but become incredibly retarded due to costs. (Carnifex, Pyrovore, venomthrope, to an extent, tyrant)

itcamefromthedeep
18-01-2010, 05:04
I know after bumping heads with alot of people that it will be impossible for a large number of people to stick it out and take enough lumps to develop the style of play that will dominate so to the new nid players we will be a dying fleet.
:confused: The dino-lobsters from space will be fine. Some units and a lot of options will hit the shelf, but a lot of people are going to play and have fun with Tyranids.

I don't even think that the learning curve will be all that steep. Sure, they went on a magical adventure down the rabbit hole, and they brought DBZ Cylons and Narvhals back with them, but it's not like they're Dark Eldar or anything.


Iíd say the blindness is on your part. Of course one club isnít an accurate representation of the entire gaming community. I was joking around. Why donít you try looking for a little humor in a post before you reply with venom?
Unfortunately we can't read minds. if you're going to do something sexy with the tone, you need to use some modifiers on the atonal words that appear on the screen. If there's humor in your post, tell us. We can't see it on the screen unless you show it to us.

Vineas
18-01-2010, 06:24
How are 5 Devs more survivable than 3 zoanthropes.

5 Devs x 4 lascannons is also 230pts, 3 zoanthropes is 180. So for 195 we could take 3 lascannons in the dev squad.

Against anything not S8 or higher it'll take more to kill the zoanthropes than it will 5 devs. 6 wounds vs 5 wounds. 3 Zoanthropes is 15pts cheaper than that dev squad, same save.

The advantage the marine has is that the sergeant is an ablative wound for the lascannons but once the sarge is dead 2 unsaved wounds equals 2 lascannons gone, 2 unsaved <8 wounds equals 1 zoanthrope gone. 4 wounds inflicted on that squad could STILL mean 2 dead lascannons (2 of them could be put on sarge and bolter but 2 HAVE to go onto 2 of the lascannons). 4 wounds inflicted on the zoanthropes results in less than 2 wounds resulting in NO loss of shots.

The lascannons are longer ranged but if the squad of marines gets bumped to 4 lascannons than for 40pts we could drop those zoanthropes in a pod and still be 10pts cheaper, range will no longer be much of an issue and inside of their range a S10 AP1 Lance is a lot deadlier than a S9 AP2 lascannon.

Oh, and against something like a colossus that is S6, AP3 ignoring cover guess who dies faster? If the template hits the marines that is more than likely 4 dead marines out of 5, if it hits the 3 zoanthropes that is once again a single wound.

So again, any shots of <S8 won't kill the zoanthropes any faster. S8+ will but the zoanthropes have a 3++ save all the time, those Devs have to be in cover and most times that is 4+; not to mention the zoanthrope rail gun can move and fire, Devs must stand still.

So I'll take Zoanthropes over a 4 Lascannon dev squad for 200 Alex.

Gutlord Grom
18-01-2010, 06:50
Devastators are generally more survivable than close range Zoanthropes for the simple fact that they get to hang back in your opponents backfield and take potshots, rather than having to get into the teeth of the enemy advance. It's a matter of counter attack efficiency.

To explain what I mean by that is quite simple. Devastators will be generally out of range of most infantry weapons (bolters, lasguns, deathspitters, pulse rifles, etc.) but be in range of most heavy weapons (Medusas, missile launchers, heavy bolters, plasma cannons, etc.) So to take them out the shooting phase, a player will not waste their bolters and the like on long range targets, and instead rely their long range weapons to handle them. Unfortunately, this means for the shooting player that he'll be throwing fewer shots at a small squad, when the rest of the Space Marine army might be able to avoid that fire that could be thrown at the assault elements. Essentially you throw your bastion breacher shell at the Devastators in cover and risk a scatter and get nothing, or take a shot at the massive Land Raider full of Assault Termies.

Call it survival of the lowest priority(BA dum tish! Evolution joke!).

Where the Zoanthropes suffer is that they have the words : We're a priority target written on their foreheads in neon letters. If your opponent is a mech player , especially one with Russes or Land Raiders bouncing around the board, he'll see those short range ST 10 lances floating their way and he'll pick them out as the highest priority target. He'll also have the luxury of using the fire power of entire squads on a single unit, where you might be facing bolters alongside that heavy weapon (which might be the only model in that unit with range to target Devs).

Now that's not to say Zoans can't be effective. They're deadly at short range against Land Raiders and the fronts of Russes. But if your enemy wants them dead, they're dead, simply through weight of fire.

Vineas
18-01-2010, 07:11
If my opponent is smart enough to pick them out than good on him for prioritizing right. IG have lots of 48+ inch ranged weapons to kill devs with.

If I drop in 3 zoanthropes at 180 pts and wreck or immobilize or explode a LR than even if they die immediately they've done their job.

I've seen Las devs used and I'm just not impressed with them. If I ran marines I'd take HB's or ML's over Las any day (even against other marines).

Not to mention 180pts gets me 3 S5 Ap3 template shots. So long as you don't scatter much or roll to many 11 or 12 ld rolls that is a lot of hurt on a squad, even in cover.

Tyranid elite is packed but I could take 2 units of 3 and still have room for Hive Guard. Not many marine players I know sacrifice more valuable heavy slot choices.

mightymconeshot
18-01-2010, 07:24
How are 5 Devs more survivable than 3 zoanthropes.

5 Devs x 4 lascannons is also 230pts, 3 zoanthropes is 180. So for 195 we could take 3 lascannons in the dev squad.

Against anything not S8 or higher it'll take more to kill the zoanthropes than it will 5 devs. 6 wounds vs 5 wounds. 3 Zoanthropes is 15pts cheaper than that dev squad, same save.

The advantage the marine has is that the sergeant is an ablative wound for the lascannons but once the sarge is dead 2 unsaved wounds equals 2 lascannons gone, 2 unsaved <8 wounds equals 1 zoanthrope gone. 4 wounds inflicted on that squad could STILL mean 2 dead lascannons (2 of them could be put on sarge and bolter but 2 HAVE to go onto 2 of the lascannons). 4 wounds inflicted on the zoanthropes results in less than 2 wounds resulting in NO loss of shots.

The lascannons are longer ranged but if the squad of marines gets bumped to 4 lascannons than for 40pts we could drop those zoanthropes in a pod and still be 10pts cheaper, range will no longer be much of an issue and inside of their range a S10 AP1 Lance is a lot deadlier than a S9 AP2 lascannon.

Oh, and against something like a colossus that is S6, AP3 ignoring cover guess who dies faster? If the template hits the marines that is more than likely 4 dead marines out of 5, if it hits the 3 zoanthropes that is once again a single wound.

So again, any shots of <S8 won't kill the zoanthropes any faster. S8+ will but the zoanthropes have a 3++ save all the time, those Devs have to be in cover and most times that is 4+; not to mention the zoanthrope rail gun can move and fire, Devs must stand still.

So I'll take Zoanthropes over a 4 Lascannon dev squad for 200 Alex.

what about pscycannons or the inquisitor with some mystics. that is going to destroy those zoans and they may not even get a shot off which was the whole point of the suicide strike. against marines they still can still take armour saves and as people said a unit of devs. isnt a priority target until it does something that makes it worth it. like getting a lucky roll and killing a raider or something like that

azimaith
18-01-2010, 07:35
That is a target prioritization a 5 year old could pick. There is nothing impressive about shooting enemy anti-tank with a shorter anti-tank range than you so they don't kill you tanks.
Making a target priority decision should have no intrinsic value in the codex. Zoanthropes are specialists who can't hide behind a squad of mooks to suck up wound for them.

We still have a fundamental disconnect between the anti-tank in 40k and anti-tank for the codex. Tyranids have a number of anti-tank choices, they're spoiled for them, but they're tied up in expensive MCs. Thus we pick out the cheapest choice we can find, the zoanthrope so we can make a list that's not 1/3rd dedicated to paying for your MC anti-tank. Combine this with the problems with extra armor and the mcs get even less desirable as anti-tank.

Until a tyranid codex comes out with relatively common weapons specifically made to allow MCs like the carnifex to eat a tank alive reliably as a lascannon can shoot one we will *always* be behind in anti-tank.

What anti-tank did we get here? We lost the venom cannons strength 10 and multiple shots for a blast effect, which is not helpful. The -1 is nice but its hardly a lascannon equivalent (except in price, of course.)

We got warp lance zoanthropes, they're great at anti-tank, so great at anti-tank and not so great at surviving the turns they need to get close in that they're also problematic.

Honestly, the best new anti-tank tyranids got was the trygon, throw furious charge on him and he can fleet after and eat tanks for a bargain price compared to a tyrant moving as fast. Same with the mawloc except the mawloc can damage most tanks on the way in as well.

Lictors could have fulfilled a good anti-tank role but they can't assault the turn they arrive which basically renders that mostly useless even with fleet. (You'll need to find a point where you're in cover and within 12" of an enemy tanks lowest armor.)

Meanwhile las devs and the like are still slinging out s9 ap2 shots at great ranges with solid hit averages. The problem isn't that tyranids isn't the amount, its the cost and the ease of use. The lascannon you point and shoot. The tyranids you've got to either be rolling for reserves, making psychic tests within 18" against psychic hoods, killing a -1 to damage rolls, or eating a turn of fire with a 5+ save. Tyranid anti-tank is *clumsy.*

alphastealer
18-01-2010, 07:38
Hi,

Getting back to gaunt survivability to bolters. If you take a Tervigon and a Venomthrope, then just park the venomthrope behind the tervigon and leave a thin trail of gaunts to keep one in range of the venomthrope. Now if the enemy want to negate this they will need to first drop the Tervigon, who will also now have a 5+ cover and I plan to give mine regenerate along with catalyst and toxin and adrenal and scything. Sure it is 200pts, but that block will be pain to get rid of. This becomes a high priority for the enemy to kill.

Add to this a brood of Zoanthrope in a spore and now there are 2 priority units.

Add a Tyranid Prime with a brood of deathspitter warriors, all of them also armed with lash and bone and you have priority target number 3.

That still leave enough points for the other half of the army.

My point here is that while stuff might cost more in this edition, it can also do more. Most of what tyranid players will be fielding will be priority targets, therefore you get target overload.

If something is not seen as a threat by your enemy then you have to accept that you are using it wrong and will suffer as your other 'priority' targets get more attention.

Most enemy players do not have enough shooting to drop 4-5 T6 monsterous creatures with regenerate.

As a last thought, regenerate is the new upgrade of choice. Sure we have lost 2+ saves and eternal warrior but all our big guys are T6 and can take regenerate. You only have to roll up once a game on a few of those to have negated a full turn of enemy shooting.

azimaith
18-01-2010, 07:53
Hang on what? If they want to negate it they shoot under your tervigon.

The zoanthropes in a spore are basically bait for everything that doesn't have long ranged guns.
The tyranid prime and his unit of warriors plus a single death spitter is ignorable for 3-4 turns.

They cost more, they do more, but they do more than we need. I don't need a hive tyrant with WS8 and re-rolled attacks, I need a hive tyrant I can take in 1500 and not be spending a quarter of the army. I don't need a carnifex that has 4 attacks and that gets more init on the charge, I need a carnifex that can either be made to take on things in hand to hand or at range without once again, costing me a huge chunk of points.

Things cost too much because they do too much, ask any space marine player, do they want a space marine for 15 points with its current statline or a space marine with 2 wounds, WS6, BS6 and 2 attacks that costs 30 points.

Vineas
18-01-2010, 07:58
what about pscycannons or the inquisitor with some mystics. that is going to destroy those zoans and they may not even get a shot off which was the whole point of the suicide strike. against marines they still can still take armour saves and as people said a unit of devs. isnt a priority target until it does something that makes it worth it. like getting a lucky roll and killing a raider or something like that

I don't face those so I cannot speak on their behalf. Then again the Marines I face are about 15% mech and not 100% like so many Marine armies so the problems of facing Mech in my circle is almost non-existent.

I plan to use a lictor and DL and any of the Marine players dumb enough to take devs against me will find them not being on the board for very long or suddenly having to shoot 4 anti-tank shots at a brood of lictors or a single leaper.

Vineas
18-01-2010, 08:01
Hang on what? If they want to negate it they shoot under your tervigon.

The zoanthropes in a spore are basically bait for everything that doesn't have long ranged guns.
The tyranid prime and his unit of warriors plus a single death spitter is ignorable for 3-4 turns.

They cost more, they do more, but they do more than we need. I don't need a hive tyrant with WS8 and re-rolled attacks, I need a hive tyrant I can take in 1500 and not be spending a quarter of the army. I don't need a carnifex that has 4 attacks and that gets more init on the charge, I need a carnifex that can either be made to take on things in hand to hand or at range without once again, costing me a huge chunk of points.

Things cost too much because they do too much, ask any space marine player, do they want a space marine for 15 points with its current statline or a space marine with 2 wounds, WS6, BS6 and 2 attacks that costs 30 points.

Surprisingly you'd find quite a few Marines wanting just that and willing to pay just that. Bad example.

I love me some Berserkers more than regular Chaos Marines. Not as versatile but can still fire off some bolt pistols, have the option for up to 3 plasma pistols and with WS5, S5 and I5 on the charge with 4 attacks each for 20 pts are a unit that makes me envy CSM players (though admittedly generic CSM are a good buy too).

azimaith
18-01-2010, 08:38
Surprisingly you'd find quite a few Marines wanting just that and willing to pay just that. Bad example.
And yet tyranids are on a unit that costs a minimum of 180 points for a weapon with less AP, worse damage rolls, and on worse BS (and one of the marine shots is on BS5 with devs)? How is this a bad example of why our anti-tank is retarded.

Vineas
18-01-2010, 08:51
What unit? Carnifex with VC or we still talking Zoanthropes?

Antitank shot is better AP, better damage roll (+1 for being ap1 and lance means LR's are armor 12 now so a 3+ to pen) and BS is still 4.

VC Carnifex I'll give you but an anti-infantry gun will have a lot easier time killing 5 devs than it will a single carnifex. 4W at T6 will be harder for a heavy bolter (even an ass cannon) to take off a carnifex than it will for that same HB to wound 3 marines (failed saves are equal at 33% of all wounds failed. Ass cannon wounds marines on 2's, needs 4's against a 'Fex. Not to mention even with a VC the carnifex is still smacking down 5 attacks on the charge. Dev's can't shoot their lascannons and charge, not to mention any unit that doesn't contain a fist or hammers will have a lot harder time winning a combat against a carnifex than it will against devs.

Vexbane
18-01-2010, 12:07
I am going to agree with the sentiment that our MC's are overpriced because they do so much. I would rather be able to tailor my MC's like last edition for either ranged or CC and they not cost as much.

I will admit I thought fex's and tyrants were underpriced and deserved a hike, not double+ the points though.

I am trying to make a 1k list and am finding it hard to get all of the synergy I need. Even at 1500pts it is tough. It seems that our book is designed for lists 1750pts+

Anti-tank has always been a nid weakness and my guess is will continue to be. In games where I could not shake/stun tanks semi-reliably(sp?) I lost most of the time. I still think zoas have a use in the list and we gained a nice transport popper/light tank unit. Hive guard will be a staple in any list IMO so you might as well consider only having 2 elite slots.

The Fex's did take a big hit. I will have to be de-arming my gunfexes and I did not use magnets:( I want to use a podded screamer killer, but the trygon seems better in all respects?. I think the dakka fex still is dangerous(expensive) anti-infantry unit. Though not nearly as good as before. I knew they would fix the devourer rules though.

Tervigon's are a great unit as well. Being able to spit out and buff gaunts and other units is great. At around 200ish points though a little expensive. I will say these are costed correctly imo for what they do.

catbarf
18-01-2010, 14:34
How are 5 Devs more survivable than 3 zoanthropes.

5 Devs x 4 lascannons is also 230pts, 3 zoanthropes is 180. So for 195 we could take 3 lascannons in the dev squad.

Against anything not S8 or higher it'll take more to kill the zoanthropes than it will 5 devs. 6 wounds vs 5 wounds. 3 Zoanthropes is 15pts cheaper than that dev squad, same save.

The advantage the marine has is that the sergeant is an ablative wound for the lascannons but once the sarge is dead 2 unsaved wounds equals 2 lascannons gone, 2 unsaved <8 wounds equals 1 zoanthrope gone. 4 wounds inflicted on that squad could STILL mean 2 dead lascannons (2 of them could be put on sarge and bolter but 2 HAVE to go onto 2 of the lascannons). 4 wounds inflicted on the zoanthropes results in less than 2 wounds resulting in NO loss of shots.

The lascannons are longer ranged but if the squad of marines gets bumped to 4 lascannons than for 40pts we could drop those zoanthropes in a pod and still be 10pts cheaper, range will no longer be much of an issue and inside of their range a S10 AP1 Lance is a lot deadlier than a S9 AP2 lascannon.

Oh, and against something like a colossus that is S6, AP3 ignoring cover guess who dies faster? If the template hits the marines that is more than likely 4 dead marines out of 5, if it hits the 3 zoanthropes that is once again a single wound.

So again, any shots of <S8 won't kill the zoanthropes any faster. S8+ will but the zoanthropes have a 3++ save all the time, those Devs have to be in cover and most times that is 4+; not to mention the zoanthrope rail gun can move and fire, Devs must stand still.

So I'll take Zoanthropes over a 4 Lascannon dev squad for 200 Alex.

The Zoanthropes are very short-ranged, exposing them to enemy fire. As well, given that much of the firepower headed their way will be high-S attacks, it's not unreasonable to expect a lot of Instant Death.


If my opponent is smart enough to pick them out than good on him for prioritizing right. IG have lots of 48+ inch ranged weapons to kill devs with.

If I drop in 3 zoanthropes at 180 pts and wreck or immobilize or explode a LR than even if they die immediately they've done their job.

I've seen Las devs used and I'm just not impressed with them. If I ran marines I'd take HB's or ML's over Las any day (even against other marines).

Not to mention 180pts gets me 3 S5 Ap3 template shots. So long as you don't scatter much or roll to many 11 or 12 ld rolls that is a lot of hurt on a squad, even in cover.

Tyranid elite is packed but I could take 2 units of 3 and still have room for Hive Guard. Not many marine players I know sacrifice more valuable heavy slot choices.

Those 3 Zoanthropes are not by any means guaranteed to destroy the Land Raider- and if they don't, which is more likely than not, they'll get obliterated without coming anywhere close to recouping their cost. Devastators can hang around your backfield, and if they fail to kill the Land Raider on any given turn they can try again on the next.

Suicide squads work in Guard because they're cheap. 200pts is a huge investment for a squad that is not by any means guaranteed to destroy the target.

boreas
18-01-2010, 15:02
It's incredible the amount of whining this codex is producing...

Phil

Vepr
18-01-2010, 15:09
It's incredible the amount of whining this codex is producing...

Phil

I think it is because this codex appears to be rather lack luster compared to the last two codices. It is not bad but it is not good either. Time might prove otherwise but right now it looks like nids are the worst 5th edition codex.

It is funny that there were no cries of "cheese" when the nids came out like other codices. In most cases when people cry "cheese" it is shown that the unit is not nearly as good as first thought or it is good but not over powered due to cost. Other than some grumbling about the Tervigon no one is worried about the nid dex. Some people are pointing that out as balance but others are saying that is a sign of weakness. Time will tell.

Vineas
18-01-2010, 19:52
I think it's a lot of knee-jerkery due to assumption based on looking at stats.

We all heard and saw the cries of SW being broken and yet reading bat rep threads all over the web the wolves, even the most uber of builds, aren't that OTT.

catbarf
18-01-2010, 20:03
It's been a while since people looked at a new codex before its release and decided that it is underpowered.

Dead Man Walking
18-01-2010, 20:43
I have to say I am not impressed by this book. Tyrants cost too much and you have to give up survivability to get them into action fast (wings). Most things have no assault grenades which wastes your init 5+. The things that are now effective are exactly what I don't have and if it comes down to it and I have to buy a whole new army then why don't I buy one thats actually far more useful?