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Avatar of the Eldar
17-01-2010, 16:48
Hey compadres,

I was talking gaming with a friend the other day and he used the term "wackyhammer". What's interesting is that I've read that term in a couple of recent threads here. More curious still, he's completely out of WFB and doesn't read these or any other Warhammer boards. (Side note: He was a multiple GT winner and GW play-tester who got exasperated with the direction of the game.)

So I'm curious if there's a commonly understood definition for this. I can certainly infer a meaning or meanings. But I'd like to hear from you all what it means to you.

Avian - I think it was you I read mention it in one of the Beastmen threads.

Expound!

Mods - Please move to General Discussion if you see fit.

Avian
17-01-2010, 17:23
Stuff becomes both more random and more deadly.

The Hellpit Abomination from the Skaven book is a good example of Wackyhammer. Expect more in this vein.

yorch
17-01-2010, 17:32
Stuff becomes both more random and more deadly.

The Hellpit Abomination from the Skaven book is a good example of Wackyhammer. Expect more in this vein.

That is indeed a VERY bad thing... :(

Witchblade
17-01-2010, 17:44
That is indeed a VERY bad thing... :(
I second this...

druchii7
17-01-2010, 17:56
like hellpit abomination? will my gnoblar do D6 impact hits when charge?:D

Avatar of the Eldar
17-01-2010, 18:22
Stuff becomes both more random and more deadly.

The Hellpit Abomination from the Skaven book is a good example of Wackyhammer. Expect more in this vein.

Thanks, Avian.

That was my general understanding. That and more monstrous creatures with lots of special/random rules. Wheeee! Another reason I enjoy WotR. Massed fantasy battles with predominantly formations of troops and magic and monsters only as support/enhancements.

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-01-2010, 18:45
It's secretly a rumour about the upcoming edition. It won't actually be Warhammer: 8th Edition. Instead it will be called. Wackyhammer. This it to more accurately portray what's actually inside the cover.

sulla
17-01-2010, 19:29
like hellpit abomination? will my gnoblar do D6 impact hits when charge?:DTo themselves, maybe...

Spiney Norman
17-01-2010, 20:42
Stuff becomes both more random and more deadly.

The Hellpit Abomination from the Skaven book is a good example of Wackyhammer. Expect more in this vein.

Oh dear, can I assume we can expect more random movement, random attacks etc? and to think this used to be a game about tactics. Are we really going back to the dark age of games decided solely by dice rolling?

Crube
17-01-2010, 20:50
Thread moved to WFB General



Crube
The Warseer Inquisition

Condottiere
17-01-2010, 21:08
Sounds like we now are playing a game of Craps; not all armies are archetyped as randomized results.

Unuhexium
17-01-2010, 22:06
I dread the day when Monopoly will have more tactical depth than Warhammer.

Fredrik
17-01-2010, 22:07
Maby they should just rename it kid-hammer fantasy and kid-hammer 40k while they are at it. I for one also perfer more tactic and less mindless random rolls determening the outcome.

Before we know it they Will take away guessrange just like 40k becase todays kids are to lasy/ stupid to bother with learning to estimate a range. Sigh

Agoz
17-01-2010, 22:58
Maby they should just rename it kid-hammer fantasy and kid-hammer 40k while they are at it. I for one also perfer more tactic and less mindless random rolls determening the outcome.

Before we know it they Will take away guessrange just like 40k becase todays kids are to lasy/ stupid to bother with learning to estimate a range. Sigh

wouldn't doing away with the guess range rules decrease the amount of randomness in the game rather than increase it? And therefore be the opposite of the topic? hmmmm...

As to the increase in randomness, wasn't it a complaint before that skaven weren't random enough, that ratling guns were too reliable? And now theres a complaint that they are too random?

ChrisSmith
17-01-2010, 23:00
I dread the day when Monopoly will have more tactical depth than Warhammer.

Some may argue that day has been and gone. ;)

Spiney Norman
18-01-2010, 01:25
wouldn't doing away with the guess range rules decrease the amount of randomness in the game rather than increase it? And therefore be the opposite of the topic? hmmmm...

As to the increase in randomness, wasn't it a complaint before that skaven weren't random enough, that ratling guns were too reliable? And now theres a complaint that they are too random?

Heck no, quite the reverse actually, what you do to make it random is give all stone throwers a firing distance of 4D6 for every shot and just hope they hit something. Anything that gives control of whats happening back to the player is definitely not random.

Bloodknight
18-01-2010, 01:29
Stuff becomes both more random and more deadly.

The Hellpit Abomination from the Skaven book is a good example of Wackyhammer. Expect more in this vein.

I am rapidly losing interest in WFB if this is what WFB is going to become.
I, however, hope there's a lot in the bush that's better be good.

Agoz
18-01-2010, 01:54
Heck no, quite the reverse actually, what you do to make it random is give all stone throwers a firing distance of 4D6 for every shot and just hope they hit something. Anything that gives control of whats happening back to the player is definitely not random.

I'm not sure what you mean, I didn't say that getting rid of the guess range rules would mean that it would have a random range, I was saying that using the 40k guess weapon rules would give the player even more control over where a shot lands, and so would be even less random, especially for new players, or those who are forgetfull (me)

ChaosVC
18-01-2010, 04:02
Once charges are change to "add d6 inch" **** this **** and lets call it warhammer 41k. truly wacky hammered.

Agoz
18-01-2010, 04:44
I think its a bit soon to jump to conclusions, Skaven have always been a random army, and I haven't even had a chance to look at the beastman book yet. To apply randomness to everything from now on is a little pre-emptive.

Duke Georgal
18-01-2010, 04:52
I dread the day when Monopoly will have more tactical depth than Warhammer.

If the first three or four trips around the board produce a balanced division of property, Monopoly has much more depth than an game of Warhammer. The problem I have with Monopoly is that if one player gets a low dollar color set early, he can dominate the game easily. This happens way too often.

Tolinwiz
18-01-2010, 04:56
So we're basing wackyhammer on one or two units in the entirety of the universe of Warhammer?

Agoz
18-01-2010, 04:57
So we're basing wackyhammer on one or two units in the entirety of the universe of Warhammer?

That does seem to be whats happening, a little silly, no?

Razakel
18-01-2010, 06:52
I don't mind a few random units, except in Orcs & Goblins where every unit is a barrel of laughs. I'd like to see a few more random things in the Dwarf army, I don't know what exactly.

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-01-2010, 08:28
So we're basing wackyhammer on one or two units in the entirety of the universe of Warhammer?

I'd call it a trend in development more than specific units.

Of course the Skaven army is more guilty of this than most, having effects that only trigger on the third double of the second tuesday of every month and things like that but there does seem to be more of that in the game now.


As for OnG if Barrels of Laughs equals futilely struggling to have a meaningful impact then yes :p

Agoz
18-01-2010, 09:14
I'd still call the skaven book an isolated incident, skaven are supposed to be unreliable, thats just the way they are, the same goes with Orcs and goblins, and its not like there haven't been plenty of overly reliable armies coming out lately. If you want a prime example of a completely non-random army, just look at warriors of chaos, or vampire counts, or even lizardmen, the options are plentiful, and still fairly fresh.

Sygerrik
18-01-2010, 19:09
I don't get a lot of the complaints that the game is less "tactical" than it used to be. My guess is most of you making that complaint didn't play in 5th edition. There is nothing "tactical" about the Gnarasus, the Purple Sun/Staff of Volans, the T10 rune, or the 60 attack chaos lord.

I like some randomness. Games with dice have always, always, always been about playing the odds, reducing risk, and compensating for unexpected events. That's called tactical flexibility and it's the hallmark of all of history's greatest generals.

Jormi_Boced
18-01-2010, 19:12
If the first three or four trips around the board produce a balanced division of property, Monopoly has much more depth than an game of Warhammer. The problem I have with Monopoly is that if one player gets a low dollar color set early, he can dominate the game easily. This happens way too often.

Are you serious?

Fredrik
18-01-2010, 19:30
I agree that the dice randomness should not be removed. but there is a differance between keeping flavour guess range weapons scatter after you try to use skill to hit the mark, taking randomness in to account. And just placing a blastmarker with no skill what so ever and rolling a scatter dice.

That is the randomness I would like to keep out, the just random, skill doen´t matter what so ever. For me warhammer is about getting the odds in your favour by using tactics then **** happens ;), instead of just randomly rolling for everything with little to no way to effect the outcome.

Besides there are way to keep "random" balanced. Look at the giant (orc, chaos or slave) then look at the hellpit, does anyone actually belive that the giant is even close to worth his points in any army he is (or will be in beastmens case) present.

Atleast keep all the freaky stuff on par with each other then the will balance out, sort of.

09Project
18-01-2010, 19:43
I have nothing against units with random movement or attacks, end of the day, they still choices you get to make and you have to work around that. Chaos spawn etc are good fun and well sometimes, they not going to work as you hoped forcing a reaction.

Orcs and Goblins the same, really, you have to want to play OnG to buy the army as you should know what you getting, without Animosity they would be an average army really, with it they just weird, but all OnG players I know play them precisely for that reason. Skaven also have grand unpredicatability built in to them which we expect to be there if we are honest with ourselves, they aren't the height of efficiency.

The Hellpitabomination I think is not a problem due to its random dice rolls it more a pain in that they seemed to want to make it reasonably unkillable and I may suggest a bit of a bargin points wise.

Giants must be feeling a bit let down, but still Giants are fun and if fun is a part of your games more than tournament competition, a giant provides good value.

Essentially armies having these random units is a good thing, they provide a choice for players to make, don't want to hold a flank with that random movement spawn, take something else, enjoy giants falling over walls add one to your list. Want to annoy your opponent take as many HPAbominations as you can!

If random movement/attack units are making warhammer wackyhammer well... it does seem an over-reaction. In appropiate areas and balanced correctly, units with random bits to them add to the game, in my opinion.

Oh and Giants are fun!

Really, they are.

Agoz
18-01-2010, 20:50
I don't really know if comparing the hellpit to the giant is a good comparison, As far as I can remember, the giant has never exactly been that strong a unit choice, its like comparing new armies with ogre kingdoms, its not a fair comparison because ogre units are overpriced and underpowered to begin with. I will agree that the hellpit is too good for its points, but I will also say that the giant is not good enough for it's points, and its starting to show it's age.

Chain
18-01-2010, 21:04
I'm greatful for diversion in the game

My main issue about 6'th edition was how similar every army had become, 7'th edition have been more to my liking though i dislike the inbalance.

Though in a way that imbalance makes for more of a chalange if you play a weaker race and in that way it could be good. Also power balance is known to change in reallity to after all.

But to many addition dice throws could slow the game the same way as an over active soccer judge can ruin a game of soccer.

N1AK
18-01-2010, 22:02
Before we know it they Will take away guessrange just like 40k becase todays kids are to lasy/ stupid to bother with learning to estimate a range. Sigh

Or because the fact that the accuracy of a miniature in a fantasy wargame shouldn't be decided by the distance estimating ability of the player. My friends a world class martial artist, should his Elves be better in hth? I was one of the best shots in my region can I get easier to hit rolls with handguns?

There are plenty of things that could change in a bad way, dropping things that don't relate to players strategical or tactical ability isn't one of them.

outbreak
18-01-2010, 23:31
What irks me the most is the wackyness they are adding isn't even humourous. If something's going to be stupid and wacky it should at least make me chuckle and add to the character of the game. Warhammer used to have alot more tongue in cheek humour then today's game does.

Stronginthearm
19-01-2010, 02:35
Or because the fact that the accuracy of a miniature in a fantasy wargame shouldn't be decided by the distance estimating ability of the player. My friends a world class martial artist, should his Elves be better in hth? I was one of the best shots in my region can I get easier to hit rolls with handguns?

There are plenty of things that could change in a bad way, dropping things that don't relate to players strategical or tactical ability isn't one of them.

Unfair comparison, if you want to remove all those types of factors go play flip a coin (heads win tails loose) providing background should have an impact, I am a statistician, and know odds off hand, that helps, I can paint well, that helps overall score, I am great with people that helps sportsmanship, (I am none of these and tends to guess range based on random numbers off a paper) background knowledge is what makes the person a better general, a person playing for 5 years should have an advantage over a person playing one week, and just because they know disatnces doesnt change the damage of the cannon or the likelyhood of it to explode

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2010, 02:47
its like comparing new armies with ogre kingdoms, its not a fair comparison because ogre units are overpriced and underpowered to begin with.Hey, my Ogres resent that!

Poseidal
19-01-2010, 09:36
Two units I would probably describe as wacky are the aformentioned Abomination and the Giant.

Of the two, I would actually say the giant is the wackier of the two but reciebes far less complaints.

I would say the Abomination's price, bonus abilities like impact hits, faster movement and higher durability are more of a cause of yelling and bawling than the wackiness.

Condottiere
19-01-2010, 10:01
Giants aren't too bad, their cost is just sufficient to ask yourself if he's worth taking along, in preference to a cheaper cannon.

Tokamak
27-01-2010, 14:24
Are you serious?

Don't you follow the leagues? :wtf:

Qemist
27-01-2010, 17:30
Thanks, Avian.

That was my general understanding. That and more monstrous creatures with lots of special/random rules. Wheeee! Another reason I enjoy WotR. Massed fantasy battles with predominantly formations of troops and magic and monsters only as support/enhancements.

seriously? so wotr isnt atall imbalanced by the insane characters?

its a fun game, for sure, but id rather fight against a hpa than some of the retarded characters(or combinations of) with broken rules in wotr.

Warp-Juicer
27-01-2010, 19:26
Um, you guys know that there was a bunch of strange and random things back in the day, right?

Condottiere
27-01-2010, 20:07
When designers were allowed to have a sense of humour.