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Bunnahabhain
19-01-2010, 15:00
Simple question, but not an easy answer.

You have one FOC slot. Any codex, any part of the chart, points no object, but it must take up a slot- no infinite lesser daemons etc.

What is the best way to fill it?
The answer is fairly clearly a Guard platoon, anybody want to dispute that? More bodies, tanks and heavy weapons than most full sized armies...

So what is the second best? I have no idea...

SPYDER68
19-01-2010, 15:06
I dunno, Farseer + 10x Warlocks on bikes could give the ig platoon a good run at times depending on placement of everything.

2nd best ? If not the IG, then id guess Farseer + 10x Warlocks all tooled out.

Farseer + Fortune + Runes or Witness and warding

2 locks with embolten
2 locks with enhance
6 with destructor

nagash66
19-01-2010, 15:11
I dunno, Farseer + 10x Warlocks on bikes could give the ig platoon a good run at times depending on placement of everything.

2nd best ? If not the IG, then id guess Farseer + 10x Warlocks all tooled out.

Farseer + Fortune + Runes or Witness and warding

2 locks with embolten
2 locks with enhance
6 with destructor

Do you realise just how much stuff 1 platton can have? 55 men 6 chimeras, heavy weapons support, 6 commisars....

TheHaunted
19-01-2010, 15:15
10 man GK terminator retinue for Brother Captain Stern. Very powerful.

Deftoneus
19-01-2010, 15:17
Are we going for realistic here, or simply just taking an FOC and absolutly trying to kit it out to the teeth to see how nasty it is?

NOB Biker squad comes to mind.

The puppy in me would like to see a unit of wolf-guard armed to the teeth too. May not be the best but I'd enjoy it. :)

SPYDER68
19-01-2010, 15:22
Do you realise just how much stuff 1 platton can have? 55 men 6 chimeras, heavy weapons support, 6 commisars....

Yes i realize this :p

and like i said.

It all depends on terrain, table size, army placement, first turn

PRoeske
19-01-2010, 15:23
@Nagash,
Dont underestimate the fact you only have 5+ saves, and seer council happens to have quiet much heavy flamers in it. In 5th edition you first lay down all the templates, calculate the hits and only then you got to remove models.

Unlike the "best HQ" discussion, the second est slot really depends on the rest of your army. Most of the very best HQ choices fit in almost any kind of army, others choices must have some good synergy (most of the time).

But, to answer your question, i'd say:
- Leman Russ squadron (3x Demolisher + plasma sponsons + Pask)
- Nob biker squads "cheese-loadout"

Grax
19-01-2010, 15:24
It's tempting to just say it's 3 Leman Russes or 3 Carnifexes, but there's a limit to what either unit can do, and a lot of their power is redundant (meaning that 3 isn't really that much better than 2, and 2 isn't that much better than 1).

I'd say it'd probably be a troop choice with an impressive dedicated transport. Land Raiders are impressive, but I believe all the dedicated ones are for elites and HQs. Nobz are impressive, but battlewagons are a little lacking. Dire avengers in wave serpents are really nice, but they need support to really shine.

All things considered, I think the most impressive unit that takes up a single force org slot is a full unit of 10 marine sternguard w/3 combi-meltas, 3 combi-flamers, and a powerfist in a drop pod. If you take pedro as the HQ, they even count as a troop choice.

A close second would be a 10 marine tactical squad w/powerfist, flamer, plasma cannon, and a razorback w/TL lascannon. Half the unit hangs back to claim an objective and fire plasma shots, while the other half rides in the razorback towards the front lines, armed with a flamer and powerfist.

Bunnahabhain
19-01-2010, 15:34
@Nagash,
Dont underestimate the fact you only have 5+ saves, and seer council happens to have quiet much heavy flamers in it. In 5th edition you first lay down all the templates, calculate the hits and only then you got to remove models.


One unit targeted by destructor, one unit dead, 14-20 units left to return fire...
Unless you can get round 'no split targetting' ie by multi charges, you have a problem.



If you take pedro as the HQ, they even count as a troop choice.

That would be two FOC slots though, wouldn't it?

Lord Malorne
19-01-2010, 15:38
Gun drones.

SPYDER68
19-01-2010, 15:39
Wait, is this off of the whole slot ? Like Troops = 6 Troop choices ?

Bunnahabhain
19-01-2010, 15:43
Nope, one FOC slot = one of the 17 slots on the chart. I've always called each of the 17 places a slot, as do at least most of the people I play.

Grax
19-01-2010, 15:49
That would be two FOC slots though, wouldn't it?

Pedro wouldn't be in the unit though, but if you want to count it that way, then that would also cut out Eldar units that need Farseer support, besides the Farseer and his retinue (don't worry, the Warseer Council still counts), and Ork Nobz/Biker Nobz.

If the sternguard don't count as troops, then I have to go with my second choice. A tactical marine squad is the most versatile unit in the game, and capable of fulfilling numerous roles all at the same time, and can easily claim 2 objectives, while their transport contests a third.

Brother captains and GK terminator retinues are almost powerful enough to consider them as a contender, but their lack of a dedicated transport holds them back. They'd need to take the land raider as a heavy choice, disqualifying them.

I've lost count of how many matches I've won because I had one more troop choice in my army than my opponent had. Super powerful units are fine, but if they aren't a scoring unit, then I don't think they're good enough to be considered 'second best force org choice'.

mightymconeshot
19-01-2010, 15:50
an emperor class titan. it takes up a superheavy.

i am assuming that we are going by standard chart then then a DKOK platton should trump a standard one.

Arbedark
19-01-2010, 15:51
10 Wolf Guard with Fully Tricked Out Land Raider
- Arjac Rockfist
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Melta Bombs
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Chain Fist, Melta Bombs
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Assault Cannon, Melta Bombs
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Chain Fist
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Power Fist, Melta Bombs
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Frost Blade, Melta Bombs
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Frost Blade
- Termie Armour, Storm Shield, Assault Cannon

Lord Malorne
19-01-2010, 15:51
an emperor class titan. it takes up a superheavy.

i am assuming that we are going by standard chart then then a DKOK platton should trump a standard one.

Slot not chart padre ;).

I'll change mine to a shooty black templar termie command squad with a high marshal in a crusader, pretty sure that has a good shot against the silly guard ;).

CULCHAIN
19-01-2010, 15:51
I'd agree with th nob bikers then 20 Plague marines with Plague Champ w PF, combi-flamer, Plasma pistol, two special weapons.

massey
19-01-2010, 16:50
Slot not chart padre ;).

I'll change mine to a shooty black templar termie command squad with a high marshal in a crusader, pretty sure that has a good shot against the silly guard ;).

It does take up a slot. You can have up to 3 superheavies in a superheavy chart.

I'm not sold that the IG platoon is the best. After all, depending upon placement, 3 basilisks will ruin their day. A Monolith deep striking into the middle of their lines will hurt, too.

Gen.Steiner
19-01-2010, 17:00
Basic max size of a Guard Platoon: 55 men. Plus 6 Commissars, plus 6 (?) Priests - Max size: 67 men in 6 Chimeras. With FW rules you could give them all Valkyries instead. ;)

Then add in (say) 6 Lascannons/Heavy Bolters, 6 Plasma guns, and 6 Commissar Power Fists, 6 Sergeant Power Swords and 6 Eviscerators, plus a Lt with lots of gear...

...and top off with every possible vehicle upgrade.

et voila!

Charistoph
19-01-2010, 19:58
Black Templar High Marshall + command squad + LRV.

OR

Farsight and the Seven Samurai.

carldooley
19-01-2010, 20:02
a SECOND Infantry Platoon?:p

as for the third through the sixth - more Infantry Platoons?

Grax
19-01-2010, 21:06
Eh, I'm not really impressed by huge units of MEQ troops because they have to move on foot, and ordnance will blow them to bits. I've wiped out entire units of Grey Knights and Berserkers with single battlecannon/earthshaker/devastator shots.

They need a dedicated transport in order to truly be effective, and in units of that size, I still feel that the tactical squad trumps them all for 'game winning' ability. Maybe not overall power, but claiming objectives is more important 2/3 of the time.

Laurela
19-01-2010, 21:17
Angron and his 12 bloodthirster retinue

Askari
19-01-2010, 21:38
3.5 Ed Chaos Chosen....

20-men, all Champions, all with Bikes or Jump Packs or Discs of Tzeentch... ludicrious numbers of ridiculous weaponry... Marks of Khorne and Daemonic Mutation for the crazy attacks... yeah the unit cost something like 3000 points each but still.

Failing that... 20 Plague Marines, and a Rhino with Havoc Launcher, and some Meltaguns, and a Power Fist, just to open up them Chimeras.

Thirdly, from Chaos, 20 Raptors, with Icon of Nurgle/Khorne, and aforementioned Meltaguns/Flamers and Power Fist.
Fast, and big enough to pull off multiple assaults easily.

LonelyPath
19-01-2010, 23:18
After the game I had tonight, The Doom of Malan'tai is very nasty, I had it take out about 20 marines on its own!

Col. Tartleton
20-01-2010, 00:13
Calgar and his Ultramarine honor guard shenanigans are probably second (or first) best. 1 Ubermensch-Superhero and his 30 golden armored retainers including the three champions and the always intimidating Ancient of Macragge maxed out with astartes grenade launchers, combi meltas, and relic blades pretty much dispel any threat that can be applied to them. Not to forget their beefy Landraider.

Your dozens of guardsmen, half dozen tanks, conscripts, officers, sergeants, and special weapons will get their faces eaten.

Bloodriver
20-01-2010, 01:56
Basic max size of a Guard Platoon: 55 men. Plus 6 Commissars, plus 6 (?) Priests - Max size: 67 men in 6 Chimeras. With FW rules you could give them all Valkyries instead. ;)

Then add in (say) 6 Lascannons/Heavy Bolters, 6 Plasma guns, and 6 Commissar Power Fists, 6 Sergeant Power Swords and 6 Eviscerators, plus a Lt with lots of gear...

...and top off with every possible vehicle upgrade.

et voila!

PLUS:

five heavy weapons squads,
two special weapons squads

AND
fifty (count 'em) Conscripts

That's a whole lot of bodies for one slot!

jay court
20-01-2010, 03:04
8 Bloodcrushers. Multiple high-strength power weapon attacks, 3+ save, 5+ inv save. 2 wounds & immune to instant death & they're fearless. Upgrade 1 to have rending.

And each one costs the same as a Terminator!

jay court
20-01-2010, 03:06
Angron and his 12 bloodthirster retinue

Like to see your copy of the Daemon Codex that has that unit in it!:D

Bloodriver
20-01-2010, 03:10
Just did the sums on a fully optioned IG platoon: 164 men, 7 vehicles, 3,055 points! (for a standard platoon, subtract 30 points of wargear and then add 70 points for Capt al'Rahem, so 3,095)

Gutlord Grom
20-01-2010, 03:20
Can you squadron Manticores? I know its a waste of firepower, but I'd imagine three to a slot would lay waste to entire armies(through the power of random scatter! WOOOooooOOO!).

No-One
20-01-2010, 03:42
am i missing something? you can have 164 guardsman take up 1 spot on the FOC, as in, if you went fully hardcore kitted out say for something like apocalypse, you could have over 300 men, just taking up two troops and the command???

WinglessVT2
20-01-2010, 03:46
Farsight, with full bodyguard, and max drones.

Gen.Steiner
20-01-2010, 07:36
Calgar and his Ultramarine honor guard shenanigans are probably second (or first) best ... Your dozens of guardsmen, half dozen tanks, conscripts, officers, sergeants, and special weapons will get their faces eaten.

O RLY!? Try this on for size, Space Marine:


Just did the sums on a fully optioned IG platoon: 164 men, 7 vehicles, 3,055 points! (for a standard platoon, subtract 30 points of wargear and then add 70 points for Capt al'Rahem, so 3,095)

So, let's see, if you swap Al-Rahem for Captain Chenkov, your Conscripts also become effectively infinite, coming back onto the table when they're destroyed or removed by the Guard Player.

Which gives you: 114 Guardsmen in 13 Chimeras (6 for the basic platoon, 5 for the Heavy Weapon Squads and 2 for the Special Weapon Squads, I think?) and 50 Conscripts on foot who have Without Number.

BWAHAHAHAHA. You roll, at 12", 328 dice if they're all equipped solely with lasguns... that's ~164 hits and ~38 saves, and ~12.6 dead Space Marines.

Now swap some of those lasguns for plasma guns and autocannons, and add in the S6 Multilasers, the S8 Hunter-Killer missiles and hull multi-meltas of the Chimeras, and note that the 50 Conscripts make an excellent human shield preventing your Honour Guard from smashing into the main body of the 'platoon'. YOU LOSE. Fnar fnar fnar. :evilgrin:


am i missing something? you can have 164 guardsman take up 1 spot on the FOC, as in, if you went fully hardcore kitted out say for something like apocalypse, you could have over 300 men, just taking up two troops and the command???

Yus. In fact, if you took a full strength Guard company without Conscripts you have:

HQ - CO, 4 Gdsmn, Commissar, Astropath, Naval FOO, Artillery FOO, Nork Deddog, 2 Bodyguards (12)

T1 - HQ (5), five squads (50), five Heavy Weapon squads (60), two SWS (12) = 127 men - so more, in fact, than stated above, even more if you add in Commissars and Priests
T2 - 127 men
T3 - 127 men
T4 - 127 men
T5 - 127 men
T6 - 127 men

Totalling: 774 figures. No idea how many points it is and that's not including special characters or Conscripts or Chimeras (or Valkyries if you use FW rules).

Raxmei
20-01-2010, 08:36
Just did the sums on a fully optioned IG platoon: 164 men, 7 vehicles, 3,055 points! (for a standard platoon, subtract 30 points of wargear and then add 70 points for Capt al'Rahem, so 3,095)Five chimeras for the infantry squads, a sixth for the command squad, and where does the seventh come from?

Can you squadron Manticores? I know its a waste of firepower, but I'd imagine three to a slot would lay waste to entire armies(through the power of random scatter! WOOOooooOOO!).No.

BigRob
20-01-2010, 09:10
O RLY!? Try this on for size, Space Marine:



So, let's see, if you swap Al-Rahem for Captain Chenkov, your Conscripts also become effectively infinite, coming back onto the table when they're destroyed or removed by the Guard Player.

Which gives you: 114 Guardsmen in 13 Chimeras (6 for the basic platoon, 5 for the Heavy Weapon Squads and 2 for the Special Weapon Squads, I think?) and 50 Conscripts on foot who have Without Number.

BWAHAHAHAHA. You roll, at 12", 328 dice if they're all equipped solely with lasguns... that's ~164 hits and ~38 saves, and ~12.6 dead Space Marines.

Now swap some of those lasguns for plasma guns and autocannons, and add in the S6 Multilasers, the S8 Hunter-Killer missiles and hull multi-meltas of the Chimeras, and note that the 50 Conscripts make an excellent human shield preventing your Honour Guard from smashing into the main body of the 'platoon'. YOU LOSE. Fnar fnar fnar. :evilgrin:



Yus. In fact, if you took a full strength Guard company without Conscripts you have:

HQ - CO, 4 Gdsmn, Commissar, Astropath, Naval FOO, Artillery FOO, Nork Deddog, 2 Bodyguards (12)

T1 - HQ (5), five squads (50), five Heavy Weapon squads (60), two SWS (12) = 127 men - so more, in fact, than stated above, even more if you add in Commissars and Priests
T2 - 127 men
T3 - 127 men
T4 - 127 men
T5 - 127 men
T6 - 127 men

Totalling: 774 figures. No idea how many points it is and that's not including special characters or Conscripts or Chimeras (or Valkyries if you use FW rules).

I'm confused, the OP said one slot, So 1 Troops choice only. Where are you getting HQ and the other bits comming from like the HW/SW teams. Is there some sneaky rule in codex IG that lets you have all this for one Troops choice? (It wouldn't surprise me).

Bloodriver
20-01-2010, 09:16
Five chimeras for the infantry squads, a sixth for the command squad, and where does the seventh come from?
No.

OOPS! My bad - I gave them 6 squads rather than five. :eek:

So, 153 men, 6 vehicles, 2,760 points. Not nearly as formidable!

Vaktathi
20-01-2010, 09:20
I'm confused, the OP said one slot, So 1 Troops choice only. Where are you getting HQ and the other bits comming from like the HW/SW teams. Is there some sneaky rule in codex IG that lets you have all this for one Troops choice? (It wouldn't surprise me).

IG platoons consist of the follow

Minimum: 1 platoon command squad, 2 infantry squads

Total allowed units from 1 single Troops Choice of an Infantry Platoon:

1 Platoon Command Squad w/ Chimera
5 Infantry Squads w/ Chimeras
5 Heavy Weapon Squads
2 Special Weapon Squads
1 Conscript Squad.

In total, 6 Chimeras, 153 Infantry (counting each HW team as 2) and including 6 Commissars (an upgrade option for the PCS and IS's)

Lord Solar Plexus
20-01-2010, 09:32
Calgar and his Ultramarine honor guard


Are still two slots, not one.



Your dozens of guardsmen, half dozen tanks, conscripts, officers, sergeants, and special weapons will get their faces eaten.

You're joking, are you?

Arbedark
20-01-2010, 10:21
Are still two slots, not one.

Actually Honor Guard don't take up a slot.

Corpse
20-01-2010, 11:10
Well you can run 20 possessed with a defensive icon and hope for a decent roll.

I assume there is no synergies like fabius needs buying before making a 20 size enhanced squad with icon.

Tyranid Carnifex Unit maybe. Or a C'Tan, since those could potentially take out 57ish GEQ with the 5 chimeras granted enough time.

3.5 chaos codex I used to run loads of khorne champs on bikes with 4 chaos hounds each. Man I miss those days. IIRC you could make a champ squad well over 5k in points, numbering 60+ models.


Plague marines may be the better all rounded option... If you consider a super heavy vehicle an option, then its a no brainer.



But considering difficulties of positioning. A single long range vehicle can destroy anything it outranges long enough to destroy them....

Otherwise I put my cash on skyleaping Swooping Hawks with grenade upgrades.. They could take out the guard, if given all the time in the world.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-01-2010, 12:42
Actually Honor Guard don't take up a slot.

Ah, you're right, my bad.

Nurgling Chieftain
20-01-2010, 17:38
What if it turns out to be a kill point mission? The 150+ guardsmen come face to face with... Wait for it...

A single lone wolf. :D

"NOOO!!!! Run, everybody, run!"

Bunnahabhain
20-01-2010, 17:44
But the other 2/3rds the time, all those massive elite units have a similar sized problem.

No, we're only the ten best warriors in the chapter, with the best armour available, we can't possibly secure this objective...

FashaTheDog
20-01-2010, 18:49
As Guard take this hands down with a single Troops choice falling just shy of Apocalypse levels no question, the runner up would be dependent on the situation. Are there objectives, size of table, and is there a turn limit are all important.

Assuming that we are on a 4'x6' in a death match with standard game length, I would lean towards:

NIDS: Tyrant with all the fixings, wings, Paroxysm, and an assault loadout with Guard. As most other choices are a single uber unit and transport, making the uber unit WS 1 & BS 1 and charging in would go a long way. A Swarmlord might be a better choice due to the 4+ invul.

PUPPIES: Wolf Guard uber unit.

ELDAR: Seer Council.

SMURFS: Papa Smurf and friends.

DAEMONS: Bloodcrushers.

NECRONS: C'Tan.

ORKS: Nob Bikers.

DARK ELDAR: No. Vect if you had to.

O. HERETICUS: Cannoness and retinue.

ALT. GUARD: Russ squadron.

CSM: Tzeench Termies.

Vrigor
22-03-2012, 03:18
Its been a few years now, kind of curious if anythings come up to challenge the guard platoon in the newer books

agurus1
22-03-2012, 03:43
never, you can't really stick enough killy/scoring/armoured assistance into a single FOC slot like you can with a Guard Platoon. Heck, you even still get some orders!

Chem-Dog
22-03-2012, 04:00
IG are number one for this without a doubt, the Platoon can bring as many useful units (and conscripts) to the table as many other armies.

Second place, however, I think probably goes to the Blood Angels Death Company. It can cost more points than most average games run in at, it jumps, it feels no pain and it's chock full of meltapistols and thunderhammers. Ok it can't capture objectives but you can bet it'll scour them clean for little johnny lone-scout.

I think, given time, the full monty DC will hand the IG platoon its collective backside. Maybe the IG can throw out enough shots to dent them. Just maybe.

I might try to run that game, for laughs.

DietDolphin
22-03-2012, 04:05
I don't think anyone has said this yet (I couldn't see it skim reading...)

30 man Death Company with Lemartes
All with Jump packs
All with dual Thunderhammers/powerweapons
6x Plasma/inferno pistols/hand flamers

EDIT: Ninja'd by Chem-Dog

EDIT II: For anyone who thinks anything could possibly kill a whole platoon, remember you can give that platoon Chenkov and make a 50 man conscript squad without number...

Chem-Dog
22-03-2012, 04:09
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Lemartes.

agurus1
22-03-2012, 06:46
only problem is that the Platoon can chuck out quite a lot of shooting that will ignore your armour & FNP into the bargain. lets talk plasma guns, meltaguns, missile launchers, and lascannons. At the very least you can see what, 5 heavy weapons teams from the Infantry Squads, and an additional 9 from 3 man heavy weapons squads? ( so lets say ~14 lascannons/missile launchers) then 5 special weapons from the IS, 4 from the Platoon, and 4 from Special Weapons Squads (only 4 because I want to take some Demo Charges - S8 AP3 Large Blast). So lets assume all the special weapons are plasmaguns. thats an additional 14 AP2 shots within 24", and make it 28 within 12". No to mention that the IS can have 2 power weapons per squad! Over all its looking pretty harsh for your death company, and this is without factoring in all the lasguns (FRFSRF?) and Chimera born weapons. Not to mention that a clever player will use the Chimeras to lure the Death Company away from the Platoon itself. I'm no Mathhammer man, but it looks pretty bleak for the Blood Angels there...

insectum7
22-03-2012, 08:26
Calgar and his Ultramarine honor guard shenanigans are probably second (or first) best. 1 Ubermensch-Superhero and his 30 golden armored retainers including the three champions and the always intimidating Ancient of Macragge maxed out with astartes grenade launchers, combi meltas, and relic blades pretty much dispel any threat that can be applied to them. Not to forget their beefy Landraider.


Unfortunately they can't get Combi-meltas. Or Land Raiders.

I wouldn't mind seeing them drop onto a deployed platoon in a few drop pods with deathwind launchers, and spraying frag grenades everywhere. It would certainly have a cinematic feel to it. Depending on the terrain you might have a pretty good battle too.

carldooley
22-03-2012, 14:12
Don't forget - Demo Charges are AP2. And I LOVE dropping them on terminators.

Bunnahabhain
22-03-2012, 14:24
Don't forget - Demo Charges are AP2. And I LOVE dropping them on terminators.

I love dropping them on terminators, the scenery, the unit throwing them, the unit behind the one throwing them and anywhere else the whim of the scatter dice takes them. Not that reliable, but fun...

Maarten K
22-03-2012, 15:01
So lets assume all the special weapons are plasmaguns. thats an additional 14 AP2 shots within 24", and make it 28 within 12". No to mention that the IS can have 2 power weapons per squad!
1 guard platoon weapon load-out:

1 platoon HQ: 2 plasma pistols, 4 plasmaguns, 2 powerweapons/fist
5 infantry squads: 10 plasma pistols, 5 plasmaguns, 5 lascannons, 30 lasguns, 10 powerweapons
5 heavy weapon squads: 15 lascannons
2 special weapon squads: 4 plasmaguns, 2 democharges (or 6 democharges...), 6 lasguns
6 chimera's: 6 multilasers, 6 heavy stubbers, 6 multi melta's, 6 hunter-killer missiles
1 conscripts: 50 lasguns (BS2...)

Konovalev
22-03-2012, 15:17
10 vanguard veterans, jump packs, storm shields, couple thunder hammers, relic blade for the sargeant, meltabombs. Heroic intervention, assault off deepstrike. something like 500pts of overpriced death.

Gertjan
22-03-2012, 15:18
I love dropping them on terminators, the scenery, the unit throwing them, the unit behind the one throwing them and anywhere else the whim of the scatter dice takes them. Not that reliable, but fun...

I truly have my suspicions that the quartermaster of my regiment forgets to tell my guardsmen what to do with a demo charge on purpose, it can be the only explanation, or tells them it's extra rations for that cold night. The only thing I am sure of is that not a single guardsman who has a demo charge knows it's supposed to be thrown at the enemy...

trigger
22-03-2012, 15:19
Death company , can't you have 30 of them or something stupid. With all the power weapons , thunder hammers , lemartes and inferno pistols you can have , I recon you guard platoon would get ploged , well and truly a case of bad juju for s3

roirin
22-03-2012, 15:21
Farsight
7 Man Crisis squad all with BS4 Missile Pods, 4-5 Plasma rifles and a couple of metla's, 10 shields drones and 4 marker drones. They could all shoot at different Targets, outrange pretty much the whole guard platoon. Plus they could take the airburster which could easily remove a unit a turn. They d also have the suicide bomb to escape combat. + all the little extras they get.

They would be a bit scared of a landraider but not much else.

Chem-Dog
22-03-2012, 18:51
So lets assume all the special weapons are plasmaguns. thats an additional 14 AP2 shots within 24", and make it 28 within 12".

With a threat radius of 18" you're not going to get too many chances to shoot with anything at sub 24" range....


No to mention that the IS can have 2 power weapons per squad!

A single IG infantry squad has virtually no chance of surviving long enough to use them, you COULD blob the infantry Platoon up to give you 10 PW's in a 55 man squad, but against a squad that carries Boltpistols as standard, you can bet a lot less than 55 men are standing by the time the Charge occurs, and then it's S5/I5 attacks aplenty. Even then, I've always found IG sarges really struggle with wounding a T4 models.


Over all its looking pretty harsh for your death company

I did nominate the DC for second best. ;)


and this is without factoring in all the lasguns (FRFSRF?)

4's to hit (5's for the conscripts), 5's to wound, saved on a 3+ then anything not saved ignored on a 4+, them's some slim odds....


Not to mention that a clever player will use the Chimeras to lure the Death Company away from the Platoon itself.

Chimeras are awfully fragile and nowhere near threatening enough on their own, if they're zipping about they're not shooting at full effect, if they're stationary they're sitting targets that block LoS nicely.


I'm no Mathhammer man, but it looks pretty bleak for the Blood Angels there...

I'm not either, but, as an IG player, I suspect the DC could do some horrible horrible damage to a full platoon and that it's far from the foregone conclusion that the other IG generals here seem to think it is.

FashaTheDog
22-03-2012, 19:51
Actually Chem-Dog, you probably would get to rapid fire loads of squads as the easiest solution to Death Company would be to line up the platoon in such a manner as to force feed the Death Company a few units that it will annihilate without effort, using their rage rule against them, then drop them with sheer weight of fire. It's clear that there is very little that will survive the charge, but fortunately for the Guard, the platoon is a bunch of units so they can happily sacrifice a few per turn. Besides, there is still plenty of fire at 24" or more - 7 hunter killer missiles, 21 lascannons at 48", 6 multilasers 6 heavy bolters and 6 heavy stubbers at 36", and at 24" you get a single shot from all those lasguns and plasma guns. Figure no losses to dangerous terrain and the unit gets cover from everything, 1 hunter killer missile, 4 lascannon wounds get through, as does another wound from the Chimeras, and perhaps another wound from the rest, figuring not everything gets to fire, but a few plasma guns do. That's more than a fifth of the Death Company down. In return they'll likely eat two or three units and even with a 6" consolidation, they still face the rest of the survivors who will be in a nice position to mow them down like Michael Caine did in Zulu. And if that fails and there are infinite turns, win by attrition with unlimited Conscripts.

I agree that this is indeed a fight that should be played and with rage on the Death Company, can be done by one person. The question is what will be the exact lists used so that if there are people here who do it, they are all on the same page, but what would be the game parameters, line up and die with a standard turn limit?

For the Guard, what:

Command: Chenkov, vox, medi-pack, lascannon, Commissar, plasma pistol, power claw
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Special: Plasma guns
Special: Plasma guns
50 Conscripts: Send in the Next Wave

What about the Death Company:

Lemartes, 30 Death Company, jump packs, and what options would be ideal for this match, hand flamers and a mix of power weapons and twin thunder hammers?

yabbadabba
22-03-2012, 20:14
My apologies but I am mostly playing WFB at the moment and don't have any 40K codexes but if it is dependent on various conditions wouldn't an use every turn off-table barrage be a good choice, if any codex still has them?

No VPs to give away, no KPs either.

Aside from that I don't think there is a single FoC choice that can give out as much damage, combat or otherwise, than a full IG platoon. Of course getting it all to work at once could be fun!

Sir_Turalyon
22-03-2012, 20:52
All these Guard squads would be difficult to deploy and concentrate their fire, especially if they all trace LOS to a single unit in HQ slot vs HQ slot battle. I would rearm the infrantry squads with flamers and Mortars; with this many units someone has to be deployed behind, and they should be able to fire despite no LOS. Conscripts go forward to act as cover (espacially if they are without number), lascannon heavy weapon squads sit in Chimeras to make full use of top hatch (shooting over Conscripts so they are in cover but target isn't), special weapons and command squad lurk between chimeras to harass enemies if they make it close, whoever has deploy behind this probably can't see anything anyway so they may fire mortars on any infrantry present and counterassault with power weapons / comissars / flamers if some enemirs make it past chimeras.

Radium
23-03-2012, 08:17
I'd say the SECOND best for killing/surviving potential is actually Death Company - if the cost is not factored into the equation.
30 Death Company with Jump Packs, Lemartes, 10 Thunder Hammers, 20 Power Weapons, 15 Storm Shields and 15 Infernus Pistols AND a Land Raider with all the cool bits you like.

insectum7
23-03-2012, 09:07
For the Guard, what:

Command: Chenkov, vox, medi-pack, lascannon, Commissar, plasma pistol, power claw
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Special: Plasma guns
Special: Plasma guns
50 Conscripts: Send in the Next Wave

What about the Death Company:

Lemartes, 30 Death Company, jump packs, and what options would be ideal for this match, hand flamers and a mix of power weapons and twin thunder hammers?


Don't forget to give your BA character the Virus Grenade wargear card.

insectum7
23-03-2012, 09:07
For the Guard, what:

Command: Chenkov, vox, medi-pack, lascannon, Commissar, plasma pistol, power claw
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Infantry: Commissar, 2 power weapons, 2 plasma pistols, plasma gun, lascannon, vox
Chimera: Multilaser, heavy bolter, hunter killer missile, heavy stubber, extra armor, dozer blade
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Heavy: Lascannons
Special: Plasma guns
Special: Plasma guns
50 Conscripts: Send in the Next Wave

What about the Death Company:

Lemartes, 30 Death Company, jump packs, and what options would be ideal for this match, hand flamers and a mix of power weapons and twin thunder hammers?


Don't forget to give your BA character the Virus Grenade wargear card. :)

The Marshel
23-03-2012, 10:37
i always feel kinda cheated by the guard dex when ever the whole "best" FOC discussion comes up. I know they they dont break any rules for it with their platoons, but it feel very much more like following the word of the law rather then the spirit of it

Bunnahabhain
23-03-2012, 11:58
i always feel kinda cheated by the guard dex when ever the whole "best" FOC discussion comes up. I know they they dont break any rules for it with their platoons, but it feel very much more like following the word of the law rather then the spirit of it

What is the alternative? Reducing the troops entry to 'veterans', because they don't quite get enough complaints yet?

I'd like to reform the platoon a bit, but they have been a big part of the Guard since 2nd ed. They're not going anywhere.

orkmiester
23-03-2012, 12:04
i always feel kinda cheated by the guard dex when ever the whole "best" FOC discussion comes up. I know they they dont break any rules for it with their platoons, but it feel very much more like following the word of the law rather then the spirit of it

the platoons are still probably the most poweful FOC slot (and don't even mention the fact that if you really wanted to go mad you can take six:skull:)


however, it dosen't disguise the fact that i tend to see 'mech vets' more often- for the simple reason they hit more often, and it makes the army easier to handle. Though i have heard the odd story that a mech army came up agaisnt an 'old style' ig army and got splattered;)

just my humble opinion:angel:

yabbadabba
23-03-2012, 15:22
i always feel kinda cheated by the guard dex when ever the whole "best" FOC discussion comes up. I know they they dont break any rules for it with their platoons, but it feel very much more like following the word of the law rather then the spirit of it I think the only time it is a problem mate is in Apoc games when the opponent doesn't have enough templates, and threads like this. The huge majority of 40K games just make a mockery of being able to take that much hardware, which is why Vets get more of an outing.

Don't sweat it fella.

stereynolds
23-03-2012, 16:11
30 man deathcompany
- Jump Packs
- Character upgrades dude
- 5 Fists
- 5 power weapons
- 5 melta pistols
- 5 flamer pistols

ColShaw
23-03-2012, 16:27
the platoons are still probably the most poweful FOC slot (and don't even mention the fact that if you really wanted to go mad you can take six:skull:)


however, it dosen't disguise the fact that i tend to see 'mech vets' more often- for the simple reason they hit more often, and it makes the army easier to handle. Though i have heard the odd story that a mech army came up agaisnt an 'old style' ig army and got splattered;)

just my humble opinion:angel:

My Infantry IG tend to wreck MechVets (hmm... MeltaVets? Have fun with that, guys...), which is always good for some entertainment.

LonelyPath
24-03-2012, 14:11
This is a tough one for me to pick, but I have a few options that pop to mind:

Full IG Infantry Platioon (with all those chimeras, commissars, conscripts, SWS and HWS)
3 Hydra Flak Tanks (very cheap and effective)
3 LR Demolishers (all with plasma sponsons)
LR Demolisher + 2 Executioners (all with plasma sponsons)
Nob Bikers
Nobz in Battlewagon
Doom of Malan'tai in Spore
3 Zoanthropes in Spore
10 Paladins

jay court
25-03-2012, 03:29
30 Death Company with 2 Thunder Hammers each & with jump packs led by Lemartes...

lantzkev
25-03-2012, 05:03
30 Death Company with 2 Thunder Hammers each & with jump packs led by Lemartes...

Would be funny to see that squad against a psychotroke grenade squad =P

The Marshel
25-03-2012, 06:58
I'm not saying I think platoons are unfair, I quite like them, but when these "best foc" threads pop up and are dominated by platoon mini armies it just sucks the fun out of it.

Sqallum
25-03-2012, 10:26
Mortis Pattern Contemptor Dreadnought - Twin Kheres Assault Cannons and/or Cyclone Missle Launcher. 12 S6, Rending, BS5 shots. 2 S4 Blast Templates. Prepare to die, Guardsmen :D
Sqallum

The Marshel
25-03-2012, 13:01
Mortis Pattern Contemptor Dreadnought - Twin Kheres Assault Cannons and/or Cyclone Missle Launcher. 12 S6, Rending, BS5 shots. 2 S4 Blast Templates. Prepare to die, Guardsmen :D
Sqallum

alternatively, fire the krak missiles and really mess up a light tanks day!

Bunnahabhain
25-03-2012, 13:35
Mortis Pattern Contemptor Dreadnought - Twin Kheres Assault Cannons and/or Cyclone Missle Launcher. 12 S6, Rending, BS5 shots. 2 S4 Blast Templates. Prepare to die, Guardsmen :D
Sqallum

That's good. You've just killed one heavy weapons squad rather dead. Now, those other four squad ( 12 lascannons), and the rest of the platoon with melta guns etc would like a word.....

FashaTheDog
25-03-2012, 16:54
That's good. You've just killed one heavy weapons squad rather dead. Now, those other four squad ( 12 lascannons), and the rest of the platoon with melta guns etc would like a word.....

Actually, the official Guard reply to the Contemptor would be "tee-hee."

Chem-Dog
25-03-2012, 17:11
That's good. You've just killed one heavy weapons squad rather dead. Now, those other four squad ( 12 lascannons), and the rest of the platoon with melta guns etc would like a word.....

Three words. Bring. It. Down.

terradax
25-03-2012, 17:35
Don't know if it's already posted, but I would go for 30 Deathcompany figures with Thunderhammers and jumppacks led by Lemartes. Not pretty...

Draconis
25-03-2012, 20:54
Do you realise just how much stuff 1 platton can have? 55 men 6 chimeras, heavy weapons support, 6 commisars....

This just goes to prove that Cruddace went over the top with his favorite army.

Gaargod
25-03-2012, 21:52
Actually, I feel platoons are fine. Yes, you can theoretically have an absolute ton of stuff, but they're not free. Certainly up to 2000pts, the fact you can take that massive amount of units in one slot is both fine and fluffy. At 2500pts+, you can argue that some armies (nids) are running out of useful slots and are just splurging inefficiently, but at 3k+ you should really be using apocalypse or modified FOC, so it's not like it really matters.

Makes these kinds of discussions a bit onesided though. The problem with the death company deathstar vs super platoon example is it totally depends on terrain, setup, etc. The IG theoretically have a hell of a lot of guns - but they won't be able to bring all those guns to bear, not by a long way. If the DC start on one flank, about 24" away with 1st turn, the IG will only get one turn of shooting before things start dying. And the closer they are together, in order to actually shoot, the more units the DC can simultaneously hit. Conscripts can do a reasonable job of blocking, but chimeras are surprisingly ineffective against them - the problem is if you contact even one guardsmen, that whole unit is in combat. And will likely vanish due to massive combat resolution won by the DC. If they don't, and hold via stubborn, well that's hardly a problem for the DC to be stuck in combat!

Tis the problem with mathhammer. Yes, if the IG are given a perfect situation, even one round of shooting will basically annihilate the unit. And, theoretically, the IG can sacrifice one unit a turn to them - but any decent player will be hitting at the very least 3 per turn, probably a lot more.


Of course, in an actual game situation, the platoon is stupidly better. A lot more autonomous, and can actually score!

dangerboyjim
25-03-2012, 22:54
I don't think anyone has said this yet (I couldn't see it skim reading...)

30 man Death Company with Lemartes
All with Jump packs
All with dual Thunderhammers/powerweapons
6x Plasma/inferno pistols/hand flamers

EDIT: Ninja'd by Chem-Dog

EDIT II: For anyone who thinks anything could possibly kill a whole platoon, remember you can give that platoon Chenkov and make a 50 man conscript squad without number...


I was going to suggest that, as long as the marines kill the conscripts last it's game over, tabled. It would take a while, but it would be interesting. Could the guard whittle enough marines off before they were annhilated... My guess is yes...

bobafett_h
26-03-2012, 01:08
Back in the 3.5 Chaos Codex, I always thought of the possibilities of a maxed out unit of Chosen (20 models) all mounted on Juggernauts with Axes of Khorne and Plasma Pistols. It would have been very expensive (in terms of both points and dollars) but would have been able to kill just about everything except AV13/14. It would have been an insane amount of attacks on the charge.

The Marshel
26-03-2012, 02:53
This just goes to prove that Cruddace went over the top with his favorite army.

Not really... You still have to pay full points for all that stuff and the individual elements are frankly quite ****, only becoming worthwhile as a group. Sure you get tonns of troops but outside troops guard tends to be a tad low model count in terms of bodies on the board. At the end of the day though people still favor vets, which says enough really

Infidel
26-03-2012, 06:10
Not much necron love in this thread, but I'd like to bring it to your attention.

Nemesor Zahndrekh
Vagard Obyron (doesn't take up an HQ slot)
Royal Court
5x Necron Lord - MSS, 2+/3++, Tesseract Labyrinth, Warscythe
1x Chronotek - Chronometron, 3++
4x Destructotek - Solar Pulse, Cloak of Flame

The layout of the Crypteks can probably use some optimising, but this is a mean mean blob of death. The whole unit is T5, 4+ RP and you get 8x 2+/3++ wounds, 3x 2+ wounds, 1x 4+/3++ wounds and 4x 5+ wounds. Chrono allows a reroll per phase, you've got 4 S8AP2 36" assault guns and in melee, not much can stand up against 5 sets of MSS and 12 warscythe attacks.

Wildchild200
26-03-2012, 09:22
You could also get Marneus Calgar and 30 Honour guard (he unlocks up to three squads and none of them count towards force org) Then a Razorback for each one. Honour guard can have auxillary grenade launchers and relic blades. Razorbacks can have lascannons to take out tanks. I Reckon that would put a dent in the IG Company.

Chem-Dog
26-03-2012, 11:54
This just goes to prove that Cruddace went over the top with his favorite army.

Not really, the platoon has been a key component of the IG army build since 3rd Edition.
The most significant change made to the Platoons was removing the link between Vets and Platoons, which made them unnecessary.
And it still doesn't make up for heavy weapon teams.


Not really... You still have to pay full points for all that stuff and the individual elements are frankly quite ****, only becoming worthwhile as a group.

Exactly the IG has ALWAYS been about quantity over quality, and I can't see any more sensible way of doing it than allowing multiple small infantry units to count as one FoC choice. Having a Maximum possible of 6 Infantry squads would suck badly, it'd also mean IG armies would be mainly composed of Leman Russes.


You could also get Marneus Calgar and 30 Honour guard (he unlocks up to three squads and none of them count towards force org) Then a Razorback for each one. Honour guard can have auxillary grenade launchers and relic blades. Razorbacks can have lascannons to take out tanks. I Reckon that would put a dent in the IG Company.

I think he was pooh-poohed exactly for bringing FoC free units to the game. And if you're blinging them out the teeth, why stop at Razorbacks?

Wildchild200
26-03-2012, 12:28
Oh right, i saw he was mentioned earlier but nothing about the three squads he unlocks. My bad. and the honour guards only get the option of drop pod, rhino or razorback as a dedicated transport, so thats all the heavy weapons you can get.