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Tenken
18-01-2010, 11:15
I'm looking to start an army and I realized something the other day; I like an army who's leaders lead from the front and really carry the force. Who does that in 40k? I'm guessing SM or maybe CSM are on the top wrung, but I'd like some opinions anyhow.

Mawchild
18-01-2010, 11:22
Daemons (Bloodthirsters), Orks, CSM and Nids. All have HQs that need to get stuck in in order to recoup their cost. Many SM choices especially named characters on the other hand are able to justify their price tags due to the buffs they give the rest of the army.

carldooley
18-01-2010, 11:25
Calgar and Kantor are two big 'Lead from the front' guys from the SM Codex. Calgar's bonus is huge, and his loadout is intended to lead from the front - as it would be a waste to have it tucked into a LR in the backfield. As for Kantor (who I take regularly), his +1A bonus is great meaning that he is always going to be toward the front, where he can have the most impact.

Generically, I'd say the Chaos Sorceror is best, especially if you put him with a squad of chosen and give him Lash.

Bassline
18-01-2010, 11:25
I would say Nids now as of swarmlord

PaulmanMN
18-01-2010, 11:26
I know they are a nerfed out army mostly, but pound for pound... The Nightbringer is BAD ASS!

tezza21
18-01-2010, 11:31
yeah the nightbringer is pound for pound the nastiest hq he cuts through armour and u get no invunrable save against his attacks's i think

Promethius
18-01-2010, 11:38
I would vote for a DE Archon with shadowfield. I remember having units cut to pieces by a fast, high initiative guy with a 2+ invulnerable save. Ouch.

Bunnahabhain
18-01-2010, 11:39
Old codex Guard.

1 HQ choice, (and a compulsory one at that) could consist of:

Command squad, with Preist, commissar and sanctioned psyker, in a chimera
5 heavy weapon squads , in chimeras.
all of whom have carapace armour, re-rolls 1 to hit, may regroup below half strength, and add +1 to cover saves.

probably the hardest HQ anybody has had in 40K for some time, as it costs up to ~1800pts. Out of date now, and doesn't lead from the front, but will put anything we come up with here to shame. 15 lascannons tends to make bad days for big targets.

As for big killy lead from the front stuff....

Assorted big nids
Bloodthirsters ( dameons)
Assorted chaos options( CSM)
Warboss ( Orks)
Some marine charcters ( assorted marine codexs)
And the dark eldar one

Dogface
18-01-2010, 11:47
Dark Eldar Archon with Combat Drugs, Shadow Field and Agonizer tend to put a dent in most things :)

Tenken
18-01-2010, 11:50
I know they are a nerfed out army mostly, but pound for pound... The Nightbringer is BAD ASS!

How does the rest of the necron HQ look?

ehlijen
18-01-2010, 11:57
For HQ the necrons have 3 choices:

The nightbringer (see above)
The deciever, a slightly weaker version of the nightbringer
and Necron lords with good physcical stats but lacking in skill. They can have decent gear and weapons though.

Overall, I'd say Mephiston is still pretty good, though not for HQ vs HQ battles as he lacks an invul save.

The Avatar is also nice, though somewhat in the mid range in capabilities and cost.

Latro_
18-01-2010, 12:10
point for point i'd say the overall best hq unit in the game is a daemon prince with wings mark of nurgle and warp time.

Archangel_Ruined
18-01-2010, 12:25
Eldar farseer on jetbike with warlock squad on jetbikes. Rerolling everything, wounding on 2's, nasty, nasty unit.

Thanatos_elNyx
18-01-2010, 12:32
Agree on Daemon Prince with Wings and Warptime.

MoN is optional, or not if you are a Tzeentch player :(

meanmachine
18-01-2010, 12:34
i would go for a necron lord on destoryer body with warsyche

at only 140 with strength 5 toughness 6 (no brackets so immune to insant death from any ranged weapons), a weapon that wont allow any save at all and gets 2d6 plus strengh against tanks, he counts as a jetbike so can get around really quickly, also he can die and come back again. this guy is amazing for the points

remember you can still give him another 70 points of upgrades if you want to

this guy can do just fine all by himself or even better with a team of wraiths

the nightbringer is good too but the necron destroyer lord has the speed to his advantage

Archangel_Ruined
18-01-2010, 12:42
If you're talking best per points I think the necron lord might have it, if we're just talking best in game terms I still fancy the seer council on jetbikes.

LonelyPath
18-01-2010, 12:48
I've always been fond of Belial with lightning claws. For 130 points he's well worth taking, not to mention cheaper than any othee SM equivalent (even if he has slightly worse stats). Plus putting him in a unit of CC DW means he stays on the table a heck of alot longer.

A Grey Knights Grand Master is also good, give him a psychic hood and a icon of the just and he's set with a 4++ save, tablewide psychic save and a force weapon that ignores eternal warrior. Granted that loadout sets you back 190 points, but he's still pretty mean.

Worsle
18-01-2010, 12:56
Per point heralds on chariots are a lot of bang for their buck. Lot better value than the greater daemons too, Slaanesh and Tzeentch ones coming in at less than half the price of their greater daemon. If it was not for the speed isue I would not even know why some one would take the bloodthrister over the skulltaker on a chariot, though when you can get a Tzeentch herald with the skulltaker for the same price as a standard thrister?

Radium
18-01-2010, 12:57
Space Wolves?

The codex is written around the idea you field a couple of über characters.

Thud
18-01-2010, 13:01
Space Wolves?

The codex is written around the idea you field a couple of über characters.

Indeed.

Even if you don't count the special characters, a basic Wolf Lord with artificer armour, storm shield, power fist and either saga of the bear or saga of the warrior born mounted on a thunderwolf is pretty damn nasty.

Hokiecow
18-01-2010, 13:12
I know they are a nerfed out army mostly, but pound for pound... The Nightbringer is BAD ASS!

No doubt, The DE Archon couldn't hold a flame to the Nightbringer since it's able to cast off units with a T<4 before they can attack. The Archon wouldn't be able to strike.

Tenken
18-01-2010, 13:36
Hmm, I'm really considering doing necrons now. I've heard nothing but terrible things about them, but I do enjoy a challenge. Wish their troop choice was..... well a choice.:p But that aside I'll have to actually give their codex a serious look over now.

PaulmanMN
18-01-2010, 13:58
My very first army was Necrons. Started them just a year ago now. (I have since moved onto SM's, and now 'Nids, as well as Dark Elves for Fantasy).

The very first time I fielded the Nightbringer, he ate the ENTIRE army of CSM's. All of them. I think he took 2 or 3 wounds, but he was veeeeeeery well worth the points. You should have heard the other players moaning.

Hilarity!

PaulmanMN

SirSnipes
18-01-2010, 14:05
daemons no competition everything is hard hitting

Arvendragon
18-01-2010, 14:31
If you consider combinations;
Seer Council/Avatar + Fortune + Doom

Giganthrax
18-01-2010, 14:41
Technically, on a 1on1 basis, daemon princes, hive tyrants, and greater daemons are the strongest HQs, but... They're all monstrous creatures, so chances are they'll get owned by high strength shooting before they get into close combat. Also, having a monster like that as one's HQ doesn't exactly feel heroic (except in the case of daemon princes, who were once human).

On the other hand, it's a lot more awesome when your badass dude is a plain ol' humanoid. Hence, the coolest guys are SW Wolf Lords (especially with eternal warrior), SM captains & chapter masters, Ork warbosses, old overpowered chaplains (from BA and DA codexes), etc.

Needless to say, there are many special characters out there who also fit the bill. Calgar, Lysander, Vulkan, Cassius, Sicarius, Logan Grimnar, Ghazghul, Abbadon, Ragnar, Arjac, younameit, etc.

Calgar and Kantor are two big 'Lead from the front' guys from the SM Codex.
Naw. Kantor is more like "Lead from behind the front" guy. You want him sitting near your assault specialists, but you don't really want him going into close combat unless you can ensure his safety. He's got a 3+/4++ save, dies from instant death, and attacks at I1. This means he's likely to get squashed as soon as he gets within striking distance of a power fist, and some units like berzerkers can put up enough wounds on him to kill him before he gets to swing at all.

Garvey
18-01-2010, 14:54
My money is on a Dark Eldar Archon. If you need some more strength and toughness, put him on a bike.

meanmachine
18-01-2010, 14:58
a necronlords warscythe or a ctan will send your daemon packing

nol armour save, no invunerable no feel no pain save

Aslo tell me who will have better chance of defeating lysander, a 140 points necronlord with destoryer body and warsycthe or a 250 points bloodthirster

3+ save against bloodthirster no save against necronlord,
necron lord needs 3+ to wound bloodthirster needs 2+
2+ to wound bloodthirster 2+ to wound necronlord

warsycthe is my fav close combat weapon in the game, when you wound something it is defiantly wounded

PAnz3r
18-01-2010, 15:24
surelly Ghazkull mag uruck traka imo

primarch16
18-01-2010, 15:42
Black Templars Emperors Champion, giving you're entire army preffered enemy is a bit insane :D

BladeWalker
18-01-2010, 15:49
Abadabadoobadon gets my vote.

Illiterate Scribe
18-01-2010, 16:00
ACtually I think you'd find Aunshi would win.

MoonReaper
18-01-2010, 16:47
Ctans are the MOST expensive HQ units and the STRONGEST

Deceiver is the best.
So if you are looking for a model to kill most and lead furiously, get a Ctan

Xandros
18-01-2010, 16:54
Both Catachans and Emperor's Children make a point of leading from the front.

Joewrightgm
18-01-2010, 17:02
My vote go to Bloodthirster/ Skarbrand. An honorable mention goes to Skulltaker on Juggernaut. Oh, you're a Carnifex? Thats cute! CHOP!

Tae
18-01-2010, 17:04
i would go for a necron lord on destoryer body with warsyche

at only 140 with strength 5 toughness 6 (no brackets so immune to insant death from any ranged weapons), a weapon that wont allow any save at all and gets 2d6 plus strengh against tanks, he counts as a jetbike so can get around really quickly, also he can die and come back again. this guy is amazing for the points

remember you can still give him another 70 points of upgrades if you want to

this guy can do just fine all by himself or even better with a team of wraiths

the nightbringer is good too but the necron destroyer lord has the speed to his advantage

But he's not immune to failing his morale check from Tank Shock and running off the board :p

Slashattack
18-01-2010, 17:13
The Necron Lord has a very low WS so it would struggle to even hit a bloodthirster as it is ws 9 if I'm right. Also an archon would smack the Lord silly as on average the lord would only do about 2 wounds, meaning the archon would have two rounds of attacks and therefore the archon would kill the Lord.

Best character in the game though is probably Vect or Abbaddon. The Nightbringers just too slow for me.

Tonberry
18-01-2010, 17:17
The best character for cost vs what it brings to the table?

Vulkan He'Stan.

R0ot
18-01-2010, 17:27
Black Templars Emperors Champion, giving you're entire army preffered enemy is a bit insane :D

And the fact that he runs into a CC and chooses the IC to pick a fight with. :p

landingshortly
18-01-2010, 17:53
Eldrad. Does everything and is cheap for what he does.
Avatar for 115 points. Simply wow.
The Mask. Pavane galore. One of the most annoying HQs.
Demon Prince with Warptime and Wings.
Archon.
C'Tans.
Kantor. Shrike. Vulkan. Njal....
.....

Gosh there are so many good/strong/cost-efficient HQ's and I love the fact that most armies have at least one of them in their selection.

carldooley
18-01-2010, 18:12
Avatar for 115 points. Simply wow.

ahem, check your codex.

Also, no posting point values.:angel:

PxDn Ninja
18-01-2010, 19:49
The Necron Lord has a very low WS so it would struggle to even hit a bloodthirster as it is ws 9 if I'm right. Also an archon would smack the Lord silly as on average the lord would only do about 2 wounds, meaning the archon would have two rounds of attacks and therefore the archon would kill the Lord.

Best character in the game though is probably Vect or Abbaddon. The Nightbringers just too slow for me.


True, but the Necron Lord can just get right back up. Also, if they have the philactry(sp?) they can get up full strength.

Though, I would just bring the Nightbringer or Deceiver myself.

I used to avoid bringing C'Tan because they cost so much, but damn do they make it up.

IcedAnimals
18-01-2010, 20:32
I am pretty sure the C'tan are the strongest HQ choice in the game. The battle bunker up in Chicago does 1v1 hero matches with all the HQ choices in the game in a tourny sort of fashion for ***** and giggles. And the C'tan wins every time. Easily beating abbadon and the like.

That being said. I'd prefer Abbadon simply because he isnt a monstrous creature. He is an actual leader. So he might fit your idea of "leading from the front" a bit better.

PRoeske
18-01-2010, 21:07
I'd say
1) Grey Knight Grandmaster (with icon of the just, stormshield (as it is an additional close combat weapon), sacred incense and psychic hood) works pretty well.

2) Another possibility would be: Inquisaitor Lord (2x mystic, 3x acolyte with stormbolter, 3x veteran with plasmagun, 2x hierophant, 2x familiar)), psycannon, null rod, some psychic powers, TDA, Landraider with upgrades. Turns out at about 600 points, but kills about anything, for a single FOC.

3) Swarmlord

4) Tyranid Prime. If you compare pts by stats, this is one of the nastiest characters in the game i think, especially when equipped with scything talons and 2 boneswords and adrenal glands 5S6 I6pw attacks and regemneration is pretty good i'd say, for 110 points. If he joins another unit, that unit can use his BS and WS as well.

Of these choices, my vote would go to the tyranid prime, primarily because his Point/effectiveness ratio.

noobzilla
18-01-2010, 23:41
I'm really a fan of an Outflanking Khan on a Bike... if I were to do a SM force (Which i won't :P ) thats the one that I would play.

Freman Bloodglaive
18-01-2010, 23:53
I'd say
1) Grey Knight Grandmaster (with icon of the just, stormshield (as it is an additional close combat weapon), sacred incense and psychic hood) works pretty well.

A storm shield is not an additional close combat weapon and a Inquisitor storm shield is worse than any other storm shield (plus you can't combine invulnerable saves). A power weapon and an icon of the just would be what you needed to buy to give him the 4+ invulnerable and extra attack.

Reticent
19-01-2010, 00:24
Farsight with full bodyguard. That's, what, eight Crisis Suits?

Not bad for one HQ choice.

tuebor
19-01-2010, 02:24
Colonel Straken, in the right army, can be pretty serious. He's got stats like a Marine character (except for I, but has higher S and a power weapon) and can give friendly units Furious Charge and Counter Attack.

LKHERO
19-01-2010, 02:29
I think the best HQ in all of 40K is the Avatar.
It's just really amazing for the point value. 3+/4+ Molton Body, WS10, S6 with 4 attacks is just unreal. Not to mention it has a built in meltagun with BS5.

Ozybonza
19-01-2010, 02:39
Grey Knights GM with maxed out wargear and retinue is a single HQ choice and also awesome.

Hokiecow
19-01-2010, 02:39
Interesting the armies which people are screaming for a new codex are ones with the strong HQs.

Thud
19-01-2010, 02:50
Interesting the armies which people are screaming for a new codex are ones with the strong HQs.

I think you may be mistaking 40k for a game where the HQ alone can redeem the utter crappyness of the rest of the army.

ooglatjama
19-01-2010, 03:24
Why are people saying the C'tan? The Nightbringer is like WS 5 and I 4 or something. Skulltaker will instakill him before he can attack.

Thud
19-01-2010, 03:29
Just because one other character can kick the C'Tan silly, it doesn't mean the C'Tan is a bad character.

Furthermore, the Skulltaker will have to survive a round of shooting from the Necron army before he can charge.

And for the record; Deceiver > Nightbringer.

kardar233
19-01-2010, 03:53
If you're talking character vs. character duels, Typhus used to be really brutal before they neutered him in 5th, but he'll still eat most enemies without Eternal Warrior with 3+D6 Poisoned on 4+ force weapon attacks.

Hoodwink
19-01-2010, 06:05
Swarmlord. Anyone with a high I, WS, and the ability to ID you before you can even attack back is pretty much one of the sickest characters.

Not to mention multiple psychic attacks each turn. He'll just force you to WS1 and BS1 and laugh when you try to shoot him, then leech the wounds right back :D

Tomalock
19-01-2010, 06:56
Both Abbadon and Lysander are pretty nasty for their points, although Lysander gives more lasting bonuses beyond his mere presence on the battlefield (fortifying a ruin and giving everyone stubbern goes a long ways in most games). I'm also partial to bloodthirsters (who have ws10 not 9 btw) and grandmasters as I field both. However the one HQ I dislike facing in close combat the most is the Nightbringer because he just hurts, especially against anyone with str 4.

PRoeske
19-01-2010, 07:10
A storm shield is not an additional close combat weapon and a Inquisitor storm shield is worse than any other storm shield (plus you can't combine invulnerable saves). A power weapon and an icon of the just would be what you needed to buy to give him the 4+ invulnerable and extra attack.

Read the codex carefully. The Inq stormshield is listed as a one-handed weapon, marked with an "*1". If you read the explanation of the "*1", it says: "Although a stormshield is not a weapon as such, it counts as a singlehanded close combat weapon as no other weapons can be used on that arm" (i dont have the exact wording here, but this is pretty accurate).

If you accomapny the Grandmaster with a terminator retinue of 10, it becomes really scary indeed.



Interesting the armies which people are screaming for a new codex are ones with the strong HQs.

This is because in 3rd edition, characters had a much greater impact ont the game (like in Fantasy in the current edition). Since 5th edition, with only troop scoring, rank&file units have become the things you really need. In all those codici with powerful characters (DE, Necrons, Inquisition) the troops selection is really, really poor.

tezdal
19-01-2010, 07:32
Grey Knight Grand Master with full GKT support, and if even if not the most strong......by far the most handsome. :)

Escaflowne_Z
19-01-2010, 08:41
^^^ I agree with this.

Also, my vote goes for Aun'shi, simply because he's the best big scary gribbly tarpit EVER! Fond memories.

PRoeske
19-01-2010, 09:03
Another possibility:

Is supported correctly: Inquisitor Lord with 2 mystics + Leman Russs Demolisher squadron + Plasmacannon sponsons (3); if playing against deamons.

Hoodwink
19-01-2010, 10:45
Hive Tyrant + Acid Blood + Regeneration is quite hilarious now. Lash whips give everyone I1 in B2B, any unsaved wound on the Tyrant results in a I test at I1 or wounding model takes a wound with no saves. Not the absolute best of all time, but for the points... not too shabby.

toonboy78
19-01-2010, 11:09
calgar and 30 honour guard...

265
360*3 and 25 for standard

total

1370

Lord Solar Plexus
19-01-2010, 11:32
Having just seen a Deceiver slaughter his way through a combined CSM/SW force yesterday, kicking DP's and Berzerkers and whatnot off the table left, right and centre, I agree it's him.

Cheeslord
19-01-2010, 11:59
C'tan are glass jawed against specialist anti-IC units like Zogwurt and Skulltaker - I think in an all-comers match HQs with eternal warrior and psychic defenses are more reliable (HQ choices that are not ICs can be best in this regard, or at least ones with retinues so they can't be targeted).

Mark..

Lord Solar Plexus
19-01-2010, 13:54
You are quite right but then again you will find an Achilles heel for any other HQ as well - sometimes it might be as easy as a battery of anti-tank guns. A retinue won't protect you against Zogwort if you're an IC, EW won't protect you against some angry Blood Crushers, an invulnerable save is useless against a Psycannon and so on.

Still, I agree with the notion that there isn't one best HQ. There's too much good stuff out there, from Seer Councils to Nobs to models that make the whole army stronger to say that.

WH40KAj
19-01-2010, 14:19
I would vote for a DE Archon with shadowfield. I remember having units cut to pieces by a fast, high initiative guy with a 2+ invulnerable save. Ouch.

This. Still the best, even compared to Daemon characters.

Deftoneus
19-01-2010, 15:07
I am pretty sure the C'tan are the strongest HQ choice in the game. The battle bunker up in Chicago does 1v1 hero matches with all the HQ choices in the game in a tourny sort of fashion for ***** and giggles. And the C'tan wins every time. Easily beating abbadon and the like.

My friends and I did something like that just for fun. I had the Nighbringer and my friend had a Demon HQ. The best way to describe the fight was the Demon slapping the C'tan a bit, followed by the C'tan using his scythe to chop the Demon's head off.

It was pretty decisive.

My vote is for the Nighbringer.

Alessander
19-01-2010, 15:35
Literally, isn't the Nightbringer the only model with base Str 10? He's a hell of a killer, My Nightbringer whent toe-to-toe with both a kitted out Hive Tyrant and a Trygon Prime (both in the same combat…) and chewed them both out without a scratch.

Then again, I saw a Nightbringer get Tank Shocked by a Devilfish and fail his Death Or Glory…

Poseidal
19-01-2010, 15:49
The Wraithlord is also base S10.

Grax
19-01-2010, 15:59
The Deceiver can leave close combat before it begins on a whim, so no close combat focused enemy is a threat to him. However, I don't think he's the best because concentrated high strength fire will take him down (auto-cannons, lootas, devourers, and such).

The strongest HQ, in my opinion, is the Keeper of Secrets. S6, T6, 4+ invulnerable save, 7 attacks on the charge, monstrous creature, fleet, 12in assault, hit and run, and initiative 10. They're virtually always going to strike first, and if things look bad, they simply leave the combat and move on.

I have absolutely murdered Imperial Guard forces with this guy, sweeping across the board, annihilating unit after unit of guardsmen.

All this, and they're one of the cheaper greater daemons to boot. ^_^

Lord Solar Plexus
19-01-2010, 16:09
Erm...enough high-strength fire will take everyone down.

Poseidal
19-01-2010, 16:12
Everyone except the Harlequins! (if they're far enough away...)

Hokiecow
19-01-2010, 16:16
I think you may be mistaking 40k for a game where the HQ alone can redeem the utter crappyness of the rest of the army.

You don't think it can't? If you don't take care of a strong HQ it can sweep through your army with ease.

Grax
19-01-2010, 16:33
Erm...enough high-strength fire will take everyone down.

Yes, but many powerful units require fire with strength in the 8-10 range, with AP 1 or 2, which is more difficult to pack a list with. On the other hand, S7 weapons that don't need a low AP are far more common, and can take the deceiver down.

Granted, enemy fire like that can take down the Keeper of Secrets as well, but the Keeper deep strikes in and then moves lightning fast, so he should only be shot at for one round before he sinks his teeth in. The deceiver is slow, and liable to be shot up quite a bit before reaching the assault.

Don't get me wrong, I think he's great, but I like the Keeper of Secrets better.

Thud
19-01-2010, 16:43
You don't think it can't? If you don't take care of a strong HQ it can sweep through your army with ease.

Ok then. :eyebrows:


Don't get me wrong, I think he's great, but I like the Keeper of Secrets better.

They both have ways to avoid being shot to pieces before reaching close combat (hiding behind Monoliths is one), but the one big advantage the Deceiver has over the KoS is that once he does reach close combat he cannot be hurt by the basic troopers of most armies whereas the KoS can, and this wil eventually take its toll.

I'm not saying the KoS is pants, though, I rather quike like it. :)

Hokiecow
19-01-2010, 16:49
Ok then. :eyebrows:


Read the many examples in this thread... :D

jsullivanlaw
22-01-2010, 17:45
The Deceiver can leave close combat before it begins on a whim, so no close combat focused enemy is a threat to him. However, I don't think he's the best because concentrated high strength fire will take him down (auto-cannons, lootas, devourers, and such).

The strongest HQ, in my opinion, is the Keeper of Secrets. S6, T6, 4+ invulnerable save, 7 attacks on the charge, monstrous creature, fleet, 12in assault, hit and run, and initiative 10. They're virtually always going to strike first, and if things look bad, they simply leave the combat and move on.

I have absolutely murdered Imperial Guard forces with this guy, sweeping across the board, annihilating unit after unit of guardsmen.

All this, and they're one of the cheaper greater daemons to boot. ^_^

This might be true if he had 12 inch assault. He doesn't. I love the KoS but he is the most fragile of the greater daemons and usually gets dropped by concentrated lasgun or bolter fire. Kugath should be mentioned in this thread, though the bloodthirster is a great candidate as well as the nightbringer. The bloodthirster has speed, awesome stats, and has a good armor save and an invuln. Kugath has a ton of wounds, a poisoned battlecannon, feel no pain + an invuln, and he can make nurglings. The nightbringer will defeat most hq's because he can ignore all saves, has ultra high toughness, lots of wounds, lots of nasty abilities ect. The only reason why the nightbringer wouldn't be number one is because he is slow and does most of his damage in assault.

Kulgur
22-01-2010, 19:32
Archon, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Agoniser, full retinue including master incubi, raider w/ night shield coming out of a webway portal

Quite possibly death incarnate, but it doesn't half cost a lot of points

Master Of Disaster
22-01-2010, 19:39
If your'e looking for a support role that carries the troops, the huge selection of space marine special characters really gets the job done, with lots of little boosts for your army. He'stan lets you have twin linked melta and flamer weapons, and Kantor lets sternguard veterans count as scoring units! The combinations are nearly endless for space marines. and don't let any bad space marine players talk you out of playing them. just like with every other army, they are a good once you know how they work.

Krovin-Rezh
22-01-2010, 19:47
Khârn is the quintessential "lead from the front" guy. He knows nothing else and is capable of incredible feats. It's also hella' funny when he ganks his own guys just because he's so "into it."

Freman Bloodglaive
22-01-2010, 21:03
Read the codex carefully. The Inq stormshield is listed as a one-handed weapon, marked with an "*1". If you read the explanation of the "*1", it says: "Although a stormshield is not a weapon as such, it counts as a singlehanded close combat weapon as no other weapons can be used on that arm" (i dont have the exact wording here, but this is pretty accurate).

Yes, it takes the space of a second close combat weapon so you can't gain the bonus for two close combat weapons while using it. I already told you that you should take a power weapon for the bonus attack. Since the icon of the just already gives you a 4+ invulnerable save and according to the rules your storm shield only gives you a 4+ in combat you don't need it.

FashaTheDog
22-01-2010, 21:30
Archons are silly in this. Wych Archons are the way to go, or better yet, Lelith; for under 100 points she is better and her retinue picks the drugs they want.

As for HQs, An'ggrath, Scabeiathrax, or Zarakynel all would be contendors with the former two better off as they are standard HQs for Daemons (2k min not that you'd easily field them in less) while the latter needs to posses a model.

Dragoon King
22-01-2010, 22:01
Erm...enough high-strength fire will take everyone down.

Exactly. Especially the Nightbringer. He's slow, and a tasty target, and no one in there right mind would want to dual up close with it. Just shoot the crap outta the slow HQ, and no problems arise. That's while mobility should be considered when talking about the strongest HQ. Being a Chaos player, I think Abby can hold his own against just about anything, given he's got a nice Land Raider to tool about in. Daemon Princes can be nasty, especially with wings and Lash, but any enemy worth their salt will turn every heavy weapon he has on the things, and they probably won't make it into close combat. Kharn is underated, for the points he's a beast. Sammuel on Jetbike is a foe I face reguarly, and can be a huge headache. If you really look though, every force has at least one or two HQ choices that can change the outcome of a battle.

Draxonicar
22-01-2010, 22:11
Mephiston. Nuff said

CbmH2xX
23-01-2010, 00:48
Kharne the betrayer (165pts), Abbadon (275) and Daemon prince with wings, warptime, and the Mark of slannesh (160)

Take your pick all of these HQs own For chaos

Also we all know the Cannoness is the best and most amazing bang for your buck I don't remember the points but i dont think it matters because its lower than all of chao's options listed above.

trigger
23-01-2010, 01:01
Ragnar and 9 wolf guard ... complete over kill against any thing.

If not useing SC
Wolf Lord TDA , WTN , Thunder hammer , storm shield , saga of the bear.
WG body guard of 4 , TDA X2 wolf claws x2 THSS.

Amzin ... Oh big nids ...come hear your going to get squished.

Chem-Dog
23-01-2010, 02:59
If you want a Hardassed leader you can't get more deadly than the sheer doom that is the Tyrant, this guy, when tooled will cost 1/4-1/3 of your army and is capable of rendering any unit virtually defenseless against his attacks AND can suck the life out of them.

Creeping Dementia
23-01-2010, 03:03
If you want a Hardassed leader you can't get more deadly than the sheer doom that is the Tyrant, this guy, when tooled will cost 1/4-1/3 of your army and is capable of rendering any unit virtually defenseless against his attacks AND can suck the life out of them.

I think Swarmlord + 3 Lashwhip Guard is about as good as it comes. Costs about 500pts, but hes just nuts..... and he has abilities to help out other units.

Cuda
23-01-2010, 06:32
Angron with 8 Bloodthirsters...a blistering mountain of monstrous destruction!

Cuda...

druchii
23-01-2010, 09:20
I think Swarmlord + 3 Lashwhip Guard is about as good as it comes. Costs about 500pts, but hes just nuts..... and he has abilities to help out other units.

Seconded.

This was my origional thought. Have fun chewing through 14 T6 3+ save wounds. And then he crunshes whatever HQ you've brough.

d

MajorWesJanson
23-01-2010, 11:16
Seconded.

This was my origional thought. Have fun chewing through 14 T6 3+ save wounds. And then he crunshes whatever HQ you've brough.

d

I still have to say An'ggrath can take him. WS10 S10 T8, 7+ attacks 8 wounds, gargantuan creature.

[Edit] Being toughness 8 gargantuan, An'ggrath is immune to all of the Tyranid psychic powers except the two from the Zoanthrope. And Instant Death doesn't kill him nearly as fast.

Biomass Denial
23-01-2010, 11:28
I go with swarmlord as well, ws9, 3+ 4++ in cc and has weapons that inflict instant death regardless of toughness and then makes you reroll passed invunerable saves. He can also leech wounds reduce his openent to ws and bs 1 and can take a retinue of tyrant gaurd who can also be given boneswords. A retinue that then goes beserk if you ever manage to actually kill the swarmlord. And he also gives rather large benifits to reserves, and can bestow acute sense furious charge or prefered enemy to a squad every turn.

Side note will cost half your army.

LonelyPath
23-01-2010, 12:41
I think Swarmlord + 3 Lashwhip Guard is about as good as it comes. Costs about 500pts, but hes just nuts..... and he has abilities to help out other units.

Thirded... I was just coming into this thread to post the same thing, lol.

Fell
23-01-2010, 16:47
A lot of this discussion is actually quite pointless.

All HQ choices have their own niche of usefullness: hero-hunting, vehicle killing, troop slaughtering, commanding, supporting and so on and so forth.

Pitting the HQ's against each other is pretty much like playing rock, paper, scissors and would go something like:
Abaddon is best.
Unless he fights the Nightbringer, who is best.
Unless the Nightbringer fights the Swarmlord, who is best.
Unless it fights Mephiston, who is best.
Unless he fights Lysander, who is best.
And it just keeps going on...

tezza21
23-01-2010, 17:19
mmm hemi cuda its the best imo but what about ghazskhull?

BigBossOgryn
23-01-2010, 17:23
A Biker Boss with Klaw, Squig and Cybork Body I'd say.

Cheeslord
23-01-2010, 17:31
The strongest HQ, in my opinion, is the Keeper of Secrets. S6, T6, 4+ invulnerable save, 7 attacks on the charge, monstrous creature, fleet, 12in assault, hit and run, and initiative 10. They're virtually always going to strike first, and if things look bad, they simply leave the combat and move on.

I have absolutely murdered Imperial Guard forces with this guy, sweeping across the board, annihilating unit after unit of guardsmen.

All this, and they're one of the cheaper greater daemons to boot. ^_^

KoS is the second SLOWEST greater daemon (only the Nurgle one is slower). I think realistically the Bloodthirster is better (even considering its 50 points more) - faster, only 1 less attack (I think - a friend has borrowed my codex), furious charge (which it will get more often than not cos its so fast) giving S8 and I=enough, and WS10 means most enemy units only hit on a 5+.

Lord of change with spells may be situationally better

Mark.

Mark.

mattschuur
23-01-2010, 18:16
I played DE for 5 years and let me tell you, the only thing that my archon (131 points) hasn't taken out is the C'tan. But that's what the 9+ dark lances are for. My Archon can reap a heavy tally with the warriors.

Even so, the C'tan, overall are the hardest of the bunch, the heavyweights. As far as special (non god) characters, Abaddon and Marneus are up there. However, as for generic characters, the Archon is pound for pound (point for point) the best character in the game. For a cheap 131 points you have a model that can take on anything not a C'tan in the game and win. That is of course, if you trust you 2+ saves. Make him 137 and he has Haywire's that are the best AT grenades in the game and plasma grenades which negate his need of "always strikes first" combat drug.

Matt Schuur

Gaargod
23-01-2010, 20:23
The Archon is indeed just plain funny. Stick him on a jetbike and he can more or less chew through units by himself/support charges.

The swarmlord is... interesting. If he goes first, it becomes very hard to deal with him, due to Paroxysm and preferred enemy/furious charge, combined of course with his crazy sabres of death. Straight up combat, he alone can charge into most things in the game and come out the other wise (even nightbringer, if you're feeling risky. A single failed save, from his S7 with furious charge, and the C'tan pops. I wouldn't mind, just lob hormagaunts at him). Even Mephisto is skating on thin ice, as he doesn't have eternal warrior, so if the swarmlord charges with furious charge, he's very dead. Other way around, swarmlord likely dies due to instadeath :D.

However, the damm thing is difficult to use because its only T6 with 3+ out of combat. Ok, 5 wounds and some tyrant guard will keep him online for some time, but even so...
Very slow too, with short ranged powers.

To be honest though, most characters in the game are in deep trouble if a full sized unit of hormagaunts with toxin sacs charge them alone - and they're cheaper too. If the poor sap is Paroxysmed too, say goodbye to your favourite character.

An'grath hardly counts, as he's Apoc gargantuan. You may as well say Imperator Titans are hardcore in a 'who's the best heavy support?'.

hobodog
23-01-2010, 22:19
The Ctan obviously.
They're gods!
Most expensive models (besides apocalypse) in points

FashaTheDog
24-01-2010, 01:23
An'grath hardly counts, as he's Apoc gargantuan. You may as well say Imperator Titans are hardcore in a 'who's the best heavy support?'.

Depends on if Imperial Armor units are allowed. In IA7, he and Scabeithrax are listed as HQ choice for Daemon armies of 2k or more contain a unit of Bloodletter or Plaguebearers, respectively. So if your group says IA is all fair game so long as the FOC is adhered to, then they are regular HQs.

Cuda
24-01-2010, 02:02
mmm hemi cuda its the best imo but what about ghazskhull?

You have a point there, Ghazskull in the past was invincible for a round or two.
At GW shop my Son entered a contest; bring 500 points of your toughest and pit them against a Stompa. He was the only one that won that day, by the second turn that Stompa was a pile of smoking scrap...what did my Son use? Warboss with Cyber Orks and power Claws, oh, and a truck. he won a "Killed the Stompa ribbon, which now decorates his battlewagon.
I really think the best HQ is the one who rolls the best.
Archon is scary, Shadow Field goes, he goes. A Wyche Lord with a Retinue of Wyches would be a lot better, but watch the "ignore Invuls!" Yeah, I think its the best best dice...

Cuda...