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Bladelord
19-01-2010, 11:05
Have anyone found tactics or options where additional hand weapons are better than other equipment? The only thing I can possible think of right now is Khorne Warriors vs zombies or Dragon Ogres vs low armour T3 troops.

Avian
19-01-2010, 15:09
Against anything where your basic Strength negates their armour and their attacks aren't too threatening to you, additional hand weapons are okay, but they are quite specialised and overall not very good.

Monsterzonk
19-01-2010, 15:19
I've seen them used once at my local GW by a guy with a Khornate army versus O&G. They were murderous. Each Warrior dished out 4 S4 attacks, which resulted in pure carnage! Deployed 6 wide with a champ, that's 25 attacks. Plus it was very much in character. Of course, it's a bit risky against heavily armoured opponents, but they'll start dying soon enough, if you make them take enough saves... My own Khorne WoC will definitely be with AHW.

Cheers,
Monsterzonk :skull:

Harwammer
19-01-2010, 21:00
They work okay with poisoned attacks.

A couple of times with my BoC I've taken my nurgle BSB using vitriolic totem (poisoned attacks for him and unit). I then put him in a beast herd using extra hand weapons and spears, supported by a shaman with an additional hand weapon and goretooth (hatred and bear's anger). The shaman casts bears anger on the bsb.

This unit can pump out over 25 poisoned attacks in combat, including 3 hartred attacks and 6 strength 6 attacks. All poisoned.

Keep in mind extra hand weapons work best against low armour (and low toughness) then they'll do okay. Like against daemonic infantry.

Shamutanti
19-01-2010, 21:41
Have anyone found tactics or options where additional hand weapons are better than other equipment? The only thing I can possible think of right now is Khorne Warriors vs zombies or Dragon Ogres vs low armour T3 troops.

Gors with 2handers > 1hand + shield
Minotaurs with 2handers > Greatweapon
Black Orcs charging something squishy

etc.

o0-NattyMcFatty-0o
19-01-2010, 21:53
To be entirely honest, i find that additional hand weapons arent actually that great unless under the circumstances mentioned above. With warriors i would give them halberds over the extra hand weapon any day, even with MoK because the odds of killing basic infantry (swordsman for example) is slightly better, halberds will generally cause one more kill than additional hand weapons. I would only use them if the enemy was squishy (zombies, goblins, anything with a naf armour save and low touyghness) if i had shrine boosts, if i needed to win a combat and was willing to gamble, if i can spare the points or if i had spells on the enemy that made them worse (transmutation of lead, curse of the leper, wither etc.)

Avian
19-01-2010, 22:24
I've seen them used once at my local GW by a guy with a Khornate army versus O&G. They were murderous. Each Warrior dished out 4 S4 attacks, which resulted in pure carnage! Deployed 6 wide with a champ, that's 25 attacks. Plus it was very much in character. Of course, it's a bit risky against heavily armoured opponents, but they'll start dying soon enough, if you make them take enough saves... My own Khorne WoC will definitely be with AHW.
It is a common misconception that AHW is better on things with lots of Attacks, in fact it's the other way around.

Let me illustrate:
Let us say that you have a model with 20 S3 Attacks. What would you rather have - one extra Attack or one extra Strength?

Khornate Warriors would be a lot better with halberds. 3 S5 attacks are better than 4 S4 against nearly everything.

outbreak
20-01-2010, 07:58
SOme characters can make em work. Skaven plague priest with additional hand weapon, poison, tail weapon. Cheap build dishes up a bucket load of poisoned attacks.

Monsterzonk
20-01-2010, 08:19
It is a common misconception that AHW is better on things with lots of Attacks, in fact it's the other way around.

Let me illustrate:
Let us say that you have a model with 20 S3 Attacks. What would you rather have - one extra Attack or one extra Strength?

Khornate Warriors would be a lot better with halberds. 3 S5 attacks are better than 4 S4 against nearly everything.

I won't deny that. I've never stopped wondering why the Sword of Battle is more expensive than the Sword of Might... I still think that against lower T troops (Empire, Skaven, Gobbos...) the AHW can do very good, especially since WoC are S4! If they were S3 I'd never consider AHW...

warlord hack'a
20-01-2010, 09:01
a 10 man svg orc unit with additional hand weapons and a boss is great, but here is why:
1) orcs have the choppa, so it's not a normal hand weapon, it a hand weapon that gives +1 S in the first round of combat. So deployed 5 wide this gives 4 normal boyz times 3 attacks each = 12 WS 3 S4 attacks in the first round
2) orc bosso get not only one extra attack, but also one extra WS and one extra S, so the boss in the unit dishes out 4 WS4 S5 attacks in the first round
3) this is a small support unit with no armour save, giving them shields for a 5+ save in CC is often of no use, and if they get charged they are buggered anyway, so spears are not really useful either.

For the rest: if you can kill the enemy with your basic strength then either you already have a larger number of attacks as you are super, or the enemy is easy to kill. In either case additional hand weapons are not really needed, though it does make you munch through enemies faster.. But then there is option 3: the enemy is so nasty that even with enhanced strength you will not have a much bigger chance of causing an unsaved wound, in that case more attacks is better. But these instances are very rare indeed.

Agnar the Howler
20-01-2010, 13:40
I won't deny that. I've never stopped wondering why the Sword of Battle is more expensive than the Sword of Might... I still think that against lower T troops (Empire, Skaven, Gobbos...) the AHW can do very good, especially since WoC are S4! If they were S3 I'd never consider AHW...

Against T2 troops (like Skinks) or troops where your base strength is 2 higher than their toughness, AHW are better than Halberds due to the extra attack and how they both wound on 2s, but on T3 and at S4, halberds are still better due to the fact that they're wounding on 2s. Three attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 2s have a better chance of dealing damage than four attacks hitting and wounding on 3s. The former will probably get 2 hits out of 3, with the latter getting somwhere between 2 and 3 (I don't know the exact number after percentages are taken).

The former wounds on 2s, which should, statistically end in both of them wounding, whilst the latter wounds on 3s, which means that with 2 hits, statistically 1 will wound, and with 3 hits, between 1 and 2 will wound, however, both are stastically less likely to get 2+ wounds than a halberd, which would get 2 wounds almost every time.

At least, i hope that's right, looking at the percentages i've come up with draws me to that conclusion, but until someone does the maths (i'm far too tired, so will slip up somewhere) I won't claim it's a solid fact.

warlord hack'a
20-01-2010, 14:53
the math for the above: 3*4/6*5/6=10/6=1.666667 wound (before saves!)
4*4/6*4/6=64/36=slightly BETTER at 1.77778 wound (before saves)

So taking into acount a 5+ or better save, you are better of with the halberd, with a 6+ or no save, the add HW wins with a whole 0.111 wound! ;-).

Avian
20-01-2010, 15:02
Which again goes back to what I said above - if you'd negate their armour anyway, additional hand weapons are okay. They're better, but only marginally so, and if you expect a reasonable amount of foes with armour you're not negating, it's better to go with something else.

Bladelord
20-01-2010, 15:10
Something thats quite fun was that a Khorne warrior unit equipped with AHWs took 0 wounds from my 2 9 man strong lances with 2 paladins, then the warriors killed half of the knights+1 paladin! Ok thats the worst I've ever rolled with dices but still... :P
If you know your opponent's unlucky, go for AHWs else go halberds/great weapons in my opinion.

Avian
20-01-2010, 16:03
If you know your opponent's unlucky, go with nothing but Snotlings, you mean. ;)

JonnyTHM
20-01-2010, 17:19
The one thing that everyone here's statistical analysis here seems to miss is the fact that you should also consider variance, not just expectation value.

Extra hand weapons pay off in particular when additional variance can help you. For instance: if your expected number of wounds caused with either x-hand weapons or GW or halberds are insufficient to defeat your opponent, it can be advantageous to have a higher variance in the number of wounds that you can cause.

If you need 6 wounds to win a combat, it doesn't matter if the expectation value for both setups are the same, if one doesn't let you get 6 wounds and the other does, it is infinitely more likely to succeed.

Agnar the Howler
20-01-2010, 17:27
6 hits, 6 Wounds and 6 Failed Saves along with any ward/regen saves failed too? Highly unlikely to be done with mundane weapons... It may be infinitely more likely to suceed than a 5 attack weapon (for obvious reasons) but it's very very unlikely that it'll suceed at the task set; there is a chance, yes, but it's very slim, and i'd rather have a weapon that gives me more effectiveness in general, that will be good at all times rather than choosing weapons just because at some possible points in the game, there is a very slim chance that it could be better.

If you have 3 attacks with your halberd against empire swordsmen, and you need to kill 4, i'd still keep the halberd. I could kill 3 and only need to test at -1Ld, or with the AHW I could only kill 2 (statistically more likely than killing all 4) meaning that I test on -2Ld, at which point the halberd was still better; yes, I had a chance of killing all 4, but was it likely to happen? No. Was I more likely to kill less than the halberd? Yes. Therefore the AHW actually hurt my chances of winning.

Nurgling Chieftain
20-01-2010, 17:44
The one thing that everyone here's statistical analysis here seems to miss is the fact that you should also consider variance, not just expectation value.

Extra hand weapons pay off in particular when additional variance can help you. For instance: if your expected number of wounds caused with either x-hand weapons or GW or halberds are insufficient to defeat your opponent, it can be advantageous to have a higher variance in the number of wounds that you can cause.I agree that variance is worth considering, but I disagree on the direction you want to look into it from. Getting a slightly higher chance of winning a losing fight is really not what you should be working for - you don't want to be in losing fights in the first place. Instead, it's a good idea to try to reduce variance - i.e., to give yourself a lower chance of blowing a winning fight. And that, counter-intuitively, tends to mean fewer but more powerful attacks.

Kilor the Slayer
20-01-2010, 17:55
Ogre bulls with add. hand weapons,

Throw enough crap at a wall and some of it is bound to stick

warlord hack'a
21-01-2010, 08:34
higher number of attacks means your results will get closer to the average (roll a d6 1000 times and the average of these rolls will be pretty close to 3.5, roll it 2 times and who knows what the averag will be), so will give you a more reliable (= on beforehand mathhammerable ;-)) outcome.

Anyway, if my troops had the option for halberds or GW I would consider them, as it is I am stuck with spears, shield or add hw/choppa, so for me the choice is easy ;-).

Sygerrik
21-01-2010, 20:00
They're great for Gors, because the best save a unit of Gors can achieve is 5+ and as a T4 unit chances are they're going to be testing on 6+ or losing their save entirely. Much better to have 5 extra attacks.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
21-01-2010, 20:04
Militia free companie, charging orcs(It hurts!)

Flash Felix
22-01-2010, 06:06
I wonder though, would additional hand weapons be worth it, if they actually doubled a models base attacks, rather than adding +1 (for an appropriate points adjustment of course).

Would this be overpowered and unbalanced? Would a Dreadlord, Elf Prince be overpowered with 8 S4 attacks? I guess it all comes down to the points paid, but at least it might make additional hand weapons worth considering.

Avian
22-01-2010, 07:52
Would this be overpowered and unbalanced?
That depends on what you mean. It would be pretty horrific on a Chaos Lord who'd get 10 S5 attacks, for example. One of the things I like about mundane weaponry is that they tend to have a case of diminishing returns the more powerful the model is, which is what makes you want to buy magic weapons. Something that doubles your stats (which increase with the power of the model) would have the opposite effect.

I'd much rather have something that made AHWs a bit better for rank and file guys as they often don't have much choice.




Militia free companie, charging orcs(It hurts!)
If that is the scariest thing they have met so far, they are in for a nasty surprise when they run into some of the nastier armies! ;)

Bladelord
22-01-2010, 09:27
Haha that would be awesome with D.Elves. Take a lord with that magical AHW that gives ASF & use the one use only pot that gives +3 str, for a total of 8 str7 ASF hatred atks!

Sygerrik
22-01-2010, 14:42
In 5th edition Frenzy doubled your attacks. A Khornate Chaos Lord therefore had ten attacks. Giving him a Potion of Strength made them all S8 for one turn, and you could also provide him with the Hydra Sword, which multiplied each hit into d6 hits. The maximum possible attacks in one turn, therefore, was 60. All at S8. And you could take two more magic items, as well. And that is why we called it Herohammer.

Bladelord
22-01-2010, 14:55
Ok that sounds quite FREAKING SICK:P

warlord hack'a
22-01-2010, 14:56
and that is why I was VERY glad we got rid of 5th edition. I tried and tried but I could never leave my hydra armed svg orc warboss at home, he was just too good..

Bladelord
22-01-2010, 14:58
Well I started to play Warhammer at the end of the 6th edition & I really enjoyed playing in it even though the high elven units were overpriced & the magic items undercosted.

The SkaerKrow
22-01-2010, 15:07
In my experience, Additional Hand Weapons are only desirable on Strength 4+ Troops and Strength 5+ Characters. Units with lower Strength should opt for items that will increase their Strength or Save instead, if at all possible.