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Lord Asgul
18-01-2010, 10:07
This isn't a "what happened etc" thread. I've already done one of those threads :D. This is a thread on my personal theory about what happened to them.

2nd Legion

The Primarch of this legion appeared/crashed on a technologically advanced world, maybe still on the level of Golden Age of Technology. He was brought up in a lab wherein he was subjected to all kind of tests and such. Eventually he broke free and somehow rose up to dominance over the world's populace. When the Great Crusade came crashing through his world's system, he fought against his own legion (maybe he saw what would happen to the Imperium in the end), his army had superior tech and wiped the fleet and the entire legion out OR the Legion may have joined the Primarch against the Imperium and successfully held off against any further attack from them. The system was sanctioned off and all records of it expunged from history.

11th Legion

Primarch of this legion was found on a backwater planet where he was raised fighting whatever oppression was on that planet (evil overlord, corrupt governments, C.S Goto's descendants, etc). He was reunited with his Legion. This Legion may have seen a lot of fighting on the eastern fringe. Possibly they were lost when they attempted to bring world's just outside of the astronomicon's range into the Imperium and were lost in the warp; which may mean they could come back one day. Another little theory could be that they chased a dangerous enemy beyond the astronomicon's threshold and became lost or captured by a more advanced enemy which lay beyond...in the void.

Burnthem
18-01-2010, 10:30
Fan Fic Fail.

Lord Asgul
18-01-2010, 10:51
I also think if one were to put all the specialisations of each of the 18 Legions down, you possibly could work out what the 2 missing legions specialised in. Perhaps also what the Primarchs could have been like.

Also, its not fan fiction because I haven't written a story about, it is merely thoughts that have popped into my head, I just thought it would have been good to share those thoughts with others who may or may not like it.

Max1mum
18-01-2010, 11:16
Both those theories have no reason in it why they would be stricken from the records.

A primarch and his legion that went traitor ? ...7 others could do it without anybody whiping them from the pages of history.

A primarch and his Legion "lost" or "destroyed" ...other legions and fleets would go look for them, more would be known. And no reason again to strike them from the records.

- edit

and several Legions have/had the same speciality.

What would that tell us ? ...how would that shed any light on this particulair mistery.

Bassline
18-01-2010, 11:27
Knowlegde is what might of got them removed from the records, sure some chapters went to chaos but they can deal with that with bullets. But knowledge you can not shoot and is as destroy. They might of found out a dark secret maybe the emperor had a dark dark secret and if people knew about it could cause the down fall of the imperium. They all ready do this with the secret of daemons.

Lord Asgul
18-01-2010, 11:29
Both those theories have no reason in it why they would be stricken from the records.

A primarch and his legion that went traitor ? ...7 others could do it without anybody whiping them from the pages of history.

A primarch and his Legion "lost" or "destroyed" ...other legions and fleets would go look for them, more would be known. And no reason again to strike them from the records.

- edit

and several Legions have/had the same speciality.

What would that tell us ? ...how would that shed any light on this particulair mistery.

I would say that the 2nd Primarch didn't necessarily go traitor when he didn't actually believe in the Imperial Truth in the first place, so saying that he did would be wrong, however I see that his Legion joining him would be seen as going Traitor, then again maybe the Emperor didn't want to kill his son, he thought that possibly he would join the Imperium in his own time.

The 11th Primarch may be lost, in which case the Emperor, in his grief, decided that the Legion should be struck from the records as it would make the Space Marine Legions look falliable, which wouldn't be a good look for them because the enemies of the Imperium would be saying "hey, they lost an entire Legion? They aren't really that scary if they can get lost".

The Legion did have different specialites. The only ones, that I can think of, that had similar specialities were the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists. However I think the Iron Warriors were the consumate masters of setting up fortifications and generally defending, where as the Imperial Fists were better at laying siege to fortresses etc.

Lord Asgul
18-01-2010, 11:33
Knowlegde is what might of got them removed from the records, sure some chapters went to chaos but they can deal with that with bullets. But knowledge you can not shoot and is as destroy. They might of found out a dark secret maybe the emperor had a dark dark secret and if people knew about it could cause the down fall of the imperium. They all ready do this with the secret of daemons.

Which is a very good point because knowledge can be passed around, however knowing the Legion names and Primarchs wouldn't be expunged for that? That is why I thought it would be something that would be embarrassing for the Emperor and the Imperium on the whole that could also be seen as a tragedy too. How tragic would it be if a son didn't join his father on a great crusade? Or a father losing his son in an area where no-one would be willing to go?

Condottiere
18-01-2010, 11:37
I don't think that by using the process of elimination you will obtain details on the two Legions, since that assumes the creators had mapped out all of the twenty Legions, giving each it's individual characteristics.

Bassline
18-01-2010, 11:43
Which is a very good point because knowledge can be passed around, however knowing the Legion names and Primarchs wouldn't be expunged for that? That is why I thought it would be something that would be embarrassing for the Emperor and the Imperium on the whole that could also be seen as a tragedy too. How tragic would it be if a son didn't join his father on a great crusade? Or a father losing his son in an area where no-one would be willing to go?

Having a name for something causes alot of things to happen. First you have your imagination think up things. Good example when your a kid your pet hamster dies but your parents say he has gone to sleep and your like ok :) and do not feel upset or anything, later on in your life your gran parents die and your parents tell you the truth about death. You then have in your head about death and how you will die (every human thinks of it some time) causing these emotions. So the word death is so different to gone to sleep. This could be why they where removed knowing a name of something could led you into thinking about it and researching about it (like last year with the big conference of scientists trying to prove if god existed if no one ever used the word god then that would not of happened).

Now in 40k emoitions cause alot of things to happen mainly in the warp. What if what ever these guys knew or where named caused something mighty in the warp like a new god to appear and be stronger then the 3 current gods (there is 4 gods i know but the 4th one never existed and all ways existed and in the warp time is >_>;) if the imperial saw this could be so dangerous they would try to remove all knowledge of those 2 legions

Lord Asgul
18-01-2010, 12:39
I don't think that by using the process of elimination you will obtain details on the two Legions, since that assumes the creators had mapped out all of the twenty Legions, giving each it's individual characteristics.

I believe that all the Legions had aspects of their Primarchs, and all the Primarchs were an aspect of the Emperor's person. As in Angron would personify the Emperor's Anger, Fulgrim would be the Emperor's desire for perfection, Russ would be the Emperor's tenacity and possibly his (very repressed) gluttony, Sanguinus would be the Emperor's hope given a very literal form (an angel), Magnus would be the Emperor's psychic prowess, Alpharius Omegon would be the Emperor's secretive nature, Gulliman would be the civilised side of the Emperor, Dorn would be the arrogant part of the Emperor, Mortarion would be the resilient side of the Emperor, Konrad would be the Emperor's brutality, Lorgar would be the devotion part of the Emperor (more in devoted to his work, not a god) and so on.


Having a name for something causes alot of things to happen. First you have your imagination think up things. Good example when your a kid your pet hamster dies but your parents say he has gone to sleep and your like ok :) and do not feel upset or anything, later on in your life your gran parents die and your parents tell you the truth about death. You then have in your head about death and how you will die (every human thinks of it some time) causing these emotions. So the word death is so different to gone to sleep. This could be why they where removed knowing a name of something could led you into thinking about it and researching about it (like last year with the big conference of scientists trying to prove if god existed if no one ever used the word god then that would not of happened).

Now in 40k emoitions cause alot of things to happen mainly in the warp. What if what ever these guys knew or where named caused something mighty in the warp like a new god to appear and be stronger then the 3 current gods (there is 4 gods i know but the 4th one never existed and all ways existed and in the warp time is >_>;) if the imperial saw this could be so dangerous they would try to remove all knowledge of those 2 legions

I do agree with this, and a very valid point which can help any theory at all because no-one knows what happened to them. I just wanted to get people to have a think and actually come up with a warseer wide theory of the 2 missing legions so that there would be no more "2 missing legions" thread popping up anymore. If we can come up with one, even just for warseer forums, we would be able to stop anymore. :)

Max1mum
18-01-2010, 14:11
I would say that the 2nd Primarch didn't necessarily go traitor when he didn't actually believe in the Imperial Truth in the first place, so saying that he did would be wrong, however I see that his Legion joining him would be seen as going Traitor, then again maybe the Emperor didn't want to kill his son, he thought that possibly he would join the Imperium in his own time.

This makes no sense what so ever,

If the Primarch would not join the Emperor, why would the emperor give him a legion? The bonds of loyalty between a legion and a primarch had to grow over time. They where far from instantly formed.

And I repeat, 7 other legions turned traitor, together with their primarchs. These legions have not been stricken from the records.



The 11th Primarch may be lost, in which case the Emperor, in his grief, decided that the Legion should be struck from the records as it would make the Space Marine Legions look fallible, which wouldn't be a good look for them because the enemies of the Imperium would be saying "hey, they lost an entire Legion? They aren't really that scary if they can get lost"...

...right, so its oke for the enemies of man kind to know that 7 legions have been lost to the emperor and his creed. But it's not oke to know that 1 legion was lost to the emperor. It's oke to know that the bonds of loyalty in the empire are so thin that half of it can turn on the other halve in the blink of a eye. Again, the reasoning makes no sense ;-)



The Legion did have different specialites. The only ones, that I can think of, that had similar specialities were the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists. However I think the Iron Warriors were the consumate masters of setting up fortifications and generally defending, where as the Imperial Fists were better at laying siege to fortresses etc.

Actually, the Imperial Fists are considered to be the best at defending. A fellow Primarch of mr Dorn said this about the matter : "the best in attack matched by the best in defense". The best in attacking being the Lunar Wolves and the best in defense being the Imperial Fists


I don't think that by using the process of elimination you will obtain details on the two Legions, since that assumes the creators had mapped out all of the twenty Legions, giving each it's individual characteristics.

And we known that the legions their development had not been planned out, at least not so far that the emperor knew what would happen after turning the legions over to his sons. All the legions changed after being reunited with their Primarchs. And the primarchs had been changed in a way that emperor could never have planned for due to being separate from the emperor for so long..[/QUOTE]


Having a name for something causes alot of things to happen. First you have your imagination think up things. Good example when your a kid your pet hamster dies but your parents say he has gone to sleep and your like ok :) and do not feel upset or anything, later on in your life your gran parents die and your parents tell you the truth about death. You then have in your head about death and how you will die (every human thinks of it some time) causing these emotions. So the word death is so different to gone to sleep. This could be why they where removed knowing a name of something could led you into thinking about it and researching about it (like last year with the big conference of scientists trying to prove if god existed if no one ever used the word god then that would not of happened).. I'm sure that the records have been purged to hide something, but we will never know what it is. Certainly not from blind assumptions.



Now in 40k emoitions cause alot of things to happen mainly in the warp. What if what ever these guys knew or where named caused something mighty in the warp like a new god to appear and be stronger then the 3 current gods (there is 4 gods i know but the 4th one never existed and all ways existed and in the warp time is >_>;) if the imperial saw this could be so dangerous they would try to remove all knowledge of those 2 legions

...?! this makes even less sense then most of what has been posted. I'm sorry but it really makes no sense what so ever. Why do i say that it makes no sense ?.

First of all, nobody knew of the chaos gods, the first sightings of daemons and chaos gods have been clearly explained in the horus heresy books. Dorn knew exactly what happend to these two lost legions who have been 'lost to to us forever'( a advisor of dorn said that ) Since Dorn knew nothing of chaos at that time, it could not have been chaos responsible for the demise of these legions.

And, it took the entire Eldar race to generate the fourth Chaos god. A race who literally controlled the galaxy, mankind hasn’t even controlled the galaxy, they never managed that.


I believe that all the Legions had aspects of their Primarchs, and all the Primarchs were an aspect of the Emperor's person. As in Angron would personify the Emperor's Anger, Fulgrim would be the Emperor's desire for perfection, Russ would be the Emperor's tenacity and possibly his (very repressed) gluttony, Sanguinus would be the Emperor's hope given a very literal form (an angel), Magnus would be the Emperor's psychic prowess, Alpharius Omegon would be the Emperor's secretive nature, Gulliman would be the civilised side of the Emperor, Dorn would be the arrogant part of the Emperor, Mortarion would be the resilient side of the Emperor, Konrad would be the Emperor's brutality, Lorgar would be the devotion part of the Emperor (more in devoted to his work, not a god) and so on.

...Sanguinius his looks are a mutation...caused by him being shipped of by the chaos gods while he was but a invent. The emperor certainly did not design it like that. Just like how Angron's implants where not a design, or Lemon Russ his feral instincts where not a design.
Or Magnus the reds Third eye was not a design, or alpha legions primarchs where not a design.

The Emperor certainly imbued certain parts of him into his primarchs. But their personality has been formed by there childhoods, all of them wildly different and hugely influential. Far to influential for you to simply ignore them in your reasoning.



I do agree with this, and a very valid point which can help any theory at all because no-one knows what happened to them. I just wanted to get people to have a think and actually come up with a warseer wide theory of the 2 missing legions so that there would be no more "2 missing legions" thread popping up anymore. If we can come up with one, even just for warseer forums, we would be able to stop anymore. :)

So you want us to fill in the blanks as to what happened ?
By guessing ? ....Basically that's what you want us to do. At the very least you are ignoring massive amounts of fluff in your reasoning.

Ammutseba
18-01-2010, 15:44
Personally I think we're over-thinking this.

What if they landed on the same planet, had their own power bases independent of each other, came into conflict and ended up destroying each other. That would be a perfect excuse to expunge the records;

1. Showing Primarchs can Die.

2. Showing that they may not necessarily be immune to in-fighting.

That being said, they expunge them from the records so that imperial citizenry don't lose faith in their leaders, who know the truth (Emperor and Primarchs)

When the heresy happens it's so big and so blatant that instead of a cover-up, the imperium uses it to galvanize it's people and give them an enemy and therefore...a common goal.

Lord Asgul
18-01-2010, 15:45
Personally I think we're over-thinking this.

What if they landed on the same planet, had their own power bases independent of each other, came into conflict and ended up destroying each other. That would be a perfect excuse to expunge the records;

1. Showing Primarchs can Die.

2. Showing that they may not necessarily be immune to in-fighting.

That being said, they expunge them from the records so that imperial citizenry don't lose faith in their leaders, who know the truth (Emperor and Primarchs)

When the heresy happens it's so big and so blatant that instead of a cover-up, the imperium uses it to galvanize it's people and give them an enemy and therefore...a common goal.


I actually agree with this.

Ammutseba
18-01-2010, 16:03
I'm a fluff fanatic. This makes the most sense. Like a dry run for Chaos to see if they can try it for a larger scale.

pookie
18-01-2010, 16:10
@ Max1mum - dont you mean 9 went traitor, why 7? am i missing something?

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
18-01-2010, 16:47
My own theory about the two "missing" legions is that they give birth to far too many threads, whose contributions are almost non-existent, considering all the stuff already stored in the fixed post.
WE KNOW THERE'S NO ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION. WHY NOT JUST ACCEPTING IT?

Max1mum
18-01-2010, 19:06
@ Pookie - i'm talking about the first proper 7 traitors.

Thousands Sons and Alpha Legion some how don't fall into the same mix as the other 7. Different story's, same end result.

And Cromwell's point is also fantastic ;-) :D

chub
18-01-2010, 19:28
i know the mystery of the two missing legions.

so if youre sitting comfortably i will begin.
A long time ago a small british company invented a strange game with "knights" and aliens in it, they even went on to invent numerous alien races and a potential 20 different "knight" legions and all was well in the world. that was until mr X stood up and said "what happens, if in the future we become a big multinational company with a massive fan base?" well understandably everyone was stunned, a big multinational british company in the 80's ha what a joke. so mr Y stood up and said whilst trying to stifle the giggles "i know we will strike the 2nd and 11th "knight legion of the list this will allow both us to produce more ideas when neccesary and will give all the future fanboys out there something to discuss and discuss even though there is no real answer" everyone was in agreement so warhammer 40k was born

THE END

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
18-01-2010, 19:35
@chub:
Best theory I've ever seen.

Max1mum
19-01-2010, 06:40
@ Chub..

what the hell man..

your talking about this stuff as if it's fictional ....

pookie
19-01-2010, 10:46
@ Pookie - i'm talking about the first proper 7 traitors.

Thousands Sons and Alpha Legion some how don't fall into the same mix as the other 7. Different story's, same end result.

And Cromwell's point is also fantastic ;-) :D

well i can see your point.

But in the established fluff, theres no difference, the end results are still they were excommunicated Tratoris ( or how ever they say it ) hence me syaing there are 9 Traitor Legions.

Max1mum
19-01-2010, 13:24
Offcourse ;-) That much is clear without a shadow of a doubt.

..i'm still upset somebody thinks this is al fictional :S :P

chub
22-01-2010, 19:17
sorry if the idea that it might be fictional upsets you Max1mum i didnt mean it:angel:

*note to self dont mention that santa isnt real either*

Obyri
23-01-2010, 08:00
Do you know the really scary thing. The Easter Bunny IS real, but he aint no cuddly wabbit delivering eggs.

He has tasted human flesh, and hungers for more. just look into the eyes of your pet bunny and see the horror and abysal terror that lurks behind them.

Suffer not the bunny to live.

On-topic: Everyone should just let go of the 2 legions. As im sure has been stated they were placed originaly as a game dynaic so that people could create their own legions. The real truth behind the 2 missing primarchs will never be told by GW and in all liklihood, they haven't got a frickin clue either. It is simply an infinite thread for 40K players to grab hold of and unravel for all time.

Probably every concievable idea for what happened to them has been discussed ad nauseum and borne absolutely no fruit. They are gone / never existed so just let them be.

Lord Asgul
23-01-2010, 11:17
Aye that be true. I shall leave them to whatever fate they had :P

I think I shot the easter bunny last year, but he got back up :( I think he has the FNP special rule

Lord Malorne
23-01-2010, 11:35
Fan Fic Fail.

Quoted for truth.

phoenix01
26-01-2010, 06:15
Here's my take on the 2nd Primarch (I used this for my army's fluff):

One of your sons will betray you, milord…

Last words of Miletus Taliesinus
Chief Archivist of the Imperium of Man
Said to the Emperor of Mankind
M29.235


The dark years of the Age of Strife were finally over. Man had finally been unified under one leader, and the warp storms that surrounded Holy Terra for millennia finally diminished. The newly crowned Emperor of Mankind, flushed with the glories of his success, envisioned a great dream of a vast galactic empire. To assist in its rule, the Emperor planned the creation of twenty genetic children: the Primarchs. Not all were favorable toward this plan, and one, Miletus Taliesinus, the Emperor’s Chief Archivist, spoke out against the plan, calling it an abomination. Such talk was silenced when the Emperor ordered the execution of the Chief Archivist. Ignoring the warning, the Emperor pushed forward with his plan and soon the primarchs were “born.” Soon after, the dark forces of Chaos scattered the primarchs across the galaxy. Thus began the Great Crusade, where the Emperor searched for each of his children and bestowed upon them a Space Marine legion. Of the twenty primarchs, nine remained loyal, nine turned to Chaos, and two have been removed from the Imperial histories…

The planet Avalon in Segmentum Obscura: a perfect world unblemished by war, hunger, or poverty. Rich in resources, Avalon had been settled four millennia before the Age of Strife. As the memory of Terra and the warfare of humanity’s heritage faded, each man of Avalon lived in harmony with his neighbor in a temperate paradise. Each region elected a king to rule over them, and the kings in turn elected a high king to rule over all. No one sought power or wealth; only service to others counted. Only the Caliburnus, the great sword that was the symbol of the high king, remained to remind the people of Avalon of war.

One night, the king of the Dragon Isles, Uthyr, after a day spent hunting with his court, saw a streak of fire across the sky. His curiosity piqued, Uthyr rode in search of the fiery star and found the infant primarch. This fair-haired blue-eyed child was deemed the Star Child of legend, and Uthyr named him Cadwalladyr and raised him as his own son. Cadwalladyr grew rapidly, learning the arts and sciences, becoming an accomplished poet and statesman at a young age. The keenness of his mind was only equaled by the strength of his towering body. Uthyr, already an old man, put forward the young Cadwalladyr as his heir assumptive; the people unanimously agreed, and Cadwalladyr became king of the Dragon Isles, then within a few short years, high king of Avalon.

On the fifth anniversary of Cadwalladyr’s coronation as high king, the Emperor of Mankind came to Avalon. The two talked for days before Cadwalladyr joyfully declared to the Council of Kings that he would accompany the Emperor on the Great Crusade. Cadwalladyr was given command of the second Space Marine Legion and met his brother primarchs, but joy quickly turned to horror as Cadwalladyr realized that the Great Crusade was a campaign of conquest rather than the unification of the galaxy in peace. Cadwalladyr confronted the Emperor, declaring he would follow no one who was not devoted to peace. The Emperor, remembering the mumbled prophecy given by his long dead chief archivist, declared Cadwalladyr a traitor, and had him imprisoned on Alpha Ceti V, locked away in stasis. The Space Marines of the Sword Sworn legion, who once served Cadwalladyr, were locked away with him.

Then the arch traitor, Horus, turned to Chaos, and ended the dream of the Emperor. Billions died and much knowledge was lost in the intervening millenia, including all records of concerning Cadwalladyr and the Sword Sworn. Even the jailors, a small detachment of the Cadian Imperial Guard, knew not whom or what they guarded.

Millennia passed. Alpha Ceti V remained an unknown prison; the Imperial Guard thinking the duty as the worst possible assignment. When a Dark Eldar raiding party attacked the world, all was thought lost, but the battle cracked the stasis prison and Cadwalladyr escaped. Having once again reclaimed the symbol of his office, the sword Caliburnus, the primarch, surrounded by his loyal legion of Sword Sworn Space Marines, swept the field of battle clean of the xenos threat. The few remaining Guardsmen then swore fealty to Cadwalladyr, declaring all previous oaths to be null and void.

Now, Cadwalladyr and his Sword Sworn plan to enforce peace on the Imperium of Man, whether it likes it or not.

Lupe
26-01-2010, 06:29
Right, fan fic aside, let me approach this logically.

9 legions turned traitor, and they were not expunged from records, just declared Exc T

So, what reasons would there be for all information about them to be expunged?

- they've been completely annihilated, to a man, and this can be verified, therefore they're no longer cause for concern
- they still exist, but whatever they're up to is so secret that not even the High Lords may not know what that is

Those are the only two possible reasons I could see for this. As to what they're specialized in, who their primarchs are, what color teddy bears they have painted on their shouldr plates, and so forth, that's open for interpretation.

genestealer_baldric
26-01-2010, 08:12
I think I shot the easter bunny last year, but he got back up :( I think he has the FNP special rule

ha ha :) sigged

Phaedron2
26-01-2010, 15:33
my theory as to why they would be expunged is if something terrible happened during the great crusade (i.e turning traitor, getting wiped out ect) the the Emperor would have removed them during this time. However as for the other 9 who turned during the heresy, the Emperor was dead before they could be properly removed and I would suspect the loyalist would want to keep some reminders of what happened.

Tzar Boris
26-01-2010, 19:22
Okay, going back to Horus Rising (I think) - Horus said he was the personification of "the dreadful Sagittary" as per the Emperors word. Now, using the current Western version of the Zodiac, that makes him Sagittarius, the soldier. (Using the Western Zodiac is limiting because of it only has twelve - but this is GW, who said it was simple!)

We can assume that Alpharius is Gemini, Lion El'Johnson is Leo, Rogal Dorn is possibly Taurus. That's about as far as I usually get, as astrology holds little interest. However, there was an older verion of the zodiac that contained twenty two signs - one being the aquila - but no sagittarius. Pooh.

There are several other zodiacs, yet most have either to many or to few signs to be of any real use. I was hopeful of the Mesopotamian/Babylonian Zodiac, as much is written of the Emperors ancient history, but alas, only twelve.
Another of GWs twisty things.

Sigis
26-01-2010, 19:58
I used the two missing legions as an inspiration for two of my table top space marine armies but also for two of my more thrilling pen and paper 40k RPGs. One were the Disciples of Polyneices with the loyal Primarch Oedipus (with copious psychic powers using 1ksons rules) and the seemingly loyal Teutonic Knights.

I've always felt the two missing legions were intended to be sources for players to create their own legions/fluff.

Condottiere
26-01-2010, 20:58
There's the Chinese Zodiac, with twelve animals and five elements, which will give you sixty templates to choose from.

abasio
27-01-2010, 15:36
Okay, going back to Horus Rising (I think) - Horus said he was the personification of "the dreadful Sagittary" as per the Emperors word. Now, using the current Western version of the Zodiac, that makes him Sagittarius, the soldier. (Using the Western Zodiac is limiting because of it only has twelve - but this is GW, who said it was simple!)

We can assume that Alpharius is Gemini, Lion El'Johnson is Leo, Rogal Dorn is possibly Taurus. That's about as far as I usually get, as astrology holds little interest. However, there was an older verion of the zodiac that contained twenty two signs - one being the aquila - but no sagittarius. Pooh.

There are several other zodiacs, yet most have either to many or to few signs to be of any real use. I was hopeful of the Mesopotamian/Babylonian Zodiac, as much is written of the Emperors ancient history, but alas, only twelve.
Another of GWs twisty things.

The babylonian zodiac has 18 constellantions including Saggitarius

1. MUL.MUL "The Star Cluster" or "Star of Stars" (Pleiades)
2. GU4.AN.NA "The Steer of Heaven" (Taurus)
3. SIPA.ZI.AN.NA "The Loyal Shepherd of Heaven" (Orion)
4. ŠU.GI "The Old One" (Perseus)
5. ZUBI "The Scimitar" (Auriga)
6. MAŠ.TAB.BA.GAL.GAL "The Great Twins" (Gemini)
7. AL.LUL "The Crayfish" (Cancer)
8. UR.GU.LA "The Lion" (Leo)
9. AB.SIN "The Seed-Furrow" (Virgo)
10. ZIB.BA.AN.NA/zi-ba-ni-tum "The Scales" (Libra)
11. GIR.TAB "The Scorpion" (Scorpius)
12. PA.BIL.SAG (Sagittarius)
13. SUḪUR.MAŠ.KU6 "The Goat-Fish" (Capricorn)
14. GU.LA "The Great One" (Aquarius)
15. KUN.MEŠ "The tails" (Pisces)
16. SIM.MAḪ "The Great Swallow" (SW Pisces and Epsilon Pegasi)
17. A.NU.NI.TUM/A-nu-ni-tum (Andromeda)
18. LU.ḪUŊ.GA "The Agrarian Worker" (Aries)

but who would the others be?

Lupe
27-01-2010, 16:18
Sanguinius would be the Star of Stars
Lorgar would be the Loyal Shepherd
Russ would be the Old One
Magnus would be the Scimitar
Vulkan would be Aries
Ferrus would be the Great One
Guiliman would be the Scales
Perturabo would be Taurus
Corax would be the Tails
Dorn would be the Crayfish

At least that's how I'd go.

Didn't particularly find anything that would fit Mortarion, the Haunterand Angron, and I'm still in doubt about the rest

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
27-01-2010, 16:22
@Lupe:
Could you explain your choices, for the ignorants, like me, who never get interested by Zodiac?

Lupe
27-01-2010, 16:48
Personal impressions, really, but I'll try and go ahead.

Sanguinius is, if I remember correctly, described by Horus as being the brightest of the Primarchs.
Lorgar's easy, I tend to think of all religious leaders as shepherds, and it's an image they like to entertain themselves
Magnus would be the scimitar because of the whole Egyptian theme of the 1K Sons
Vulkan would be the "Agrarian Worker" because of his slower pace and the fact that he is probably the one who cares most about the civilians.
Guilliman is the Scales because he's the one that kept the Imperium together after the Emperor's death, providing it with much needed stability.
Perturabo is Taurus because I personally see him as the pack animal of the lot, the one who got all the crap jobs
Dorn would be the crayfish because he's got the toughest shell - he's the master of defense.
Corax would be the Tails (Fish according to the translation of the latin Pisces, to be more specific) because he's the taciturn, the silent one, and so is the way he operates. Also, the Tails translation is related to the fact that his legion had been the least equipped one, the one that got all the leftovers.
Russ would be the Old One, mostly because he strikes me as the wisest of all the Primarchs, despite the image he liked to create for himself. Also, I seem to recall him being named the Old Wolf more than a few times.
Not exactly sure about Ferrus, really, but it was him or Fulgrim for that spot, and I was still considering Fulgrim for Virgo at the time, cause of the whole perfection theme he's got going for him :)

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
27-01-2010, 17:10
Go ahead!
Even if this Zodiac/Primarchs theory is very, very strange, at very least the stuff of it seems to be new.
I don't care if it's canon, but I may use it in my own DH & RT RPG setting...
So, please, go ahead for the first to the last!

Tzar Boris
27-01-2010, 19:32
Ah dang! Still only eighteen though. Possibly why two were killed off! It's one of those "mysteries" that would probably be totally disappointing to know the truth of the matter. Spend twenty years saying "Expunged" as if it were some great terror, but find out that it's just someone came up with the nice round twenty, and failed to fill all the slots.

That being said. Didn't Horus kill one whilst it was in incubation? Or was that just a warp dream - I felt it was like a more corporeal version of Christmas Carol, and they were actually walking about the lab and 40k land with a form of glamour over them.

grumbaki
27-01-2010, 19:54
Legion 2: The primarch was found by a sect that has beliefs similar to Budhism. The emperor finds his lost son and finds that his son is a pacifist who has become the galaxy's #1 superhuman in meditation and chanting, and no amount of cajoling or smacking around will change him. The records are deleted, as he doesn't want anyone to know that the Dark Future isn't always about war.

Legion 11: The emperor found that his lost son was addicted to a game involving moving around small plastic soldiers on a table and rolling dice. Worse than that, he sucked at it and lost nearly all of his games, even when he got his lists off the internet. The Emperor wisely decided that this was not the person he wanted leading an entire legion, so all records were expunged.

See? No horrible dark secrets of betrayal. Just plain embarrisment. He found two primarchs who didn't really want to hurt anyone, had no ambitions for world dominance and were not fit for military operations. If he had accepted them then they might have been a bad influence on the other primarchs. I mean, could you imagine what the galaxy would be like if Horus was exposed to pacifist philosophy or if the Iron Warriors, instead of brooding about guard duty, spent their time happily painting pewter models of themselves?

Cromwell Haarlock-Leth
27-01-2010, 20:01
I don't care about what happened to the 2nd and 11th Legion. We know there's no answer to that question. But the Zodiac / Primarchs thing interest me. See above.

Sygerrik
27-01-2010, 20:06
I've always thought that the missing Legions being traitors makes sense. They'd be isolated incidents (Dorn mentions their "separate tragedies" in The Lightning Tower) which would be sources of deep shame for the Imperium and the surviving Legions. During the Great Crusade, it would be relatively easy to expunge all records of the errant Legions.

The reason the 9 Traitor Legions haven't been forgotten is that it was simply to monumental an endeavor to try to cover it up, and in the immediate post-Heresy era the Imperium was too damaged to even attempt it. I'm sure that they would have purged all mention of them if they could have.

Tzar Boris
27-01-2010, 22:21
It's the "Lightning Tower" that makes me wonder - they are referred to as being empty for a long time yet not specifically dead. "Warnings that had not been heeded" leads us to believe some form of similarity with their downfall to Horus'.

I can't remember where from, but I recall something about (was it "tales of heresy"?) that they were "lost to us, don't even think it" - given to meaning that they still remained as some form of option.

It would be a clear assumption to make that they would have became powerful in their own right, before contact with the Emperor - and as such, may have little problem in turning their back on the Imperium when it came calling. The issue with many of the Primarchs is their own sense of self worth - not just Fulgrim - and even the Emperors diplomacy may have a hard time making them bend their knee. Angron was a slave, and needed a master, Fulgrim needed a purpose and a sense of belonging, The Lion was a Knight and knew his place, Russ was bested in his skills as warrior king, and so on - they all have their reasons for showing fealty to the Emperor - but what if the Emperor came too late? They had already began expanding their empire into space? They may have became too diplomatic with xenos creatures (such as the interex), or been swallowed by Chaos and ascended to Daemon Princedom, or any number of other things.

Why they kept the plinths at all is beyond me. Talk about keeping your failures around.

"Hi, we're the Imperium. We rock! Look we got all them Space Marines. The really big blokes are demigods and are immortal - pretty cool huh? Oh yeah, before we even started two of them went men-tal! Totally dude. Then half of what was rest tried to kill us all and destroy the entire piggin galaxy. In fact, they're still hanging about bein a bit of a nuisance, so if you see them, give us a ring, eh? They look all dead evil and stuff and smell like they've been about for ten millenia, should be easy. Oh! The immortal ones are all dead now, or sleepin, or lost somewhere. I know, how do you lose one of them? Well, it's all the Emperors fault really, he was in the basement, fiddling with his book on daemonology, and it all went to pot. You know how it goes. We would complain to him, but he's not been answering his phone - keeps going to answer-machine. Apparently he's ascended to god-hood or something. Anyhoo, how's about you give us half your population for the army - who you won't ever see again as we send them on pointless suicide missions, and we turn your planet into a toxic dump? It's all for the good of humanity you know?"

Phunting
27-01-2010, 22:34
Quoted for truth.Well indeed. That will teach him for daring to post some ideas he has had on the internet. Perhaps we could all point and laugh at our screens, and then add some insults about his parentage. Anything to preserve our precious domain of ridiculing anyone anonymously for just wanting to voice some ideas...

Lord Asgul
27-01-2010, 23:28
Well indeed. That will teach him for daring to post some ideas he has had on the internet. Perhaps we could all point and laugh at our screens, and then add some insults about his parentage. Anything to preserve our precious domain of ridiculing anyone anonymously for just wanting to voice some ideas...

Thanks Phunting, I like your ironic ways :)

Alamais
28-01-2010, 00:26
my theory as to why they would be expunged is if something terrible happened during the great crusade (i.e turning traitor, getting wiped out ect) the the Emperor would have removed them during this time. However as for the other 9 who turned during the heresy, the Emperor was dead before they could be properly removed and I would suspect the loyalist would want to keep some reminders of what happened.


This is what I believe.
We know the two lost legions participated in the great crusade but not to what degree. I think these two both fell to chaos (for whichever reason) and where purged from all records for it by the Emperor's personal decree.

Post heresy however, with the Emperor grievously injured and only conscious for a short time he never had the chance to place the latest traitors on the "purge all knowledge" list.

So we have the lost legions officially declared traitors by the Emperor and are purged from record, while the heresy traitors where not quite as officially declared traitors by the Lords of Terra. A small but important difference.

duffybear1988
28-01-2010, 01:36
Personally I like to think that one of the lost primarchs landed on an ork infested planet, was raised by a wierdboy and ended up painting himself green, beating the warboss and leading the boyz in the biggest waaaaagh!!!! ever seen, then he went home had a shower and concieved Gazgkhull in a night of wild passion with a squiggoth...

The other one probably landed on our planet, was arrested by the FBI and held in Area 51 where they disected him, denied he ever landed and then back engineered most of the technology, like computers and mobile phones, from his smashed stasis pod...

What I never got was the idea that the Emperor knew his kids were all mutant freaks and yet he still went searching for them... I mean come on we all know what really happened dont we? Mrs Emperor gave birth to them all (probably over a couple of days... and dropping a few dress sizes in that time I might add), the Emperor saw that they were all ugly/deformed/freaks and 'accidently' pressed the launch buttons on his private space ships, blasting them into space to be killed. Then he blamed it on chaos... as he never really liked the chaos gang (what with them beating him at poker night and making him feel like less of a man and all). However Mrs Emperor got a tad annoyed and demanded he went out and looked for his sons, so he launched a crusade to find them because Mrs Emperor told him he had to sleep in the spare room until they were found...

The reason he never found the other 2 sons was:

a) He was scared that George Bush Jr and Tony Blair would attack him for having WMD's...
b) The other one had married a squiggoth without the Emperor's permission and so was disowned...

THE TRUTH... AMEN

Condottiere
28-01-2010, 08:25
One Primarch landed on a Maiden World, was adopted by the Exodites living there, and led them on a Dragon against the encroaching Imperium Forces.

Max1mum
28-01-2010, 12:34
They have been removed from history to cover something up.

Either because they betrayed the emperor and he did not want word of that to spread.

Or because of another reason that the emperor doesn't want to be public knowledge ..( pull a left testical of a primarch and his legion drops dead ..or some other gimmick )

Now if it was betrayel, then the emperor would not have been cought with his pants down by what horus did. If two of his sons had allready betrayed him he would have seen it coming. He would have acted to make sure his remaining sons remained loyal. He would not be suprised by betrayel and by the chaos gods praying on his sons if he had allready been warned by two others. In fact it takes a legion to bring down a legion, to bring down two legions and eradicate them from the history books take 2 to 3 legions. To many individuals would know about it, it would be impossible to remove that from the books.

What i think that happen is a different tragedy alltogether. I think that one or maybe both of the geneseeds had been geneticly unstable. He created the legions, they prospered for some years only to falter and see all the marines die at a given age. Before they even got a chance to make a name for them selfs. Before the crusade even started. And just like that he removed the names of those legions from the records, knowing that the geneseed was unstable he also mourned the los of his sons, but also removed them because he did not believe they could have surfived.

Know what would be more devastating to morale then the idea that at any given time, the geneseed, the source of power for all astartes could give up. And the astartes could mutate or simply just die then and there. That's a secret to hide, the astartes a genetic timebomb not a very stable foundation to build a empire on.

That's why he went back to Terra, to keep working on his program so he could figure out what the F happend to his two lost legions, to stop it from happening again.

If treachery was what happend to the other 2 legions, he would not have been cought with his pants down waiting for Horus to suprise him.

Tzar Boris
28-01-2010, 19:14
What always gets me is the "surprise" that is encountered over the Primarchs inevitable fall to Chaos. They were created by the Emperor, who bargained with Chaos for some measure of their power, and then backed out. Surely he saw them coming to get a piece of the action at some stage.

Max1mum
29-01-2010, 01:26
What always gets me is the "surprise" that is encountered over the Primarchs inevitable fall to Chaos. They were created by the Emperor, who bargained with Chaos for some measure of their power, and then backed out. Surely he saw them coming to get a piece of the action at some stage.

He did ? that's new to me.

Sulenreaper
29-01-2010, 03:14
When Horus is being swayed by the forces of Chaos they say that the Emperor struck deal with them. These are the Chaos gods we're talking about. They probably made that ***** up.

Balragore
29-01-2010, 03:41
They saw the imperium for what it was, politics on a grand scale that (based on the great crusade) can go horribly wrong. They said "To the warp with this nonesense" and went their seperate ways.

Nothing to do with turning traitor, or being supersecret ninja uberhuman puppetmasters still alive and kicking/pulling strings, everything to do with "I reject your reality and submit [will commit to] my own [on my own]."

Edit: If anyone has/had the ability to strike out on their own and do better...
It would definately be a primarch...

Max1mum
29-01-2010, 04:11
so the idea that the emperor is in fact a chaos god lackey comes from a Dillerium suffered by a sick mind that was being tricked and manipulated into joining the dark side...

max the dog
29-01-2010, 04:47
We know so very little about those last 2 primarchs. Striking them from history seems pretty extreme especially in light of what Horus eventually did. One of the few things we do know is that the loyal primarchs knew about what happened. So one could guess that the traitor primarchs knew about them too. The possibilities as I see it;
#1 They turned traitor before Hours and the emperor had to stifle the knowledge on it to prevent it happening again. I don't believe this one or Horus would've mentioned it as a reason to turn traitor.

#2 They did something even worse than become a traitor. Hard to imagine what this would be. If turning traitor, killing the emperor and destroying the imperium isn't enough to be stricken from the records then what could be?

#3 Something happened to them early that was worse than becoming a traitor. This is where I think the truth is to be found. We know that the chaos gods took special interest in the the fetal primarchs so it's possible that the 2 missing ones were somehow corrupted before the rest were kidnapped. Expunging them from the records would have made sense as flawed primarchs would've exposed the emperor as flawed and demonstrated that chaos existed in a time when the emperor was attempting to hide the existence of it. My guess is that one of the future Horus Heresy books will deal with the subject.

Karhedron
29-01-2010, 11:04
That being said. Didn't Horus kill one whilst it was in incubation? Or was that just a warp dream - I felt it was like a more corporeal version of Christmas Carol, and they were actually walking about the lab and 40k land with a form of glamour over them.

I think it mentions that he damaged the incubator, what effect this had on the infant primarch inside is unknown but it clearly had some negative influence. I don't think he killed it outright as we have fluff stating that the Emperor found all 20 Primarchs and they were reunited with their Legions. From this fluff I think we can discount theories that involve the Primarch dying before discovery or failing to join the Imperium for some reason.

All 20 were found and all 20 were given command of their legions. This much has been stated as unambiguous fact.

As others have pointed out, rebelling against the Emperor seems unlikely as the Horus's betrayal would not have come as such a great shock if a Primarch had rebelled before.

Malcador states to Dorn something like "they are lost to us". This is not the same as dead. However we know they were found at some point so clearly they were lost during the Great Crusade.

Perhaps the word "lost" should be taken literally. Maybe they ventured beyond the Astronomicon and failed to return or maybe they disappeared in mysterious circumstances. This does not explain why their records were expunged but I daresay reasons couold be found with a little imagination. The Emperor's grief perhaps or not wanting to allow knowledge that 10% of his best troops had simply vanished to spread.

The idea of genetic instability is also a good one as Max1mum suggests. The Primarch was found and went on to lead his legion. At some point it became clear that something was badly wrong. The legion either died or had to be "put down". Either their Primarch died with them or he was put into stasis by the Emperor in the hope that he might one day find a cure. The Primarch whose container was damaged by Horus in his vision would be the perfect candidate for this tradegdy.

The other idea is more intriguing and dates from a bit of 2nd ed fluff. It states that some of the Primarachs had powers which were not passed down to their Marines such as flight or invisibility. Now we know that Sanguinius could fly but we have never heard of a Primarch who could turn invisible. Perhaps he was the last missing Primarch and perhaps his legion did inherit his ability. Or if they did not inherit it at the outset, he managed to teach them the skill. Perhaps he and his legion simply vanished, never to be seen again.

Until.....

pookie
29-01-2010, 13:08
The other idea is more intriguing and dates from a bit of 2nd ed fluff. It states that some of the Primarachs had powers which were not passed down to their Marines such as flight or invisibility. Now we know that Sanguinius could fly but we have never heard of a Primarch who could turn invisible. Perhaps he was the last missing Primarch and perhaps his legion did inherit his ability. Or if they did not inherit it at the outset, he managed to teach them the skill. Perhaps he and his legion simply vanished, never to be seen again.

Until.....

yes we do!

its Corax!!!!!

its not quite that he turns invisible, but he's able to cloud the minds of those around him.

its in the New audio book by Gav T.

Holdenstein
29-01-2010, 13:27
Here's a little something for you. If the Legion of the Damned are really the remants of the Fire Hawks, why aren't they called the Chapter of the Damned?

I know that it's a bit tenuous, but if the Emperor exiled a couple of Legions for failure, he wouldn't just send them beyond the limit of the Astronomicon. He'd go a bit further wouldn't he...

wilsongrahams
29-01-2010, 13:42
The answer is on the home page of the GW website, and always has been!

The Emperor got to planet that is home to Legion II, upon meeting his long lost son, the goofy nerd declared 'My name is Doris Pinkwafer. I want to rename my Legion Pinksies Forever' The Emperor shook his head and left, knowing he would not be able to record this and have his Legions taken seriously. Months later he encountered Legion XI's home world, and landing there met the Primarch, whom said 'I am Childeater, hater of young ones and kittens, I will name my Legion The Fluffsters.' The Emperor hadn't even boarded his Stormlord before calling the ships in orbit to prepare the virus bombs, which later he would declare illegal, yet strangely not take back from the fleets kitted out with them...

pookie
29-01-2010, 13:56
Here's a little something for you. If the Legion of the Damned are really the remants of the Fire Hawks, why aren't they called the Chapter of the Damned?

I know that it's a bit tenuous, but if the Emperor exiled a couple of Legions for failure, he wouldn't just send them beyond the limit of the Astronomicon. He'd go a bit further wouldn't he...

the LoD were named as the firehawks in WD 99.


also consider that no other known Legion was called Leion of the x ( ie Legionof the Imperial Fists, Legion of the Ultramarines etc )

Holdenstein
29-01-2010, 14:19
the LoD were named as the firehawks in WD 99.


also consider that no other known Legion was called Leion of the x ( ie Legionof the Imperial Fists, Legion of the Ultramarines etc )

I would show remarkable precience to name them the Legion of the Damned before they were damned.

More recent fluff than WD99 has been overturned when convenient. By that logic the Deathwing should still be totally dominated by Native American influences ;). I'm just tossing it out there- that's all.

duffybear1988
29-01-2010, 14:23
the LoTD have always been suggested as being the firehawks, nothing has ever been set in complete stone as far as im aware. What if they ended up in the warp and there met one of the lost legions (the original legion of the damned) who encouraged them to join them.

also there is the posibility that one of the primarchs was infact Thor himself... from what I remember he had this great inspiring presence (like a primarch), he rose from the dead? (inhuman healing - like a primarch), he defeated the enemy (much like the other primarch early life stories), and he led the people (like a primarch)... so maybe, just maybe he was one of the lost primarchs who took longer to rise to power (maybe his stasis tube didnt open/break like the others and he was left unfound in stasis). Then he rose up took power etc. Just a thought anyways.

Tak
29-01-2010, 15:58
Right, this is only my third posting on Warseer but I am a complete nut when it comes to Black Library publications.
I have pondered over this subject since time immemorial and the only theory's that make any sense to me are the following;

1) It's known that the other primarchs each embodied a particular quality that was found in the Emperor himself. In The Inquisition War (set in the 41st millenium) the Emperor was shown as having a somewhat fractured subconcious where the myriad of identities that made up his mind frequently lost cohesion with one another.
Also in Legion, Grammaticus reflects on the time he actually met the Emperor.
Now Grammaticus was a psyker of prodigious power and he clearly alludes to a 'darker side' of the Emperor.
As a result, one of the missing legions, including their primarch, could have enbodied this negative 'quality' and quite literally gone collectively and completely insane.
As for the other legion they could have mutated into abominations that had to be dealt with quickly and quietly.
When Rogal Dorn himself alludes to the two legions in Mechanicum, Malcador replies by saying "Do not even think it my friend, they are lost to us forever".
These circumstances are, in my opinion, far better grounds for "tragic circumstances" that would lead to their histories being expunged.

2) The other theory is that the Emperor foresaw the threat that the tyranids would pose in the future and despatched the two legions on a one way mission that took them out of the galaxy itself so that they could perform some kind of as yet unknown service to the imperium. The sensitivity of the mission could count for the classified nature of their records and the distances involved would also account for Malcador's reply to Dorn.

Sulenreaper
29-01-2010, 20:46
yes we do!

its Corax!!!!!

its not quite that he turns invisible, but he's able to cloud the minds of those around him.

its in the New audio book by Gav T.

Also Sanguinius has wings so I think he can fly

Desert Rain
02-02-2010, 11:51
I think that the flawed gene theory makes sense. The Emperor wouldn't want that to come out to the general public since his credibility as flawless would become less credible.

Tak's idea about the Emperor foreseeing the Tyranid threat and thus sent the 2 legions away from the galaxy so that mankind might survive. Of course they brought lots of normal men and women with them as well.

pookie
02-02-2010, 12:57
the theory that the Emp saw the Nids isnt the greatest imo, after all, the Emp missed the HH which was his 'shadow' point, even the Eldar Farseers seem to have missed the threat.