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catbarf
19-01-2010, 23:45
This is not a general whinefest- this is me wondering about some of the questionable design choices.

Overall, I'm satisfied with the new codex. Lots of cool new options, improvements to some existing units, and many aspects that remind me strongly of 2nd Ed.

But what I don't understand are a few options that make it clear that the designers just didn't think it through. They seem like they were written without much thought and then never playtested. A few examples include:

-Spike Rifles. For 1pt, you go from a 12" single-shot bolter to an 18" single-shot lasgun. What? If it were free, I could potentially see a bit of usefulness, but for an increase in cost? No way.

-Stranglewebs. The vast majority of units in the game have S equal to T. I can see the special wounds-against-S rules being used against Orks, and that's about it. And in any case, a Termagant with Strangleweb costs as much as three normal Termagants. Running a bit of math, in order for the Strangleweb to be better than 3 Fleshborers in killing power against Guardsmen, the Strangleweb has to cover 5 enemies with one shot. And even in that case, the Fleshborer-armed ones are three times harder to kill. Pinning is small compensation.

-Spinefists on Termagants. They're no better than Fleshborers against Marines, and even against Guard aren't good enough to recoup their cost. They're a reasonably good choice on Warriors, but not for Gaunts.

-Pyrovores. Just why.

But the worst of all:

-Deathspitters vs Devourers on Monstrous Creatures. They're the same price. The Deathspitters have the advantage of AP5 instead of AP-. The Devourers have a point higher S, twice as many shots, and force morale tests at -1Ld. Which would you take?

I can understand that the designers can't foresee every last overpowered combination or underpowered unit, but this is a bit ridiculous. These people are ostensibly professionals, and yet from what I'ver seen, none among them have even a rudimentary grasp of probability. I'd assume that to write and release a rulebook, GW would have qualified gamers and developers analyzing and testing the rules- but this seems not to be the case.

Is there something I'm missing here?

LKHERO
19-01-2010, 23:53
What I find appalling is:
1. Carnifexes should be 120 points. Not the cost they're currently at. This is a balance problem.
2. You can't take a 2+ upgrade for them. Seriously? That upgrade was BUILT for them. This is a design problem.
3. GW's general ploy of making you buy more models in the form of Trevigons (a lot of Gaunts) and Hive Guard. The good units means you have to buy more.

catbarf
19-01-2010, 23:55
I agree with your first two points, but that's really a balance issue more than anything else. What I'm looking at are the options which are downright useless, not just overpriced. Things you have no reason to take, as opposed to Carnifexes where you might use them even though they're not the best.

Rick Blaine
20-01-2010, 00:13
I'm guessing design choice for most of these. Spike rifles, Stranglewebs, and Spine fists are things that they didn't really want in the army, but included them so veterans would maybe moan a little less about invalidated models. Hence the slightly less than optimal pricing that allows you to field your old models with little harm to your competitiveness, but discourages people from building more of these variants.

About the Deathspitter/Devourer thing, I'm guessing they had a Heavy Deathspitter variant at one point, then took it out and forgot to reduce the price. Typical copy/paste error that happens when you go back and forth between different playtest versions.

Pyrovores are fine.

Putty
20-01-2010, 00:18
i feel that the new nid codex has a lot of knee jerk reactions to the complaints nid haters.

hive tyrant... overloaded with things we don't need = wasted points. WHERE IS MY BS 4?

carnifex... overloaded with things we don't need = wasted points

pyrovore... buy spore pods when we release them!

hive guard... buy new metal models!

tyrant guard... you brought 6 of these? it sucks to be you!

I don't know about you guys but although the amount of new units have bulked up the army considerably, but if you look harder, you will realize that the unit biomorph options have in fact shrunk. and the weapon biomorphs, although multiplied, most of them aren't very different from each other.

i am actually fine with the new bloated carnifex point cost because now there are more viable options in heavy support... but paying 170 points BASE for a Hive Tyrant HQ that is NOT A SPECIAL character is a bit hard to swallow.

IMHO, the Hive Tyrant with this stat-line should be 120 points base with only Synapse free and we get to pick what we want for it. Max 3 Psychic powers, and all weapon biomorphs are between 5 - 20 points.

and Tyrant Guards? good lord... why 60 points for a unit that can't shoot?!?

and Hive Guard should have been a Tyrant Guard upgrade tbh.

some consolation is in the reduced points for Gargoyles (oh buy new models please) and they fixed Zoanthropes.

druchii
20-01-2010, 00:21
This is not a general whinefest- this is me wondering about some of the questionable design choices.

Overall, I'm satisfied with the new codex. Lots of cool new options, improvements to some existing units, and many aspects that remind me strongly of 2nd Ed.

But what I don't understand are a few options that make it clear that the designers just didn't think it through. They seem like they were written without much thought and then never playtested. A few examples include:

-Spike Rifles. For 1pt, you go from a 12" single-shot bolter to an 18" single-shot lasgun. What? If it were free, I could potentially see a bit of usefulness, but for an increase in cost? No way.

-Stranglewebs. The vast majority of units in the game have S equal to T. I can see the special wounds-against-S rules being used against Orks, and that's about it. And in any case, a Termagant with Strangleweb costs as much as three normal Termagants. Running a bit of math, in order for the Strangleweb to be better than 3 Fleshborers in killing power against Guardsmen, the Strangleweb has to cover 5 enemies with one shot. And even in that case, the Fleshborer-armed ones are three times harder to kill. Pinning is small compensation.

-Spinefists on Termagants. They're no better than Fleshborers against Marines, and even against Guard aren't good enough to recoup their cost. They're a reasonably good choice on Warriors, but not for Gaunts.

-Pyrovores. Just why.

But the worst of all:

-Deathspitters vs Devourers on Monstrous Creatures. They're the same price. The Deathspitters have the advantage of AP5 instead of AP-. The Devourers have a point higher S, twice as many shots, and force morale tests at -1Ld. Which would you take?

I can understand that the designers can't foresee every last overpowered combination or underpowered unit, but this is a bit ridiculous. These people are ostensibly professionals, and yet from what I'ver seen, none among them have even a rudimentary grasp of probability. I'd assume that to write and release a rulebook, GW would have qualified gamers and developers analyzing and testing the rules- but this seems not to be the case.

Is there something I'm missing here?

I've been pondering that whole Brainleeches/Deathspitter thing for like a week now. Why the heck wouldn't I want the more, s6 shots? Goofy if you ask me, the spitter ought to be cheaper.

A friend of mine thought initially that stranglewebs ignored armor saves. And even with that thought in mind, I thought they'd be only alright but when I arrived home and found they still allowed saves, while wounding just about EVERYTHING in the game on 5s, I just laughed and turned the page.

Same deal with spike rifles and spine fists...Atleast make the spinefist s4, TL with ap-, now people have a dilemma. More shots hitting, but with no AP? agaisnt some things like marines it's better, but seems worse agaisnt guard, or other 5+ save goons (or whatever, that's an illustration).


What I find appalling is:
1. Carnifexes should be 120 points. Not the cost they're currently at. This is a balance problem.
2. You can't take a 2+ upgrade for them. Seriously? That upgrade was BUILT for them. This is a design problem.
3. GW's general ploy of making you buy more models in the form of Trevigons (a lot of Gaunts) and Hive Guard. The good units means you have to buy more.

1. Fexes should be 130-140. 120 is too generous. Thus the pendulum swings back the other way.
2. The lack of a 2+ on them actually made me scratch my head, as it is it seems like the tyrannofex and the tyrant are the only two that have access to it.
3. Extra models? You mean a carnifex kit? Oh, you mean you can actually salvage all those extra carnifex kits you bought last edition? Usually people are happy when the units they got by the truckloads are BETTER, but only on the internet will people complain about units that never saw the light of day getting used wholesale.

Every army has to "buy more" when a new codex pops out, that's the way it is. It isn't a problem central to tyranids. It's more pronounced because people leaned more towards the whole big bug approach, and shirked the small guys, but that's their own fault.

d

ps. What the heck WERE they thinking with the pyrovore?!

big squig
20-01-2010, 00:21
There's so much wrong with the mid book. Why did haunts lose fleet?

Zanzibarthefirst
20-01-2010, 00:27
All this has been covered in the thread I started last week. The Nids codex is fully of :wtf: moments

Rydmend
20-01-2010, 00:40
I don't understand why a carnifex and trygon are so similar in price. For *40* more points than a carnifex you get:

+2 WS
+2 W
+3 I
+2 attacks
+1 Ld
fleet
S5 assault 6 weapon
deepstrike

You lose a few things, -3 S, the ability to be taken in broods, the ability to take 5 point frags, the ability to take a shooty loadout.....that's it.

I think the carnifex could be as expensive as it is now if it came standard with frags, bio plasma and I 2.

Lord Malorne
20-01-2010, 00:41
As a non Nid player...

Why the hell is the carnifex so expensive, I cannot see a reason, is it because you can now take more? That can't be it as they cost too much and are not good enough for said cost, odd.

starlight
20-01-2010, 00:43
It's to make the other choices sell more...sad, but true. :(

Laughingmonk
20-01-2010, 00:43
The deathspitter thing is the most infuriating.

Carnifexes have their uses. So do even stranglewebs. I can ignore small oversights like spinefists, spike rifles, and shreddershard beatles. The pyrovore certainly is laughable, but it is also characterful; I can at least have fun finding all the ridiculous uses for these guys, and cackle deviously when someone actually actually succumbs to them.

But the deathspitter is pure lazyness. They couldn't be bothered with putting a MC profile in for the deathspitter. Nor could they have made poison a viable upgrade. Literally, poison on a carnifex is paying points for a downgrade most of the time.

The book really seems to be filled with missed opportunities and lazy design choices.

Lord Malorne
20-01-2010, 00:44
It's to make the other choices sell more...sad, but true. :(

A trygon is 5 (at time of writing) than a carni, you would buy it anyway for that paltry sum! All they are doing is giving more reasons for teh sucking :(.

CapnBob
20-01-2010, 00:49
Why does Old One Eye have Living Battering Ram?? Why??? It does nothing for him at all because it doesn't override crushing claws!

Why do tyranids fall back to the table edge now instead of towards synapse? I know just about everything on the table and its mom have synapse now, but still. Kinda of un-fluffy there.

Why does the Mawloc have the big swallowy mouth without a swallow whole rule? Wasted opportunity, if you ask me. It would be hardly overpowered compared to "my psychic power makes the whole WORLD swallow everything in a 24" line!" Similarly, thanks for mentioning the Red Terror without having rules for him.

Edit:

Nor could they have made poison a viable upgrade. Literally, poison on a carnifex is paying points for a downgrade most of the time.

To be fair, what you're paying for is re-rolling 1's to wound usually with a fex. The only downgrade is the points cost.

Vepr
20-01-2010, 00:50
Compare any of the bigger nids to Straken for his cost. There were discussions over on BoLS about how much better the SW FAQ made Straken now and how Straken is wrecking the Swarmlord something that costs 2/3rds more. Honestly the Nid dex looks more like Cruddace's first attempt instead of his second. There are some painfully obvious flaws for anyone that has ever played the game.

ehlijen
20-01-2010, 00:54
The Trygon's inability to instantly kill T4 models makes the enemy treat it very differently in how he counters its threat, even if it does have 6 attacks. The carnifex, with his ability to compact Kantor or Vulkan into a tiny cube in one hit, therefore has a clear place in the list.

Vepr
20-01-2010, 00:54
A Carnifex stepped on Cruddace's dog apparently. :p Honestly though it appears to be a codex written by someone that does not give a damn about nids.

Lord Malorne
20-01-2010, 00:55
Compare any of the bigger nids to Straken for his cost. There were discussions over on BoLS about how much better the SW FAQ made Straken now and how Straken is wrecking the Swarmlord something that costs 2/3rds more. Honestly the Nid dex looks more like Cruddace's first attempt instead of his second. There are some painfully obvious flaws for anyone that has ever played the game.

:confused: How does the SW FAQ have an impact on Straken?

Hellebore
20-01-2010, 00:57
It says that you get the furious charge rule if you use counter attack. Straken grants both of these.

hellebore

Laughingmonk
20-01-2010, 00:58
A trygon is 5 (at time of writing) than a carni, you would buy it anyway for that paltry sum! All they are doing is giving more reasons for teh sucking :(.

Plus, there's the Pyrovore example. They charge 30$ USD for the thing, and make it suck horribly. In my expanding fleet the Pyrovore is at the very very very bottom of my list. I will eventually get them, yes, but not before I get, well, everything else.

I do not have any serious gripes with the carnifex. Yes, they are slightly overcosted, but a Pair of screamer killers (minus plasma) will regularly find a way into some of my lists. Especially where tervigons are present.

Vepr
20-01-2010, 00:59
The Trygon's inability to instantly kill T4 models makes the enemy treat it very differently in how he counters its threat, even if it does have 6 attacks. The carnifex, with his ability to compact Kantor or Vulkan into a tiny cube in one hit, therefore has a clear place in the list.

:eyebrows: Your chances of getting a fex near a special character, even in a drop pod is slim to none. Unless of course you run into other players that regularly leave their special characters out by themselves with no support.

In other words horse squeeze.

Putty
20-01-2010, 00:59
The Trygon's inability to instantly kill T4 models makes the enemy treat it very differently in how he counters its threat, even if it does have 6 attacks. The carnifex, with his ability to compact Kantor or Vulkan into a tiny cube in one hit, therefore has a clear place in the list.

Uh... it doesn't need S8... its a Monstrous Creature anyway.

Lord Malorne
20-01-2010, 01:00
It says that you get the furious charge rule if you use counter attack. Straken grants both of these.

hellebore

Strange, I find it hard to swallow that someone would bring that up in a game, Black Templars have had that option for years, curse the freaking FAQ writers.

OT: What do people think of the Venomthrope?

Vepr
20-01-2010, 01:00
It says that you get the furious charge rule if you use counter attack. Straken grants both of these.

hellebore

In a 12" radius aura.... :wtf:

catbarf
20-01-2010, 01:01
To be fair, what you're paying for is re-rolling 1's to wound usually with a fex. The only downgrade is the points cost.

Nope, it becomes 4+ with reroll versus 2+ normally. 75% versus 83%. Downgrade.

Putty
20-01-2010, 01:10
OT: What do people think of the Venomthrope?

A pragmatic unit. it will give units it is with, with bonuses meant for swarming the enemy with a horde... and it has WS 3 and 2, 2+ poison attacks. :wtf: you would think with all those tentacles... it would have 5 - 6 attacks...

But from my view as a nid player, its a waste of points and too much work to use efficiently.

Also, with the bloated Elite section, there are only three choices I would automatically take and the other choices are only there if you want to play some ultra-fluffy army.

And oh... the FOC is 3 Elite slots anyways... so observers say Tyranids have more choices but then again... 1/3 of the choices are no brainers and the other 2/3 are there for variety.

CapnBob
20-01-2010, 01:12
Nope, it becomes 4+ with reroll versus 2+ normally. 75% versus 83%. Downgrade.

Oh wow, I read that wrong the first time. Yeahhh... that's getting house-ruled.

starlight
20-01-2010, 01:15
There's so much wrong with the mid book. Why did haunts lose fleet?

By this it sounds like you mean you think Hormagaunts have lost Fleet...? :eyebrows:

If that's the case, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from...? :confused:

catbarf
20-01-2010, 01:15
Carnifex Poison is another stunning example. How could this sort of thing just slip through any competent playtesting?

I really want an excuse, a reason for why this is. I don't want to think Cruddace and GW are incompetent. But that's the way things seem to be leaning.

Dead Man Walking
20-01-2010, 01:16
What makes me mad is that models have parts on thier sprues to get grenades and they dont let us take them!!!! :mad:

Why cant Carnifex get whips??!!! They are in the box!!! :mad:

Why cant they have Toxic Miasma?!? They have the smoke stacks that are required!! Why cant they have acid blood, they usually get shot down anyways!!!


Genestealers attacking on init 1 when they charge into terrain when they have a flesh hooks head in the box!? :wtf:

Tyranid book = Fail
Me = :mad::mad::mad:

catbarf
20-01-2010, 01:18
Why cant Carnifex get whips??!!! They are in the box!!! :mad:

No they aren't. The Carnifex does not come with lash whips.


Why cant they have Toxic Miasma?!? They have the smoke stacks that are required!!

A lot of Tyranids have the dorsal vents, they're not necessarily for Toxic Miasma.

pet405
20-01-2010, 01:18
is buying the old ones off of my friend worth it now?

starlight
20-01-2010, 01:18
...and that *smilie* is supposed to the the *embarrassed* smilie...although *some* people have smutty minds... :eek:



:shifty:

catbarf
20-01-2010, 01:20
is buying the old ones off of my friend worth it now?

If you like the army, buy them. I'm not saying the new codex is utter garbage, there are just some real head-scratchers mixed in.

You know, I really think the Strangleweb should ignore armor. After all, how is a big suit of armor going to prevent you from being bound in a web? It would also make the weapon potentially useful.

Vaktathi
20-01-2010, 01:21
Uh... it doesn't need S8... its a Monstrous Creature anyway.

It needs the S8 to ID a T4 character, just being an MC won't do it, only ignore armor saves.

big squig
20-01-2010, 01:26
By this it sounds like you mean you think Hormagaunts have lost Fleet...? :eyebrows:

If that's the case, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from...? :confused: I meant termagaunts. Sorry

Putty
20-01-2010, 01:27
It needs the S8 to ID a T4 character, just being an MC won't do it, only ignore armor saves.

Exactly my point.

90% of T4 things have only 1 wound. Those which have more than 1 wound usually have an invul save of some sort or eternal warrior.

In many cases, at least in 40k, you kill multi-wound T4 things with a bucketload of shooting not with assault unless what you are throwing into the mix are all power-weapons / rending and will dish out about 30 attacks.

big squig
20-01-2010, 01:29
Nope, it becomes 4+ with reroll versus 2+ normally. 75% versus 83%. Downgrade. I thought poison was 4+ when STr was lower than toughness and simply a normal re-roll wound if higher

Vaktathi
20-01-2010, 01:31
I thought poison was 4+ when STr was lower than toughness and simply a normal re-roll wound if higher

I did to, but it's a reroll if S is *equal* or higher than T


Exactly my point.

90% of T4 things have only 1 wound. Those which have more than 1 wound usually have an invul save of some sort or eternal warrior.

In many cases, at least in 40k, you kill multi-wound T4 things with a bucketload of shooting not with assault unless what you are throwing into the mix are all power-weapons / rending and will dish out about 30 attacks. Ah true.

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 01:33
The Horror 25 points.

25 points on an allready overpriced Hive Tyrant so that the enemy has to check wether he can charge him, considering the best and most dangerous close combat units are LD9+ or even fearless.
Where do these 25 points come from on something that does not even have to be modelled? We got it for free last time on a 75 basic model.

Oh and why do Toxin Sacs cost anything on the Carnifex and the Tyrant, although making them worse?

How are the crushing claw costs justified?

And someone should clarify the deep strike, IB issue. Oh my god Every day more and more WTF issues see the light of the day..

catbarf
20-01-2010, 01:42
I thought poison was 4+ when STr was lower than toughness and simply a normal re-roll wound if higher


I did to, but it's a reroll if S is *equal* or higher than T

Nope. It follows the Poisoned Weapons rule in the main rulebook, page 42. It always wounds on 4+, but if your S is equal or higher, you can reroll.

e2055261
20-01-2010, 01:47
I gotta see this codex. It sounds a real scream.

So what kind of lists are we likely to see ?

Putty
20-01-2010, 01:48
The Horror 25 points.
25 points on an allready overpriced Hive Tyrant so that the enemy has to check wether he can charge him, considering the best and most dangerous close combat units are LD9+ or even fearless.
Where do these 25 points come from on something that does not even have to be modelled? We got it for free last time on a 75 basic model.


Another hint of the Codex possibly being over-engineered!

In the past, you combined this with Psychic Scream so any thing that attempts to assault the Tyrant would be around 5 - 6 Ld. (this includes Zoanthrope bubble).

Now the only way to use this power effectively is to take multiple Broodlords with Aura of Despair, which is extremely expensive and difficult to work with on the table. Hence a useless one trick pony combo.

Aura of Despair should be an option for most Synapse creatures in the first place but I would reckon that they restricted it to the Broodlord for balance issues.

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 02:04
I gotta see this codex. It sounds a real scream.

Read it carefully. I needed two weeks to detect all the flaws and I am discovering new ones every day.
At first sight it looks really good, but don't let yourself fool by the stats.
A 3d6 Gaunts Spawning T6 W6 Creature that costs only 160 points still only kills one guy per close combat phase, although it has potential (if paid points for) to boost your army really good. So read the Codex carefully.

I expect most builds to have multiple Trygons, lots of Zoanthropes and Hyve Guards or Tervigon Spams.
Some Warriors for Synapse with Alphas. That's about it I think.

We won't see Harpies, Massed Warriors, Swarmlord, Carnifices, Lictors, Ripper Swarms, Venomthropes, Tyrannofexes, Winged Tyrants and of course Pyrovores on the board.
Thats my personal opinion and my personal prediction, give it some time and look wether I will be right or not.

The pestilent 1
20-01-2010, 02:09
So you have options.
If all termagants had borers youd be here whining that you have no options.

Vepr
20-01-2010, 02:10
As I have said before I don't know that I would call this a bad codex but I would not say it is anywhere near good either. The codex just has a feeling of being rushed. I am hard pressed to believe they spent a long time on this dex with play testing and careful consideration of the point costs and general rules and some of the weapons.


So you have options.
If all termagants had borers youd be here whining that you have no options.

I would not complain especially if it was just spines and borers like before. It just seems insulting that they basically added three options that cost more but actually add nothing or actually are less effective than the original weapons with the spines, strangle, and spike rifles.

Vet.Sister
20-01-2010, 02:17
My signature is an excerpt from a post about the new fifth edition rule set.....
So far it applies to all the codex releases by GW for 5th Ed. :rolleyes:

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 02:30
The moment they have written the rules for all these weapons they could have made a note in the Codex where the change from Fleshborers to Spinefists doesn't cost anything.. Yet there is a note "points: +1"
It's a simple question.. why?
Why is there "+1" and not "gratis" ? There had to be a reason. The moment someone wrote this he thought of something. All of us want to know what that was...

Chem-Dog
20-01-2010, 02:31
-Spike Rifles. For 1pt, you go from a 12" single-shot bolter to an 18" single-shot lasgun. What? If it were free, I could potentially see a bit of usefulness, but for an increase in cost? No way.

I can see a few situations where those extra 6" make all the difference, with a full sized squad it can be more than enough, the IG's "First Rank" order showed me what a coupla dozen S3 shots can do.



-Spinefists on Termagants. They're no better than Fleshborers against Marines, and even against Guard aren't good enough to recoup their cost. They're a reasonably good choice on Warriors, but not for Gaunts.

But you can't get rid of them, I know many people have large numbers of spinegaunts.


-Pyrovores. Just why.

I think the "Vehicle Explodes" effect caused one of the biggest WTF's in our gaming club...


-Deathspitters vs Devourers on Monstrous Creatures. They're the same price. The Deathspitters have the advantage of AP5 instead of AP-. The Devourers have a point higher S, twice as many shots, and force morale tests at -1Ld. Which would you take?

In world full of Sv+3 models, AP5 is just as useless as AP-. I'd go for the extra pip of Strength. BUT if you're playing Orks (for example) forcing morale tests at any negative modifier is pointless till you got them down to less than 11 models, avoiding the chance that they'll roll a hail of sixes for saves is sometimes a valuable little piece of insurance?


I can understand that the designers can't foresee every last overpowered combination or underpowered unit, but this is a bit ridiculous. These people are ostensibly professionals, and yet from what I'ver seen, none among them have even a rudimentary grasp of probability. I'd assume that to write and release a rulebook, GW would have qualified gamers and developers analyzing and testing the rules- but this seems not to be the case.

Is there something I'm missing here?

I honestly CAN'T understand the inability to foresee these overpowered combos, each unit has a fixed range of upgrades and options listed in it's Army list entry, it doesn't take long to spool through them all, it takes the people who visit here a very short amount of time to pick out the nasties ;)

Vaktathi
20-01-2010, 02:39
In world full of Sv+3 models, AP5 is just as useless as AP-. I'd go for the extra pip of Strength. BUT if you're playing Orks (for example) forcing morale tests at any negative modifier is pointless till you got them down to less than 11 models, avoiding the chance that they'll roll a hail of sixes for saves is sometimes a valuable little piece of insurance?

Either way, 3 S5 AP5 shots are nowhere near on par with 6 S6 shots that cause an Ld test at -1. There's no reason those should have been costed identically.

Voss
20-01-2010, 02:53
Is there something I'm missing here?

I don't think so. I'm fairly happy with the codex overall, but those particular things don't make much sense.

-1 str for twinlinked or +6" makes sense, but not if you have to pay extra for it.

Stranglewebs affect too few things for the special rule to matter. Slight benefit vs orks, penalty vs kroot, and.... thats all. A pinning template weapon is rather neat, however.


As for the deathspitters vs. brainworm devourers, I have no idea. They really should be maybe 5 points on MCs. Those two weapons are in no way roughly equivalent.


Pyrovores would have made sense if they had the acid spray weapon the tyrranofexes come with by default. A ranged, S6 template attack? Yeah. I'll take that. Alas, its a gimp with a heavy flamer.

Squallish
20-01-2010, 03:21
My wtfs:
- Venomthropes.. about 15pts too much for only 2W and a 3+ Save.. so I kill 2 marines and you have no cover? Ok!
- Tyrant, Carnifex, etc.. Toxin Sacs.. let me take an upgrade that only helps against T8 for carnifex or T5+ for Tyrants (good, but still nerfs you against a normal tyrant)
- Tyrant Ind Horror.. 25pts are you joking? This should be free for the Tyrant's cost
- Tyrant Wings, Armored Shell.. look at the Daemon Prince.. stats are a little lowers and Wings are sickeningly cheap.. 40pts I could see.. and Shell... also disgusting
- Crushing Claws adds an average 1.5 attacks.. on most models with good attacks (Sergs) an extra attack costs 10pts.. this is 250% more, and has a penalty.. wtf?
- Doom of Malantai... yay I have a billion wounds, but 3 Missile hits destroy me
- Pyrovores are actually decent (just not next to Zoans and HG).. drop 3 in a pod and you can dig out any unit in cover (which is good since ALMOST NOTHING has frags), then if they assault you or shoot you to get rid of you, they die some more.. but we all had this though that they would be like a Basilisk; 40pts would also have been more appropriate..
- Ymgarls... +9pts for +1Sv and +1 S, T or A ; oh and a funky deployment that may be screwed by a smart/lucky enemy.. and no Broodlord option.. no thanks
- Genestealers.. no Sv option, and expensive AG/TS for no reason
- Terms.. people have covered this, but their weapon upgrades are stupid
- Rippers... why waste valuable Troop slots on a non-scoring unit that can't do anything useful anymore? 4pts for AG/TS? HUHHH?? Spinefists for more than that???
- The entire Fast attack section other than Shrikes and Gargoyles is garbage
- Carnifex.. Deathspitters? TS?
- Trygon.. Regen cheaper than a Tervigon? Why?
- Mawloc.. can't use his only special rule without serious luck due to wording
- Tyrannofex.. they're the new Chaos Spawn.. ridiculously overpriced.. lost the S of the Carnifex for 2 Templates that it will never use because it's too slow and can't be podded.. compare to the Tervigon.. +90pts for... 2 Heavy Flamers, +1S, +1Sv?

druchii
20-01-2010, 03:35
My wtfs:
- Venomthropes.. about 15pts too much for only 2W and a 3+ Save.. so I kill 2 marines and you have no cover? Ok!
- Tyrant, Carnifex, etc.. Toxin Sacs.. let me take an upgrade that only helps against T8 for carnifex or T5+ for Tyrants (good, but still nerfs you against a normal tyrant)
- Tyrant Ind Horror.. 25pts are you joking? This should be free for the Tyrant's cost
- Tyrant Wings, Armored Shell.. look at the Daemon Prince.. stats are a little lowers and Wings are sickeningly cheap.. 40pts I could see.. and Shell... also disgusting
- Crushing Claws adds an average 1.5 attacks.. on most models with good attacks (Sergs) an extra attack costs 10pts.. this is 250% more, and has a penalty.. wtf?
- Doom of Malantai... yay I have a billion wounds, but 3 Missile hits destroy me
- Pyrovores are actually decent (just not next to Zoans and HG).. drop 3 in a pod and you can dig out any unit in cover (which is good since ALMOST NOTHING has frags), then if they assault you or shoot you to get rid of you, they die some more.. but we all had this though that they would be like a Basilisk; 40pts would also have been more appropriate..
- Ymgarls... +9pts for +1Sv and +1 S, T or A ; oh and a funky deployment that may be screwed by a smart/lucky enemy.. and no Broodlord option.. no thanks
- Genestealers.. no Sv option, and expensive AG/TS for no reason
- Terms.. people have covered this, but their weapon upgrades are stupid
- Rippers... why waste valuable Troop slots on a non-scoring unit that can't do anything useful anymore? 4pts for AG/TS? HUHHH?? Spinefists for more than that???
- The entire Fast attack section other than Shrikes and Gargoyles is garbage
- Carnifex.. Deathspitters? TS?
- Trygon.. Regen cheaper than a Tervigon? Why?
- Mawloc.. can't use his only special rule without serious luck due to wording
- Tyrannofex.. they're the new Chaos Spawn.. ridiculously overpriced.. lost the S of the Carnifex for 2 Templates that it will never use because it's too slow and can't be podded.. compare to the Tervigon.. +90pts for... 2 Heavy Flamers, +1S, +1Sv?

A few quick replies:
-Actually Hive Tyrant Wings are priced appropriately (look at the demon prince entry in the Demons codex-60pts. on a WORSE model. all MCs are getting a price hike especially for wings).

-Armored Shell-uhm-makes sense? Demons pay 30pts for a space marine equivalent.

-Ymgarl Genestealers are AWESOME. Essentially they have a chance to wake up in terrain, in your opponent's deployment zone, and charge something the turn they appear. That's *******' nasty. Giving them more survivability would be goofy.

-'Stealers got BETTER. How are people whining about this?

-Rippers have always sucked, what's new?

-Raveners are terrifying, I don't know what you're talking about.

-Trygons should have cheaper regen. Tervigons are TROOPs and so are scoring...You can see how a t6 6w model that scores hiding behind a screen of pooped out FNP gaunts could..be...awesome, right?

-Tyrannofexes are amazing. t6 with 6w that will fire a s10 shot at you every turn that will typically get a 4+ all the time. Have fun dealing with your Wave Serpents getting penned on 3+ (or your rhinos on a 2+...) not to mention he fact he's a sick counter-assault unit for your home-camping objective grabbers.

I get some of the wtf moments, but a lot of this is people freaking out.

d

PS. Venomthropes DO NOT have a 3++ which boggles my mind. Give him warp field and he immedietly becomes a great option.

catbarf
20-01-2010, 03:39
I can see a few situations where those extra 6" make all the difference, with a full sized squad it can be more than enough, the IG's "First Rank" order showed me what a coupla dozen S3 shots can do.

I agree, but remember that with one shot, they're putting out a third of the firepower of those First Rank'd Guardsmen. Compared to the Fleshborer, the Spike Rifle is pretty crap.


In world full of Sv+3 models, AP5 is just as useless as AP-. I'd go for the extra pip of Strength. BUT if you're playing Orks (for example) forcing morale tests at any negative modifier is pointless till you got them down to less than 11 models, avoiding the chance that they'll roll a hail of sixes for saves is sometimes a valuable little piece of insurance?

Remember, six shots with the Devourers, three with the Deathspitters.

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 03:42
I'm guessing design choice for most of these. Spike rifles, Stranglewebs, and Spine fists are things that they didn't really want in the army, but included them so veterans would maybe moan a little less about invalidated models. Hence the slightly less than optimal pricing that allows you to field your old models with little harm to your competitiveness, but discourages people from building more of these variants.

About the Deathspitter/Devourer thing, I'm guessing they had a Heavy Deathspitter variant at one point, then took it out and forgot to reduce the price. Typical copy/paste error that happens when you go back and forth between different playtest versions.
Those sound plausible explanations.

---

Add Rippers to the list. Spinefist Rippers in particular simply make no sense when compared to Termagants. It may be that they just don't want people to play with Rippers. I'm not sure why.

---

Perhaps this codex was simply rushed through playtesting. This could have been due to big changes party-way through the development process.

Some of this could also be due to post-playtesting edits, which I'm told happen once in a while when one of the higher-ups decides to veto a mechanic. The Spore Mine rules could have happened that way if someone decided to rewrite the rules at the last minute.

Hellebore
20-01-2010, 03:49
It's possible that GW have simply decreased the time allowed for the designers to write the codicies so they can pump them out faster to sell quicker.

Hellebore

Vepr
20-01-2010, 03:53
It's possible that GW have simply decreased the time allowed for the designers to write the codicies so they can pump them out faster to sell quicker.

Hellebore

Yeah it does have that rushed feeling but you would think even if they only had a month to playtest it they would have picked up a lot of this stuff.

Vaktathi
20-01-2010, 03:56
Hell you don't even need playtesting for half these things, simple observation would tell you something is mucked like the Deathspitter vs MC Devourer thing.

Vepr
20-01-2010, 04:00
Hell you don't even need playtesting for half these things, simple observation would tell you something is mucked like the Deathspitter vs MC Devourer thing.

True. A lot of these things are what you would expect to see in a initial beta version where you are close to done but are still messing around with points etc. I wonder more every day about the printing issue. Was this behind schedule maybe and they had to rush? :shifty: :p

cotillion989
20-01-2010, 04:09
All this ripper hate. I love my tunneling rippers. I deep strike them and then landing pod the zoanthropes behind them. That way i have an assault shield that I can shoot over without giving cover saves!

Vepr
20-01-2010, 04:11
All this ripper hate. I love my tunneling rippers. I deep strike them and then landing pod the zoanthropes behind them. That way i have an assault shield that I can shoot over without giving cover saves!

Not a bad plan but reserve rolls could cause you some heartburn.

Triple Threat
20-01-2010, 04:38
One of the main problems I have is that Genestealers (and especially Ymgarl Genestealers) cannot get frag grenades. These are our major assaulters and they always have to go last to someone in terrain. Since Ymgarl always enter from terrain, if they get a charge off, they will usually be going last. What other army has a great assault unit that cannot get frag grenades?


Also, what is so bad with the Harpy? It seems like a relatively cheap way to get heavy venom cannons. I guess its probably because they have -1 on the damage chart. I still don't get that.

OthrBrthrDarrel
20-01-2010, 04:43
They were probably thinking they needed more $$.

Meriwether
20-01-2010, 04:48
Am I the only person who sees a codex with a lot of great options, several compelling builds, and a few surprises for those who do a little thinking?

It seems to me that the tyranid book is now almost on par with the Eldar book for units that need to act in concert to do well -- and yet can to tremendously well if they do so.

SideshowLucifer
20-01-2010, 04:52
I see the same thing Meriwether. I have played agaisnt the new Nids dex and had a blast. A lot of neat surprises but not nearly as forgiving as nidzilla was.

druchii
20-01-2010, 05:16
Am I the only person who sees a codex with a lot of great options, several compelling builds, and a few surprises for those who do a little thinking?

It seems to me that the tyranid book is now almost on par with the Eldar book for units that need to act in concert to do well -- and yet can to tremendously well if they do so.

Don't be foolish.

'Nid players all over the world want to rely on the same four or five units to win them games.

Apparently adaptation is only representative of 'Nids in their codex, not their actual players.

d

beardy
20-01-2010, 05:17
Mycetic Spores are not scoring units at least

Netfreakk
20-01-2010, 05:19
Depending on whether or not I'm building a list for a specific army, I find that my all comers list is containing at least 2 tervigons and 2 trygons, but I do think it's not as bad as it seems. The only complain I have is the lack of assault grenades for my CC oriented army. However, I come from a balanced non-nidzilla list and so the impact on carnifexes didn't really effect me as I suspect on others. Though I haven't been able to justify using them as I keep leaning on putting more trygons into my list rather than carnifexes due to fleet and a no-risk DS.


edit*

Anyone else notice that Mycetic Spores are scoring units if bought for Troops?

That's cool.

Squallish
20-01-2010, 05:22
I agree, I see a very synergistic codex that for the most part was well thought out.

I was just listing my wtf moments when I read the Codex.


A few quick replies:
-Actually Hive Tyrant Wings are priced appropriately (look at the demon prince entry in the Demons codex-60pts. on a WORSE model. all MCs are getting a price hike especially for wings).

-Armored Shell-uhm-makes sense? Demons pay 30pts for a space marine equivalent.

-Ymgarl Genestealers are AWESOME. Essentially they have a chance to wake up in terrain, in your opponent's deployment zone, and charge something the turn they appear. That's *******' nasty. Giving them more survivability would be goofy.

-'Stealers got BETTER. How are people whining about this?

-Rippers have always sucked, what's new?

-Raveners are terrifying, I don't know what you're talking about.

-Trygons should have cheaper regen. Tervigons are TROOPs and so are scoring...You can see how a t6 6w model that scores hiding behind a screen of pooped out FNP gaunts could..be...awesome, right?

-Tyrannofexes are amazing. t6 with 6w that will fire a s10 shot at you every turn that will typically get a 4+ all the time. Have fun dealing with your Wave Serpents getting penned on 3+ (or your rhinos on a 2+...) not to mention he fact he's a sick counter-assault unit for your home-camping objective grabbers.

I get some of the wtf moments, but a lot of this is people freaking out.

d

PS. Venomthropes DO NOT have a 3++ which boggles my mind. Give him warp field and he immedietly becomes a great option.

- Well the Daemon Wings are too expensive too.
- Shell and Wings are just too expensive taken with anything else.. would you pay 270pts for a model with that statline? I would not.. and will most likely only take Wings or HC
- I know Ymgarls are awesome.. they just pay a little too much for that awesome.. that was my wtf when compared to regular Genes +9pts for essentially +2 stats and a funky deployment that *will not* get used effectively as often as you think once people know how to deploy against them
- Stealers got better for their base cost, but will still die in droves to bolter fire.. this is why people want Carapace back.. because they needed it or they died.. you now need at least a 200pt screen of Gaunts (thus negating Infiltrate) or alot of Genes to actually make combat against Mech anything with firepoints or rapid fire (70% of my meta)
- forgot Raveners, sorry :p
- good point on the regen
- Tyrannos are garbage.. 1 S10 shot hitting per turn on average for 265pts? Yeah.. thanks.. I'd rather take it naked and hope I get to use the flamers or better yet.. not take it all and take Trygons who can actually get to their target.. (oh and Wave Serpents would be pen'ed on 5+, 4 for a glance.. as they reduce that S10 to 8)


Anyone else notice that Mycetic Spores are scoring units if bought for Troops?
No they aren't. Read their entry where they're bought. "Always treated as a ... non-scoring unit."

Oktober
20-01-2010, 05:30
I am afraid you're right. There will be a use of a couple models that will find their way onto the table...it didn't have to be like that.

They could have kept carnifexes more playable...therefore selling more models in the process.

Someone said there is nothing wrong with the pyrovore...really...seriously? It's useless...better armor, more attacks and fine maybe but how it is now I really doubt 90% of people will ever feild them.

Reading the codex the army is supposed to be highly adaptable...it was. It could make its armor stronger, maybe better shots or better at hand to hand combat...that's gone.

Fleet...this fast attacking army, gone...hardly anything has fleet.

The army has no direction...3rd to 4th...it had direction...4th to 5th was a smack in the face.

0115 91 40000 is there number...call often to complain! I am...I hope Robin gets fired for not knowing the product or not doing any research to what people want. It's truely BS...I could write better rules.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 05:41
The codex didn't get more synergistic, it got stayed the same but now you just need completely different models.

We still needed MCs and gaunts working together in the last codex.
We still used gaunts to screen and block for more vulnerable units.
We needed synapse to prevent our smaller units from running to the nearest synapse.
We needed venom cannon armed large beasts to stun vehicles so other MCs or rending creatures could chase down and destroy tanks,

Whats changed?
Zoanthropes can blast tanks all on their own easily.
We can use tyrannofex as a one man tank killer from range.
We still use gaunts to screen, at least we would if nearly all the things we would screen didn't infiltrate or were just monstrous creatures.
Lack of synapse causes you to either charge (which we were already doing) or lurk and shoot including being scoring.

If anything the new list is *less* synergistic outside of two models, one of which is only synergistic in name but not in practice. The venomthrope and the Tervigon. The venomthrope is easy to kill and better replaced with more gaunts unless he is shielding an absolute ton and manages to remain completely out of LOS while doing so. The tervigon comes with catalyst which is useful.

We used to need to shield our genestealers or pay out the ass to outflanking them. Now they infiltrate and are cheaper.
We used to need to combine heavy assault units with venom cannons and other stunning weapons, now we just blow up tanks with them on their own.
We used to need to keep fast moving synapse like flying warriors or a flyrant to keep pace with hormagaunts or have them flee back to us, now they just charge on their own.
We used to have to balance higher strength weapons with cheaper weapons and more bodies.
We used to have a single close combat MC who could reliably engage troops quickly. Now we have three with a maximum of 4.

Combine this with the number of completely retarded choices and the end result in the tyranid codex.

The dex doesn't play like tyranids, it plays like a retarded eldar codex which tyranids are the farthest thing from.

Its not swamp them with gaunts and eat them with big nasties when they're tied down. Its deep strike your big nasty trygons and eat them and leave the gaunts at home.
Its not choose combine a tank stopper and a tank killer, its drop a pod with tyranid equivalent fire dragons and blow up the tank on their own.
Its not shield your genestealers behind gaunts so they can make it intact, its outflank your genestealers so you're enemy can't respond and fight back (just like veil of tears)
Its not pile in your cheap gaunts to clog enemy firing lines its hide them way in the back because they can't shield any of the large creatures and anything small gets their faster than can shield it already. Its leave them on objectives and hide their like eldar guardians.

And most of all its "Buy new models, almost all your old ones suck!"

blackjack
20-01-2010, 06:04
Bottom line. I can not make a compelling list with this Dex. My models will probably sit on a shelf for the next several years...

Thanks for the lousy job GW...

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 06:06
Am I the only person who sees a codex with a lot of great options, several compelling builds, and a few surprises for those who do a little thinking?
You're not the only one to see that, but I don't.

The previous codex had a lot more options in the menus, and you'd be nuts to tell me that they cut the chaff and left the wheat. Roughly the same proportion of options will be ignored, and roughly the same proportion will be optimal or near-optimal. With fewer options, that just leaves you with fewer options that hit the table for any given unit. In my opinion, this counteracts the new units and oft-ignored special characters, making the options roughly a wash.

This codex will have one optimal army list strategy and a number of "stunt" themes, which is hardly novel, even for Tyranids. You will only ever have one "best" build for any given army, and that is what you will see most often. It's only a matter of weeks or months before this codex is "solved" for this edition.

I've been surprised by a great many things in this codex, but few if any have been happy surprises. You must be thinking of some tactic not immediately apparent. Don't spoil the surprise for me. ;) I'd like to find the good news for myself.

Ozeor
20-01-2010, 06:30
I honestly think GW dropped the ball on this codex, There is some really big retarted thing's in this codex. I mean the pyrovore is the cherry for me, what the hell role is that thing supposed to have? The paperweight role? No way I'm spending money on this garbage.

I am not looking for some overpowered codex, I want something that I can field nidzilla or swarm or shooty or assaulty. Like we had before, but now it's garbage. The venomthrope is useless, the points have gone so far up that you can not get target saturation anymore.

Someone said whats wrong with a harpy, well its a T5 Mc, meaning the huge ammount of points it costs, can be negated by 1 shot from a Str10 weapon.

Guess it's back to my guard and leave my nids I been collecting for years on my shelf.
Sad day for the hive mind.

I emailed GW and told them in a nice email what I think was wrong, I sugguest you all do the same and hopefully they get the picture.

Tzeen
20-01-2010, 06:32
I've got a couple of problems.

The Tervigon sounds good on paper but when you look at the actual spawning rules it becomes very meh. It stops spawning when a double (or I guess a treble) is rolled. Probability of not rolling a double is 1 x 5/6 x 2/3 or 10/18 = 55% so on average you'll use it once and get 10.5 termas. Not sure if the remaining stat line is worth 100 pts.

Venomthrope is not much use with current cover save rules. Take for example a brood of 3 winged warriors and 15 gargoyles, place a ring of gargoyles around the warrior, with a majority at the back. Cover save for both units is 4+ as they claim cover from each, cheesy as it can be applied to any unit. Snake gaunts into each...

I'm kinda worried about marines, because unless I got the rules wrong I'm going to be losing half my psychic powers and shooting to librarians as it's all short ranged so the librarian will be winning on half the psychic hood rolls.

Pyrovores seem kinda of useful against most armies with 4+ or less armour saves, put them in a mycetic spore, drop it as close as possible to your enemy, 1/3 there are on target, 1/3 they deviate towards unit so effectively stays on target and 1/3 deviates away but with disembarking rules you still got good template shoot at deviation at less than 7" deviation.

Ok warriors can take boneswords for 10pts or rending claws for 5pts, why would you ever take claws on warriors again? Against 4+ armour or better you take boneswords, against 5+ armour you take scything talons.

Close combat 'fex - crushing claw gives you an extra 1.5 attacks which against most oppenents is 0.75 hits (hitting most of roll of 4+). The base scything talons allow reroll of failed hits, so against average opponent gain you an extra hit. So crushing claw is downgrade in attacks and charging initiative.

Shooty 'fex - not much use as anti vehicle, with the deviating venom cannon, probably going to be missing every other shot, plus has crap penetration. Against infantry the twinlinked MC devourer looks interesting, 2 pairs maybe for 12 shots, of which 9 hit, causing 7.5 wounds against T4 or less troops.

Eh, just checked something about the Swarmlord, it specifically says in the rules that only ONE shooting attack per turn may be taken (pg50). Since all the powers available are shooting it completely negates it's ability to use 2 psychic powers a turn. Also makes a shooty Tyrant kinda dumb as you can't pysch and shoot the same turn.

Ozeor
20-01-2010, 06:42
Eh, just checked something about the Swarmlord, it specifically says in the rules that only ONE shooting attack per turn may be taken (pg50). Since all the powers available are shooting it completely negates it's ability to use 2 psychic powers a turn. Also makes a shooty Tyrant kinda dumb as you can't pysch and shoot the same turn.

Please tell me your joking

MajorWesJanson
20-01-2010, 06:53
Eh, just checked something about the Swarmlord, it specifically says in the rules that only ONE shooting attack per turn may be taken (pg50). Since all the powers available are shooting it completely negates it's ability to use 2 psychic powers a turn. Also makes a shooty Tyrant kinda dumb as you can't pysch and shoot the same turn.

Good catch, but you missed the rest of it.
BRB Page 50:
"However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon a turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power twice)"

BRB page 51
"Instead of firing a single weapon, monstrous creatures can fire two of their weapons once per Shooting phase. They must, of course, fire both of them at the same target."

MCs get to shoot up to two ranged weapons a turn. Thus two psychic shooting powers a turn, though at the same target and not the same power.

Tzeen
20-01-2010, 06:55
No I think I got it wrong as it's a monstrous creature, it can shoot 2 weapons a turn and it's allowed to use 1 psychic shooting power per shooting attack. Serves me right for not reading the full paragraph.

Edit: damn, beaten to my own retraction.

Ozeor
20-01-2010, 06:58
Thank god
that would of been the last straw with this codex, I would of burned down GW

Squallish
20-01-2010, 07:00
You can Psych and Shoot because you're a MC (can fire two weapons), but you can't Psych twice unless it says you can.. so yeah.. he's right about the Swarmlord. House rule ><

edit: D'oh! Triple-ninjaed!

silashand
20-01-2010, 07:45
The only WTF moments I had were:

- no grenade-style options for 'stealers. With the prevalence of terrain in 5th, that means pretty much anyone will go before them if they assault into cover.

- lictor cannot assault when he deepstrikes. I mean really, it's not like he isn't already *******' there, you just can't see him.

Otherwise I like the new 'dex. Not measurably more than the previous one except for the new models, but I do actually think it's not too bad. JMO though...

cotillion989
20-01-2010, 07:55
Not a bad plan but reserve rolls could cause you some heartburn.

That's why I said a "small" squad of rippers. In the world of reserves I never count on anything, but if it works, 1/3 the time, that's still something cheap that can save my zoans... or at the least force the other team to shoot at them and not something else, instead of just charging them.

squeekenator
20-01-2010, 08:51
Its not swamp them with gaunts and eat them with big nasties when they're tied down. Its deep strike your big nasty trygons and eat them and leave the gaunts at home.

And I suppose the enemy army is just going to sit around having a tea party the turn your Trygons arrive? 6 wounds is a lot, but deep striking a Trygon with no support is still suicide.


Its not choose combine a tank stopper and a tank killer, its drop a pod with tyranid equivalent fire dragons and blow up the tank on their own.

Which is a much more 'niddy way of dealing with a tank. Tyranids don't deal with tough targets by laying down supressive fire while some Carnifexes waddle up to them, they get a big nasty beastie to suddenly appear out of nowhere and obliterate the thing. It may not require combined arms to destroy a vehicle any more, but your Zoanthropes are certainly going to need support if they want to survive after firing those Warp Lances (which aren't actually guaranteed to instakill their target, so suicide 'thropes are a really bad idea).


Its not shield your genestealers behind gaunts so they can make it intact, its outflank your genestealers so you're enemy can't respond and fight back (just like veil of tears)

Which is so different from the old codex, in which you bought Scuttlers for everything and then outflanked them so the enemy couldn't respond and fight back. Only now you need gaunts or some other distraction to survive after the dramatic turn in which you outflank, because you don't get extended carapaces any more.


Its not pile in your cheap gaunts to clog enemy firing lines its hide them way in the back because they can't shield any of the large creatures and anything small gets their faster than can shield it already. Its leave them on objectives and hide their like eldar guardians.

What about those Warriors that everyone is complaining about? You know, the ones that cause every gun in your opponent's army to spontaneously be replaced with missile launchers? Moving cover helps a lot against the gazillion krak missiles that are going to be fired at your medium 'nids. Also, gaunts can give cover to a Tyrant that has guard.

By the way, your big 'ZOMG NIDS ARE ELDARS' theory really doesn't work. For a start, you're complaining that 'nids don't need combined arms any more, which is the one thing that Eldar can't live without. Also, Eldar don't deep strike big things, Zoanthropes are just Tyranid verison of Fire Dragons in the same way that heavy bolters are just the Space Marine version of devourers, outflank is nothing like veil of tears (and avoiding enemy fire on the way in is hardly an Eldar-only phenomenon) and camping ranged Troops choices on objectives is a tactic that every race in the game uses.


And most of all its "Buy new models, almost all your old ones suck!"

This I can agree with. The codex has some pretty obvious faults. You don't need to make up new ones.

Shipmonkey
20-01-2010, 08:58
Anyone else notice that Mycetic Spores are scoring units if bought for Troops?

Page 90 disagrees.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-01-2010, 09:23
Lots of anguish...I'm still excited to fight the new Nids but I can sympathize with you guys. Sometimes, even little things can be infuriating. When the IG codex came out and we noticed that sergeants can take all kinds of things, rare plasma pistols, powerswords, Daemon weapons (just kidding) but no humble lasgun, I was fuming and I still don't know how Arby could do that.


I can see a few situations where those extra 6" make all the difference, with a full sized squad it can be more than enough, the IG's "First Rank" order showed me what a coupla dozen S3 shots can do.


The order however is free and those shots are on top of what you could fire without an order, so getting more shots for free is of course absolutely..uhm..in order ('scuse the pun), even if it is only S3. Exchanging better S for a little increase in range at a cost is a completely different affair, especially when S3 doesn't have a chance against mechanized units.

MajorWesJanson
20-01-2010, 09:34
They could do an Ork Dex and errata in some options, like nades for a few units.

*SQUEE*
20-01-2010, 09:44
I love the new book. This is only due to the fact that I love Warriors and can now field an army of them. I do expect to lose more them normal but I would rather lose with an army I love then crush with a boring 'nid zilla list.

Models I hate not for there rules but they way they look and feel are.

Tervigons
Ravenors
Genestealers (I like the look of Feeder Tendrils however)\
Mawloc and his Brothers
Hive Guard and the ilk
Carnifi

These will never see play regardless of how they do on the table. I plan on using Lictors, Warriors (winged as well) little bugs, Gargoyoles, Prime and the occasional Tyrant. I am 50/50 on the Zoanathrope. Tanks are gonna eat me.

I see the problems with the book and think they could have done a better job but I think the Codex has more options then the last for sure, they just are not the best options for crushing your opponent.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 10:01
And I suppose the enemy army is just going to sit around having a tea party the turn your Trygons arrive? 6 wounds is a lot, but deep striking a Trygon with no support is still suicide.

Last I checked you can have three trygons for 600 points or a mixture of trygons and mawlocs for less.



Which is a much more 'niddy way of dealing with a tank. Tyranids don't deal with tough targets by laying down supressive fire while some Carnifexes waddle up to them, they get a big nasty beastie to suddenly appear out of nowhere and obliterate the thing. It may not require combined arms to destroy a vehicle any more, but your Zoanthropes are certainly going to need support if they want to survive after firing those Warp Lances (which aren't actually guaranteed to instakill their target, so suicide 'thropes are a really bad idea).
I'm sorry but having a zoanthrope shoot a tank from a spore pod is a more "niddy way" of killing it rather than a rampaging carnifex coming up, flipping it over, and tearing it open? Maybe you haven't read much nid background but whenever someone is tearing down a wall, ripping apart a tank, breaking through a gate, its always carnifex.



Which is so different from the old codex, in which you bought Scuttlers for everything and then outflanked them so the enemy couldn't respond and fight back. Only now you need gaunts or some other distraction to survive after the dramatic turn in which you outflank, because you don't get extended carapaces any more.

You don't need extended carapace because your cheaper and your outflanking on your own. You would cost 7 more points in the old codex. You don't need gaunts to distract them, gaunts aren't threatening enough to even be considered a serious target priority compared to genestealers appearing from your board edges assuming you even get a chance to shoot them.



What about those Warriors that everyone is complaining about? You know, the ones that cause every gun in your opponent's army to spontaneously be replaced with missile launchers? Moving cover helps a lot against the gazillion krak missiles that are going to be fired at your medium 'nids. Also, gaunts can give cover to a Tyrant that has guard.

What about the warriors? They're just as retarded and crappy now as they were in the last edition. You want synapse for gaunts? Its called tervigon. Sp
Those missiles are just as easily directed at all your 3+ save specialist units without gunning down crappy warriors.



By the way, your big 'ZOMG NIDS ARE ELDARS' theory really doesn't work. For a start, you're complaining that 'nids don't need combined arms any more, which is the one thing that Eldar can't live without.

Combined arms is just a fancy way of saying "have stuff that can do other stuff." It has nothing to do with synergistic support. An eldar player needs an anti-tank weapon such as a fire dragon, it doesn't need a synergy with guardians protecting said fire dragons with their bodies until they can get into range, and neither do the new nids.



Also, Eldar don't deep strike big things, Zoanthropes are just Tyranid verison of Fire Dragons in the same way that heavy bolters are just the Space Marine version of devourers,

Lets see:
Relatively easy to kill yet expensive? Check.
Very short ranged high effect anti-tank? Check.
Functions best leaving a very fast moving transport and typically dies fast after? Check!



outflank is nothing like veil of tears (and avoiding enemy fire on the way in is hardly an Eldar-only phenomenon) and camping ranged Troops choices on objectives is a tactic that every race in the game uses.

Nids aren't like every race. Tyranids are a swarm of organisms that spend all their time consuming worlds. They're a race that sends wave after wave of its lesser organisms to deplete enemy ammunition supplies. Tyranids are a race of lightning fast assaults with a mix of small and large creatures functioning in synergy to deliver the maximum possible punch. Nids don't care about the lives of their soldiers, everything is expendable in the pursuit of victory. Nids aren't a race that has its least of organisms hiding while the main assault surges forth nor are they a race that allows for anything that works well on its own. This was evident in fourth edition. It was evident in how monstrous creatures were specialized to synergize with smaller troops, where smaller troops would go forth in large masses to engage the enemy tooth and nail while the hammer blow followed. They could call upon rare specialists who could function on their own but at great cost and ultimately, they worked very well as an army that overwhelmed enemy lines with larger beasts taking on larger prey in concert to bring it down.

New nids you have larger beasts that can function just fine with three of their identical fellows to mash tanks and infantry. You have tyrants that are too expensive to from the center of the swarm and of a weapon skill comparable to a risen god (They're giant bugs!). You have claws being replaced by swords, you have tank flipping replaced by long ranged guns.

Sure, nids evolve, but I don't want to play an army that loses all its flavor in the name of evolution.



This I can agree with. The codex has some pretty obvious faults. You don't need to make up new ones.
Theres nothing new being made up here. The nid codex doesn't play like a tyranids are written. Its full of choices that require models to hang back and hide, for hive tyrants to eschew the battlefield and the swarm for lack of protection, and for the replacement of a diverse and synergistic heavy support system with a the blunt all purpose trygon.


Good catch, but you missed the rest of it.
BRB Page 50:
"However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon a turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power twice)"

BRB page 51
"Instead of firing a single weapon, monstrous creatures can fire two of their weapons once per Shooting phase. They must, of course, fire both of them at the same target."

MCs get to shoot up to two ranged weapons a turn. Thus two psychic shooting powers a turn, though at the same target and not the same power.

Nothing allows the normal tyrant the ability to use two psychic powers in one turn thus it still only has one psychic shooting attack though it could use that with say, a venom cannon.

Hoodwink
20-01-2010, 10:15
Spinefists on termagants:
10 termagants fire at a group of T4 infantry. 1 set has fleshborers, the other has spinefists.

fleshborers: 10 shots, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds.
spinefists: 10 shots, 7.5 hits, 2.475 wounds.

Bleh why 1 more point?

Against T3, it's only marginally better. Ridunkulous :(

ashc
20-01-2010, 10:41
I remember nids in 2nd ed. being a crawling tide of death and meatshields until the real nasties hit you, and the thought of playing against them was pretty terrifying.

The nids have become less and less like this over the editions.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 10:45
Spinefists on termagants:
10 termagants fire at a group of T4 infantry. 1 set has fleshborers, the other has spinefists.

fleshborers: 10 shots, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds.
spinefists: 10 shots, 7.5 hits, 2.475 wounds.

Bleh why 1 more point?

Against T3, it's only marginally better. Ridunkulous :(
Cause most people had spinegaunts of course.

As for crawling death nids, the entire reason why so many of us came to nids was the concept of this overwhelming swarm overrunning everything in their path under an avalanche of warrior beasts. Thats just not the way the new one works and the old one worked similarly, but not quite to its purest form. This new one has basically ditched that entirely replacing swrms of gaunts overwhelming enemy lines with gaunts hiding in cover taking pot shots so they can hold objectives and giant scythe armed monsters smashing into tanks with mouth cannons.

Even with subpar codex I'm able to at least let excitement fuel new projects and armies. There's just no excitement here, its not the tyranid style army I loved.

catbarf
20-01-2010, 11:22
Pyrovores seem kinda of useful against most armies with 4+ or less armour saves, put them in a mycetic spore, drop it as close as possible to your enemy, 1/3 there are on target, 1/3 they deviate towards unit so effectively stays on target and 1/3 deviates away but with disembarking rules you still got good template shoot at deviation at less than 7" deviation.

Possibly, but it's still a mediocre weapon on a platform that will not survive the return fire.


Ok warriors can take boneswords for 10pts or rending claws for 5pts, why would you ever take claws on warriors again? Against 4+ armour or better you take boneswords, against 5+ armour you take scything talons.

I've run some math, and if you take Toxin Sacs along with Rending Claws, you end up with Warriors that are both cheaper than the twin Bonesword Warriors and very close in killing power against MEQs, with the added bonus of being able to chew up light vehicles and walkers if they get close enough.

librerian_samae
20-01-2010, 11:57
I'm not so up in arms about the new codex, I actualy rather like it (bar the few strange pricing issues, ie carnifex and MC death spitters/devorers ad termagant options but I can live with them).

However I noticed one huge glaring issue that I have seen anyone else mention.

The deathleaper is as we all know supossed to be a mutant strain of lictor, HOWEVER nowhere in his actual rules, stat line or unit entry is he mentioned as such, now for his bio morphs and weapons as well as special rules it says "see page 41", this refers to the lictor page as they share the same special rules.

All well and good you may say, but, when reading the rules for, lets say pheremone trail we see the unfortunte wording of:

"If a LICTOR is on the board [...] within 6" of a LICTOR and will not scatter"
(quote new nid dex page 41, emphasis mine)

This is the same for all the shared rules, they specifiy LICTOR, not model or unit.
Now fortunately I don't play against the kindda people who take this kinda thing as being an issue but if your with a group who takes RAW seriously, well that's a very expensive single model that technicaly cant do most of what its supossed to, rather sad really.

It seems like a bit of a bonner of a editing/proof reading mess up if ever there was one.
I also hear the wording of the Mawlocs rule suffers from this kind of WTF writting as well.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-01-2010, 12:40
Combined arms is just a fancy way of saying "have stuff that can do other stuff." It has nothing to do with synergistic support. An eldar player needs an anti-tank weapon such as a fire dragon, it doesn't need a synergy with guardians protecting said fire dragons with their bodies until they can get into range, and neither do the new nids.


The Dragons need a Serpent, and they need some Dire Avengers to kill the squad screening the tank, and there better be someone around to deal with the passengers of said tank, and most units need a Farseer, who needs a transport...if that isn't synergy I don't know.


Considering I could have 4 full genestealers and a couple of points I think it is.

Hmm. Considering what a heavy flamer or inferno flamer does to four Stealers, I'd be happier to see them on the field instead of a BL.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 12:49
The Dragons need a Serpent, and they need some Dire Avengers to kill the squad screening the tank, and there better be someone around to deal with the passengers of said tank, and most units need a Farseer, who needs a transport...if that isn't synergy I don't know.

All the fire dragons need is a wave serpent to get there in. The rest is fluff. The squad screening the tank can't stop a wave serpent from flying over them and there are only passengers in transports. Fire dragons don't have to survive. The wave serpent by all rights will and the tank will cost far less than 5 fire dragons unless they're wasting melta guns. Fire dragons function *exactly* like lance pods except the psychic test.



Hmm. Considering what a heavy flamer or inferno flamer does to four Stealers, I'd be happier to see them on the field instead of a BL.
Considering what a heavy flamer or inferno cannon does to any 4+ save model I hardly see the difference? Worried the lone surviving broodlord will charge out and begin butchering squads all on his own? Maybe you should try telling tau players to spend points on getting armor upgrades for their kroot as well because they might get shot at with only lasguns or that carapace armor is useless because AP4 goes right through it.
Throw one unit against its worst enemy in a little bubble if you must, but don't expect it to be proof of the overall gaming environ.

Memnos
20-01-2010, 12:50
Point by point:

- Spike rifles - Having an assault 18 inch means you can retreat and still fire and not get in to hand to hand. Having 12 inches means they charge you next round. With Spike rifles, they move from 18-12, you retreat 6 and still fire. Repeat. 18 inch assault is amazing compared to 12 inch assault.

- Stranglewebs. Don't know enough about their rules to comment.

- Pyrovores. Because you can Mycetic Spore them down and drop 3 heavy flamer templates before the opponent can shoot. Not so useful against Marines. INCREDIBLY useful against Guard, Tau and Orks. I agree they aren't great without Mycetic spores, but with they are unit wipers against specific armies and can do it with 0 casualties.

- Devourers vs Deathspitters - Will have to look that up. I'm uncertain on their rules, but the two I do know, I can point out they have great uses.


This is not a general whinefest- this is me wondering about some of the questionable design choices.

Overall, I'm satisfied with the new codex. Lots of cool new options, improvements to some existing units, and many aspects that remind me strongly of 2nd Ed.

But what I don't understand are a few options that make it clear that the designers just didn't think it through. They seem like they were written without much thought and then never playtested. A few examples include:

-Spike Rifles. For 1pt, you go from a 12" single-shot bolter to an 18" single-shot lasgun. What? If it were free, I could potentially see a bit of usefulness, but for an increase in cost? No way.

-Stranglewebs. The vast majority of units in the game have S equal to T. I can see the special wounds-against-S rules being used against Orks, and that's about it. And in any case, a Termagant with Strangleweb costs as much as three normal Termagants. Running a bit of math, in order for the Strangleweb to be better than 3 Fleshborers in killing power against Guardsmen, the Strangleweb has to cover 5 enemies with one shot. And even in that case, the Fleshborer-armed ones are three times harder to kill. Pinning is small compensation.

-Spinefists on Termagants. They're no better than Fleshborers against Marines, and even against Guard aren't good enough to recoup their cost. They're a reasonably good choice on Warriors, but not for Gaunts.

-Pyrovores. Just why.

But the worst of all:

-Deathspitters vs Devourers on Monstrous Creatures. They're the same price. The Deathspitters have the advantage of AP5 instead of AP-. The Devourers have a point higher S, twice as many shots, and force morale tests at -1Ld. Which would you take?

I can understand that the designers can't foresee every last overpowered combination or underpowered unit, but this is a bit ridiculous. These people are ostensibly professionals, and yet from what I'ver seen, none among them have even a rudimentary grasp of probability. I'd assume that to write and release a rulebook, GW would have qualified gamers and developers analyzing and testing the rules- but this seems not to be the case.

Is there something I'm missing here?

azimaith
20-01-2010, 13:01
Point by point:

- Spike rifles - Having an assault 18 inch means you can retreat and still fire and not get in to hand to hand. Having 12 inches means they charge you next round. With Spike rifles, they move from 18-12, you retreat 6 and still fire. Repeat. 18 inch assault is amazing compared to 12 inch assault.

You seem to mistaking this is an 18" S3 weapon with no Ap vs a 12" S4 weapon with Ap5. Retreating so you don't get into hand to hand is worthless if you're not causing any casualties to start with. You need some 18 shots from spike rifles to kill one marine on average, you need some 12 from the fleshborer. Furthermore the difference in cost between the two (18 spikes=108 vs 12 fleshborers for 110 further increase the number you kill. 18" is also not out of rapid fire range which is a much greater danger than being charged will ever be to tyranids. Spike rifles would be perfectly fine if they didn't cost more.



- Stranglewebs. Don't know enough about their rules to comment.

How can you comment on any of this without the codex?



- Pyrovores. Because you can Mycetic Spore them down and drop 3 heavy flamer templates before the opponent can shoot. Not so useful against Marines. INCREDIBLY useful against Guard, Tau and Orks. I agree they aren't great without Mycetic spores, but with they are unit wipers against specific armies and can do it with 0 casualties.

For that cost I could have put any numbers of models down there. If I wanted to kill guard, tau, and orks I would have bought a trio of biovores and come out 40 points ahead, still butcher said units, and I wouldn't die in one turn.



- Devourers vs Deathspitters - Will have to look that up. I'm uncertain on their rules, but the two I do know, I can point out they have great uses.
Seriously? You're telling us how to use these without the dex?

Souleater
20-01-2010, 13:14
Anyone know why the brood lord is 60 points? That seems rather overpriced as well.

I can only assume it is the addition of his situational psychic powers and the ability to spend more points to take Acid Blood.

Certainly he is bar far the weakest incarnation of the Alpha Stealer/Patriarch/BroodLord that we've seen so far.

My 'Er....' entry is the ability to give our Pods large blast weapons then force them to shoot the nearest target.

Oh, and Thorax swarms. For a general purpose anti-infantry weapon I have no idea why I would want to take anything other than the free upgrade to Dessicators. :confused:

Poseidal
20-01-2010, 13:17
I sometimes think that many of the Deathspitter costs were still thinking it was a longer range Blast weapon, especially for MCs.

The Warriors have a regular Devourer, so it's a plain +Strength, better AP improvement, but on the MCs it's clearly worse.

Overall, I quite like the book even though there are a few price issues in places.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 13:21
The whole codex reeks of lack of thought to me.
Spinefists, deathspitters, lictors, carnifex, hive tyrants, tyrannofex and all his weapons outside the rupture cannon.

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 13:25
I think the biggest blow to the Broodlord is losing the Monstrous Creature type, hence losing it's power weapon attacks. I do miss those when I field them now. However, Acid Blood, while expensive, is a great thing to have.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 13:31
Brood lords were never monstrous, though they had power weapons.
Acid blood is overrated. The whole part where you have to be getting killed and having it only on models you do not want killed makes it retarded. Had it delivered its hits back against the model that did the wound it would be useful but as is, its hardly worthwhile.

Poseidal
20-01-2010, 13:35
Brood Lord is pretty good compared to the 4 Genestealers he displaces, if he's taken plain (with only maybe Toxins for everyone or ScyTal just on him which is quite cheap on him only).

He's actually a little less than 4 toxin genestealers, but for the loss of 4 normal attacks and 1 wound, you get increased S, better I and the psychic powers.

He's not a 'must take' but for certain situations he can be very, very helpful.

Fixer
20-01-2010, 13:43
The broodlord's tranfixing gaze power is almost worth it on his own. A 40% chance to shut down a standard IC, or better against unit sergeants/nobs is extremely valuable.

For a lot of units that one character can be half or more of it's total damage output.

Meriwether
20-01-2010, 13:44
You must be thinking of some tactic not immediately apparent. Don't spoil the surprise for me. ;) I'd like to find the good news for myself.

Perhaps so.


- lictor cannot assault when he deepstrikes. I mean really, it's not like he isn't already *******' there, you just can't see him.

Two shots, rear armor. Add a second lictor and go transport-hunting.


As for crawling death nids, the entire reason why so many of us came to nids was the concept of this overwhelming swarm overrunning everything in their path under an avalanche of warrior beasts.

One. Point. Poison. For most of the army.

Eeeeeew.

Hellebore
20-01-2010, 13:46
It just seems like a speed up of production creating a decrease in quality.

It would have made sense if the toxin sacs for MCs were poisoned 2+ and everything else was poisoned 4+ though.

Still not sure why they can't just make a dozen swarmlords though. It is very odd that the army specialising in hyperevolution is unable to do just that. The swarmlord is a perfect example of the sort of thing they'd WANT to clone a bazillion times.

Hellebore

azimaith
20-01-2010, 13:48
Two shots, rear armor. Add a second lictor and go transport-hunting.

If you're going to shoot you may as well just drop pod a zoanthrope.



One. Point. Poison. For most of the army.

Eeeeeew.
The tyranid army has never had a problem eating troops, it has a problem with killing vehicles and controlling its own troops.
A carnifex, poison or not, is not going to get any cheaper at crushing a tank and neither is a flying tyrant. Without affordable specialists you pretty much get stuck with stuff like zoanthropes for 1500 point games.

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 13:52
Perhaps so.

Please be a Gentleman.


Two shots, rear armor. Add a second lictor and go transport-hunting.

Transport costs 30 - 50 points
Lictor costs 65 points
Chance of lictor doing any damage around 25%
Two lictors 130 Points, you have two Zoanthropes for that, 30 points more and they deepstrike savely.


One. Point. Poison. For most of the army.
Eeeeeew.

Point costs.

Again

Point costs.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-01-2010, 14:38
Fire dragons don't have to survive.


Why not? They could then shoot at the next tank.

It's much better to hit one part of the enemy with overwhelming force where units support each other. Someone wishing to charge the shooty element will be quite loathe to do that if he'll get chopped up in turn, at least in general.



Considering what a heavy flamer or inferno cannon does to any 4+ save model I hardly see the difference?


Other 4+ save models aren't relevant. We are not comparing anything to such models. We are comparing the BL to its points in Stealers, and the latter are without a doubt more fragile.



Worried the lone surviving broodlord will charge out and begin butchering squads all on his own?


No, I play Guard, I'm not that worried about anything charging me. The salient point is that a surviving model is better than no model. Being tougher is included in the BL's point cost, so when you judge it, take that into account as well.

Meriwether
20-01-2010, 14:39
It would have made sense if the toxin sacs for MCs were poisoned 2+ and everything else was poisoned 4+ though.

Well, being able to wound on a 4+ with a re-roll against T6 or less is pretty good for a MC. Indeed, statistically it is *almost* as good as a straight up 2+. A 2+ with a reroll to wound would be rather oogy.


Please be a Gentleman.

Excuse me?


Transport costs 30 - 50 points
Lictor costs 65 points
Chance of lictor doing any damage around 25%
Two lictors 130 Points, you have two Zoanthropes for that, 30 points more and they deepstrike savely.

Why not do both? People keep saying that mech is the "I win" button in 5th edition...


Point costs.

Again

Point costs.

Yeah, those eight point gargoyles are soooooo expensive. Those six-point termagants, too... Can't build a horde with those numbers!

Seriously, gazillions of little guys that can wound MCs (or anything else they want besides vehicles) on a 4+ is a very doable army under this list.

Ninety poison/FC jump infantry for 720 points is a great start to any highly competitive army.

Bolter Bait
20-01-2010, 14:54
Me, I'm wondering what the author was smoking when he came to the Tyrannofex. Besides hating that name with a passion (could we all call it the Myrmidon instead, please?) and having a goony picture, the creature's purpose confuses the hell out of me.

First off, most of it's weapons are range 18" or under and are distinctly designed for killing infantry (in an army that is distinctly short-ranged and good at killing infantry already). So for the most part, it's armaments are redundant when looking at the Tyranid army as a whole.

Then there are the individual weapons themselves. The acid spray really isn't all that bad when I consider it. Wounding 90% of any given troops choice in the game on a 2+ isn't shabby and Template weapons are always loved for their ease of use. Here's the thing. We can pay points to DOWNGRADE it to the fleshborer hive; a 20 shot weapon that has 2 less strength, worsens the Ap by 1, has a shorter range and relies on the creature's BS. Let me put it this way; the hive should kill on average - 6-7 IG, 3-4 Firewarriors, 5 Boyz or 1-2 Marines a turn. How hard is it to use the acid spray in such a manner that will meet or exceed those numbers? Why do we pay to take the fleshborer hive?

The rupture cannon is particularly amusing to me. Taking it completely changes the focus and use of the T-Fex. Not only is it more than twice the range of any other gun the creature possesses, it's entirely wasted against infantry, so taking it effectively renders the other two guns useless. Not only that, unless we know in advance that the enemy will have AV14 in their list, we're better off spending less points on a full brood of Hive Guard or a trio of Zoanthropes in a pod. Even then, despite having to take a psychic test, 3 warp lances should have a better chance than a rupture cannon to inflict a damage result that would please us against AV 14. Maybe if the rupture cannon was twin-linked like a Land Raider's godhammers it would be worth considerig. But it's not.

I don't even want to get into the thorax swarm. A template weapon that will be fired all of once a game and despite having three choices, the only one worthwhile is the desiccator kind. Ugh. This creature is all around whacky with it's lack of focus and redundant capabilities.

blackjack
20-01-2010, 14:58
Ok look whining aside, has anyone come up with a list that can stand up to Gaurd Mech, or Eldar Mech or top Space Wolf builds? I have not seen any. Not even tailored Nid lists can beat the best the other races can produce.

Hollowmind
20-01-2010, 15:03
Anyone else notice that since carnifex broods have to have identical load outs, the "sample army" on the back cover isn't even legal FOC?

Rydmend
20-01-2010, 15:07
Anyone else notice that since carnifex broods have to have identical load outs, the "sample army" on the back cover isn't even legal FOC?

Hah, maybe one is a "counts as" tervigon.

Vepr
20-01-2010, 15:07
Ok look whining aside, has anyone come up with a list that can stand up to Gaurd Mech, or Eldar Mech or top Space Wolf builds? I have not seen any. Not even tailored Nid lists can beat the best the other races can produce.

Not with an all comers list. I pretty much asked the same thing in tactics and got nothing. In my experience so far IG and SW are a up hill battle at best even against their basic lists. It almost seems impossible to me that they tested nids against either of these lists unless it was against fluff filled armies. Sadly with the SW FAQ update Straken has become a better MC at under 100 points than anything we can field.


Anyone else notice that since carnifex broods have to have identical load outs, the "sample army" on the back cover isn't even legal FOC?

:p I wish I could say I was surprised...

Voss
20-01-2010, 15:14
Me, I'm wondering what the author was smoking when he came to the Tyrannofex. Besides hating that name with a passion (could we all call it the Myrmidon instead, please?) and having a goony picture, the creature's purpose confuses the hell out of me.

<snip>

I don't even want to get into the thorax swarm. A template weapon that will be fired all of once a game and despite having three choices, the only one worthwhile is the desiccator kind. Ugh. This creature is all around whacky with it's lack of focus and redundant capabilities.

First, myrmidon doesn't really match any of the name themes in the book, so thats no better. Second, it really isn't any goofier than carnifex, and at least bears some relationship to the other's name.


As to its purpose- its a mid-range infantry killer thats hard to kill itself. Guard blobs? Ork mobs? Yep- thats what its for. Secondary role is late game armor hunting (melee).

The rupture cannon is more than likely a trap. Its fairly decent against vehicles in the armor 12 area, if they are standing in the open. But the weapons loadout I see as most function is acid spray & cluster spines- they're hitting roughly the same range band (18 vs 12+8 template) and
excellent against infantry. As it gets closer to the core of the enemy, the thorax swarm does come into play. End game it should probably be charging enemies of opportunity.

Tactically, it isn't going to do much turn 1, so running is the best option at this point. Turn 2 onwards, lots of targets should be in optimal range, so keep advancing and burning things to death. The enemy is going to have 1 of 3 reactions to this tough and heavily armored beast:

1- Try to burn it down, expending a ridiculous amount of firepower to do so. Unless the enemy is absolutely bristling with las and plas, this isn't going to work so well. And even if they are, it means that they're ignoring the rest of your army, which is probably a fair trade.

2- Ignore it. Also a mistake. Once you crack transports with other useful things (see: elites slot), this thing is going to burn the contents down to the ground. Even MEQs are going to worry about a great many S6 & S5 hits.

3- Fire a few rounds at it. Between toughness, armor and wounds, this isn't going to accomplish much for several turns.

It is an expensive model, and lots of people are going to be eyeing the rupture cannon, but forego the urge. This is a solid, tough as nails anti-infantry piece that forces bad choices on the enemy.

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 15:21
Me, I'm wondering what the author was smoking when he came to the Tyrannofex. Besides hating that name with a passion (could we all call it the Myrmidon instead, please?) and having a goony picture, the creature's purpose confuses the hell out of me.
A critter vaguely like that has appeared in the Tyranid background before, among the same class of creatures that the Trygon belongs to.

The Trygon, Haruspex and Malefactor from Epic are called "assault spawn". They're bigger and killier than a Carnifex. In some incarnations they have transport capacity.

Similar to those are the Exocrine and Dactylis, which are gun-beasts. The Dactylis is straight-up artillery, while the Exocrine is an anti-tank weapon.

The old Trygon is in, re-invented to be a giant revener. The Exocrine is in, given a different look (thank God), a few more options and renamed the Tyrannofex. You could call the Tervigon another one of the Assault Spawn if you squint really hard. However, I would have vastly preferred if they forgot the Tervigon and simply included the Haruspex as a very tough, very expensive open-topped transport (roughly a Land Raider equivalent in power).

I find it really odd that they didn't include other re-designed assault spawn. They fill in the Tervigon/Tyrannofex weight class nicely.


Anyone else notice that since carnifex broods have to have identical load outs, the "sample army" on the back cover isn't even legal FOC?
Same for the inside of the back cover. I don't think that it was intended to be a sample army.

Vepr
20-01-2010, 15:21
The reason I will never field one is that I end up playing SW about every 3rd game where I play. The tervigon, carnifex, and tyrannosaursusfexorex all have I1 so are just useless point sinks against wolves.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 15:24
Why not? They could then shoot at the next tank.

Because you've already done your job. How many tanks does your opponent have that require fire dragons to kill? In 1500 points you don't really see triple raider lists or LR squadrons. You could easily be tearing up other squads while they make sure they deal with the fire dragons so they can't toast something else.



It's much better to hit one part of the enemy with overwhelming force where units support each other. Someone wishing to charge the shooty element will be quite loathe to do that if he'll get chopped up in turn, at least in general.

Its much better to kill what needs to be killed and base your strategy around objectives and not army disposition. If your enemy has a tank that needs to die because its blasting you from 72" away and they've cleverly arranged their objectives on the other side of the board you're not going to be better off swarming the tank.



Other 4+ save models aren't relevant. We are not comparing anything to such models. We are comparing the BL to its points in Stealers, and the latter are without a doubt more fragile.

Anything is fragile against its worst enemy, what about all the bolter fire they could be sucking in cover or the lasgun shots. Theres a lot more stuff thats likely to get within range of a genestealer squad than a heavy flamer (which would have needed to be some 10" away the previous turn to get some 4" of coverage on your unit.)



No, I play Guard, I'm not that worried about anything charging me. The salient point is that a surviving model is better than no model. Being tougher is included in the BL's point cost, so when you judge it, take that into account as well.
I do, the problem is I can't stack wounds onto the BL and 60 points is an asston to pay for something like that. The more genestealers I have the more likely I am to cripple an enemy squad before it strikes back and the less blows I receive. If I get shot I get shot, thats part of being a close combat unit and paying 60 points for a broodlord won't save them from it.

boreas
20-01-2010, 15:27
Don't be foolish.
'Nid players all over the world want to rely on the same four or five units to win them games.

Apparently adaptation is only representative of 'Nids in their codex, not their actual players.

d

That's what I read. I see tremendous fear of having to adapt instead of running forward 5-6 MCs, eyes closed, hoping for the best... I've played my first games against the new nids yesterday (with my Tau, lost 8KP to 6KP) and it was a fun game. Lots of surprises, I couldn't prepare a "power-tooled" list as it's now impossible to know what I'll be up against. My best friend (whom I played against) has been playing nids for about 6 years now and has always run balanced lists. After lots of discussion, no the codex isn't perfect (none are), but it's a very well built codex.

Why, do you ask? First because is has lots of good options, but very few "bad" or "excellent" options. Very few of those "I must take or I won't win" options (like Nobz bikers, Seer council on jetbikes or Lash Princes) that'll be spammed all over lists. Second, you can build a variety of effective builds that will have your opponents guessing what they're up against. This way, you can't "rock-paper-scissor" your way out of the game as it was with the 4th ed codex (hell, my Sisters used to eat nids EVERY game by simply spamming flamers and exorcists to take out the small and big nids respectively).Third, because you have to take a bit of everything and have you units support each other. Warriors instakilled by Missile Launchers??? Not with an escort of Gaunts to give them cover! But the Gaunts have no cover save!!! No problem, add a venomthrope to protect them or a Tervigon to spawn more! Don't just stupidly run your Flyrant towards the enemy... Give it the +1 to reserve skill and try to synchronize it with the arrival of that Trygon.

I think the basic facts are thus:
-Yes, there are some worst options in the codex (Pyrovore and spike rifle come to mind)
-Yes, GW has managed for the players to have to buy lots of new models. It's a company and it has to make money. Mind you, players who had a more balanced list (my friend already had 4 Zoeys, Warriors, lots of Gaunts and enough bits and parts to convert some of the new MC) suffer a bit less.
-Nids players now have a wonderful cupboard of ingredients to prepare a variety of lists of all nature. Many are competitive (3 tervigon!?), many are fluffy.
-Most of all, nid players will have to use tactics to the extend that Tau and Eldars have. This is hard, very hard. It's also challenging and fun.

Phil

azimaith
20-01-2010, 15:28
Well, being able to wound on a 4+ with a re-roll against T6 or less is pretty good for a MC. Indeed, statistically it is *almost* as good as a straight up 2+. A 2+ with a reroll to wound would be rather oogy.
The poison effect is beneficial if you require extra reliability in your rolls, unfortunately there comes a point when more reliability isn't worth more points. If you wound nearly everything on a 2+ you would only be losing any ones you roll.


Why not do both? People keep saying that mech is the "I win" button in 5th edition...

Because lictors share that spot and cost with hive guard and zoanthropes.



Yeah, those eight point gargoyles are soooooo expensive. Those six-point termagants, too... Can't build a horde with those numbers!

Seriously, gazillions of little guys that can wound MCs (or anything else they want besides vehicles) on a 4+ is a very doable army under this list.

Ninety poison/FC jump infantry for 720 points is a great start to any highly competitive army.
Expenses add up after a while, its 40 points to upgrade a 20 man hormagaunts squad with one ability and 20 for a gargoyle squad of the same number. I get better at killing but I don't get any better at surviving thus I die just the same. The only difference is now I lose more expensive models and have a smaller squad size.

ghoulio
20-01-2010, 15:30
Issues that bother after the first read through of the codex (ie stuff that just doesnt feel finished):

- Lictors. Their rules blow my mind. WHY would you have a model that has to come in from reserves have a rule that helps models come in from reserves where it has to be on the table first?!? 50% of the games you will play you will use its effects while the other 50% of the time it is totally redundant and does nothing. Also, if you have a Hive Tyrant it literally does nothing...ever. Lictors should do 1 of 2 things. 1) Infiltrate and you have to use night fighting rules to shoot at them OR 2) keep the rules the same and allow them to come in turn 1.

- Trygon Tunnels. Same thing as the lictors really. They are beyond clumsy right now in how they are handled. The way they are now is in a perfect world your Trygon pops up turn 2 while the unit you want to come out of the tunnel doesnt come out until turn 3, and then on turn 4 you can do something. Why cant they come out the same turn as the Trygon? Why cant you put units in the tunnel like you can for a Web way portal? If this is the way you are going to handle it why can't you assault/move out of the tunnel if it is that big of a gamble? Sigh....

- Mawlochs. For the points cost difference from the Trygon to the Mawloch he really should have WS 3 and 2 sets of scything talons (or at the very least scything talons). Also, clear up their rules! Put in a line that says you may deep strike onto enemy models intentially! Same goes for tyranid weapons!

- Redundant Weapons. Ever notice the sheer volume of repetitive weapons in this book? Almost everything is str 4-6 and range 18-24" with an AP of 5? There are over 25 entries in this book and it offers no more variety then the 4th ed book that had only 7 entries.

- Point costs on things, specifically the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex. I have no problems at all paying 170 for a hive tyrant IF he had an invuln save. Right now we are the ONLY CODEX IN THE GAME that doesnt have an HQ with a real invuln save. With its stats/weapons layout Carnifexs should be 140pts base. They should also have WS 4. If they stayed at 160 they should get BioPlasma for free.

- Useless Units. Units that are sooooo poorly play tested it blows ones mind. Venomthropes top my list, even more then Pyrovores. Why would a unit that has no gun or any ability for a ranged weapon have WS 3 and BS 4? Also, it only has a T4 and 5+ save, so it WILL be the first thing dead every game since it has such a great buff. Why o' why isnt it a "Vet Sarge" type upgrade for a guant unit? Then there is the Pyrovore. There is no reason to take these, ever. I mean, if it was the elite MC choice (like WS 4, Str/T 5 and 3 attacks) with its current gun/rules then awesome, cold find a niche spot. Another way to make it decent would be to give the flamer Str 6, Ap 3.

There are many more bizzare things about this book that make me feel like the wrong book went to press and that it needs a HUGE FAQ. I have played a couple of games and if you stay with the no brainer units/options it is quite fun to play. I feel that it is an "okay" codex that could of been on par with IG or Space Wolves to be a GREAT Codex.

gorgon
20-01-2010, 15:34
Am I the only person who sees a codex with a lot of great options, several compelling builds, and a few surprises for those who do a little thinking?

It seems to me that the tyranid book is now almost on par with the Eldar book for units that need to act in concert to do well -- and yet can to tremendously well if they do so.

This is going to ruffle feathers, but I'm going to say it anyway. Tyranids before Nidzilla were a niche army. There really weren't many Tyranid players and even fewer good ones. Nidzilla changed all that. It was not only an easy army to build, but it provided players with a very strong army that wasn't all that difficult to use. So players flocked to it.

Suddenly a lot of those players are faced with a codex that presents real list-building challenges. And some of them are balking.

Note that I'm NOT saying that everyone complaining is a bad player that can't adjust. Some skilled vets just don't like the feel of this codex, and they're entitled to that opinion. However, I do think a certain amount of natural selection will occur in some circles of the Tyranid player base. And that seems appropriate enough, given the army.

FWIW, I think Tyranids play better than they Theoryhammer. There are the usual obvious reasons for that, but also a lot of little things you don't appreciate until you give them a try on the tabletop.

One example. I didn't like Biovores the first time I saw their rules, but I've had some good success using them in conjunction with Hive Guards in certain army builds. It's pretty interesting popping a transport from out of LOS and then dropping S4 AP4 pieplates on the bunched passengers from out of LOS too. They're not the right fit for every army, but in the right context they're definitely worth their points and slot. I didn't like Lictors either (hated them in fact), although now that I'm really considering them, I'm starting to think they aren't as DOA as I thought they were, at least not in the right army build and context. So they're going to get a real playtest from me, because I've already learned I can't take things at face value. I guess my message here is that players are sorting through a *lot* of new data, and things will take some time to settle out.

IMO there are a lot of good units in the codex. But the army creates listbuilding challenges through either high points costs for certain "answers" and/or through intense competition in certain org chart slots. And many units are glass hammers. So I don't think this is a forgiving army for beginners. You can take some lumps if you don't compose your army properly or if you fail to play it well and don't take proper advantage of your synergies and buffs. I do think it has a lot of upside, though, and I think some new army builds will emerge and surprise down the road.

Bolter Bait
20-01-2010, 15:43
First, myrmidon doesn't really match any of the name themes in the book, so thats no better. Second, it really isn't any goofier than carnifex, and at least bears some relationship to the other's name.
Myrmidon doesn't match the naming conventions of the Tyranids? Classic Tyranids, especially the bio-titans, are mostly plundered and bastardized Greek/Latin words that usually have little to no relation to the creature. The pathetic current naming convention is to just grab a new suffix and slap it onto a prefix that something already has. Venomthrope and Pyrovore? Bah!

Zoanthrope = beast-man/animal-man
Lictor = attending official
Carnifex = butcher/executioner
Tyrant = ruler that seized power without legal right
Termagant = a harsh and shrill woman/violent deity in a morality play
Harridan = see first definition of Termagant
Harpy = see Harridan
Hierodule = sacred prostitute
Hierophant = ancient priest
Exocrine = a gland
Dactylus = finger

All stolen from Greek/Latin language and of them, only Carnifex, Tyrant and the Termagant family are all appropriate.

Now, out of curiosity, which part of Myrmidon is unsuitable for a Tyrannofex?
1.) A loyal, unscrupulous minion that performs any order without pity or remorse.
2.) The Illiad definition, which would be the fiercest of Greek warriors.
3.) Ant-people.

Another name that bugs me. Tervigon. Blah! Why not Echidna, a Greek monster that spawned many new monsters. Or would that be too perfect a name as it describes exactly what it does?

sydbridges
20-01-2010, 15:45
and Tyrant Guards? good lord... why 60 points for a unit that can't shoot?!?

Eh, having played in a mission where you had to kill the highest-point psyker as a secondary objective, I found that trying to get through the nine ablative wounds to kill a kitted out Hive Tyrant to be an exercise in futility. I should note I was playing a Slaaneshi daemons army, so, other than shooting at it with my soul grinders (which I'd rather use to sweep up mobs of gaunts instead), I didn't have many ranged attack options for dealing with it. An IG army with a crapton of heavy weapon teams probably wouldn't have had much trouble bringing the unit down.

...That said, I probably could have avoided the unit for the entire battle if there wasn't a 'you can deep strike one unit every turn' special rule for the battle which allowed my opponent to keep moving his tyrant into position, since my main goal for most of the game was to give it wide berth and slaughter everything else in his army (which I found I did relatively well). Basically, it felt like it was Monolith Durable, so I treated it like a Monolith and kept the hell away from it.

Lord Solar Plexus
20-01-2010, 15:46
Ok look whining aside, has anyone come up with a list that can stand up to Gaurd Mech, or Eldar Mech or top Space Wolf builds?

That does sound like nothing but the usual new Codex doom and gloom mentality I'm afraid. Between Tyrannofex, Hive Guard, Zoeys, spore pods and (outflanking) close combat elements, I don't see why transports should cause auto-loss. Space Wolves want to get close and personal themselves. Even if it is one of those multi-Long Fang lists, I refer you to the pods mentioned previously.


Because you've already done your job.


How do you know?



How many tanks does your opponent have that require fire dragons to kill?


How am I supposed to know that? Even if there's only one LR you can go and pop a Rhino. There, easy KP for you. You cannot seriously tell me you're happy to throw the unit away just because you've popped a tank.



Its much better to kill what needs to be killed and base your strategy around objectives and not army disposition.


It goes without saying that you take both into account. You cannot play these aspects off against each other. Conserving your assets is a viable aspect.



If your enemy has a tank


I don't think that was the situation I had in mind. I naturally agree that in some polar opposite of that one would follow a different approach. However, this isn't just all theoryhammer, and it isn't only completely OT, it's also a strawman.



Anything is fragile against its worst enemy


Your four stealers are more fragile in the vast majority of situations. They will lose hitting power after one single wound, and are wounded much more easily.



Theres a lot more stuff thats likely to get within range of a genestealer squad than a heavy flamer (which would have needed to be some 10" away the previous turn to get some 4" of coverage on your unit.)


There is a myriad of ways to be that close, be it the passengers from the previously popped transport, the second Chimera/squad behind the unit you've just eaten, (heavy) flamers or destructors in a Chimera/Wave Serpent, jump packs, deep strikers...or a simple Hellhound.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 15:49
I hardly see nidzilla as dead, its just different models now, people will just avoid tyrants and carnifex. A s6 monstrous creature (or S6/7 on the charge) will still decimate nearly any tank in the game.

The new army has too many retarded units that don't function well and too many of the units come bloated with upgrades we don't necessarily want or need. If there's anything we nid players have been, its spoiled for options. People who have been playing them for a while have learned to fine tune and tweak a list down to the smallest details. Enter the 5th ed codex and now we can barely tailor anything, everything is bloated with tons of expensive gear we may not even want to use but get no choice in the matter.

In the old codex i'd spend time and effort fine tuning my tyrant and carnifex to fulfill just one important role well. I'd tune my hormagaunts to take on a certain type of enemy, my warriors to serve a certain purpose, and my zoanthropes to support my smaller models. Now in 5th ed I find theres few options and alot of forced upgrades. You want a carnifex with a venom cannon? Guess what, you've got a carnifex with a venom cannon, a pair of talons, an initiative boosting rule, and your paying some 20 points more for one less wound.

If I want a flyrant its even worse, for every point I chop off my gaunt price I have to take on two for every monstrous creature around to flip tanks or battle enemy monsters.

Old Tyranid list building was like old school mechanics, we take careful consideration of what were doing to each and every part of our machine, we use only what we need to balance the whole thing out. The new Tyranid list building is like getting a car with forty eight cup holders, twenty seven CD players, a submersible function, diamond encrusted leather seats, two pairs of spinners on each wheel and three different varieties of flames painted on the body work, and the option of whether you want it painted blue or red.

ashc
20-01-2010, 15:51
There seem to be reams of forced upgrades on units that turn them in to bloated jacks-of-all-trades and masters of nothing.

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 15:52
That's what I read. I see tremendous fear of having to adapt instead of running forward 5-6 MCs, eyes closed, hoping for the best...
If you're going to make that kind of assertion about the character of other players, you'd better back it up. Quote posts.


Why, do you ask? First because is has lots of good options, but very few "bad" or "excellent" options.
Perhaps you haven't been paying attention. I'll try to enlighten you with some of what I've seen:

Paroxysm is a power I expect to see on ever Hive Tyrant ever taken. It's the new Toxin Sacs as far as the Hive Tyrant is concerned (taken on every Hive Tyrant I've ever heard of in the 4e codex).

I haven't heard anyone talk about taking a thorax swarm that isn't the desiccator beetles.

Crushing claws on a Carnifex have been advocated by exactly one member while I've been watching, and that was in addition to devourers (so the talons/claws Crusherfex is universally considered to be a bad choice).

Toxin Sacs on a Carnifex are absolutely useless you are fighting against a Wraithlord or C'tan. Even then, they're probably not worth the price. Toxin Sacs make little sense on most of the other Monstrous Creatures, because it makes it harder to wound the vast majority of models.

You'd have to be braindead to take Adrenal Glands over Toxin Sacs on a Genestealer. On the other hand, the only excuse not to take talons on a Broodlord is that you're using the Space Hulk model.

Indescribable Horror on the Hive Tyrant is terrible. It was free on Hive Tyrants in 4e, and I've never seen it matter.

Bolter Bait
20-01-2010, 15:54
There seem to be reams of forced upgrades on units that turn them in to bloated jacks-of-all-trades and masters of nothing.

Agreed. I'm not a big fan of having options shoved down my throat. I'd rather suffer from having too many options and not knowing which one to pick. Right now, it's like I'm being forced to take option A and then I can choose to upgrade either to option B or C, but both are worse and still cost points.

TheShadowCow
20-01-2010, 16:05
This is going to ruffle feathers, but I'm going to say it anyway. Tyranids before Nidzilla were a niche army. There really weren't many Tyranid players and even fewer good ones. Nidzilla changed all that. It was not only an easy army to build, but it provided players with a very strong army that wasn't all that difficult to use. So players flocked to it.

Suddenly a lot of those players are faced with a codex that presents real list-building challenges. And some of them are balking.

Note that I'm NOT saying that everyone complaining is a bad player that can't adjust. Some skilled vets just don't like the feel of this codex, and they're entitled to that opinion. However, I do think a certain amount of natural selection will occur in some circles of the Tyranid player base. And that seems appropriate enough, given the army.

FWIW, I think Tyranids play better than they Theoryhammer. There are the usual obvious reasons for that, but also a lot of little things you don't appreciate until you give them a try on the tabletop.

One example. I didn't like Biovores the first time I saw their rules, but I've had some good success using them in conjunction with Hive Guards in certain army builds. It's pretty interesting popping a transport from out of LOS and then dropping S4 AP4 pieplates on the bunched passengers from out of LOS too. They're not the right fit for every army, but in the right context they're definitely worth their points and slot. I didn't like Lictors either (hated them in fact), although now that I'm really considering them, I'm starting to think they aren't as DOA as I thought they were, at least not in the right army build and context. So they're going to get a real playtest from me, because I've already learned I can't take things at face value. I guess my message here is that players are sorting through a *lot* of new data, and things will take some time to settle out.

IMO there are a lot of good units in the codex. But the army creates listbuilding challenges through either high points costs for certain "answers" and/or through intense competition in certain org chart slots. And many units are glass hammers. So I don't think this is a forgiving army for beginners. You can take some lumps if you don't compose your army properly or if you fail to play it well and don't take proper advantage of your synergies and buffs. I do think it has a lot of upside, though, and I think some new army builds will emerge and surprise down the road.

Well said, Gorgon. Also, nice trick you pulled having your Gaunts adapt to be resistant to Tau Pulse fire :p

azimaith
20-01-2010, 16:09
How do you know?

Because my job for them was to go kill said important tank.



How am I supposed to know that? Even if there's only one LR you can go and pop a Rhino. There, easy KP for you. You cannot seriously tell me you're happy to throw the unit away just because you've popped a tank.

Absolutely I'm happy if it had to be done and its more important for me to be doing other things. Units have zero innate value, they either aid you toward victory or they don't. If they get to go kill a rhino, great, if they die, fine. I'm not going to shift the entire battle line away from what needs to be done to save a unit on the principle that its a unit. You go where victory requires, out of loyalty to a chunk of plastic.



It goes without saying that you take both into account. You cannot play these aspects off against each other. Conserving your assets is a viable aspect.

Its turn 7 at the end of the last assault phase, I have two objectives with one man each and nothing else in my army, you have one objective, nine tanks, six platoons, two squadrons of Valkyries, a command squad, and one dead hellhound that used to be contesting my objective.
Who won that game?
Kill what needs to be killed, take what needs to be taken and don't worry about the rest. Were playing a game that takes 5-7 turns and that's all. My next game all those dead squads can be deployed again without a problem. You only need to conserve that which leads you closer to victory, wasting time conserving something that will take resources from where it needs to be is a useless point sink.



I don't think that was the situation I had in mind. I naturally agree that in some polar opposite of that one would follow a different approach. However, this isn't just all theoryhammer, and it isn't only completely OT, it's also a strawman.

The point isn't the scenario, its the concept, at the end of a game when everyone picks up their models nothing is lost. Sacrificing a unit to kill another unit thats important is sound, games have finite numbers of units and despite what people often say most armies don't consist of battery upon battery of artillery and tanks raining down unrelenting fire on you. You'll have one or two serious tanks that need real firepower to put down and a collection of smaller IFVs you can put down with much lighter much more readily available weaponry. (Such as a tyrants scything talons) Maybe where you live its different and everyone's got three land raiders in 1000 points and up but that doesn't seem to be the norm.



Your four stealers are more fragile in the vast majority of situations. They will lose hitting power after one single wound, and are wounded much more easily.
They also hit more thus rending more. 5+ save models being fragile is nothing new but they don't get any less fragile for having a 60 point model in there. You can't just dump every wound onto the broodlord thus you're only saving one stealer from possible death each time you allocate wounds.



There is a myriad of ways to be that close, be it the passengers from the previously popped transport,

Would I not be eating them if they were popped in 10"



the second Chimera/squad behind the unit you've just eaten, (heavy) flamers or destructors in a Chimera/Wave Serpent

And? Is it wrong that a squad of genestealers die after eating a squad alive to fast and then being toasted while in the open? I don't see this as proof of needing a broodlord.



, jump packs, deep strikers...or a simple Hellhound.
Right but how does that change what i've been saying, none of those are prevented by having a broodlord. So instead of losing an entire squad of genestealers you have a broodlord standing around on his own. Sure, he could charge a unit should they not finish him off with the regular fire in addition to the flamers but to what end, that 60 points could have been paying for a zoanthrope, 12 more gaunts, wings for my tyrant, or any number of things.

gorgon
20-01-2010, 16:17
Well said, Gorgon. Also, nice trick you pulled having your Gaunts adapt to be resistant to Tau Pulse fire :p

LOL. Left me short on big bugs, though.

It's funny...I've been playing my army specifically as Hive Fleet Gorgon for 10 years now, and even received a little publicity for it in years gone by in WD and the GW Web site. And now I look like a poor schlub who lacks the imagination to come up with his own hive fleet name, LOL.

shrewbay
20-01-2010, 16:21
I was surprised but excited at the prospect of a new Codex for Tyranids (as it's not been THAT long since the last one, unlike the Necron/Dark Eldar Codexes, ancient by comparison), and have been disappointed at the decrease in flexibility of the 'nids in this edition. The ability to tailor your swarm to your whim at the time was a huge strength of the old codex, and you could modify essentially the same army with various biomorph changes to make a very different swarm without major modelling replacements. I really like some of the new models, but their shortcomings mean they will be more for display than for real use...I am alone in thinking I might just carry on using the old codex rules for my games with my son? As I don't play competitively, I don't think I'm going to be rushing to use the new Codex version of the 'nids...perhaps if everyone does this GW will get the message when no-one turns up to tournaments with a 'nid army?

azimaith
20-01-2010, 16:22
The best part of Hive Fleet Gorgon was honestly the Tau Ethereal welcoming the necrons with a big celebration.

Big mistake, like asking for some guy with track marks and the shakes to hold your baby while you go to the bathroom.

Bolter Bait
20-01-2010, 16:24
The best part of Hive Fleet Gorgon was honestly the Tau Ethereal welcoming the necrons with a big celebration.

Big mistake, like asking for some guy with track marks and the shakes to hold your baby while you go to the bathroom.I cracked up when I read that section of the time-line. The best part of the codex isn't even about the Tyranids.

shrewbay
20-01-2010, 16:29
The best part of Hive Fleet Gorgon was honestly the Tau Ethereal welcoming the necrons with a big celebration.

Big mistake, like asking for some guy with track marks and the shakes to hold your baby while you go to the bathroom.

Definately - Optimism on a BIG scale for the Tau there! I thought the Ethereals were supposed to be clever, uniting opposing factions of Fire Warriors, masters of diplomacy...you'd have thought they'd have hesitated a bit and talked it through beforehand...what they did was a bit like John Connor giving a terminator a big hug...

azimaith
20-01-2010, 16:32
Granted they may not have met necrons before but typically, if someone who looks like an eight foot tall skull faced robot was coming to town I'd be just a bit more cautious.

gorgon
20-01-2010, 16:37
I was reminded of the scene from Mars Attacks. I figure it went down about the same.

Regarding finetuning, I think tuning in the way you guys mean it has been a dead concept since not long after the 4th ed Tyranid codex was released. You can blame Cruddace, but we're a few years down the road in that trend. And from what I personally experienced and saw in others, for the most part people didn't vary their armies much under the 4th ed codex because there wasn't much that Nidzilla couldn't handle.

Personally, now that the army is structured around jack-of-all-trades on one hand and fairly extreme specialists on the other, I see much more opportunity to tune my army to particular opponents. It's more "macrotuning" by swapping units in and out than "microtuning" by adjusting particular stat-bump biomorphs. If the latter is what floats your boat, then I can see why you aren't happy with the codex or 40K in general these days.

Skyros
20-01-2010, 16:52
To be fair, the SW codex also had a lot of :wtf: issues as well.

Bloodclaws on foot can't take MOTW but if they have jetpacks they can?
Wolf guard can join bloodclaws on foot, they can buy jetpacks, but they can't join bloodclaws with jetpacks?
No frostblade for a terminator armor?
WG with lightning claws in PA cost more than with lightning claws in TDA?
Are TWC T4(5) or T5?
Can WG/characters join wolf scouts and obel?

etc

MOST of those were fixed by a FAQ. I am hopeful a similar FAQ will clear up most tyrannid issues.

I do think these questions are rather indicative that the list wasn't presented fresh to brand new players who hadn't seen it before. I can see problems like this slipping in if the same group of testers is used for all stages of the list, and incremental changes happen all the time. While a new person will immediately be struck by a question the tester who has seen all stages will remember previous versions and assume things are there when they aren't.

shrewbay
20-01-2010, 16:53
It's more "macrotuning" by swapping units in and out than "microtuning" by adjusting particular stat-bump biomorphs. If the latter is what floats your boat, then I can see why you aren't happy with the codex or 40K in general these days.

I for one am not "unhappy" with 40K in general, but just think (as others have said) that GW have missed a trick or two with this Codex. A good example is the Spike rifle as discussed a lot here...I was really happy to see them back (having a group of them, and a couple of stranglewebs too), but their statline was a real let-down, not really providing a difficult choice for the majority of players.

As for "microtuning", I went more for extreme mods...high S/T/Sv regen carnifex, hordes of cheap gaunts, some "stormagaunts" (a home-made type with warrior heads and devourers, more expensive, harder to kill (+Sv/T/S etc) or an army with a ton of warriors as an extreme - lots of scope for different loadouts...x2 ST for CC, deathspitter standards, too many to mention....that was the beauty of it.

GW stated one of the reasons for taking this out was to make it easier for nid players to come up with armies, but I think this really goes against their other stated purposes of engaging peoples imaginations etc rather than just going through mathhammer, PC-game type play...come on, I'd rather throw in some wierd and wacky armies just to see what happens, than have a bunch of stuff that most players won't touch because they're universally seen as hopeless!

I'm all for change, but change which limits choice is always going to be controversial!

Having said all that I'll still be playing 'nids, if only for how they look on the gaming table, after all, it is for fun!

BTW, what does everyone think of Spore Mines now?

Meriwether
20-01-2010, 17:06
Expenses add up after a while, its 40 points to upgrade a 20 man hormagaunts squad with one ability and 20 for a gargoyle squad of the same number. I get better at killing but I don't get any better at surviving thus I die just the same. The only difference is now I lose more expensive models and have a smaller squad size.

Exactly. Now you have decisions to make that are not no-brainers, and you have to think good and hard about not only what you bring, but how parts of your army list are going to compliment each other. I think effective lists in the bug book have moved entirely from almost-independent units to highly interdependent flanks. And I like that.

...and 720 points for 90 poisonous jump infantry with furious charge is still a bargain, whether you spend the rest of your points on big guys or more gribblies.


The ability to tailor your swarm to your whim at the time was a huge strength of the old codex, and you could modify essentially the same army with various biomorph changes to make a very different swarm without major modelling replacements.

We have a guy at our LGS we call "Cheater Tom", because in addition to being rather dodgy on the tape measure, he also seemed to have any/every biomorph he needed at any given time. You can still do that a little here, but I think that the change from "holy crap I have no idea if that's a S6 3+ save whatever basic weapons or a S7 2+ save with Implant Attack" to "I have a pretty good idea of what that is when I look at it" is a good, good, GOOD change.

They did it to Daemon Princes in the CSM codex (to everyone's collective sigh of relief), and they did it again here. Good.


I'm all for change, but change which limits choice is always going to be controversial!

All change is controversial, and creates a huge amount of griping on the internet. If it limits choice, the army owners whine. If it expands choice, everyone else whines. When it comes to changing anything, THEY CAN'T WIN.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 17:09
Why in the world would GW think it was hard for us to make armies for nids. The trend of dumbing down lists strikes me as ridiculous. 40k is not a cheap game to play which rules out people who have had full frontal lobotomies from really playing. Do they think their demographic so intellectually inept we can't handle more than five choices?

As for sporemines, they're good in orbital deployment as you can use them to alter your opponents deployment, prevent them from starting in cover, or in dawn of war games, project a 36" no deploy zone.

UberBeast
20-01-2010, 17:14
I'm guessing design choice for most of these. Spike rifles, Stranglewebs, and Spine fists are things that they didn't really want in the army, but included them so veterans would maybe moan a little less about invalidated models. Hence the slightly less than optimal pricing that allows you to field your old models with little harm to your competitiveness, but discourages people from building more of these variants.


Sounds about right.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 17:14
Exactly. Now you have decisions to make that are not no-brainers, and you have to think good and hard about not only what you bring, but how parts of your army list are going to compliment each other. I think effective lists in the bug book have moved entirely from almost-independent units to highly interdependent flanks. And I like that.

...and 720 points for 90 poisonous jump infantry with furious charge is still a bargain, whether you spend the rest of your points on big guys or more gribblies.
I don't see them as more interdependent at all. There used to be a lot of wave style play where you'd sacrifice and position certain units to make victory possible, now there's a bunch of no brainer must haves and never takes. Zoanthrope? In. Venomthrope? Replace with gargoyles for screen. You don't really screen for genestealers anymore because they've automatically got infiltrate, don't screen for flyrants because you're better off with a trygon ect ect.

720 points for 90 poisonous jump infantry with furious charge is more than you need and thus cuts into what specialist choices you want. 720 points is practically half of a 1500 point army and it still doesn't even have scoring choices yet.

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 17:35
Suddenly a lot of those players are faced with a codex that presents real list-building challenges. And some of them are balking.
Who? Cite posts in support of your assertion, and then tell us why that means something.

---

List-building challenges disappear if someone is willing to netlist. It doesn't matter how fine the balance is. If someone has "solved" the codex, they can solve it for everyone.

Not knowing what the optimal list is yet won't stop people from playing the army. Thinking that the "optimal" list won't be up to snuff may cause people to stop playing the army. I won't blame competitive players for making that choice *if* it turns out that the Tyranid codex doesn't meet their needs for competitive play.

Lord_Squinty
20-01-2010, 18:16
Am I the only person who sees a codex with a lot of great options, several compelling builds, and a few surprises for those who do a little thinking?

It seems to me that the tyranid book is now almost on par with the Eldar book for units that need to act in concert to do well -- and yet can to tremendously well if they do so.

Nope, I see a brilliant codex (not without a few WTF moments, but not enough to spoil it), it could do with a really quick FAQ for stuff like Mawloc and weapons, but even without that, I gave a SW army a complete kicking the other night with my first attempt at a list.
The possibilities in selecting the army aren't reduced to a fey key units like most codexes, granted there are a few that are def no hopers (see below)
pyrovore's not one BTW, in a pod - will be awesome I would think, And Ymgarl Genestealers are pretty much my MUST TAKE unit so far.
(when combined with spore mines for yummy goodness ;) )



OT: What do people think of the Venomthrope?

*disclaimer - havn't actually tried it or seen anyone else try it yet*
While it looks a great unit - the lack of 2 words stop me even considering it..
"independant character" (or another such rule)
The lack of any ability to join another unit is ridiculous to say the least - 2W with a dodgy save. Any small sacrificial unit can easily killing it - taking away all the bonuses it provides, never getting to use its funky close combat rules..
I may be proved wrong later, butits a NO from me for Vexanthrope.

gorgon
20-01-2010, 18:18
Who? Cite posts in support of your assertion, and then tell us why that means something.

I don't have to cite or justify anything. I made a statement, which I'm allowed to do, and stand by it. It's not like this thread is exactly chock-full of well-supported and well-considered opinions based on careful introspection and thorough playtesting.

Here I thought you were one of those skilled vets who simply didn't like the flavor of the book, as I said in that paragraph. Huh.

azimaith
20-01-2010, 18:25
I've seen more than a few WTF moments which is the problem.
Trygon subterranean tunnel. You need to bring him in on turn 2, wait till turn 3, then someone can come out and assault on turn 4? Better hope he comes in the first roll.

Lictors and Death Leaper with +1 to reserves rolls... if they're on the table for a turn and they must deploy from reserves. Seriously, if they're not in on turn 2 they're useless in that aspect. Teleport homer quality is equally retarded.

Toxin sacs for anything over S5.
Carnifex with bioplasma cost in addition to its base cost.

Crushing claw cost.
Gun upgrades(and costs!) for the mycetic spore pod.
Spine fists and spike rifle costs.

Hive Tyrant indescribable horror for the same price as old adversary and hive commander.

Tyranid SCCWs.

Anything thats not dessicator larva or possible shardshredder beetles for thorax swarms.

Tyrannofex base cost.

Tyrannofex Fleshborer Hive.

Venomthropes and pyrovores.

Deathspitters.

Stanglewebs

Broodlord upgrade being full 60 points.

Harpy Cost

The horror psychic power.

No winged tyranid prime.

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 19:01
I don't have to cite or justify anything. I made a statement, which I'm allowed to do, and stand by it. It's not like this thread is exactly chock-full of well-supported and well-considered opinions based on careful introspection and thorough playtesting.
Speaking ill of the motivations of another member is a somewhat different matter. Giving your own opinion on the subject is okay, but speaking about the opinion of someone else without showing where they expressed that opinion is akin to personal attack, without being personal.

My beef was a forum etiquette one. If you're going to speak on other members or their attitudes, I'll ask for some justification.


Here I thought you were one of those skilled vets who simply didn't like the flavor of the book, as I said in that paragraph. Huh.
What disappointed me are the internal balance issues, the inexplicable reduction in options for units like the Carnifex and Genestealers, and the sloppy mechanics.

---

The background is odd in some places. Hormagaunts for instance have an insect-like, skittering gait, because they leap. I can't picture how that works. I always thought of Hormagaunts moving like rabbits.

I was also confused by the inclusion of units like the Tervigon and Tyrannofex in lieu of existing units that could be re-designed fill those roles in the same way that the Trygon got a face-lift.

There is some interesting background, though. Tyranid faster-than-light drives are something I've been curious about for a long time now. I'm also a bigger fan of the "who can cheat harder" contest of adapting tactics rather than the "waves of men" theory of warfare. Tyranids have now been presented as yo-yo-ing between efficient victory and terrible defeat. That dynamic is more interesting.

In some places they take pains to make a nod to classic background (Termagants as hunter-slayers within Hive Ships), while in other places they go out of their way to ignore background that does precisely what they want to do (the Exocrine). I don't get it.

---

In general I agree with the method of USRs instead of stat modifications, because it's not fair for players to have to memorize every option in a different codex. Universal rules are easier to memorize and understand, in my humble opinion. You shouldn't need a copy of your opponents' codexes to remember what their models do.

However, I was surprised to see the loss of some of those options. Enhances senses could have stayed, to represent the "acute senses/night vision" rule. Extended carapace should have stayed for a number of models, because Genestealers for instance have bitz for modeling them. Similarly Flesh Hooks should have stayed for the models that have the option on the sprue. The disappearance of those upgrades is unnecessary; they doesn't make the codex better by their removal. I don't know what they were thinking.

---

Some of the mechanics issues should have been spotted a mile off. Spore Mines in particular are a bigger mess now than they were, which has me wondering just what they were thinking. I also consider Toxin Sacs on the Carnifex a mechanics issue, because the only way I can explain it is that the team didn't understand that you wound on the poison value even if it's worse.

---

I can and have rolled with the new strategic situation. I'll win and have a lot of fun with this codex. That doesn't stop me from criticizing mistakes to the hilt when I see them.

ghoulio
20-01-2010, 19:03
It frustrates me that so many of those things you listed Azimath are things that people who have had the codex for exactly 1 week have been able to point out with no effort. It honestly feels like to me that we got the rough draft of the book that is full of good ideas for how things should go, now it just needs a "refining" pass to iron out slight stat changes and points costs as well as rule clarification. If this book had all the large "wft?" things removed and with things tidied up then this would be an incredible book as it is geniunely fun to play (played my first game last night...Nid vs. Nid game...was freaking awesome).

Meriwether
20-01-2010, 19:07
Why in the world would GW think it was hard for us to make armies for nids. The trend of dumbing down lists strikes me as ridiculous. 40k is not a cheap game to play which rules out people who have had full frontal lobotomies from really playing. Do they think their demographic so intellectually inept we can't handle more than five choices?

I think they made making a good bug list well less of a no-brainer this time around. Clearly you do not agree.


*disclaimer - havn't actually tried it or seen anyone else try it yet*
While it looks a great unit - the lack of 2 words stop me even considering it..
"independant character" (or another such rule)
The lack of any ability to join another unit is ridiculous to say the least - 2W with a dodgy save. Any small sacrificial unit can easily killing it - taking away all the bonuses it provides, never getting to use its funky close combat rules..
I may be proved wrong later, butits a NO from me for Vexanthrope.

My brother and I were talking about the venomthrope the other day... It's easy to kill, but it will be a while before it gets into bolter (or equivalent) range. This leaves your opponent with the choice of dedicating a squad's shooting (and probably an anti-infantry squad, like devs with HBs or something) to taking out the venomthrope, or shooting the stuff the venomthrope is protecting...

A bit like a grot screen. Do you shoot the grots to get them out of the way, or do you ignore them and shoot the stuff behind them?

Target saturation is something you can really, really do in this codex. Give your opponent too many choices of what he needs to kill.

So I haven't seen it in action, but I see it as a useful choice in the right list.


Spore Mines in particular are a bigger mess now than they were,

They now work much closer to how they originally did when nids were brand-spankin' new.

ehlijen
20-01-2010, 19:17
:eyebrows: Your chances of getting a fex near a special character, even in a drop pod is slim to none. Unless of course you run into other players that regularly leave their special characters out by themselves with no support.

In other words horse squeeze.

And being able to make the opponent keep his special characters away from certain areas through fear of instagibbing is worth nothing now?

That's precisely my point: These kind of characters will gladly go Trygon hunting, but run like little chickens from carnifeces. You get to control where your carnifeces go and thus where those characters won't. Surely that is worth something?

Ozeor
20-01-2010, 19:23
Hopefully the faq comes sooner then later

Neffertech
20-01-2010, 19:25
I think target saturation is a huge issue when playing against this new list.

Even the Pyrovore brood becomes an issue. If you don't shoot it and it makes it to hand to hand you could have quite an issue, especially orks or guard mega squads. Acid blood and all.

A big part of playing against tyranids is now going to be target selection. What needs to die in what order.

Shipmonkey
20-01-2010, 19:30
Anyone else notice that since carnifex broods have to have identical load outs, the "sample army" on the back cover isn't even legal FOC?

Where is it mentioned as a sample army? Most codexi have pictures in them that are simply dioramas not functional armies.

On a related note though, theer doesn't actually seem to be any sample army lists in the book. Not even the courtesy 1500 that appears in most codex.

EmperorEternalXIX
20-01-2010, 19:34
The Carnifex thing was necessary because of the broods thing.

Do you know how ugly it would have been if they were costed less but still had the broods option? 270ish points for 8 T6 wounds, high strength, etc...yes please. I wish it was T7, only because it would have helped it seem a little more unique.

The Hive Tyrant, most people seem to forget, comes with a boatload of psyker powers, too, some of which are very good.

The Spike Rifles complaint isn't very viable because it has a point; Str4 is a big difference to Str3. You get either an extra 6" on the Str3 weapon, or the ability to hurt light vehicles on the Str4 one.

The strangleweb gives you an option to deal with hordes, not a hell of an option but it's there. The pyrovore's intent is probably a bit simpler; "We'd better give them a template model or they are going to be mad."

The deathspitters/devourers thing...really hard to say why they did that. Maybe the FAQ will lower the deathspitter cost?


That's precisely my point: These kind of characters will gladly go Trygon hunting, but run like little chickens from carnifeces. You get to control where your carnifeces go and thus where those characters won't. Surely that is worth something? Being able to drop a Carnifex into the enemy line is HUGE. Dropping it in front of a transport and forcing it to alter its path is a big deal, not to mention the spore itself is a model, so positioning them correctly in front of the right stuff early on can really ruin the enemy's approach. It also alleviates the problem of the Carnifex's lessened stats, as he will spend less time getting shot at en route. It's all about smart placement; if you put him somewhere where he can't be shot by much, he could do some damage early on! "Oh hello Long Fang/Devastator/Havocs/Predators..."

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 19:40
I think target saturation is a huge issue when playing against this new list.

Even the Pyrovore brood becomes an issue. If you don't shoot it and it makes it to hand to hand you could have quite an issue, especially orks or guard mega squads. Acid blood and all.

A big part of playing against tyranids is now going to be target selection. What needs to die in what order.

I get your point, but please bear with me for a second as that one is mentioned quite a few times in the Tyranid threads by different people though there is a large flaw in it.

Target saturation is dependend on point values.
It is not a question how many you kill but how many points you get back.
Every Anti Tank hit on the Carnifex grants you 40 points back.
Every Anti Tank hit on the Pyrovore grants you 55 points back.
Every Anti Tank hit on the Warrior grants you 30 points back and people are complaining about Warriors and the Carnifex.. now what about Pyrovores if allready Carnifices and Warriors are considered fragile?
To me the new list grants you quite a few points with every successfull hit.

O.k. I don't know if my point came out well, but at least you agree with me, that it is something different shooting at something and killing 40 points or up to 80 (or in rare occassions in the Codex even 160).
Let's just agree that Target Priority does not always work. At some costs it stops to be of any importance.

EmperorEternalXIX
20-01-2010, 19:56
I see your point, but it's worth noting...a monstrous creature is still 100% as deadly even if wounded. So I don't really see inflicting a wound as earning the point.

Besides you don't HAVE to go all MC or otherwise. If you do, then you are hoping that the anti-tank saturation will be overwhelmed by your number of MCs. If you don't...who cares about a lascannon?

That aside, you have many options for disabling those elements of an enemy army. Drop-spores, Death Leaper, etc.

Neffertech
20-01-2010, 19:57
But we don't play with victory points.

Getting your points back, is an exercise that only works off the table. It's an excellent yardstick for table effectiveness while off the field but matters less than in the game than the actual placements and dispositions of models.

Everyone has won or lost a game because of a single model left in a troop squad that survived or went unnoticed. Or because of the transport that did a last second tankshock to deny an objective.

A unit's values are not only in it's ability to inflict and/or absorb damage on a point for point value basis. If it were, Green Tide would still run the tables in competitions.

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 20:05
O.k. I see my fault, though the last minute grabbing never happened in my entire gaming career unless to me one time where I definately made a huge mistake.
O.k. it was my fault, but I still want to point out, that if there are less troops on the field that can be killed than before, the enemy army gets much more effective. Sure you have to decide what to shoot at, but in my personal opinion you should have enough fire power to cover all of your enemy troops with enough shoots, looking at the costs of most of the army.

Still I agree the MC point was bad. However effectiveness is one thing, looking at the low destruction ability of the Carnifex nowadays. There are quite a few units, that doesn't seem at all terrified by this Creature in Close Combat.

Meriwether
20-01-2010, 20:22
Getting your points back, is an exercise that only works off the table.

I disagree. "Getting your points back" is a completely useless fabrication of the minds of those who don't understand tactics.

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you (that's a theoretical "you", not specifically you, Neffertech or Max Jet) ever, ever, EVER find yourself asking the question "will this make its points back", realize that you are doing something very wrong.

Sometimes, units that die without killing or wounding anything -- every time you bring them -- are better than units that make their points back x5.

Neffertech
20-01-2010, 20:36
Max, I don't understand the new carnifex myself.

I just don't get it. He's expensive and stuck between the other choices in Heavy Support. Sure you could get 9, but why would you? Unless because you already have 9. (Which I do) In almost every situation I can think of for him I'd rather use a Trygon, Mawlock, TerranoFex or really anything. He's just the middle child. And losing all the cool heads, backs and tails on the model is frustrating.

I also don't get MC Devourers vs Deathspitters. I guess that AP 5 is at a premium. Just take the MC Devouerers, and it ends up a choice that really isn't a choice at all.

I would have liked more options yes. But I concede that playing against tyranids was a pain when their stats kept changing. More options means more balancing. More balancing meant more of a tendency for things to end up top heavy and you end up with auto includes.

I think the change over all is very good, but there are a lot of birthing pains and changes I don't understand. But units like the Venomthrope, pyrovore and others have a place in the army, maybe not at the front of the Against All Comers line but they have a place. And if and when somebody finds the Fex's new place they will be sure to tell everyone.

One last thing. I think that if something is included in an army it has a purpose, even if I don't know what the purpose is. I may be totally incorrect, but it's easier to work under that notion than the opposite.


I disagree. "Getting your points back" is a completely useless fabrication of the minds of those who don't understand tactics.

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you (that's a theoretical "you", not specifically you, Neffertech or Max Jet) ever, ever, EVER find yourself asking the question "will this make its points back", realize that you are doing something very wrong.

Sometimes, units that die without killing or wounding anything -- every time you bring them -- are better than units that make their points back x5.


I agree. But I think it's only human nature to take a unit you have created and run mock battles in your head against an equivalent force. In this case points are how you determine equivalence. I would assume it's how many of us decide whether or not a pair of carnifex are a match for a unit of thunder hammer terminators. We can't play out an entire match in our heads so we break it down into bite size chunks that we can play out. I'm making the assumption that what I do is common though.

I think "getting a unit's points back" is just part of our mental tool kit, right or wrong on the table. (or at least is part of mine)

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 20:44
I disagree. "Getting your points back" is a completely useless fabrication of the minds of those who don't understand tactics.

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you (that's a theoretical "you", not specifically you, Neffertech or Max Jet) ever, ever, EVER find yourself asking the question "will this make its points back", realize that you are doing something very wrong.

Sometimes, units that die without killing or wounding anything -- every time you bring them -- are better than units that make their points back x5.

I realize, only looking at "Do I get my points back" is wrong.
But what you said is equally wrong.
In a tactical view you need to consider both. Units Supporting, and units that can put out damage.

thus..

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you (that's a theoretical "you", not specifically you, Neffertech or Max Jet) ever, ever, EVER find yourself asking the question "will this make its points back", realize that you are doing something very wrong.

You are wrong on this view onless you change your sentence into "If you ever find yourself ONLY asking the question..."

Shadowfax
20-01-2010, 21:10
I care far less about it than I do about the braindead rules, but the fluff and quality of prose in this book is shockingly abysmal. I haven't read the background sections of any of the other 5th edition codexes, so this may just be a trend that I'm unaware of, but it blew my mind how pathetic this offering is.

I haven't trawled the entire bloated thing yet, but so far Ymgarl Genestealers as shapeshifting Vampires / the redheaded stepchildren of the Hive Mind are my favourite embarrassing example.

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 21:46
To make it clear.
The fluff is pretty humanly and characterized. It's less alien and more heroic, humanlike, unlogical.
The Swarmlord being the best example.. just why don't they make just more of him? Oh right.. he is an undying hundred year old hero whose mind get's downloaded into his personal westcoast custom pimped body.

de Selby
20-01-2010, 21:49
I think there are a lot of people arguing at cross purposes here. I am still pleased to see they new niddex at last because of the new models and the potential for more. In terms of fluff and character I'd say some things have been improved. In terms of internal balance (by points and slots) I am just mystified, but what else is new. I really don't understand what is happening in the design studio when, say, Phil Kelly gets his first look at the Tervigon rules, and then flips to the carnifex rules or even the pyrovore rules. Doesn't he have the same reaction we (nid players) all do? Are we all crazy or are they? Why for the love of Mike is there a model for the Pyrovore but not the Tervigon?

I really hope there's a second wave. The models make up for all the rules crazyness, or I wouldn't still be here.


Responding to some random points:



-Stranglewebs. The vast majority of units in the game have S equal to T. I can see the special wounds-against-S rules being used against Orks, and that's about it. And in any case, a Termagant with Strangleweb costs as much as three normal Termagants. Running a bit of math, in order for the Strangleweb to be better than 3 Fleshborers in killing power against Guardsmen, the Strangleweb has to cover 5 enemies with one shot. And even in that case, the Fleshborer-armed ones are three times harder to kill. Pinning is small compensation.


I am one hundred percent in favour of the reintroduction of the strangleweb (it was one of the issues I sympathised with 3rd ed. nid players about when they lost the option). It's a test against strength because that is fluffy (one of the reasons the old strength S assault X rules were superior to the latest approach). The part of my brain that protests against things being stupidly overcosted has been exhausted already so I don't care about that.


Why does Old One Eye have Living Battering Ram?? Why??? It does nothing for him at all because it doesn't override crushing claws!


Isn't crushing claws a special close combat weapon now? Can he opt not to use them?


Why not Echidna, a Greek monster that spawned many new monsters. Or would that be too perfect a name as it describes exactly what it does?

But 'echidna' is already the name of a sort of antipodean hedgehog, unfortunately. I agree with you about 'myrmidon' though.


Granted they may not have met necrons before but typically, if someone who looks like an eight foot tall skull faced robot was coming to town I'd be just a bit more cautious.

But look at their mastery of technology! Just think what an enlightened attitude they must have developed! :D

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 21:55
Target saturation is something you can really, really do in this codex. Give your opponent too many choices of what he needs to kill.
I'm wary of this kind of thinking, because if every model is a good target then it all just dies. I'd rather present a wide variety of bad targets than a wide variety of good targets. Some armies can do the latter.

I'd like to be able to deny my opponent the optimal value of some of their guns.


I disagree. "Getting your points back" is a completely useless fabrication of the minds of those who don't understand tactics.
Units do have to justify their presence on the table somehow. Some of them are allowed to slack off by holding objectives and providing cover saves, but eventually someone has to kill something. So, if you're taking a unit to kill things it's prudent to see if it can actually kill what you need it to. There are units that can kill five times their value in troops and still come out on the other side, and you should find a way of making that happen.

There are plenty of units that are good at "making their points back", and those units tend to be handy. So, that turn of phrase not completely useless. It's just not a requirement for a unit to be useful.

Freman Bloodglaive
20-01-2010, 22:16
Not with an all comers list. I pretty much asked the same thing in tactics and got nothing. In my experience so far IG and SW are a up hill battle at best even against their basic lists. It almost seems impossible to me that they tested nids against either of these lists unless it was against fluff filled armies. Sadly with the SW FAQ update Straken has become a better MC at under 100 points than anything we can field.

No, they rewrote the Space Wolf thing. Now counter-attacking you only get +1 attack, no other bonuses.

Orktavius
20-01-2010, 22:36
I think the new Nid Codex is just about perfect, while the carni is a little overpriced *I think 150 points before upgrades would be fair..anything less then that would just be asking for a new nidzilla now with 9 fex's* they dealt with the issue of them being ridiculously overpowered quite nicely and gave some damn fine alternatives in the heavy support choice section. Also, since there seems to be the prerequiste amount of whining and complaining about the new codex that happens whenever ANY army gets a new codex they had to have done something right. After all, nothing they will ever do will ever satisfy everyone...and if your stupid enough to think that they should satisfy everyone, then your opinions can be safely ignored.

TheShadowCow
20-01-2010, 22:58
To make it clear.
The fluff is pretty humanly and characterized. It's less alien and more heroic, humanlike, unlogical.
The Swarmlord being the best example.. just why don't they make just more of him? Oh right.. he is an undying hundred year old hero whose mind get's downloaded into his personal westcoast custom pimped body.

Who is to say that the same isn't true of a thousand other successful Hive Tyrants that perform well on the battlefield and are sent back for another go? The Swarmlord isn't *special*, he's just the named example included in the list.

catbarf
20-01-2010, 23:00
Actually it states that basically the Swarmlord is the leader of the entire race, and as such a unique individual.

sayles78
20-01-2010, 23:09
Tyranid Warrior Broods are armed with Talons and Devourers. I can swap the Devourers for Rending Claws for free because the cost of the Devourer is already factored into base cost. No problem.

So, for 0pts, I swap Devourers for Rending Claws, so my entire brood is armed with Talons & Rending Claws, and then they lose any benefit the +1BS provided the brood (also built into base cost). Still - no problem. I'm happy enough with that.

NEXT

Tyranid Shrike Broods are armed with Talons and Devourers - same as warrior broods. To give these guys the Talons & Rending Claws Loadout as above, what we have to do is...

Swap our Talons for Rending Claws @ 5pts per model.
Then - swap our Devourers back for the Talons that we had in the 1st place.
Same as the warrior brood, these guys are losing the benfit of the +1BS already built into the base cost of these guys, but this time it's actually costing us to do it.

This just doesn't make sense to me. What's with the double swap? Could it not be as simple as just swaping out Devourers for Claws?

I do have a bit of a problem with that. It's not like the points are going to be game breaking - it's just... well... silly. And annoying.

Max Jet
20-01-2010, 23:19
Just got the Space Wolves Codex to read... and you guys are complaining, that Tyranid warriors shouldn't survive a krak missile!!!!

The lone wolf just sooo concentrates on his awesomeness and the fight.. he has the eternal warrior rule.. right makes totally more sense than Tyranids and eternal warrior...

ashc
20-01-2010, 23:22
Just got the Space Wolves Codex to read... and you guys are complaining, that Tyranid warriors shouldn't survive a krak missile!!!!

The lone wolf just sooo concentrates on his awesomeness and the fight.. he has the eternal warrior rule.. right makes totally more sense than Tyranids and eternal warrior...

A 'nid is Bad News.

But the Lone Wolf is Bad. Ass.

YYYEEEAAAHH :cool:

Vepr
20-01-2010, 23:24
Just got the Space Wolves Codex to read... and you guys are complaining, that Tyranid warriors shouldn't survive a krak missile!!!!

The lone wolf just sooo concentrates on his awesomeness and the fight.. he has the eternal warrior rule.. right makes totally more sense than Tyranids and eternal warrior...

Their EMO shield is just that durable. ;)

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 23:25
they lose any benefit the +1BS provided the brood (also built into base cost).
Ideally, the cost of the +1BS would be factored into the price of the Devourer, not the model. The gun and BS and the BS associated with it can be considered a package.

EDIT:

The lone wolf just sooo concentrates on his awesomeness and the fight.. he has the eternal warrior rule.. right makes totally more sense than Tyranids and eternal warrior...
The guys with a deathwish have a remarkable will to live.

Vepr
20-01-2010, 23:25
No, they rewrote the Space Wolf thing. Now counter-attacking you only get +1 attack, no other bonuses.

Good news. Strakens 12" aura would have been a little broken for his cost.

kaimarion
20-01-2010, 23:26
Someone said there is nothing wrong with the pyrovore...really...seriously? It's useless...better armor, more attacks and fine maybe but how it is now I really doubt 90% of people will ever feild them.


I'll be using a unit of 3 in my army (as a proxy for biovores) ;).
They could work well against guard/tau if dropped down in a pod but the whole being utter rubbish in combat thing really ruins them.


EDIT: I just finished painting my biovore 2 min ago and I've just went and knocked it off the table :cries:.

jsullivanlaw
20-01-2010, 23:28
The point costs seem just fine to me. The problem is that people are comparing it to the underpriced guard codex and not something like the daemon codex which is also a fifth edition codex. The IG codex is broken, that doesn't mean every other codex has to be broken too...

Badger[Fr]
20-01-2010, 23:28
I really want an excuse, a reason for why this is. I don't want to think Cruddace and GW are incompetent. But that's the way things seem to be leaning.
Considering how badly written several IG units and upgrades actually are (Medics and Bodyguards that are more expensive than the squad they're meant to protect, underwhelming Leman Russ variants, useless and overpriced SC with ambiguous rules, and so on), I think you've got your answer.

ashc
20-01-2010, 23:30
I agree with Badger[Fr], I think the difference here is that the good far outweighs the bad for the IG book, whilst the jury is still out and has been for far longer on the 'nid book than the IG one.

Anyone else notice Cruddace's penchant for toxic spray templates and guns that fire 20-shots a turn in both these books? :angel:

Vepr
20-01-2010, 23:32
I think the new Nid Codex is just about perfect, while the carni is a little overpriced *I think 150 points before upgrades would be fair..anything less then that would just be asking for a new nidzilla now with 9 fex's* they dealt with the issue of them being ridiculously overpowered quite nicely and gave some damn fine alternatives in the heavy support choice section. Also, since there seems to be the prerequiste amount of whining and complaining about the new codex that happens whenever ANY army gets a new codex they had to have done something right. After all, nothing they will ever do will ever satisfy everyone...and if your stupid enough to think that they should satisfy everyone, then your opinions can be safely ignored.

There are too many vague rules and options that just do not make any sense to say the dex is anywhere near perfect.

Generally the whining and complaining surrounding a codex is people crying that something in the new dex is broken like JotWW. We have not heard that about the Tyranid codex at all. Some say that is because it is balanced or it could also be that there is nothing particularly impressive about the book in general. Time will tell but initial impressions seem to be that it does not measure up to either the IG or SW codex.


The point costs seem just fine to me. The problem is that people are comparing it to the underpriced guard codex and not something like the daemon codex which is also a fifth edition codex. The IG codex is broken, that doesn't mean every other codex has to be broken too...

This codex does not seem to measure up to IG, SW, Daemons or even Orks for that matter.

sayles78
20-01-2010, 23:34
Ideally, the cost of the +1BS would be factored into the price of the Devourer, not the model. The gun and BS and the BS associated with it can be considered a package.

EDIT:

The guys with a deathwish have a remarkable will to live.

It's the fact that warriors swap devourers for claws for free. The shrikes have to pay 5 pts for the same privelage. The +1 BS being lost once the devourer has been replaced was really just a side note.

ashc
20-01-2010, 23:35
This codex does not seem to measure up to IG, SW, Daemons or even Orks for that matter.

The way you say that makes it sound like you think Orks have a bad codex, Vepr :confused:

Orktavius
20-01-2010, 23:37
WTF..... Pyrovores rubbish in combat? LMAO, maybe you didn't read acid blood carefully enough. For every wound the enemy does to them in close combat the attacking models take a wound with no armor or cover save allowed. It doesn't much care for overkill either so if the pyrovore takes oh...I dunno 14 wounds from an ork boy mob in close combat, the boys lose 14 models. Don't get me wrong...I understand you still have to get them INTO close combat without dying, but those buggers make an amazing suicide unit for nailing dedicated assault squads.

catbarf
20-01-2010, 23:37
Here's a funny bit of pricing with Tyranid Warriors.

Start with a Warrior. Price is five Termagants.
Replace the Devourer with Rending Claws, for free.
Scything Talons + Rending Claws, for five Termagants' cost.

Start with a Warrior. Price is five Termagants.
Replace the Scything Talons with Rending Claws, for the price of a Termagant.
Replace the Devourer with Scything Talons, for free.
Rending Claws + Scything Talons, for six Termagants' cost.

Same loadout. Different prices. Way to go, GW.

Orktavius
20-01-2010, 23:39
Also I think this codex stacks up VERY well against all the other codex's. It's just that the old nid lists that people are used to playing such as Nidzilla do not stack up anymore. Quite frankly I stopped playing nid players because it was entirely unenjoyable to see army after army of pretty much all MC's with min gaunt squads for objective taking

Vepr
20-01-2010, 23:39
The way you say that makes it sound like you think Orks have a bad codex, Vepr :confused:

I don't think Orks have a bad codex but it was one written in 4th with 5th in mind so even measuring the new Nid codex to something that was outside of the 5th release the codex seems lackluster.

itcamefromthedeep
20-01-2010, 23:43
The point costs seem just fine to me. The problem is that people are comparing it to the underpriced guard codex and not something like the daemon codex which is also a fifth edition codex. The IG codex is broken, that doesn't mean every other codex has to be broken too...
Well, the Carnifex doesn't make sense regardless of what you compare it to. It's no Greater Daemon, not by a long shot. It's not much better than a close combat Wraithlord, if at all. It's roughly a fair match for most Daemon Princes (Lash excluded). It ain't no Avatar, that's for sure.


Generally the whining and complaining surrounding a codex is people crying that something in the new dex is broken like JotWW.We've heard a few complaints about Warp Lance. We've heard nothing to sway the general community about them, but complaints have been voiced.

We've also heard a bit about the Doom of Malan'tai.

Nothing on the scale of Jaws, though, if I remember correctly.

ashc
20-01-2010, 23:43
I don't think Orks have a bad codex but it was one written in 4th with 5th in mind so even measuring the new Nid codex to something that was outside of the 5th release the codex seems lackluster.

Ah, that makes sense, thanks for the clarification :)

To those who think a lot of this is 'Nidzilla whining: I really do not think it is. The major problems people have are that the points costs, upgrades, and setup for most of the units in the book are so completely random, at odds with their old uses, or just plain bad that they do not know what to make of it in their entirety.

You know something is amiss when at 1500pts. people do not think they can field a swarm of little gribblies with a hive tyrant and a carnifex because they are just too expensive and don't even bring to the board what you expect them to. :wtf:

Orktavius
20-01-2010, 23:47
oh there are undoubtedly problems and mismatched point costs, but that happens in EVERY bloody codex. I just think the doom and gloom and overall attitude of many players towards the codex is undeserved. Fex's needed to be changed....BADLY and they were. Did they get a bit over nerfed? maybe...but in my opinion the only bad change was they upped the basic point cost a little to much. T7 5w 2+ save fex's with regeneration were just way to powerful and were harder to kill then a freaking landraider

Vepr
20-01-2010, 23:49
Also I think this codex stacks up VERY well against all the other codex's. It's just that the old nid lists that people are used to playing such as Nidzilla do not stack up anymore. Quite frankly I stopped playing nid players because it was entirely unenjoyable to see army after army of pretty much all MC's with min gaunt squads for objective taking

It is aggrevating that everyone thinks every nid player was nidzilla. I only own three magnatized fexs and one tyrant and I rarely fielded all three fexes unless the game was over 1500 points. I never even played stealers spam... I never played nidzilla why can't nid players be unhappy with the new dex for reasons outside of nidzilla. :cries: :p

Orktavius
20-01-2010, 23:52
sorry...only nid lists I've seen among the 5 or so nid players in my area is either nidzilla or stealer swarm. There are some legit things to complain about in the new nid dex outside of these area's but no more then any other army has to complain about

ghoulio
20-01-2010, 23:52
WTF..... Pyrovores rubbish in combat? LMAO, maybe you didn't read acid blood carefully enough. For every wound the enemy does to them in close combat the attacking models take a wound with no armor or cover save allowed. It doesn't much care for overkill either so if the pyrovore takes oh...I dunno 14 wounds from an ork boy mob in close combat, the boys lose 14 models. Don't get me wrong...I understand you still have to get them INTO close combat without dying, but those buggers make an amazing suicide unit for nailing dedicated assault squads.

If Pyrovores actually worked like this then people probably wouldnt be complaining as much. The thing is with Acid blood you need to take an initiative test. So against anything OTHER then orks you need a 5+ to wound, and on orks a 3+. So just looking at that it isnt so great. I can't remember the wording off of the top of my head but I am pretty sure you can only dish out as many wounds as the beasts had in the first place.

If you think about it though its a pretty moot point since nobody would get into combat with them instead of just shooting them. T4 with a 4+ save and only 2 wounds wont last too long even from regular bolter/shoota fire. I think Venomthropes take the edge on these guys as worst unit in the codex, but not by much.

Worsle
20-01-2010, 23:53
Just got the Space Wolves Codex to read... and you guys are complaining, that Tyranid warriors shouldn't survive a krak missile!!!!

The lone wolf just sooo concentrates on his awesomeness and the fight.. he has the eternal warrior rule.. right makes totally more sense than Tyranids and eternal warrior...

Yes but the lone wolf is a single model unit, warriors are not. Lone wolves need a game mechanic to keep them in play or else the would not be worth taking. So comparing the two in this manor is silly because it misses the point of these two units.

Nidzilla also looks to be a very viable tactic in this book, just you need a diffrent form of army (with a range of units, the horror of it). Unlike the nidzilla of old that had died as a properly competitive when we moved into the 5th, so hell even if you could not make it in this book it is not that you where loosing it anyway. After that people need to adapt to the new book or just steal Stelek's lists, as I must admit his nowhere to run list looks rather tempting...

kaimarion
20-01-2010, 23:54
WTF..... Pyrovores rubbish in combat? LMAO, maybe you didn't read acid blood carefully enough. For every wound the enemy does to them in close combat the attacking models take a wound with no armor or cover save allowed. It doesn't much care for overkill either so if the pyrovore takes oh...I dunno 14 wounds from an ork boy mob in close combat, the boys lose 14 models. Don't get me wrong...I understand you still have to get them INTO close combat without dying, but those buggers make an amazing suicide unit for nailing dedicated assault squads.

I don't think they it works like that or was intended to work like that but I could be wrong. Remember they have to fail an initiative test before they take the wound and I doubt the ork boys will cause any real amount of wounds after being flamed by 2-3 of these fething things.

At least the model is nice :D.

CapnBob
21-01-2010, 00:04
Isn't crushing claws a special close combat weapon now? Can he opt not to use them?

I don't think so. They're Tyranid Close Combat weapons. They don't follow the main weapon rules. And the crushing claws entry specifically states that the penalty applies for having them. Plus, they're not gloves, he was born with them.

If they ARE special weapons, then he can never use both the scything talons and crushing claws in the same turn, and then that's a different kind of pointlessness. If they AREN'T, then he doesn't get the benefit of living battering ram. So basically, there's a bunch of stupid there somewhere.

Actually, doing the math of the carnifex against just about any kind of tank with the capacity for 2 or more shots at S8 or better is pretty sad. I just ran a typical leman russ with a lascannon and heavy bolters against any kind of tooled-up carnifex I can come up with, and the carnifex pretty much only survives by staying out of 48" range and ignoring it or by starting closer than 24". At 25" he has to get the first turn and get a good run roll to survive, otherwise the odds say he's dead. The odds actually decrease for a brood of multiple carnifexes because battle cannons become capable of doing multiple wounds to the brood.

I'm just making my own house rules codex at this point. It's either that or running tons of drop pods and trygon variants. I don't want to have tons of MCs, but I'd like to be able to have 1 or two that can survive long enough to do their job.

Orktavius
21-01-2010, 00:06
there's no cap on the wounds and fine the initiative test does offset the no armor saves a bit but free wounds is free wounds. Also, you can drop them in spores to get em up close and personal faster, a nice bath in flame templates is usually a nice touch before an assault. Plus...to be fair.... your likely running more important targets to be blasted before the pyrovore so there's a good chance they'll make it into close combat.

itcamefromthedeep
21-01-2010, 00:09
Fex's needed to be changed....BADLY and they were.
It's not because they were too powerful. It was because there too many of them. Many non-competitive lists don't have the firepower to kill that many threatening T6 4W models. That problem wasn't solved, by the way. Soon there will be cries of "nerf the Tervigon, nerf the Trygon" because they're in the same position. It doesn't really matter how powerful they are when you only take a few of them. Nidzilla didn't go anywhere, it was just the Carnifexes ant Tyrants that took the hit.

You would encounter the same problem if you fill virtually an entire army with Hive Tyrants. It would be much the same you could make an entire army of Razorbacks. Just Razorbacks, like 20 of them. It's not that the model is too powerful, but rather that you can spam a particular kind of unit effectively.

Vepr
21-01-2010, 00:12
sorry...only nid lists I've seen among the 5 or so nid players in my area is either nidzilla or stealer swarm. There are some legit things to complain about in the new nid dex outside of these area's but no more then any other army has to complain about

I will admit there were a lot of nidzilla players but I knew more than a few myself included that had lists running gants, gants, warriors, raveners, lictors and even biovores. About the only thing that never made it into one of my lists was gargoyles but that was just due to the cost.

I am still going to keep playing this new dex and giving it my best to put together good all comers lists I just think it is a mess and does not appear to be very well thought out.

Orktavius
21-01-2010, 00:28
About the Trygon....your right there will be many of them showing up soon and with their 6 wounds they will be nasty. Here's the thing though, a Trygon is only strength 6, not strength 9 so it's not going to be able to instantly kill everything I send at it in close combat. It's still a ridiclous monster but it's a killable monster that I can send my nob squad at without losing just about all of em in one go. Nids need MC's they don't have tanks so MC's are their bread and butter and I will never begrudge em for that. What I didn't like is seeing 3 nigh unkillable 5 wound T7 2+ armor regenerating monsters that wouldn't go down to two full rounds of two squads Looters blasting them. I think they should be priced at 150 points base to give the fact that you can have 3 as a choice some meaning but there was no need for them to keep the 2+ save the tough 7 or a 5th wound.

Squallish
21-01-2010, 00:34
I would just as soon have seen them at -25pts without 1-3 (or their old Elite Slot movability). If we're going to have to convert them to Tervigons because the Fex rules are crap (for its cost) anyway, then there's no harm in making us allowed only 3 max.

That said.. on another note... Trygons are cool and all.. but I think after the novelty wears off and people realize how tunnels aren't reliable, we may actually see the Carnifex in a pod w/ Bioplasma make a comeback to support the Zoans podding in and get the instant killing factor back.

So my basic feeling is Carnifex are too expensive, but not too expendable for their place in the army. With re-roll hits and S9+2d6, they're the second most reliable anti-heavy-tank after Zoans.

EmperorEternalXIX
21-01-2010, 00:39
The arguments against the broodlord are beginning to anger me.

I have been pretty happy with 5th edition, because when I started in 4th, there were certain classes of whiners. It was the Eldar, until their new dex; then Chaos complained a lot; the Tyranids and Tau were pretty whiny too.

There hasn't been a "Whiny Team" for a long time, but watching people slag the Broodlord as a lame choice is just angering me.

I play as the Space Marines and Space Wolves, and that guy could beat the snot out of most of our leaders (indeed, the entire SM book, likely) AND gain all the benefits of an upgrade character. His save is lousy, so what? Everything else he is sporting is godlike, and his points cost is insane.

Everyone is slagging this book; I don't get why. "Oh we have an option that makes no sense!" We ALL have options that make no sense cost-wise. We all also have units that we won't really use. I'm beginning to think maybe 5th Ed nids are the new complainer demographic...I mean, in this thread I see people saying this army is unplayably bad, FFS. That's ridiculous!

This book has a lot of strengths and I see a lot of complaining about how it's not "niddy" enough. How is it not niddy enough? Meriwether pointed out earlier that you can go horde with all poison/FC jump infantry for 720 points to start...and I don't know about you guys, but I've been reading fluff about mycetic spore assaults for years and wondering why they never had the ability to do it.

Vepr
21-01-2010, 01:05
The brood lord is one of the things I actually like. Not sure what is not to like about him now. He loses power weapons but gains fleet and adds some extra punch to the stealers.

Max Jet
21-01-2010, 01:12
I too think there is nothing wrong with the Broodlord.

And come on, be honest. What exactly is there complain about how Space Marines are treated? Now that would be really bold to whine about the Space Marine Codex, THE 40k Codex.

And I have read/heard more whining about how Tau shouldn't be in 40k than Tau player complaining about their Codex, and I know 3 Tau player personaly.

Just open your eyes. The actual amount of useless options and flaws exceeds that of any other Codex by far.

ghoulio
21-01-2010, 01:13
The arguments against the broodlord are beginning to anger me.

I have been pretty happy with 5th edition, because when I started in 4th, there were certain classes of whiners. It was the Eldar, until their new dex; then Chaos complained a lot; the Tyranids and Tau were pretty whiny too.

There hasn't been a "Whiny Team" for a long time, but watching people slag the Broodlord as a lame choice is just angering me.

I play as the Space Marines and Space Wolves, and that guy could beat the snot out of most of our leaders (indeed, the entire SM book, likely) AND gain all the benefits of an upgrade character. His save is lousy, so what? Everything else he is sporting is godlike, and his points cost is insane.

Everyone is slagging this book; I don't get why. "Oh we have an option that makes no sense!" We ALL have options that make no sense cost-wise. We all also have units that we won't really use. I'm beginning to think maybe 5th Ed nids are the new complainer demographic...I mean, in this thread I see people saying this army is unplayably bad, FFS. That's ridiculous!

This book has a lot of strengths and I see a lot of complaining about how it's not "niddy" enough. How is it not niddy enough? Meriwether pointed out earlier that you can go horde with all poison/FC jump infantry for 720 points to start...and I don't know about you guys, but I've been reading fluff about mycetic spore assaults for years and wondering why they never had the ability to do it.

You are right on some accounts in regards to people over complaining about this book. You are also right that you can make competitive lists. What you are missing the point on is the "options that make no sense".

As a Space Marine player most things in your army make sense. There are things you can put Locator Beacons on can start on the board or come in on turn one...ours comes in with the rest of the deep strikers and have to be on the board for a full turn before they can be used for example. I cant think of anything off the top of my head other then maybe Vanguard vets that i wouldnt take because they are either so outragously overpriced or the rules are so retarded. In the nid book there are MANY of these options. So many things are counter-intuitive. I have listed many before (Trygon Tunnels, Lictors, Pyrovores, Cost of Carnifexs vs. Trygons, Venomthropes having no ranged weaponry but having WS 3 and BS 4, No Invuln saves on any HQ, etc.), and I am sure there are others.

One of the big selling points of this army was that there we so many new units with so many great choices, then you read the rules and there are just so many things that make no sense. I really really like where the new codex is going, I am going to keep playing it and I am sure it will it will be fun, I just really wish it was cleaned up and refined, thats all. I think that is what most people are complaining about.

Worsle
21-01-2010, 01:39
Venomthropes having no ranged weaponry but having WS 3 and BS 4

See when you list things like that you are torpedoing your own argument. The venomthrope's basic stats come from zoanthrope, who are WS3 and BS4. They are not the first unit in the game to have no shooting attacks but to retain their BS from the base unit. Welcome to every other codex. The lack of invuln saves seems to have been part of the theme, if it bothers you that much though take regeneration.

Now there are some crap units in the codex and some upgrades that are strange or just there for fluff reasons but every codex has that. Trying to make out this codex is worse is silly and when you start putting in stupid examples it makes your argument look bad.

Koryphaus
21-01-2010, 01:39
I'm not so up in arms about the new codex, I actualy rather like it (bar the few strange pricing issues, ie carnifex and MC death spitters/devorers ad termagant options but I can live with them).

However I noticed one huge glaring issue that I have seen anyone else mention.

The deathleaper is as we all know supossed to be a mutant strain of lictor, HOWEVER nowhere in his actual rules, stat line or unit entry is he mentioned as such, now for his bio morphs and weapons as well as special rules it says "see page 41", this refers to the lictor page as they share the same special rules.

All well and good you may say, but, when reading the rules for, lets say pheremone trail we see the unfortunte wording of:

"If a LICTOR is on the board [...] within 6" of a LICTOR and will not scatter"
(quote new nid dex page 41, emphasis mine)

This is the same for all the shared rules, they specifiy LICTOR, not model or unit.
Now fortunately I don't play against the kindda people who take this kinda thing as being an issue but if your with a group who takes RAW seriously, well that's a very expensive single model that technicaly cant do most of what its supossed to, rather sad really.

It seems like a bit of a bonner of a editing/proof reading mess up if ever there was one.

In the same way as Nork Deddog is an Ogryn, without being specifically mentioned as one, Deathleaper is a Lictor.

Meriwether
21-01-2010, 02:04
I realize, only looking at "Do I get my points back" is wrong.
But what you said is equally wrong.
In a tactical view you need to consider both. Units Supporting, and units that can put out damage.

thus..


You are wrong on this view onless you change your sentence into "If you ever find yourself ONLY asking the question..."

I strongly disagree. "Getting your points back" is never a valid tactical consideration. The only worthwhile tactical consideration is: does this unit advance my battle plan?

itcamefromthedeep
21-01-2010, 02:08
Everyone is slagging this book; I don't get why. "Oh we have an option that makes no sense!" We ALL have options that make no sense cost-wise. We all also have units that we won't really use.
Some options are better than others. For instance, a lot of people take flamers over plasma guns these days. There's an argument between the two weapons, and you can see situations where you would want one over the other, because they do different jobs.

With the Tyranid codex, you see a lot of options that compete very closely in role and effect, where one is simply better than the other. You don't see plasma gun v flamer, you see plasma gun v bolter.


This book has a lot of strengths and I see a lot of complaining about how it's not "niddy" enough. How is it not niddy enough?
Name names, and I'll help set them straight.

There are few who thought the stat increases were a vital piece of background, but I don't. I find that the new biomorphs do pretty much what you think they'd do by description, and that's enough modification for me. I'm comfortable that there's only as much variation between Gaunts as there is between Cadian and Catachan Guardsmen. The little stuff can be ignored on this scale.

Vepr
21-01-2010, 02:09
See when you list things like that you are torpedoing your own argument. The venomthrope's basic stats come from zoanthrope, who are WS3 and BS4. They are not the first unit in the game to have no shooting attacks but to retain their BS from the base unit. Welcome to every other codex. The lack of invuln saves seems to have been part of the theme, if it bothers you that much though take regeneration.

Now there are some crap units in the codex and some upgrades that are strange or just there for fluff reasons but every codex has that. Trying to make out this codex is worse is silly and when you start putting in stupid examples it makes your argument look bad.

That means the Tyranofex and Carnifex are related due to name. Why doesn't the Tyranofex have Str 9? :p Seriously though this argument is strange to me.

If this is the reasoning behind the BS 4 on the venomthrope and it actually figures into the points cost the designer is special and not in a good way. If it does not figure into points cost then no big deal.

itcamefromthedeep
21-01-2010, 02:14
The venomthrope's basic stats come from zoanthrope, who are WS3 and BS4. They are not the first unit in the game to have no shooting attacks but to retain their BS from the base unit. Welcome to every other codex.
My favorite part is how Genestealers have no idea how to get a defense weapon working in Planetstrike. They could do with some pointers from a Trygon, who seem to have no difficulty with the task. Or Termagants, who can make those weapons work just fine despite not having hands.

Ballistic Skill for a gunless troops comes up once in a blue moon.

Oktober
21-01-2010, 02:26
I wrote Games Workshop and they said to call them...here is the letter:

We are sorry to hear that you have some concerns over the new Tyranid codex. Unfortunately we will be unable to talk to you about your concerns via email as it would take too long, however we would be more than happy to talk to you over the phone on 0115 914 0000 about this.



I hope this helps.



Cheers


Games Workshop

daboarder
21-01-2010, 02:33
ok guys lets all call the absolute hell outta that number.

Sythica
21-01-2010, 03:18
I'm confused by the wording on the options for Warriors (and Shrikes): why does it specifically say replace its devourers with "an additional set of scything talons"? I can only think to read this as you can make this swap only if you keep the first set of scything talons, otherwise it wouldn't be an additional set.

Therefore, no scything talon/lash whip & bonesword combos for the warriors, and no scything talon/rending claws combo for the shrikes. Which kinda sucks, as those are optimal combos.

The funny thing is, the GW website blog shows Jim Lister making a Tyranid Prime with scything talons/lashwhip and bonesword.

Vaktathi
21-01-2010, 03:21
additional set meaning from the original basic loadout. it's entirely acceptable to have dual boneswords with scytals for instance if you want.

fwacho
21-01-2010, 03:56
Actually, doing the math of the carnifex against just about any kind of tank with the capacity for 2 or more shots at S8 or better is pretty sad. I just ran a typical leman russ with a lascannon and heavy bolters against any kind of tooled-up carnifex I can come up with, and the carnifex pretty much only survives by staying out of 48" range and ignoring it or by starting closer than 24". At 25" he has to get the first turn and get a good run roll to survive, otherwise the odds say he's dead. The odds actually decrease for a brood of multiple carnifexes because battle cannons become capable of doing multiple wounds to the brood.



Actually... with just a bit cover the carnifex starts winning this equation. get behind some decent cover and carnifex reliably gets his points back. beside what idiot charges his FEX 48" across the board. you'll be goign after somethign in that 24-30" range or a make use of his frags to close on that squad that infiltrated into cover. and if it was too scared to infiltrate then you just gained some intangibles.

Shadowfax
21-01-2010, 04:07
I strongly disagree. "Getting your points back" is never a valid tactical consideration. The only worthwhile tactical consideration is: does this unit advance my battle plan?
My battle plan frequently involves removing enemy models from play.

CapnBob
21-01-2010, 04:25
Actually... with just a bit cover the carnifex starts winning this equation. get behind some decent cover and carnifex reliably gets his points back. beside what idiot charges his FEX 48" across the board. you'll be goign after somethign in that 24-30" range or a make use of his frags to close on that squad that infiltrated into cover. and if it was too scared to infiltrate then you just gained some intangibles.

Well, with city terrain that's possible. Pretty much nobody else I know around here has terrain that grants cover to fexes though, needing to be 50% or more covered from true line of sight, so it's far from guaranteed. The main gaming locations around here certainly aren't set up for it, so the only cover you can reliably get is from OTHER monstrous creatures or from a venomthrope, which is nice for that ability.

But I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen infiltrators used against tyranids in the last 16 years, so I'm really not sure what the rest of your post is talking about.

Most cases I've seen with local gamers means no cover saves for anything that big, and the fex goes down pretty easily in 2-3 rounds of shooting on average. Not much point in marching them across the table, might as well use drop pods or a trygon. Or I supposed I could get a big box, carry my own terrain everywhere and insist they use my terrain instead of theirs. That'll go well.

And yes, only an idiot would try to march his fex over 48", which is why I made absolutely no mention of doing anything of the sort. I was just pointing out that statistically a fex survives for a long time if nothing but a battle cannon's firing at it, and moving closer than 48" to fire a heavy venom cannon at the tank puts the carnifex at a significantly increased risk with little chance for success.

Meriwether
21-01-2010, 04:37
My battle plan frequently involves removing enemy models from play.

It is of course trivially true that your overall *army* will be focused on accomplishing objectives -- the greatest of which is removing enemy models from the game -- but that has nothing to do with the value/use/validity-of-taking any particular unit. The unit serves only to further the overall battle plan, and does not necessarily in any way shape or form have to kill anything -- or be expected to kill anything -- to make it wholly worthwhile to bring.

An example given earlier in this thread is the use of the Carnifex to keep ICs away from particular parts of the board, for fear of going ID-squishy. Even if they don't end up killing much themselves, they will (or at least should, if you've planned things properly and play well) help everything else in your army remove enemy models from play.

Indeed, perhaps the most "broken" model in the game is Eldrad Ulthran, and yet he almost *never* kills anything himself.

Grots have their place in an ork list, and yet rarely do anything but die.

In 4th edition, my brother's gargoyles typically died without inflicting much in the way of casualties -- all 32 of them. And yet, they were absolutely the MVPs of his army, and he wouldn't have won nearly as often without fielding them.

Shadowfax
21-01-2010, 05:31
It is of course trivially true that your overall *army* will be focused on accomplishing objectives -- the greatest of which is removing enemy models from the game -- but that has nothing to do with the value/use/validity-of-taking any particular unit. The unit serves only to further the overall battle plan, and does not necessarily in any way shape or form have to kill anything -- or be expected to kill anything -- to make it wholly worthwhile to bring.

An example given earlier in this thread is the use of the Carnifex to keep ICs away from particular parts of the board, for fear of going ID-squishy. Even if they don't end up killing much themselves, they will (or at least should, if you've planned things properly and play well) help everything else in your army remove enemy models from play.

Indeed, perhaps the most "broken" model in the game is Eldrad Ulthran, and yet he almost *never* kills anything himself.

Grots have their place in an ork list, and yet rarely do anything but die.

In 4th edition, my brother's gargoyles typically died without inflicting much in the way of casualties -- all 32 of them. And yet, they were absolutely the MVPs of his army, and he wouldn't have won nearly as often without fielding them.
I don't disagree with anything here, but I also don't think it invalidates the usage of a simplistic "how likely am I to kill stuff with this unit" analysis for any given choice in a codex which you plan to use for the heavy lifting.

ghoulio
21-01-2010, 06:01
See when you list things like that you are torpedoing your own argument. The venomthrope's basic stats come from zoanthrope, who are WS3 and BS4. They are not the first unit in the game to have no shooting attacks but to retain their BS from the base unit. Welcome to every other codex. The lack of invuln saves seems to have been part of the theme, if it bothers you that much though take regeneration.

Now there are some crap units in the codex and some upgrades that are strange or just there for fluff reasons but every codex has that. Trying to make out this codex is worse is silly and when you start putting in stupid examples it makes your argument look bad.

I dont understand how saying that I think it is silly that a hand to hand combat unit that has a higher BS then WS when it has no guns "torpedoes" my whole argument. Why couldnt they evolve more into a hand to hand combat strain? I mean, look at Lictors. They are based off of warriors and they have +1 WS, +2 str, +2 init. In regards to invuln saves I wasnt saying that all the MC's should have invuln saves, just the Tyrant (since it is the most psychic creature in the book) as I know that is one of the ways they are making the Tyranids different then demons.

I understand that every codex has bizzare rules that dont make that much sense. All I am saying is that some of the options REALLY dont make sense, more-so then in other books where rules flow and have a synergy about them. Most of them are just so easy to make tiny quick fixes and they would be great (ie Trygon Tunnels, Lictor special rules, etc.). The book is still fun, and I will still play it :)

Dethlore
21-01-2010, 08:16
After playing Nids since 2nd Ed first came out, there have been a great and many changes to the official rules to the army... but isn't that part of the challenge? Adaptation, which is especially essential to the Nids, shows cunning and wisdom. Even if you don't like some of the new rules or don't want to lose old rules, there's usually an option to use House Rules, which often times happens when I'm trying to bring new players into the game.

I particularly miss my invuln saves... but that made sense since I was able to march across a field of hammerheads unscathed.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2010, 09:34
That exemplary Leman Russ shooting at a Carnifex I think skews the picture. A Leman Russ might take off a wound of a Fex per turn yet that doesn't decrease the latters effectiveness one bit. The Fex could move and shoot and not care whether he has AP1 or AP4 because a single glancing or penetrating hit will render the MBT unable to shoot for one turn.

That LR costs the same as the Fex and is exactly as fast. It's definitively better off shooting at infantry than at a Fex but in a 1:1, the Fex isn't any worse.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 09:42
The LR costs less than the fex with mentioned venom cannon by quite a bit.
(About 30 points less). This is of course a raw price comparison, and doesn't take into account how hard it is to actually shake said tank with a venom cannon.

The LR is 3-4 wide depending on if your on sponsons or not and 4-5 inches long depending on if your hitting the track or not.

That means if you scatter 5" or so you'll probably fail to hit with anything useful.
That means less than 8" of scatter typically with a 33% hit chance base. Thats something like 15 out of 36 possibilities or 41% to roll eight or more.

So if we want to *roughly* look at it were seeing something like one shot with a 33% chance of hitting direct and a 59% chance of staying in a useful position, then you've got a 33% chance of damaging it and something like a 95% chance of preventing it from firing. Something like 31%, roughly.

I'll need to check that math when I wake up later.

big squig
21-01-2010, 09:57
You're also forgetting that guard can order to take down MCs. I played with my bugs today against guard. First turn a missile team knocked 3 wounds off my 200pt carnifex. A heavy bolter and multi-laser from a chimera right after and I failed one save. Dead carnifex.

I remember when the carnifex was supposed to be the living engine of destruction that was able to withstand tremendous amounts of damage. What happened? T6 and a 3+ save isn't all that great, especially for 160pts. It's harder to take down plague marines. When did we get to the place where hive tyrants are tougher than carnifexes? A carnifex should be really hard to drop, and it should be built for attacking tanks and bunkers, but not infantry.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 10:01
The fex is just a unit the codex crapped out on. Carnifex weren't really good at attacking tanks in the last codex cause they were way too slow and they haven't gotten any better at it. I suppose the tyrannofex is supposed to be the new carnifex but with worse strength, less attacks, and only using guns.

genestealer_baldric
21-01-2010, 10:07
its a sad fact that i ahave far far far to many nids to start with but in the new codex due to dropping and screwing up most old good units my armys were based on iam now going to have spend around 200 to get them up to a competative standard again and i am not sure i want to spend that for somthing mediocre at best.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 10:09
I bought a squad of gargoyles and a trygon and thats enough for me. I can make it work but there's nothing else worth buying anew for me. All my carnifex are basically shelved now, which sucks because I liked my CC ones.

genestealer_baldric
21-01-2010, 10:13
I bought a squad of gargoyles and a trygon and thats enough for me. I can make it work but there's nothing else worth buying anew for me. All my carnifex are basically shelved now, which sucks because I liked my CC ones.

Yep Carnifexs R.I.P

the only shock of them getting somthing right was biovores at the expensive of almost everything else

Souleater
21-01-2010, 10:16
I *think* the idea is that regeneration will compensate for lack of options to go for INV Saves, T7 or 2+.

My personal opinion is that it will not.

I find it odd that what was once the toughest creature to kill in the game (T10, 2D6 save, possibility for 4+ INV) is now easier to kill than the MCs put on the table by my glass cannon Dark Eldar :wtf:

I don't understand why the price tag went up so far without an increase in wounds to match things like the T-Fex and Tervigon which are pretty much the same size.

As it is we are left with an apparent case of 'buy moar modelz, peeple!'

azimaith
21-01-2010, 10:21
I *think* the idea is that regeneration will compensate for lack of options to go for INV Saves, T7 or 2+.

My personal opinion is that it will not.

I find it odd that what was once the toughest creature to kill in the game (T10, 2D6 save, possibility for 4+ INV) is now easier to kill than the MCs put on the table by my glass cannon Dark Eldar :wtf:

I don't understand why the price tag went up so far without an increase in wounds to match things like the T-Fex and Tervigon which are pretty much the same size.

I think the obvious answer is the same as spinefists, because people had a bunch of them already.

Ulrig
21-01-2010, 10:24
Going to try to stamp out a couple games this weekend before I even consider new models.

All the head scratching options (or lack there of) really makes you wonder if they were high while play testing.

I understand GW needs to make money via selling new models.
Fine....I was going to buy the new stuff.

The treatment to the fex....is nearly too much for me to over look.
I agree it was too cheap before....but WTF? The staple of the nid army for ever got ever so screwed.
I never played nidzilla, I always played what I feel was a balanced army. But I own 7 fexs, 2 of which are 2nd edition. The other 5 are fully magnetized new ones.

I think I am just going to buy more ork stuff and shelve my nids for....a while

Souleater
21-01-2010, 10:24
I think the obvious answer is the same as spinefists, because people had a bunch of them already.

Yes...I said that in the bit of my post you missed out :D

Fortunately I kept my devourer arms when I built my spinegaunts so I'll simply swap them out. One advantage of never having finished painting the army!

Orktavius
21-01-2010, 10:38
I don't think the damage to Fex's is as bad as you imagine...that being said I do think the base cost is about 20 points to high. Fact is though, they needed to be toned back, T7 5 wounds with 2+ armor and regen was just to ridiculous. Fact is they were just fine at tank hunting before, especially once 5th ed brought out the run rule. Only thing they couldn't catch was fast vehicles since everything else would have to forgo shooting to ensure it got far enough away and that's almost as good as killing it.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2010, 10:58
First of all, I too think that the Fex is too expensive. With that out of the way...


The LR costs less than the fex with mentioned venom cannon by quite a bit.


I was under the impression that a Fex could get a 2 shot S10 gun. The LR costs 37 naked Guardsmen, how far off is the Fex with such a weapon? Or is that the VC?


You're also forgetting that guard can order to take down MCs.


Actually, I'm not, as tanks do not benefit from orders. I'm sure the Fex is overpriced but using the example of three missiles causing three wounds to show that he goes down just like that is anecdotal evidence. Really, I can kill a Land Raider for the same points as that heavy weapon squad. Or Charlton He'stan. Or 250 points of MANZs. It is physically impossible to kill the Fex outright with just three shots. Can he get FNP? That'll help a bit with the multilasers.

genestealer_baldric
21-01-2010, 11:02
I was under the impression that a Fex could get a 2 shot S10 gun. The LR costs 37 naked Guardsmen, how far off is the Fex with such a weapon?

No the fex cant another new MC (tyrofex i think) costs around 270 and has that gun assualt 2 str10 ap 4

Souleater
21-01-2010, 11:05
No the fex cant another new MC (tyrofex i think) costs around 270 and has that gun assualt 2 str10 ap 4

The old VC had those stats on a fex.

The new VC is S9, Blast.

Worsle
21-01-2010, 11:07
With the large S10 gun and a S5 large blast template, they tyrannofex comes to 265. The vemon cannon is only s9, if you are building a shooting MC army the tyrannofex is a great buy. It is slightly over costed but with a 2 shot S10 gun and a S5 large blast it is a very useful thing to have with you.

ashc
21-01-2010, 11:22
Fact is though, they needed to be toned back, T7 5 wounds with 2+ armor and regen was just to ridiculous.

I keep seeing this bit being brought up, but whilst true, its a classic case where GW have seen a problem and then thrown the baby out of the bathwater. And then teared the whole bath out. Then demolished the house said bathroom was in. Just to come up with an 'answer' :rolleyes: to the aforementioned 'problem'.

GW1: People keep taking these souped up carnifexes, multiples of them!

GW2: Well then lets increase its points cost.

GW1: And remove its options that lets it do that.

GW2: And then give it completely new options that are pretty craptacular.

GW1: And then make something else for the book with a new model that is far better.

GW2: Awesome, thats the Carnifex problem sorted!

:rolleyes:

azimaith
21-01-2010, 11:23
First of all, I too think that the Fex is too expensive. With that out of the way...

I was under the impression that a Fex could get a 2 shot S10 gun. The LR costs 37 naked Guardsmen, how far off is the Fex with such a weapon? Or is that the VC?
The old fex had a two shot strength 10 weapon. I figured you were talking about the new fex after the quote was referencing someone getting two fexes pinged by one battle cannon round (which seems like a waste of a battle cannon honestly)

The new fex gets one strength 9 blast small blast for 185 points. A Leman Russ isn't 37 naked guardsmen, but apparently you were talking about a land raider there which is weird because I you were just talking about a battle cannon and skewing results.

In any case if you want that S10 2 shot BS3 gun you're going to pay more than a land raiders cost to buy it.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2010, 11:37
The old fex had a two shot strength 10 weapon.


Wow, that's extremely weird, especially in the light of your last sentence where you give an idea of what exactly this gun costs because just a couple of days I watched a game at my store with the new Nids, and that Fex had something akin to a Manticore gun, 2 shots, S10. Of course the guys could have gotten it wrong.



The new fex gets one strength 9 blast small blast for 185 points.


Okay, that's certainly not so good.



A Leman Russ isn't 37 naked guardsmen


I don't have my codex here but I'm very certain that it cost the exact same 185 points. Remember, we were using an LR with the classic loadout, hull LC + sponson HB's.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 11:45
Wow, that's extremely weird, especially in the light of your last sentence where you give an idea of what exactly this gun costs because just a couple of days I watched a game at my store with the new Nids, and that Fex had something akin to a Manticore gun, 2 shots, S10. Of course the guys could have gotten it wrong.
The carnifex can get a s9 venom cannon with the afformentioned blast, the tyrannofex, which is a different MC that costs as much as an LR can get a S10 AP4 2 shot gun called a rupture cannon, which has the same Manticore profile (other than the blasts obviously) so that was probably a proxy. If he was using said gun on a regular fex at a regular fex cost he would have to have been using the old codex.



Okay, that's certainly not so good.

Yeah, it doesn't always glance this time at least, it has no penalty against opened topped and is -1 damage rolls for anything else.



I don't have my codex here but I'm very certain that it cost the exact same 185 points. Remember, we were using an LR with the classic loadout, hull LC + sponson HB's.
Looking at my Ig codex its 185 with the sponsons and H LC. Thats also got a lot more guns than I was factoring into my post. So basically a LR with a battle cannon, two heavy bolters, and a lascannon is the same price as a carnifex with a one shot S9 AP4 small blast weapon at BS3 that re-rolls ones in close combat.

Honestly, I'll take the LR (or at least the equivalent for nids, a trygon. :rolleyes:)

squeekenator
21-01-2010, 11:46
Wow, that's extremely weird, especially in the light of your last sentence where you give an idea of what exactly this gun costs because just a couple of days I watched a game at my store with the new Nids, and that Fex had something akin to a Manticore gun, 2 shots, S10. Of course the guys could have gotten it wrong.

Chances are it was a proxy for a Tyrannofex, considering they don't have any official model and converting up something that big is going to take a while. Carnifexes can't get S10 guns any more.

EDIT: Damn ninjas.

genestealer_baldric
21-01-2010, 11:49
Chances are it was a proxy for a Tyrannofex, considering they don't have any official model and converting up something that big is going to take a while. Carnifexes can't get S10 guns any more.

EDIT: Damn ninjas.

iam planning on using my barbed hireodule as it because they are very simmliar

Souleater
21-01-2010, 11:49
Anybody else noticed that the other army's tactica threads don't seem too fussed about the new nids?

Has nothing really changed from the enemy POV or are we just not that much of a threat?

genestealer_baldric
21-01-2010, 11:50
nope we are at our most deadly, average at best now.

Lord Solar Plexus
21-01-2010, 12:42
The carnifex can get a s9 venom cannon with the afformentioned blast, the tyrannofex, which is a different MC that costs as much as an LR can get a S10 AP4 2 shot gun called a rupture cannon


Ah, I see. Thanks for elaborating. Seems rather expensive indeed.



Honestly, I'll take the LR (or at least the equivalent for nids, a trygon. :rolleyes:)

I still think you are only comparing their damage output in the shooting phase. In terms of resilience, the Fex is still better. That Russ will probably cause a little over one wound per turn if it stays still and isn't shaken. Once - if - the Fex gets close, it's pretty much game over for the Russ. Of course I have to say 'if' - there can be no guarantee, just as there is no guarantee that the Russ will be able to shoot unmolested for four turns. As I said, the Fex is probably overcosted but it does make up for decreased ranged offensive power with better resilience and CC prowess, at least partially.

azimaith
21-01-2010, 12:51
The problem I have with the fex more than the cost is that it doesn't have a well defined role. I mean you have trygons, mawlocs, trygon primes, and well, almost everything thats good at killing troops. You have a tyrannofex and a zoanthrope with good ranged guns, then you come to the carnifex whose not fast enough to really run down a tank and give it a good savaging who has relatively poor guns (which of course make him slower as he's not running) whose not as good at killing infantry as said trygon.

If a carnifex was something that would drop in a spore pod and smash up a tank with a 12" charge or the like for something like 185-200 points then fine, its good at crushing tanks, but right now its sort of pointless. Strength 9 2d6 and Strength 6(or 7 with furious charge) 2d6 aren't that huge of a difference against the majority of vehicles. Certainly against a leman russ a flying tyrant or trygon will obliterate one far better than any carnifex can ever manage simply due to catching it fast.
(A trygon with adrenals which is how I run mine, will have 7 attacks, re-rolling all misses at strength 7 2d6 against the av 10 rear armor of the russ making the carnifex rather moot.)


With the russ you at least have a good chance of nailing someone a couple times a turn and theres not much your opponent can do to stop the leman russ from picking and choosing who it blasts, while with a fex you don't really have a good chance of entering close combat in my experience, much with less one that you need a carnifex to kill.

Most of the fex upgrades are rather pointless as they don't help you get within range to actually use them. I've seen some success in using carnifex to crack tanks but only in multiples so you can drop one fex on the tank and one on its path of likely retreat, which of course results in you spending way more than you need to.