PDA

View Full Version : The Doom of Malan'tai



Pages : [1] 2

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 02:07
I got around to testing this out in a game tonight and I have to admit I was fairly impressed with its performance. It does rely heavily on the favour of the dice Gods (but so much does in 40k), but when it works well it really does seem to make a large dent in the enemy.

Has anyone else tested out this creature yet and if so, what have your experiences been like so far?

Lord Malorne
20-01-2010, 02:20
Was it do?

Voss
20-01-2010, 02:59
If it exists at the beginning of the shooting phase (every shooting phase) people around it die. Then it kills them some more.

Then people expend an inordinate amount of high strength weaponry, hoping for a failed invulnerable save while the rest of the army gets closer and closer.

cotillion989
20-01-2010, 03:05
Yeah, the fact that it HAS to be brought down asap, and has a 3+ invuln is nice.

Netfreakk
20-01-2010, 05:15
But you also need to be 6" from enemies at all times or he's kinda a gimp.

Voss
20-01-2010, 05:56
Happily, he can take a spore pod...

Avatar of the Eldar
20-01-2010, 06:20
Happily, he can take a spore pod...

His own, private limo pod. No riding in coach with a brood of lesser Zoans. They're sooo pedestrian.

Lyonator
20-01-2010, 06:39
Gah, units like this make me start new armies!
(Especially since other than him, I have almost zero desire to ever play bugs)

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 12:51
The fact it takes wounds from firing it's main weapon might put people off, but the fact it's AP1 lanrge blast and you gain a wound back from each one you do score make it appealing at the same time. After trying it out I was pretty impressed, but I'll have to monitor it over more games to find a fairer overall assessment.

TheShadowCow
20-01-2010, 13:12
It's something almost every Tyranid list can benefit from, simply because you really can just throw it at your opponent and, short of running away, it's something that he *has* to deal with, else the bodies start piling up and the threat only increases from there.


In that respect, he's sort of like Deathleaper. It has a certain sort of list where it can excel, but at the same time it offers so much useful tech that it's goo no matter where you use him. The Swarmlord could qualify here as well, but for his monumental cost :p Good tech for compeative lists is, at it's best, cheap yet effective.

Abaddonshand
20-01-2010, 15:38
But you also need to be 6" from enemies at all times or he's kinda a gimp.

Actually, as his at the begining of every shooting phase steal wounds ability isn't a shooting attack, he can use it in combat...

tazguy95
20-01-2010, 16:33
Yeah... THE DOOOOOOOOM!!!! It is probably one of the best units that I have ever played with. It's always groovy to pod him next to multiple grot units. :)

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 16:41
Actually, as his at the begining of every shooting phase steal wounds ability isn't a shooting attack, he can use it in combat...

This also helps to keep it alive in CC if it's caught on it's own without back up. getting passed a 3++ save isn't always the easiest of things either, look how nasty thunder hammer termies have become. Granted they come in greater numbers, but sometimes even killing 1 can be a chore. Effectively you need to kill 4 TH Termies to get rid of a Doom even without it absorbing wounds.

fubukii
20-01-2010, 17:30
just keep the doom away from powerfists in combat and he should last a while.

Zanzibarthefirst
20-01-2010, 18:56
Does anyone have any suggestions for making Doom? I was thinking a normal zoanthrope and then tryogn to make some sort of spine out of carapce pieces that cover up parts of the exposed cranium and maybe some spines from the Mawloc kit

Voss
20-01-2010, 19:01
I was pondering the idea of a venomthrope body and a zoanthrope head with some small talons replacing the lash whips, but I was put off by the amount of hacksaw work involved. The new metal models aren't very conversion friendly- I was expecting some things to be separate pieces, but instead they're fused to the main body.

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 19:12
I made mine from the following:

warrior torso
Warior abdomen and tail glued on backwards
Spare jaw from warriors
Spare Mawloc top head plate
Spare Mawloc spines (the things you put on the back)
Mawloc abdomen plate (for underside of the head)
Trygon spikes (in place of arms and legs)
Some spare toxin sacs and adrenal gland (for bulging brain bits on the underside of the head)

Ysing the Mawloc head plate makes the head larger and more menacing that that of a regular Zoanthrope also and the entire thing is much taller than a regular Zoanthrope in general so it really stands out from them.

I've yet to finish off with some green stuff, but it's usable as it is. I hope that helps. Looking at bits sites you can make the whole thing for about £10 and still have loads of spines and spikes left over for other things, but if you've already bought a Trygon kit (or 2 if you're like me) your should already have eough spines and spikes as it is.

MystheDevourer
20-01-2010, 19:17
I got around to testing this out in a game tonight and I have to admit I was fairly impressed with its performance. It does rely heavily on the favour of the dice Gods (but so much does in 40k), but when it works well it really does seem to make a large dent in the enemy.

Has anyone else tested out this creature yet and if so, what have your experiences been like so far?

I have tested it. The only thing an Tact squad based SM army has on it is Meltas and power fists. Other then that it will take hits like no others. My doomed survied from turn 2 when it dropped till the end of the game on turn 5 with 8 wounds still.

MystheDevourer
20-01-2010, 19:20
If it exists at the beginning of the shooting phase (every shooting phase) people around it die. Then it kills them some more.

Then people expend an inordinate amount of high strength weaponry, hoping for a failed invulnerable save while the rest of the army gets closer and closer.

Exactly how you should p[lay him. That is what the new codex is about. Swarming over the opponet.

Zanzibarthefirst
20-01-2010, 19:30
some pics would be good pretty please

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 20:20
Once I find the charger for my camera I'll grab a few pics :)

Bookwrak
20-01-2010, 20:28
Here's an early WIP of my Doom. When I get the pieces, I'm going to cut off the tendril he's mounted on and then mount him on a wraithlord base, looming over a prone guardian, with wire and water effects used to show him literally sucking the life energy out of the eldar.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/bookwrack/Warhammer/doom004.jpg

This is another one I saw that is using parts from the Trygon kit.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/bookwrack/Warhammer/Zoey1_by_halosnachtariff.jpg

LonelyPath
20-01-2010, 20:30
Cool conversion and your ideas for it sound great :)

Shadowfax
20-01-2010, 21:05
Anybody tested out the gimmick of attaching a Tyranid Prime to The Doom? Would he not benefit from The Doom's majority toughness versus shooting, while also providing an ID buffer and a CC discouragement?

Not the kind of thing I would have fun doing, but it would make The Doom even more of a pain in the ass to remove.

Mosedeke
20-01-2010, 21:12
Can't, since ICs can never be attached to units that can only ever consist of one model.

Bookwrak
20-01-2010, 21:28
The other Doom model just got some updates. Looks like if you have any trygon bits to spare, that's the conversion to field.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/bookwrack/Warhammer/Zoey4_by_halosnachtariff.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/bookwrack/Warhammer/Zoey5_by_halosnachtariff.jpg

GrogDaTyrant
20-01-2010, 21:44
I see the Doom as a potentially devestating Gimmick... but little beyond that. While many Nid lists will definitely benefit from a Doom in a Drop Spore (I doubt you'll ever see him without one), I think ultimately the true measure of it's ability will be against specific armies. For instance, unless you can pop some transports and have him land near the occupants, his effectiveness against a Mech list probably won't be so impressive.

Also, I believe he'll be most effective against MEQ or other low-count elite armies. Especially for the armies that will have to rely on expending their valuable anti-monster firepower to deal with him.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 14:00
I walked my Doom the other night and while he got shot at a few times, my opponent seemed more insterested in the 3 broods of Stealers and the Trygon/Mawloc combo that all appeared on turn 2, heh.

I will make up a couple of Mycetic Spores at some point though.

JonnyX
21-01-2010, 17:46
Dont underestimate the 3+, in my last game the doom of mal got 21 3+ inv saves and passed all of them from thunder hammers -_-. Took out lots of guard squads and overall good for points if u can roll well

ArtificerArmour
21-01-2010, 18:24
cant he be instakilled by st8+ though?

pootleberry
21-01-2010, 19:30
It's pretty nasty but the Instant Death does stop it pretty quickly even though it does have a 3+ invulnerable. It could be though that the guy I was playing against can't make saves for toffee.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 19:43
S8 can instakill it if that weapon gets passed that 3++ save. I'd like to see Demolishers target my Doom as of next week, by then I should have a couple of Mycetic Spores up and ready.

Since it killed over 20 marines in 1 game, it shows that it is something the opponent has to kill ASAP or he's in trouble..

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 19:51
I see the Doom as a potentially devestating Gimmick... but little beyond that. While many Nid lists will definitely benefit from a Doom in a Drop Spore (I doubt you'll ever see him without one), I think ultimately the true measure of it's ability will be against specific armies. For instance, unless you can pop some transports and have him land near the occupants, his effectiveness against a Mech list probably won't be so impressive.

Also, I believe he'll be most effective against MEQ or other low-count elite armies. Especially for the armies that will have to rely on expending their valuable anti-monster firepower to deal with him.

The Doom effcts the Units IN the transport.

reason being is simply because the unit is within 6 inches of the doom. You also measure this from the Doom to the Hull of said transport. Since its not a Attack of ANY KIND it can affect units in Transports.


I walked my Doom the other night and while he got shot at a few times, my opponent seemed more insterested in the 3 broods of Stealers and the Trygon/Mawloc combo that all appeared on turn 2, heh.

I will make up a couple of Mycetic Spores at some point though.

Ahhh confusing people's Target Priority. That is waht Tyranids excel in IMHO

Shanyra
21-01-2010, 20:21
Sadly i have no tyranid player in the area (would love to see that new codex in action) - however, the doom rules from what i heard need a bit more clarification - shoot into transports, in melee? without specifically stating that in the rules it sounds almost too good to be true. :)
Hope there will be a faq for it somedays.

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 20:30
Sadly i have no tyranid player in the area (would love to see that new codex in action) - however, the doom rules from what i heard need a bit more clarification - shoot into transports, in melee? without specifically stating that in the rules it sounds almost too good to be true. :)
Hope there will be a faq for it somedays.

Spirit Leech does not shoot. It isnot considered an attack but a Special ability that does the effect. so it can affect units in transports. I have a link on the very discussion.a guy names Ferro puts up a airtight argument.

Also you can call GW hot line and ask the question personally. I have heard of cases that people were told that that is indeed how it works.

Shanyra
21-01-2010, 20:49
Hey hey, no reason to go all defensive, it just seemed a bit..odd to me. :) The rule "by the word" reading was never my place nor the place of my cogamers, we try to handle that on a "alright, lets do it like this" basis.
Was just wondering about it...and like i said no nids in the area. ;)
As for hotlines...


I have heard of cases that people were told that that is indeed how it works.

Does that mean there were also cases they were told the opposite? :D

The transport thing is fine by me, the shooting - uhm, special ability usage in melee was something I wondered about - hence the hope for a FAQ in the future - or more precise rules (GWs speciality ;) )

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 21:00
Hey hey, no reason to go all defensive, it just seemed a bit..odd to me. :) The rule "by the word" reading was never my place nor the place of my cogamers, we try to handle that on a "alright, lets do it like this" basis.
Was just wondering about it...and like i said no nids in the area. ;)
As for hotlines...



Does that mean there were also cases they were told the opposite? :D

The transport thing is fine by me, the shooting - uhm, special ability usage in melee was something I wondered about - hence the hope for a FAQ in the future - or more precise rules (GWs speciality ;) )

Sorry I have had problems with the Rulings on the Doom for a bit.

As far as the power goes its just considered a Psychic Ability so when ever you can use a psychic ability I guess you can use it. I printed out the Psychic Power Cards and it says nothing that it can not do that. Just not on your opponets turn I believe is the case.

Bestial Fury
21-01-2010, 21:01
Hmmm and here I was trying to not use JOTWW and multiple rune priests.

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 21:05
Hmmm and here I was trying to not use JOTWW and multiple rune priests.

Just use a melta. But hey if you take those that means more food for my mawloc ^-^

Smiles.
21-01-2010, 21:12
This thing is completely broken, its not just a time waster, it completely wipes out any non-vehicle model within 6 inches, which depending on the board size, points value, and the army you're up against, is surprisingly effective, if your opponent has one, spread far and wide.

I've played against 'nids using this model with my space wolves and i lost nearly an entire unit of blood claws, the Doom ended up on 10 wounds and I had no chance of winning, I today saw it wipe out another full squad of grey hunters and soak up the attention of a vindicator and 2 rhinos until it eventually died.

try 900 points as oppose to 90.

ArtificerArmour
21-01-2010, 21:17
This thing is completely broken, its not just a time waster, it completely wipes out any non-vehicle model within 6 inches, which depending on the board size, points value, and the army you're up against, is surprisingly effective, if your opponent has one, spread far and wide.

I've played against 'nids using this model with my space wolves and i lost nearly an entire unit of blood claws, the Doom ended up on 10 wounds and I had no chance of winning, I today saw it wipe out another full squad of grey hunters and soak up the attention of a vindicator and 2 rhinos until it eventually died.

try 900 points as oppose to 90.

Good. Thats all I saw to an army who can "take off" models with JotWW :p

Shadowfax
21-01-2010, 21:20
Yeah, it's pretty fitting that a SW player was making that post.

You can wipe out a 600 point Carnifex brood with one psychic power, bro. Save your whining.

Bassline
21-01-2010, 21:26
I do not think its that broken. Not as broken as 100% mech armies... suck it up marines

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 21:38
This thing is completely broken, its not just a time waster, it completely wipes out any non-vehicle model within 6 inches, which depending on the board size, points value, and the army you're up against, is surprisingly effective, if your opponent has one, spread far and wide.

I've played against 'nids using this model with my space wolves and i lost nearly an entire unit of blood claws, the Doom ended up on 10 wounds and I had no chance of winning, I today saw it wipe out another full squad of grey hunters and soak up the attention of a vindicator and 2 rhinos until it eventually died.

try 900 points as oppose to 90.

So tell me what effect he will have on an Armored Company for IG?

When you get the awnser get back to me.

Now yes the Doom is WAY to cheap but hey I am not complaining afterall I play 'nids. It should be the price of the carnie or the Trygon but I dont care for 140 points I get a Pod with Cluster Spines and the Doom. I am a happy individual.

tazguy95
21-01-2010, 21:42
http://trollforged.com/images/ss_overlay_Alien_Bocks_Brain_paint.jpg

Here's something I found...:p

Mosedeke
21-01-2010, 21:45
Taz, that's a great find. I almost want to buy it, despite spending last night converting one of my old edition Thropes into the Doom.

loveless
21-01-2010, 21:54
Just use a melta. But hey if you take those that means more food for my mawloc ^-^

This - combined with your avatar - is terrifying.

Well done.

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 22:05
http://trollforged.com/images/ss_overlay_Alien_Bocks_Brain_paint.jpg

Here's something I found...:p

I would cut off the head and replace it with a trygon head.

Netfreakk
21-01-2010, 22:11
Can't, since ICs can never be attached to units that can only ever consist of one model.

Really? could you provide the pg #? I don't have my BRB with me atm so I can't check it.

But if that's the case how come ICs can join other ICs? Is that just a special thing for ICs?

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 22:16
Really? could you provide the pg #? I don't have my BRB with me atm so I can't check it.

But if that's the case how come ICs can join other ICs? Is that just a special thing for ICs?

Pg 48 I believe is the one everyone says to go to.

As for ICs, cince they can join others they can join together.

LonelyPath
21-01-2010, 22:20
After going through the enries in this thread since my last post and rereading Spirit Leech I realised I was also playing it wrong. I was only using it in my own shooting phases when I could also have been using it in my opponents!

To clarify though. Spirit Leech is automatic, it does not act as a psychic power (no test) and neither is it a shooting attack, it just happens and effect all enemy non-vehicle units and is most definately not an attack of any sort. Also, seeing how enemy units in transports within 6" are individual units to the vehicle around them, I'd say they would be effected also, but I didn't have the opportuity to try that the othr night, they were kind enough to pop out of their transports to take a few more shots at me before I moved up to them.

However, I do feel it is a little cheaper than it should be. If they'd popped on another point of toughness and added 50 or 60 points to it, I'd still have a lace for it in my list. However, at around 140 or 150 points and T4, it'd not be used very much at all, 3++ save or not.

Meriwether
21-01-2010, 22:56
It's pretty devastating against static gunline elements of mixed armies -- such as they are...

Hicks
21-01-2010, 23:20
He sure seems very powerfull, even if he only lives for one turn, I can see him doing lots of damage. I was going to use lots of outflanking stealers with broodlords, the Doom in a pod would really act as a nuke if everything enters the board at the right time!

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 23:21
This - combined with your avatar - is terrifying.

Well done.

I love Yoru. It makes me look all innocent. Which is definitely not true

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 23:23
However, I do feel it is a little cheaper than it should be. If they'd popped on another point of toughness and added 50 or 60 points to it, I'd still have a lace for it in my list. However, at around 140 or 150 points and T4, it'd not be used very much at all, 3++ save or not.

So let me get this straight. being able for at least 1 FULL turn (Turns are you and your opponents combined) wipe out upwards of 100 - 1000 points of models is nto worth it? I have killed 2 FULL squads of termies in that time span! 90 points MORE then make up for it IMHO T4 or not!

Smiles.
21-01-2010, 23:33
I apologise if that sounded like a whine, that wasn't the attention...

This model is amazingly effective, and has a very low point cost, I'm not denying that JOTWW is also over powered, but to use it, I need either a rune priest or Njal, the Rune priest is 100 points + 20 for runic armour and can I'm just presuming here that alot of armies can nullify it, and then have to fail an initiative test, unfortunatly for 'nid players, a carnifex has a very low initiative, but anything important on the table should pass the test easily, also, a run priest and even Njal are quite easy to take out... where as the Doom has a 3+ invun, and stacks wounds for every unit it kills, and 9/10 it will be in range of the intended unit after dropping in and there is no way to avoid this nasty attack apart from invuns, no normal saves, its not a psychic attack so cannot be dispelled, and its a morale test on 3 dice, I can't remember how exactly as I haven't been back into Warhammer very long, but I know for a fact a 'nid player can lower the leadership of a model at the start of a game, so any model he intends to effect will be leadership 9, so on 3 dice, thats an average roll, then presumaby the Doom will be on around 7+ wounds.

Maybe not 900 :P but this model should definatly cost more, or there should be at least some way to overpower the effect.

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 23:36
I apologise if that sounded like a whine, that wasn't the attention...

This model is amazingly effective, and has a very low point cost, I'm not denying that JOTWW is also over powered, but to use it, I need either a rune priest or Njal, the Rune priest is 100 points + 20 for runic armour and can I'm just presuming here that alot of armies can nullify it, and then have to fail an initiative test, unfortunatly for 'nid players, a carnifex has a very low initiative, but anything important on the table should pass the test easily, also, a run priest and even Njal are quite easy to take out... where as the Doom has a 3+ invun, and stacks wounds for every unit it kills, and 9/10 it will be in range of the intended unit after dropping in and there is no way to avoid this nasty attack apart from invuns, no normal saves, its not a psychic attack so cannot be dispelled, and its a morale test on 3 dice, I can't remember how exactly as I haven't been back into Warhammer very long, but I know for a fact a 'nid player can lower the leadership of a model at the start of a game, so any model he intends to effect will be leadership 9, so on 3 dice, thats an average roll, then presumaby the Doom will be on around 7+ wounds.

Maybe not 900 :P but this model should definatly cost more, or there should be at least some way to overpower the effect.So tell me why dont you just S8 it to death???? think of it as a fleshy tank that MUST die and enjoy. Problem solved.

Smiles.
21-01-2010, 23:40
Thats besides the point, it affects any unit within 6 inches EVERY shooting phase and its almost completely unavoidable, so by the time you get to attempt to S8 it to death with anything, save for it stupidly assulting a unit, will be 2 shooting phases after deployment, if used correctly this is guarenteed to wipe out alot more than its points value, imo no model should be guarenteed to do that.

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 23:43
Thats besides the point, it affects any unit within 6 inches EVERY shooting phase and its almost completely unavoidable, so by the time you get to attempt to S8 it to death with anything, save for it stupidly assulting a unit, will be 2 shooting phases after deployment, if used correctly this is guarenteed to wipe out alot more than its points value, imo no model should be guarenteed to do that.

So you move 6" away the SECOND you can and your out of range. you only suffer the effect once. Questions? So you lose 10+ guys form the 3 squads around it? you can kill my Termagants in retaliation and call it a day :P

MistaGav
21-01-2010, 23:48
Hmm reading through it, does seem a little undercosted for what it can potentially do. I would say maybe 40 more pts but it does look pretty cool to field.

Although the fact it has instinctive behavior and no synapse means it's pretty vulnerable if left to do it's own thing. What would be the best way to get it into close combat or move it up the table quickly without getting damaged?

MystheDevourer
21-01-2010, 23:51
Hmm reading through it, does seem a little undercosted for what it can potentially do. I would say maybe 40 more pts but it does look pretty cool to field.

Although the fact it has instinctive behavior and no synapse means it's pretty vulnerable if left to do it's own thing. What would be the best way to get it into close combat or move it up the table quickly without getting damaged?
Remember it does not need Synapse to get its effect. Also it counts as in Synapse for the first turn its out.

Smiles.
22-01-2010, 00:02
I didn't realise you can only suffer this effect once, my point being, you can only move away 6" and then run d6, if in his next movement phase he moves 6" and then outrolls to run, he's caught you again, this was ofc before you said you can only suffer the effect once.

So he's not that scary then, but its still underpriced.

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 00:14
I didn't realise you can only suffer this effect once, my point being, you can only move away 6" and then run d6, if in his next movement phase he moves 6" and then outrolls to run, he's caught you again, this was ofc before you said you can only suffer the effect once.

So he's not that scary then, but its still underpriced.

Oh no it happens once every players turn RIGHT before the opponets shooting phase.

Yes he caught you BUT if you spread them out in lets say multiple directions then he can only get one unit then you can move the rest again next turn :P and continue to shoot. Tactics they work well!

The reason I thought this idea out is so that I could keep people from complaining to much you know.

LonelyPath
22-01-2010, 00:20
So let me get this straight. being able for at least 1 FULL turn (Turns are you and your opponents combined) wipe out upwards of 100 - 1000 points of models is nto worth it? I have killed 2 FULL squads of termies in that time span! 90 points MORE then make up for it IMHO T4 or not!

No need to get so excited, lol. I killed Sicarius, his command squads and host of other marines over the course of the game, ending on 7 wounds. And that was only using it in my shooting phases, heh.

And yes, moving away in different directions does help against the Doom, he's gotta head for the closest enemy unit. It's effect also happens at the very start of the shooting phase, before run moves are made.

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 00:29
And yes, moving away in different directions does help against the Doom, he's gotta head for the closest enemy unit. It's effect also happens at the very start of the shooting phase, before run moves are made.

Exactly. That is how he works.

Ravenous
22-01-2010, 00:49
Yeah, the fact that it HAS to be brought down asap, and has a 3+ invuln is nice.

Even better when you throw 1 or 2 primes with him in a spore. No worries about instant death.

Lostanddamned
22-01-2010, 00:57
A model to represent the Doom of Malan'tai?

A Zoanthrope, but with more armour, and a telltale circlet of spines.

I have just the fellow...

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 01:05
Even better when you throw 1 or 2 primes with him in a spore. No worries about instant death.As covered earlier you can not combine a IC with a unit that has a limit of one model

Lyonator
22-01-2010, 02:29
This model is almost single-handedly 'forcing' me to play nids.
Even if your opponent moves his troops away from Dr. Doom, that's totally worth it, if only to disrupt his game plan.
Looks like a great disruption tool, even if his ability doesn't have targets every time...
though odds are that it will.

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 04:18
This model is almost single-handedly 'forcing' me to play nids.
Even if your opponent moves his troops away from Dr. Doom, that's totally worth it, if only to disrupt his game plan.
Looks like a great disruption tool, even if his ability doesn't have targets every time...
though odds are that it will.

Thank you!

Most of the "big" creatures in the new codex are made to do that! Reason being is so your weaker armored creatures can make it to their destination. Mawlocs do the same thing. Albeit for about one turn >.>

hellhammer6
22-01-2010, 05:51
The problem I've come up with in playtesting is...

Does his life leach allow for cover saves. Common sense (to me) says no, becaue it is not a shooting attack... but devil's advocate says it does offer cover saves (vs a leadership based life leach?) anyway, this could be a huge problem until the FAQ.

Lyonator
22-01-2010, 06:25
Hell no.
Not a shooting attack, so why would cover even apply?
It occurs during the shooting phase, yes, but nowhere does it mention being a shooting attack.

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 07:29
The problem I've come up with in playtesting is...

Does his life leach allow for cover saves. Common sense (to me) says no, becaue it is not a shooting attack... but devil's advocate says it does offer cover saves (vs a leadership based life leach?) anyway, this could be a huge problem until the FAQ.

Invul Saves only, since it is NOT an attack

iantheace
22-01-2010, 08:33
Anyone who thinks this is not a shooting attack is pretty retarded :) In the main rulebook it says all psycic powers follow the rules for shooting unless otherwise stated. So this means you will get cover saves, and regardless of the 6 inch range you still need line of sight. You DEFINITELY cannot cast into vehicles.

Playing eldar you get used to the psychic power 'in's and outs' perfect examples are you cannot cast fortune on a unit inside a falcon. Doom specifically states you dont need line of sight. Mind war grants cover saves.

Any psycic power used in the shooting phase is a psychic shooting attack unless specifically stated otherwise in all honesty.

I know you may not like the idea of malantai being 'balanced' as alot of people follow the codex creep rather than the spirit of the game but that's simply how it is.

A problem you will also encounter is if you call and ask GW you will get 5 different people who will give you 5 different answers. Simple solution is unless you are trying to be a retard you follow the rules for a psychic shooting attack as its done in the shooting phase until an FAQ otherwise states.

Netfreakk
22-01-2010, 08:44
Spirit Leech is not a psychic power.... Why do people keep saying it is? It doesn't require a psychic test or any other type of condition other than being 6" from a unit.

Thus it is NOT a shooting attack and thus does not grant cover saves...

totgeboren
22-01-2010, 11:07
hmmm, I made one of these bad boys for a friend of mine who plays nids. It looks like I´m gonna regret making this gift, atleast when I play my Traitor IG.
My Chaos marines don't need to worry much, with their Ld 10 all over and enough powerfists and meltaguns to bring down a titan. :P

Barbarossa
22-01-2010, 12:30
Meh, a psycannon salvo will sort him out.

Come to think of it, this guy might be quite risky against Demonhunters. An Inq with two mystics can direct the Purgator squad to shoot it as soon as it shocks onto the field. No life leech for you, Dr. Doom!!

Killgore
22-01-2010, 12:34
A model to represent the Doom of Malan'tai?

A Zoanthrope, but with more armour, and a telltale circlet of spines.

I have just the fellow...



Im using Older Tyranid models to represent 'special' creatures

For example Iv just bought one of the older Tyranid Warriors with two Bone swords to be my Warrior Prime.

The old Zoanthrope would make a great Doom model to stand out.

LonelyPath
22-01-2010, 13:50
For those who insist Spirit Leech is a psychic power, let me explain and expad on the matter.

There is no psychic test to be made.
No rolling to hit, it hits automatically.
It happens automatically.
Under old rules this would put it as a minor psychic power, but since those no longer exist it cannot be on.
It's not described as a psychic power or any other form of attack.

Taking all of these factors into account, it cannot be a psychic power and instead is simply a aspect of the Doom's presence and being.

What does this mean? No armour or cover saves. Only invulnerable saves may be taken against it. This means that thunder hammer termies still have a good chance of surviving, but then they seem able to withstand a direct nuclear strike these days, lol.

@ Ravenous - Synapse no longer graces us with the pleasure of being immune to ID. Strange though, as I don't really miss that aspect of Synapse.

drmarco
22-01-2010, 13:57
For those who insist Spirit Leech is a psychic power, let me explain and expad on the matter.

There is no psychic test to be made.
No rolling to hit, it hits automatically.
It happens automatically.
Under old rules this would put it as a minor psychic power, but since those no longer exist it cannot be on.
It's not described as a psychic power or any other form of attack.

Taking all of these factors into account, it cannot be a psychic power and instead is simply a aspect of the Doom's presence and being.

What does this mean? No armour or cover saves. Only invulnerable saves may be taken against it. This means that thunder hammer termies still have a good chance of surviving, but then they seem able to withstand a direct nuclear strike these days, lol.

@ Ravenous - Synapse no longer graces us with the pleasure of being immune to ID. Strange though, as I don't really miss that aspect of Synapse.

For those who insist Spirit Leech isn't a psychic power, let me explain and expand on the matter.

Warlock powers are regarded as psychic powers in every respect. Conceal, enhance etc require no specific rolls, and occur in their relevant phases as and when required. They are constantly 'in effect'.

By your reasoning, just because it does not require a psychic test it's not a psychic power - there are clear precedents for this not being the case.

That said, I can see the argument from both standpoints. It basically boils down to the wording in the codex...What are the RAW?

Marco

drmarco
22-01-2010, 14:01
Let me also just add that a Tyranid Psychic powers Tactica is now available on the GW UK website, and states:

Doom of Malan'tai

Cataclysm: The Doom of Malan'tai is a unique creature, a Zoanthrope-like beast that wrought the utter devastation of an Eldar craftworld. It has but one psychic power, which enables it to unleash a large blast attack with a Strength equal to its remaining Wounds characteristic. What's especially nasty is that the Doom of Malan'tai gains an extra Wound for each one it inflicts on the enemy, so the Strength of its attacks quickly rises.

It pretty comprehensively explores each of the Psychic powers, and even has a PDF with the powers for ease of use in game...

Linky (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=0&aId=5100032a&start=1)

So everyone, please play nice....

Marco

Bassline
22-01-2010, 14:08
For those who insist Spirit Leech isn't a psychic power, let me explain and expand on the matter.

Warlock powers are regarded as psychic powers in every respect. Conceal, enhance etc require no specific rolls, and occur in their relevant phases as and when required. They are constantly 'in effect'.

By your reasoning, just because it does not require a psychic test it's not a psychic power - there are clear precedents for this not being the case.

That said, I can see the argument from both standpoints. It basically boils down to the wording in the codex...What are the RAW?

Marco

Every single psychic power is under 1 page in the new nid codex. GW has also pointed this out here (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=0&aId=5100032a&start=1).



Below you'll see a link to download a PDF containing all of these psychic powers, which you can print out and glue back to back to make handy reference card
tyranidpsychicpowercards.pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m550132a_tyranidpsychicpowercards.pdf)

One of his powers is psychic the Large SX AP1 Large Blast but his other stuff is not!

TheShadowCow
22-01-2010, 14:14
The Doom of Malan'tai has a section in its entry detailing the unique psychic powers it possesses. Only Cataclysm is listed. Spirit Leech is under general special rules, along with Absorb Life etc

LonelyPath
22-01-2010, 14:28
The Doom of Malan'tai has a section in its entry detailing the unique psychic powers it possesses. Only Cataclysm is listed. Spirit Leech is under general special rules, along with Absorb Life etc

I think you've described it best so far :)

drmarco
22-01-2010, 14:33
Agreed - Though it breaks my heart, for the reasons above (and not because of any other reasoning!) it's clear that Cataclysm is the Doom's ONLY psychic power...

Hopefully that draws a veil over this whole sorry affair...
:D

Marco

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 15:41
I do wish it had more psychic abilities but Cataclysm is still amazing.

Bassline
22-01-2010, 15:51
I do wish it had more psychic abilities but Cataclysm is still amazing.

Yes yes it is amazing but broken when at S9-10

LonelyPath
22-01-2010, 16:30
It's not always easy to get up to S9 though, you been to get at alot of the enemy with Leech or at least manage to get a couple of lucky shots with Cataclysm, wiping out a bunch of enemy models without having to get into assault range for Leech to work.

mattschuur
22-01-2010, 16:32
It can't affect units in transports either. For all intents and purposes a unit in a transport is not infantry but a vehicle as they are 1 unit not two. Only when the vehicle is destroyed do the occupants become infantry. P. 67, the note at bottom right says that a unit cant destroy a rhino with a lascannon and then shoot the occupants with their bolters, they must all shoot the rhino. The rhino, until it is destroyed, is the only thing you can affect.

So, why would the doom's power damage a unit inside a transport, while leaving the transport unharmed, when "Nothing" else in the game can? By that logic, any psychic power could be used the same way, but they can't. Whether its a shooting attack or a psychic attack or whatever, the only thing it can target is the vehicle, not the squad inside.

You can also look at it from another point, squads in transports don't take leadership tests for any reason. No psychic power or ability that causes units within X" to make a leadership check work on transported units. Again, why would the Doom be different? Answer: Unless it states it can affect embarked infantry units, it can't.

matt schuur

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 17:01
It can't affect units in transports either. For all intents and purposes a unit in a transport is not infantry but a vehicle as they are 1 unit not two. Only when the vehicle is destroyed do the occupants become infantry. P. 67, the note at bottom right says that a unit cant destroy a rhino with a lascannon and then shoot the occupants with their bolters, they must all shoot the rhino. The rhino, until it is destroyed, is the only thing you can affect.

So, why would the doom's power damage a unit inside a transport, while leaving the transport unharmed, when "Nothing" else in the game can? By that logic, any psychic power could be used the same way, but they can't. Whether its a shooting attack or a psychic attack or whatever, the only thing it can target is the vehicle, not the squad inside.

You can also look at it from another point, squads in transports don't take leadership tests for any reason. No psychic power or ability that causes units within X" to make a leadership check work on transported units. Again, why would the Doom be different? Answer: Unless it states it can affect embarked infantry units, it can't.

matt schuur
So tell me this. Where are the units? If you say in the transport then I win as a heads up. As for WHY this ability works this way it is because it does not:

1) Target the unit to deal damage
2) It does not attack the unit in anyway
3) It does effect them, look at the Parasite of Mortex ability "The sarge is acting wierd. . ."
4) If an Eldar Wraithlord can effect units in transports with its special ability then why can't something that does not do the first 2 things. let me go find the thread that had the argument and I will get back to you.

Feel free to find holes in my logic. Quote rules please.

Edit: Here is a lovely rule in the BRB

BRB pg 66 "If the player need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

Edit # 2: Here is that link. Ferro puts up an air-tight argument on WHY it would work. It gets good around page 5 and 6. he actually makes the over all point on page 1 though.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=4452

Enjoy all.

Bassline
22-01-2010, 17:10
It can't affect units in transports either. For all intents and purposes a unit in a transport is not infantry but a vehicle as they are 1 unit not two.

No they are not they are 2 units. If not they would have to fire at the same target as the rhino and would only be allowed to move 6 inches a turn as you can not move faster then your slowest model (Marines 6 Rhino 12). Also means with wound allocation could say do 12 shots, one goes onto the rhino and 11 onto the marines... makes no sense as they are TWO units NOT ONE.

Also if you can not take LD tests inside a transport (What is all this rule is really) then you can not fire plasma weapons in transports as it can cause a LD test. Do physic powers, use physic hoods and alot more.

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 17:34
No they are not they are 2 units. If not they would have to fire at the same target as the rhino and would only be allowed to move 6 inches a turn as you can not move faster then your slowest model (Marines 6 Rhino 12). Also means with wound allocation could say do 12 shots, one goes onto the rhino and 11 onto the marines... makes no sense as they are TWO units NOT ONE.

Also if you can not take LD tests inside a transport (What is all this rule is really) then you can not fire plasma weapons in transports as it can cause a LD test. Do physic powers, use physic hoods and alot more.

*hugs basseline* SOmeone else gets it as well ^-^

totgeboren
22-01-2010, 17:57
mmm, I dunno. This ability targets all units within 6" at the beginning of every shooting phase. Nothing can target a unit inside a transport, not guns, not psychic powers and not abilities.
Nothing so far in this game has been able to target a unit inside a transport, except the ability "The Sarge is acting strangely...", an ability in the same codex, and also an ability where they have spelled out exactly how it effects units inside transports.

Since it gives no extra rules that enable it to target something untargetable, I would say it can't target them.

Background-wise, maybe it should be able to effect units inside transports, since its essentially a passive ability that just drains mortals of their souls. I don't think some sheets of armour could save you from something like that. But rules-wise, I swing the other way. Also, its a horribly powerful units for its points, and its good if it has some weakness. Kinda like Lash of Submission is horribly powerful for its cost, but there is a counter. Just jump into a transport.

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 18:26
mmm, I dunno. This ability targets all units within 6" at the beginning of every shooting phase. Nothing can target a unit inside a transport, not guns, not psychic powers and not abilities.
Nothing so far in this game has been able to target a unit inside a transport, except the ability "The Sarge is acting strangely...", an ability in the same codex, and also an ability where they have spelled out exactly how it effects units inside transports.

Since it gives no extra rules that enable it to target something untargetable, I would say it can't target them.

Background-wise, maybe it should be able to effect units inside transports, since its essentially a passive ability that just drains mortals of their souls. I don't think some sheets of armour could save you from something like that. But rules-wise, I swing the other way. Also, its a horribly powerful units for its points, and its good if it has some weakness. Kinda like Lash of Submission is horribly powerful for its cost, but there is a counter. Just jump into a transport.

Ok lets consider this. A Wraithlord can provide "guidance" to troops in a Falcon. Now if you were to go to the page 9 on the link I provided a few posts agin you will see that someone compiled a list of actual abilities that have been able to do effect units in transports for a while (When was the last Witch Hunter codex again?)

Also the ability does not target, to target I would have to say this unit and this unit are being targeted by said ability, instead I just place a 6" radias ring around my Doom and say waht ever units in that ring is effected. I then call it good.

CplHicks
22-01-2010, 19:09
Well, I played against the Doom with my Vanilla Marines today. This bugger is bad. ^^ Unfortunately, the tatic of pitting enough firepower didn´t work so well as it held up good on all saves. And as I couldn´t do anything about its bloody ability two times, it had already killed a whole squad of Marines. And we didn´t play it that it could affect units in vehicles. Getting far enough out of way was no real option either due to his friends approaching my lines by this point.

So all in all it is a very valuable unit that feels undercosted so far. It was my first game against Tyranids so far so we´ll see how I will be able to cope with it in future games.

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 20:26
Well, I played against the Doom with my Vanilla Marines today. This bugger is bad. ^^ Unfortunately, the tatic of pitting enough firepower didn´t work so well as it held up good on all saves. And as I couldn´t do anything about its bloody ability two times, it had already killed a whole squad of Marines. And we didn´t play it that it could affect units in vehicles. Getting far enough out of way was no real option either due to his friends approaching my lines by this point.

So all in all it is a very valuable unit that feels undercosted so far. It was my first game against Tyranids so far so we´ll see how I will be able to cope with it in future games.

I like to think of it as a way to force you off that objective as I bear down on you with the reso ot my force. You vanilla marines have land raiders that are hard to kill as is why can I not have something like this. Though I do agree on the points about 130 would be about right.

totgeboren
22-01-2010, 20:39
Considering its cost, do you feel it plausible that it can effect units inside transports?

p.s. a Wraithlord is an Eldar Dreadnought. They can't cast any spells what so ever.

ObiWan
22-01-2010, 20:43
Remember it does not need Synapse to get its effect. Also it counts as in Synapse for the first turn its out.

I play 'nids but I am not aware of any rule stating this, can you provide a page reference please?

Edit: I mean the part about counting in synapse the first turn...

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 20:45
Considering its cost, do you feel it plausible that it can effect units inside transports?

p.s. a Wraithlord is an Eldar Dreadnought. They can't cast any spells what so ever.

Might of been a Wraithguard. I play SM and 'nids what would I know about eldar. . .

And yes it should be able to effect the units in a transport. Since it is there and you CAN move 12 inches away right after so I dont really see the problem if you pass the test you just right by it and shoot at it from a safe distance. If you fail you still drive by and still shoot albiet with less people >.>

Its very simple, you do an IB test at the begining of your turn correct? If your in Synapse it is counted as an auto pass. Page 33 of the Tyranid Codex states this. Since your pass the beggining of the movement phase after dropping in units you do not have to do this test. Also since it was in reserves and not on the table at the beggingin of the movement phase it would not need to roll for IB anyways.

Originally Posted by Sir Biscuit
In addition, I've gone through the codices and compiled a list of all abilities that can affect units in transports (and some wargear/specials I just happened to look at):

Chaos Daemons: I don't have the codex, but I think a fair assumption is "none".

Chaos Space Marines: None

Daemonhunters: None

Dark Eldar: None

Eldar: Doom

Imperial Guard: None

Necrons: None

Orks: None

Space Marines: None

Space Wolves: Storm Caller, for all the good it does you. Also, very important to note that units in transports benefit from Ragnar's War Howl.

Blood Angels: None, also note that Dante's mask does not affect units in transports.

Dark angels: None

Tau Empire: None

Tyranids: Only The Doom of Malan'tai's special power.

Witch Hunters: Hammer of the Witches

Also note that the Tyranid Unit: Parasite of Mortrex can affect units within transports that are outflanking. The codex specifically mentions this.

ObiWan
22-01-2010, 21:06
Its very simple, you do an IB test at the begining of your turn correct? If your in Synapse it is counted as an auto pass. Page 33 of the Tyranid Codex states this. Since your pass the beggining of the movement phase after dropping in units you do not have to do this test. Also since it was in reserves and not on the table at the beggingin of the movement phase it would not need to roll for IB anyways.


Mmmm, actually both things happen at the same time, reserves arriving at the start of the movement phase (pag 94 BBB) and IB check, so a lack of definition of the exact order of things is really required to be able to categorically state so, I agree that logic dictates it was in synapse/passed Ld test prior to arriving, but I feel there isn't a rule support for that conclusion.

I guess another logical (but not rule supported) explanation is that since they are just arriving, you can't check IB on them because there is no rule support for a reserve that has arrived to go back to reserve due lack of movement in case of Lurk IB or given the need to disembark on the M. Spore rule; unless it has a special rule like the swooping hawks or the mawloc (kind of).

ObiWan
22-01-2010, 21:22
Hey! I just found the rule backing up what is mentioned, in the same pag 94. "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserve."

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 21:42
Hey! I just found the rule backing up what is mentioned, in the same pag 94. "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserve."

Your awesome!

totgeboren
22-01-2010, 22:14
Something you failed to point out is that all abilities that can effect units inside transports have this clearly spelled out, either in their original rules, or in the FAQ following the release of their Codex.

I think you might have fallen pray for something called Confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_thinking).

You might very well be right, and the FAQ might very well say that it does work on units inside transports. But since the Codex does not allow this specific ability to circumvent the rules for effecting units inside transports, we will just have to wait until the FAQ comes out, and either allows this, or denies it.

The fact that the ability of the Parasite to effect units inside transports was clearly spelled out speaks against the idea that the Life Drain works on units in transports.
If they were thorough enough to clarify this, would they not have clarified the Spirit Leech of the Doom?

p.s. A Wraithguard is a mini-dreadnought. Its like calling a Librarian a Land Speeder. Your ignorance of the larger whole of the 40k game does you no good, and for me at least undermines your position.

LonelyPath
22-01-2010, 22:35
I do love the Doom (as I stated several times already), but until a FAQ appears saying whether it can or cannot effect units inside transports I am playing by the definition that it cannot effect them as they are normally uneffect by things. of course, if an FAW appears saying it can effect them, then it's extra feeding time :)

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 22:45
Something you failed to point out is that all abilities that can effect units inside transports have this clearly spelled out, either in their original rules, or in the FAQ following the release of their Codex.

I think you might have fallen pray for something called Confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_thinking).

You might very well be right, and the FAQ might very well say that it does work on units inside transports. But since the Codex does not allow this specific ability to circumvent the rules for effecting units inside transports, we will just have to wait until the FAQ comes out, and either allows this, or denies it.

The fact that the ability of the Parasite to effect units inside transports was clearly spelled out speaks against the idea that the Life Drain works on units in transports.
If they were thorough enough to clarify this, would they not have clarified the Spirit Leech of the Doom?

p.s. A Wraithguard is a mini-dreadnought. Its like calling a Librarian a Land Speeder. Your ignorance of the larger whole of the 40k game does you no good, and for me at least undermines your position.

So my question to you is since you have an infantismal ammount of more experience than I do, when those abilities came out what were the rulings on them until the FAQ?

Also explain to me how a Special ability does not effect an embarked unit under these cirumstances:

1) Not considered an attack in any form
2) It does not cause the unit to fall back, or make a morale test


Well you can take my ignorance as you will I honestly could care less. Now If you want to figure out what to belive follow the link I so kindly posted and listen to Ferro, I humbly apologize for not know everything about 40k as I am still new.

Since I have lost "credibility" I will withdraw after my questions have been awnsered with actual rules.

Netfreakk
22-01-2010, 22:49
2 things:
first:
5th ed Space marines psychic hoods don't effect psykers that are casting powers from a transport as the model is embarked and not there. Tough luck then.
2nd:
Dark Angel + DH psychic hoods state that any psychic powers that passed their test do a roll off. Are psykers in transports protected from this as they are "not" on the board as well or do they just get to try stopping it anyways without a target. If it's passive, then, doesn't Doom work in the same manner?

Did the Opponent pass a psychic test? (inside a transport) (which is a type of leadership test pg 50BRB "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal leadership test.") --> Yes -->follow instructions from special rule.

Which btw is doing a leadership test inside a vehicle (i'm sure someone already said that)


Is the unit in range of spirit leech?--> Yes --> follow instructions from special rule.

Bunnahabhain
22-01-2010, 22:50
It is an impressive unit, with alot of potential.

It has certainly spawned an impressive number of questions already...

MystheDevourer
22-01-2010, 23:01
It is an impressive unit, with alot of potential.

It has certainly spawned an impressive number of questions already...

Agreed. It will be annoying but it will allow me to have some arguments.

LonelyPath
22-01-2010, 23:01
What I find most funny about the Doom is that so many people were whining before the xodex came out that a Nid managed to devour most of a craftworld and that it eats souls. Suddenly the book comes out and the Doom is one of the favourite new toys everyone was given to play with.

totgeboren
22-01-2010, 23:33
So my question to you is since you have an infantismal ammount of more experience than I do, when those abilities came out what were the rulings on them until the FAQ?

Also explain to me how a Special ability does not effect an embarked unit under these cirumstances:

1) Not considered an attack in any form
2) It does not cause the unit to fall back, or make a morale test


Well you can take my ignorance as you will I honestly could care less. Now If you want to figure out what to belive follow the link I so kindly posted and listen to Ferro, I humbly apologize for not know everything about 40k as I am still new.

Since I have lost "credibility" I will withdraw after my questions have been awnsered with actual rules.

I'm sorry if I came across as condescending, but you must understand it doesn't sound very good in an argument when you admit you do not even know what the units and abilities you are comparing the Doom to are.

As to your two points above, my previous argument still stand. It doesn't matter if the ability is or is not an attack, or cause a morale test or not. No such things in this game can effect units in transports unless explicitly allowed.

Anyway, in the end it is up to you and your opponent how to play. Those I play with often use our own house rules when we feel they will improve the game.
But as I see it, to allow it to effect units in transports is making your own house rule, as a placeholder until the FAQ comes out.

LonelyPath
22-01-2010, 23:58
I don't have the BRB at hand, but I do know that while units in transports are immune to morale tests, are they also immune to leadership tests? In fact, are there any effects in the game that would cause a unit in a transport to be subjected to oe while they would normally be immune to morale tests? I see Morale and leadership tests as different as they are defined under different names.

I'm not all knowing about 40k either, especially the Eldar (one of m main blamlkk spots in my knowledge of 40k, lol).

Bunnahabhain
23-01-2010, 00:14
I don't have the BRB at hand, but I do know that while units in transports are immune to morale tests, are they also immune to leadership tests? In fact, are there any effects in the game that would cause a unit in a transport to be subjected to oe while they would normally be immune to morale tests? I see Morale and leadership tests as different as they are defined under different names.

I'm not all knowing about 40k either, especially the Eldar (one of m main blamlkk spots in my knowledge of 40k, lol).


It's not that they are immune to morale checks, it is just very hard to cause morale checks on units in transports, as they can't be targeted by stuff.

The simplest way is to take ( for example) a small Guard unit full of plasma guns, and wait for them to overheat badly. The unit can happily take 25% casualties like that, so if it fails a Ld check, should fall back, but the rules don't cover how to fall back from a transport. It's been explored in the rules forum, but simply put, it's a black hole.

Another possible one is psykers suffering perils of the warp, so causing 25% casualties that way, and there may be others too...

LonelyPath
23-01-2010, 03:14
Thanks for that :)

As I said above though, until a FAQ sas yaya pr nay, I am leaving it at that the Doom cannot effect units in transports. If you do it the other way it'll likely just end up in great debates over the rules mid-game, which really should be avoided.

MystheDevourer
23-01-2010, 03:53
I don't have the BRB at hand, but I do know that while units in transports are immune to morale tests, are they also immune to leadership tests? In fact, are there any effects in the game that would cause a unit in a transport to be subjected to oe while they would normally be immune to morale tests? I see Morale and leadership tests as different as they are defined under different names.

I'm not all knowing about 40k either, especially the Eldar (one of m main blamlkk spots in my knowledge of 40k, lol). No units in transports are allowed to be targeted yes but Spirit Leech does not target so it does not matter.

@ Totgeboren: I am sorry but not everyone has your infinite wisdom. I have fought against Eldar what 0! times. We do not have many Eldar players so meh.

totgeboren
23-01-2010, 09:17
No units in transports are allowed to be targeted yes but Spirit Leech does not target so it does not matter.

@ Totgeboren: I am sorry but not everyone has your infinite wisdom. I have fought against Eldar what 0! times. We do not have many Eldar players so meh.

Hey, I never claimed infinite knowledge. You are the one who is claiming knowledge here.

I said I don't know, and therefor I think its best to wait for the FAQ before making the assessment that it works. Its feels like the most logical way to proceed, since everything else that works on stuff in transports has this spelled out.

You said you know that it works, but you have no clear reference, only circumstantial evidence. And of these, one is a reference to a psychic power that you say can target units in transports. Then you freely admit that you do not know what that power is, or what can cast it.

I have now read the Eldar FAQ and the Codex, and nowhere does it state that the the Farseer can target a unit inside a transport with Doom. I don't really know why it should be able to target units in transports.

If I am wrong, someone feel free to point out where it allows the Farseer to target a unit with the power Doom that is normally untargetable.

Netfreakk
23-01-2010, 11:11
Though it may seem circumstantial evidence, it does abide by all the mechanics of the game.

Pg 66 BRB:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

As stated before, there would be no need for this specific ruling on how to measure a range to an embarked unit and should have been omitted if they could not be effected by anything and were immune to influences from outside the vehicle.

Also pg 67.
"Destroyed - explodes! ...The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be..." If what you're trying to suggest is that the embarked unit is not on the board (even abstractly), then you can ignore this section as you are told to place the surviving passengers after the explosion damage which shouldn't be effecting the unit as they are yet to be placed on the gaming surface and cannot be "treated just like hits from shooting".

MystheDevourer
23-01-2010, 13:25
Though it may seem circumstantial evidence, it does abide by all the mechanics of the game.

Pg 66 BRB:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

As stated before, there would be no need for this specific ruling on how to measure a range to an embarked unit and should have been omitted if they could not be effected by anything and were immune to influences from outside the vehicle.

Also pg 67.
"Destroyed - explodes! ...The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be..." If what you're trying to suggest is that the embarked unit is not on the board (even abstractly), then you can ignore this section as you are told to place the surviving passengers after the explosion damage which shouldn't be effecting the unit as they are yet to be placed on the gaming surface and cannot be "treated just like hits from shooting".

Well in the BRB it does say you can not 'target" units in a transport. But spirit leech does not target it only effects units in the 6 inch range. I dont pick a target it just happens. Its like it has a force field that just drains away life as it moves that stays X distance away thats all.

MoonReaper
23-01-2010, 16:21
The monoliths gauss flux affects all units within 12'

Yet according to the faq, it needs LOS.

So ye, Arguing that you can affect units in transports with the doom is a bit dodgy

Netfreakk
23-01-2010, 16:58
Well in the BRB it does say you can not 'target" units in a transport. But spirit leech does not target it only effects units in the 6 inch range. I dont pick a target it just happens. Its like it has a force field that just drains away life as it moves that stays X distance away thats all.

Right, I am agreeing with you. When spirit leech meets the requirements to trigger it's power it goes off, it doesn't "target" anything.

mattschuur
23-01-2010, 18:03
Mysthedevourer-
"So tell me this. Where are the units? If you say in the transport then I win as a heads up. As for WHY this ability works this way it is because it does not:"

They are in the transport, but they can't be targeted, only the vehicle.

(1) Target the unit to deal damage)

Yes, you can't target an embarked unit.

(2) It does not attack the unit in anyway)

Then why do they take wounds? It does not say in the book that it is 'not' an attack. It causes harm and damage, it at the very least affects them. But whether its an attack or not is irrelevant.

3) It does effect them, look at the Parasite of Mortex ability "The sarge is acting wierd. . ."

Yes, but it specifically states that it affects models in vehicles. It isn't a shooting attack or a psychic attack but a passive ability like spirit leach. Seems pretty obvious that if one passive ability specify affecting embarked troops and 1 doesn't, then the one that doesn't can't effect them.

4) If an Eldar Wraithlord can effect units in transports with its special ability then why can't something that does not do the first 2 things. let me go find the thread that had the argument and I will get back to you.

As someone said, Wraithlords and Wraithguard have nothing to effect models in vehicles.

BRB pg 66 "If the player need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

[B]Fine rule, but it is irrelevant. How an embarked unit and it's transport interact has nothing to do with how they are affected by the enemy. Read a little further, P. 67 the note, 'a squad cannot take out a transport with its lascannon and then mow down the occupants with their bolters. However if the transport is destroyed by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault....'. It seems to be saying that an embarked unit can't be targeted unless the transport is destroyed. Show 'me' the rules that discusses how non-psychic and non-shooting, passive attacks operate and i'll believe you, but since there is no such designation then like shooting and psychic attacks the doom cannot affect embarked units, unless it specifies it can like the other nid special character.[B]

[B]Its the same old song and dance with every new dex. 'lets find as many loopholes as possible. Its been pretty standard in my 7 years with GW that the rules of the Big book can only be overruled by a specific statement of the fact within the relevant codex. Proof- Parasite specifically says it affects embarked units, Doom doesn't.[B]


Either way a FAQ will specify (hopefully), rendering this entire discussion mute.
Matt Schuur

MystheDevourer
23-01-2010, 19:06
Mysthedevourer-
"So tell me this. Where are the units? If you say in the transport then I win as a heads up. As for WHY this ability works this way it is because it does not:"

They are in the transport, but they can't be targeted, only the vehicle.

(1) Target the unit to deal damage)

Yes, you can't target an embarked unit.

Glad that you agree


(2) It does not attack the unit in anyway)

Then why do they take wounds? It does not say in the book that it is 'not' an attack. It causes harm and damage, it at the very least affects them. But whether its an attack or not is irrelevant.

Because its an ability that just effects everything in range. To target I would have to tell you that I am "selecting that unit" from something special, I am not, instead I am just keeping an invisible 6" radius ring aroung the Doom


3) It does effect them, look at the Parasite of Mortex ability "The sarge is acting wierd. . ."

Yes, but it specifically states that it affects models in vehicles. It isn't a shooting attack or a psychic attack but a passive ability like spirit leach. Seems pretty obvious that if one passive ability specify affecting embarked troops and 1 doesn't, then the one that doesn't can't effect them.

So tell me something, what does passive mean? Last time I check it meant something that you did not activate but just happened. Am I wrong? DOes Spirit Leech not just happen? I do not have to say I am using the ability but the test pops up regardless correct?


BRB pg 66 "If the player need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

[B]Fine rule, but it is irrelevant. How an embarked unit and it's transport interact has nothing to do with how they are affected by the enemy. Read a little further, P. 67 the note, 'a squad cannot take out a transport with its lascannon and then mow down the occupants with their bolters. However if the transport is destroyed by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault....'. It seems to be saying that an embarked unit can't be targeted unless the transport is destroyed. Show 'me' the rules that discusses how non-psychic and non-shooting, passive attacks operate and i'll believe you, but since there is no such designation then like shooting and psychic attacks the doom cannot affect embarked units, unless it specifies it can like the other nid special character.[B]

I would tend to agree with you but Doom is pretty straight forward. As some people have mentioned GW is not always putting things the correct. I digress. . .

With something straight forward that says:

". . . every non-vehicle unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai . . ."

Straight forward if you ask me, since you already told me that the unit is IN the transport and we have proven that it does not target the unit in the transport, nor does it attack the unit I do not see why something THIS straight forward does not work.

It literally spells out its effect with out the real need to elaborate. I apologize if it seems Robin Cruddace seems that that was to straight forward.

What is that saying?

"Sometimes the simplest things are the ones that are most misunderstood"
"Complex minds cannot grasp simple concepts"

Take your pick from those 2 but they both work well.


[B]Its the same old song and dance with every new dex. 'lets find as many loopholes as possible. Its been pretty standard in my 7 years with GW that the rules of the Big book can only be overruled by a specific statement of the fact within the relevant codex. Proof- Parasite specifically says it affects embarked units, Doom doesn't.[B]


Either way a FAQ will specify (hopefully), rendering this entire discussion mute.
Matt Schuur

Honestly even though it is a loophole that GW has used in the past will you honestly complain about something that you can run from?

Black Antelope
23-01-2010, 23:12
I've only had one game, and he did poorly (although that was down to luck and bad play).
First turn, move up, shoots as some Stealth Suits, killing one (stupid shield drones). His turn, Railgun>Face. I shouldn't complain, it was the only KP he got.:p

Meriwether
24-01-2010, 00:03
Whether or not the Doom of Malan'tai affects units in vehicles is being discussed in the Rules Forum. I suggest that particular discussion move there.

LonelyPath
24-01-2010, 02:31
Whether or not the Doom of Malan'tai affects units in vehicles is being discussed in the Rules Forum. I suggest that particular discussion move there.

Agreed, there are enough discussions online about this as it is, let's focus on other aspects of this addition to the codex.

How about this...

It does seem fairly obvious to give the unit a Mycetic Spore, but what about walking it in as I do? It's long(er) ranged weapon can inflict alot of damage, would you warrant this manuevuer?

Meriwether
24-01-2010, 02:45
I see the utility of the DoM to mostly be in the "oh, crap, I need to kill that NOW NOW NOW" -- and that primarily means Mycetic Spore.

...but I could see it as a held-back-behind-LOS-blocking-terrain monster lurking and waiting for silly troops choices to come along and try to take objectives...

Maybe. The thought requires more analysis.

Hoodwink
24-01-2010, 07:23
Relating the Doom to the Parasite is a bit silly.

The Parasite requires models to be placed. It had to be clarified because you can not place your models INSIDE an enemy vehicle.

As a nid player, I was actually siding towards Doom not affecting units in vehicles. BUT since it doesn't target and various other arguments, I just find far more information leading me to believe it does.

Just seems like the people saying it doesn't affect it are basing their info off of 1 or 2 rules, while the people siding for it have a plethora of rules. In these cases, I have to side with the person backed up with far more rules.

I don't know whether it's right or wrong, but it's how I'm going to play. Just seems far more solid.

Ravenous
25-01-2010, 18:43
I see the utility of the DoM to mostly be in the "oh, crap, I need to kill that NOW NOW NOW" -- and that primarily means Mycetic Spore.

...but I could see it as a held-back-behind-LOS-blocking-terrain monster lurking and waiting for silly troops choices to come along and try to take objectives...

Maybe. The thought requires more analysis.

After seeing what Dr Doom did yesterday my entire gaming group is basically assuming every nid army will have him in a spore just because he will either table your opponent or be a massive distraction.

We watched it drop down into a Eldar army and it killed the Avatar, 2 wraithlords and huge dent on 3 guardian squads, all which softened the Eldar army up for the Trygons and Ymgarls.

Bunnahabhain
25-01-2010, 19:33
I see the utility of the DoM to mostly be in the "oh, crap, I need to kill that NOW NOW NOW" -- and that primarily means Mycetic Spore.

...but I could see it as a held-back-behind-LOS-blocking-terrain monster lurking and waiting for silly troops choices to come along and try to take objectives...

Maybe. The thought requires more analysis.

Yet another reason why Mr DH-Inquisitor-with-mystics is staying in most of my lists.

There are simply too many things that killing before they do anything is a most attractive option, although this one must be near the top of the list...

Agnar the Howler
25-01-2010, 19:41
My experience with the Doom as such is based only upon 1 game, so it's by no means conclusive... It got particle whipped down on the first turn by a monolith. Unless we missed something pretty big, like a hidden Eternal Warrior rule or something that disallows ID via double toughness, i'd say it wasn't that bad, failing to do anything for the entire first turn it was alive for...

LonelyPath
25-01-2010, 19:52
I'm expecting to see an increase in DH Inq + Mystics combos myself, though with careful placement, Dr Doom can avoid it or even use the Spore to hide behind an avoid incoming fire from the unit nominated to fire upon the Doom/Spore. The range of the Inq + Mystics is also limited to 24" and that's if you're lucky you roll high enough. Thankfully (for Nids) the Inq + Mystics is limited to a 1 unit deal, as that's the maximum number of elite choices you can ally into another force. Yes, placing them toward the center of your battle line can (and often will) help, there are still the flanks that will likely be outside your reach.

Last time out with Dr Doom (I like that name, really hope it sticks for the model heheh) I only used it with Synapse form a Trygon Prime, this week though I'm intentionally putting it outside that range, it should prove alot more fun. I can just see it chasing enemy units about the board until it's eventually (maybe?) brought down. it should cause a little havoc before then though, heh.

Also, I wanna try out Cluster Spones on a Spore, low BS won't really mean alot when it's a blast weapon and I've got a feeling I'll be up against Orks...

MystheDevourer
25-01-2010, 21:33
Also, I wanna try out Cluster Spones on a Spore, low BS won't really mean alot when it's a blast weapon and I've got a feeling I'll be up against Orks...

I ALWAYS give my spores the Cluster Spines. it provides with alot of entertainment when that big pie plate drops and they are like "Oh your Biovores already shot. . . Right?. . . "

As for the Doom he did decent against Daemons last night, I have learned that you dont have to shoot with him in order to bring the most pain out and also you SHOULD not be using Cataclysm unless he has over 8 wounds >.>

LonelyPath
25-01-2010, 23:01
Cluster Spines do look really goo on paper, just not tried them out in a game yet, but then I've yet to try out the Spores at all.

At low strength (4 - 6)I only use Cataclysm against units that are most likely to get dropped by him, so anything T4 or less and no invulnerable saves. I managed to take out 5 SM Scouts with the first shot and only rolled a sinlge wound for myself, very nice turn out. But it is his (its?) Spirit Leech that truly makes him (it?) deadly.

I really am thinking it'll be Orks tomorrow night, but I also hope for Tau, my opponent likes to field his troops in support of one another, making them a tasty snack or two, plus those battlesuits... I hate those things and wanna swallow their souls! :D

MystheDevourer
25-01-2010, 23:11
Cluster Spines do look really goo on paper, just not tried them out in a game yet, but then I've yet to try out the Spores at all.

At low strength (4 - 6)I only use Cataclysm against units that are most likely to get dropped by him, so anything T4 or less and no invulnerable saves. I managed to take out 5 SM Scouts with the first shot and only rolled a sinlge wound for myself, very nice turn out. But it is his (its?) Spirit Leech that truly makes him (it?) deadly.

I really am thinking it'll be Orks tomorrow night, but I also hope for Tau, my opponent likes to field his troops in support of one another, making them a tasty snack or two, plus those battlesuits... I hate those things and wanna swallow their souls! :D

Yes Spirit leech is that deadly, you see then i will never care about him being in Snypse because he will move towards and enemy and make them either waste their heavy weapon shots or they will be forced to deal with him meaning that other things will live longer.

"It's all part of the plan. . . "

LonelyPath
26-01-2010, 01:31
Ah yes, the plan. The plan is so great it just cannot be explained, only consumed ;)

Keeping Dr Doom in synapse was fun to keep him under control, but I like to try out all forms of using something, so spore without synapse is tomorrow, then the week after maybe walk him without synapse. He'll reach the enemy ast enough, just depends on what state, lol.

Giganthrax
26-01-2010, 03:23
Someone said earlier in this thread that doom of malan'tai psychic drain thingie affects units inside vehicles.

Is this exactly how it's stated in the new codex, or are you people coming up with it? Because it's stated clearly in the 5th ed rulebook that psychic powers without a strength value do not affect vehicles (and therefore do not affect models inside vehicles) unless it is explicitly stated in their description that they do.

Moreover, units inside transports cannot be targeted by any psychic powers, shooting, or general rule attacks, unless it's explicitly stated in that particular rule.

So, unless GW released a FAQ stating clearly that the life drain thingie affects units inside vehicles, I'm afraid I won't allow an opponent to drain my transported units. It would be one hell of a dumb rule, anyway, especially when combined with a spore pod. You could just pop a podded doom among a bunch of vehicles and slaughter a lot of enemy models simply by being there. It would rather take away from the tactical acumen, IMHO.

Bassline
26-01-2010, 03:29
Someone said earlier in this thread that doom of malan'tai psychic drain thingie affects units inside vehicles.

Is this exactly how it's stated in the new codex, or are you people coming up with it? Because it's stated clearly in the 5th ed rulebook that psychic powers without a strength value do not affect vehicles (and therefore do not affect models inside vehicles) unless it is explicitly stated in their description that they do.

Moreover, units inside transports cannot be targeted by any psychic powers or general rule attacks, unless it's explicitly stated in that particular rule.

So, unless GW released a FAQ stating clearly that the life drain thingie affects units inside vehicles, I'm afraid I won't allow an opponent to drain my transported units. It would be one hell of a dumb rule, anyway, especially when combined with a spore pod.

Its not a psychic power

Netfreakk
26-01-2010, 04:41
Mysthedevourer-
4) If an Eldar Wraithlord can effect units in transports with its special ability then why can't something that does not do the first 2 things. let me go find the thread that had the argument and I will get back to you.

As someone said, Wraithlords and Wraithguard have nothing to effect models in vehicles.

Matt Schuur

I think they were referring to the FAQ that the Eldar have.

"Q. If you have Wraithguards embarked in a Wave Serpent, do they still have to make the Wraithsight roll? If yes, can a friendly psyker within 6" of the vehicle prevent them from making this roll?"

"A. Yes, and yes....."

So now we have a passive ability working on an embarked unit. If the unit was not in the vehicle then how did they measure the psyker to the wraithguards? If there is no psyker 6" to the vehicle the wraithguards have to make a LD roll. So I guess this shows that units are considered in a vehicle and that LD rolls do exist for units embarked in a vehicle.

MystheDevourer
26-01-2010, 04:53
Ah yes, the plan. The plan is so great it just cannot be explained, only consumed ;)

Keeping Dr Doom in synapse was fun to keep him under control, but I like to try out all forms of using something, so spore without synapse is tomorrow, then the week after maybe walk him without synapse. He'll reach the enemy ast enough, just depends on what state, lol.

Remember he does not need to roll for Synapse the turn he pods in BECAUSE it is counted as a type of rage in which they go by page 94 of the BRB

LonelyPath
26-01-2010, 12:24
Remember he does not need to roll for Synapse the turn he pods in BECAUSE it is counted as a type of rage in which they go by page 94 of the BRB

Don't you worry, I'm trying to keep that bit in mind, even if I forget my opponent is more than likely to remind me. We're forever reminding eachother of things, especially whether they are gonna move/shoot/assault with X unit. We're a pretty friendly bunch.

@ Netfreak - after reading that rule with the Wraithguard, I have to admit that if a psyker can prevent the Wraithsight roll, then I would have to admit that Dr Doom would indeed effect units embarked in vehicles. I'll give it a shot tonight and see what others in my club think of it. Thanks for that info :)

Giganthrax
26-01-2010, 15:29
Its not a psychic power
Irrelevant.

Unless it explicitly states in the rules that it can affect units in transports, then we'll just say it doesn't. Units in transports are pretty much untouchable, unless the special rule states otherwise, and in the case of The Doom, it doesn't.

Nuage
26-01-2010, 15:36
Can't we keep the rule discussion concerning the Doom ability in the Rule subsection, where it belong ?
There's already a couple threads about that subject (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241148&page=5 for the latest) where all the arguments raised here have already been debated to death and beyond.

Nuage.

MystheDevourer
26-01-2010, 15:53
Irrelevant.

Unless it explicitly states in the rules that it can affect units in transports, then we'll just say it doesn't. Units in transports are pretty much untouchable, unless the special rule states otherwise, and in the case of The Doom, it doesn't.

Honestly? Gah this is completly absurd, there are abilities out their like the Wraithgaurd's Wraithsight effect the transport and the unit in the Transport?

Also the Eldar FAQ does not limit the Doom ability in any way allowing it TO target units Embarked.



The monoliths gauss flux affects all units within 12'

Yet according to the faq, it needs LOS.

So ye, Arguing that you can affect units in transports with the doom is a bit dodgy

SO tell me is that a weapon or an ability? Does it do damage or does it do an Ld test?

Giganthrax
26-01-2010, 15:59
SO tell me is that a weapon or an ability? Does it do damage or does it do an Ld test?
It doesn't matter what it does.

There are only a couple abilities in the game that can affect units in transports (greater daemon summonings, the sarge is acting strangely etc.) and they all have it explained explicitly how they affect units in transports.

Unless it's stated explicitly in Doom rules that it affects units in transports, we'll just have to assume it doesn't. Its tiny price only confirms this - if Cruddance wanted it to be THAT powerful that it can slaughter a bunch of models just by droppoding among their transports (something no other unit in the game can do), then surely it would cost more.

Netfreakk
26-01-2010, 16:32
Why would it need to have something explicitly stated that it affects units in transports when the general rule has mechanics allowing units to be affected in transports?

You only need an exception or a clear statement when something isn't allowed, or if something is ambiguous. Since the mechanics for Doom is allowed I see no need for it to make a specific exception, when it can follow all the general rules and still operate.

MystheDevourer
26-01-2010, 17:14
Why would it need to have something explicitly stated that it affects units in transports when the general rule has mechanics allowing units to be affected in transports?

You only need an exception or a clear statement when something isn't allowed, or if something is ambiguous. Since the mechanics for Doom is allowed I see no need for it to make a specific exception, when it can follow all the general rules and still operate.

well the argument is still based on 2 things, 1) the Units are/ are not on the board and 2) an ability with the precise wording "Every non-vehicle unit within 6". . . "

Just with the wording alone it says that it effects units embarked. Plain as day the FACT that it EXPLICITLY SAYS "Every non-vehicle unit. . ." just how much more clearer do you need that to be?

Nezalhualixtlan
26-01-2010, 17:28
It's definitely *not* a psychic power, but until and unless a FAQ comes out stating that it does in fact target units embarked in a transport, I'm not comfortable making the claim that it should. That pretty much goes against the standard mode of operation in the game, with the very few exceptions where it's explicitly spelled out otherwise either through the rules for a particular item, ability, or power, or through a FAQ which clears things up.

I can see the arguments for having it affect units embarked on a transport, but I don't think they are persuasive enough to do so without a FAQ stating they can.

MystheDevourer
26-01-2010, 17:32
It's definitely *not* a psychic power, but until and unless a FAQ comes out stating that it does in fact target units embarked in a transport, I'm not comfortable making the claim that it should. That pretty much goes against the standard mode of operation in the game, with the very few exceptions where it's explicitly spelled out otherwise either through the rules for a particular item, ability, or power, or through a FAQ which clears things up.

I can see the arguments for having it affect units embarked on a transport, but I don't think they are persuasive enough to do so without a FAQ stating they can.

Why? yes I am using the age old question of why. reason being is because the wording of Spirit leech "Soul Sucker" states "Every non-vechicle unit. . . " Is that not straight forward enough? Are the units embarked counted as being on the board for reasons such as shooting and capturing?

Netfreakk
26-01-2010, 17:33
well the argument is still based on 2 things, 1) the Units are/ are not on the board and 2) an ability with the precise wording "Every non-vehicle unit within 6". . . "

Just with the wording alone it says that it effects units embarked. Plain as day the FACT that it EXPLICITLY SAYS "Every non-vehicle unit. . ." just how much more clearer do you need that to be?

I'm confused in why you keep quoting me like I'm not agreeing with you. :confused:

MystheDevourer
26-01-2010, 17:35
I'm confused in why you keep quoting me like I'm not agreeing with you. :confused:

I was showing both sides of the arguement for those that did not know and I used what you said to offer an explaination.

Nezalhualixtlan
26-01-2010, 18:00
Why? yes I am using the age old question of why. reason being is because the wording of Spirit leech "Soul Sucker" states "Every non-vechicle unit. . . " Is that not straight forward enough? Are the units embarked counted as being on the board for reasons such as shooting and capturing?

I already told you why. In the overwhelming amount of cases, either you are prohibited from affecting a unit inside a transport in a sort of blanket rule, or you must specifically have a rule written to explicitly spell out that you can, or have a FAQ produced which explicitly spells that out.

I don't think the weight of a few isolated and weird cases where that isn't the case is enough to warrant trying to take this kind of advantage for myself. If GW were to release a FAQ that says "spirit leech hits units embarked in vehicles" then I'd be happy to use it. But without that, for my own personal integrity, I'll take the handicap rather than try to gain the advantage for a rule which is very much unclear in how it's supposed to work.

I'm not saying it's out of the question that it works like you've stated. I could see GW coming out later and giving us the go ahead to affect units inside transports, I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility. But unless that happens, I'm just not comfortable doing it for myself.

Killgore
26-01-2010, 18:07
I always thought units inside of transports were not classed as being on the table so could not be affected by things such as Doomi's spell

I don’t consider it a handy cap if they aren’t effected, its effective enough already!

Netfreakk
26-01-2010, 18:12
And that's fine Nezalhualixtlan if you don't want to play it like it's written, but I don't see how you are arguing that it doesn't abide by the rules, when it isn't breaking any rules. I just see how you're arguing that it doesn't meet the requirements that the ability is asking for when it specifically states that it affects all non-vehicle units that are 6" from it.

If you want to play it as something that can't affect units inside a vehicle make a house-rule for it, but don't confuse people by stating that it's an illegal move when there is no argument other than "it has to specifically state that it can". That's like trying to tell someone that meltaguns can't shoot at vehicles because it doesn't specifically state that "models with meltaguns can target vehicles".

It abides all the general rules and functions legally. Now if GW makes a FAQ and states that it CAN'T then players should stop doing it, but since its ability doesn't break any rules and can operate within the general rules, I don't see how people can state that it doesn't work that way.

Netfreakk
26-01-2010, 18:15
I always thought units inside of transports were not classed as being on the table so could not be affected by things such as Doomi's spell

I don’t consider it a handy cap if they aren’t effected, its effective enough already!

So would shadow of the warp not affect psykers that are embarked in a vehicle?

Emissary
26-01-2010, 18:33
Also the Eldar FAQ does not limit the Doom ability in any way allowing it TO target units Embarked.

No, but the official 40k FAQ does http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_40k_Rulebook_March_2009.pdf.

For me this whole argument looks rather silly. GW has never really allowed embarked units to be attacked. You don't hit units in a vehicle (especially an open topped vehicle) with a blast that directly nails the vehicle. The embarked models are considered to be on the table, as they can cast spells from any point on the hull (so they are affected by shadows of the warp from a hive mind 12" away). GW's policy for this has pretty much been in this edition "the models are there in the transport and can interact, but you can't attack them." I don't see this changing. A blast hits all models within x" of the center, but it doesn't hit embarked models.

Meriwether
26-01-2010, 19:37
The issue here is a matter of long-held convention, that may or may not have been intentionally done away with by the codex.

MystheDevourer
26-01-2010, 21:17
And that's fine Nezalhualixtlan if you don't want to play it like it's written, but I don't see how you are arguing that it doesn't abide by the rules, when it isn't breaking any rules. I just see how you're arguing that it doesn't meet the requirements that the ability is asking for when it specifically states that it affects all non-vehicle units that are 6" from it.

If you want to play it as something that can't affect units inside a vehicle make a house-rule for it, but don't confuse people by stating that it's an illegal move when there is no argument other than "it has to specifically state that it can". That's like trying to tell someone that meltaguns can't shoot at vehicles because it doesn't specifically state that "models with meltaguns can target vehicles".

It abides all the general rules and functions legally. Now if GW makes a FAQ and states that it CAN'T then players should stop doing it, but since its ability doesn't break any rules and can operate within the general rules, I don't see how people can state that it doesn't work that way.
^^^^^

Yoru approve this message

Shanyra
26-01-2010, 23:52
Youre still discussing that stuff? Wow. Guess a FAQ is needed to stop you *smiles* Either way, we have two opposing fronts, either one says theyre right because of "insert random sourcebook here".
The problem is, you wont reach a conclusion, it just goes on and on and on.

No issue so far, forums are for discussion, but lets not forget the original OP question:


"Has anyone else tested out this creature yet and if so, what have your experiences been like so far? "

Would be a shame if that thread ends in a full scale "rule war" - which belongs to the the rules forum anyway.

So far,

Shanyra

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 00:10
Youre still discussing that stuff? Wow. Guess a FAQ is needed to stop you *smiles* Either way, we have two opposing fronts, either one says theyre right because of "insert random sourcebook here".
The problem is, you wont reach a conclusion, it just goes on and on and on.

No issue so far, forums are for discussion, but lets not forget the original OP question:



Would be a shame if that thread ends in a full scale "rule war" - which belongs to the the rules forum anyway.

So far,

Shanyra

Thank you Shanyra for bringing us back on topic ^-^

I have tested it out 3 times now, and I stand by my decision that it is not to over powered. Honestly it just helps Nids out that you either have to stand and take the ability again or you move and try to drop it under a hail of bullets which the daemon player I used it against did.

Shanyra
27-01-2010, 00:43
Do you ever sleep Myst? Nevermind, Mawlocs dont sleep..i think. :D

Anyways, saw that little guy lighting up a guard gunline in our games store yesterday (finally someone jumped onto the tyranid train) . First turn the IG player ignored it...second turn it went down in a uhm, lets say , "laser enlightment". As far as my opinion goes this little thing does a good job in being a focusworthy (is that even a word?) distraction.
It gets a bit ugly if you ignore it tbh. If you take quick care of it is merely an annoyance and not much to worry about - even if it takes valuable firepower away from other units.
Thats of course just an opinion build on one observed game...and can change, the tyranid player was uhm, average at best.

LonelyPath
27-01-2010, 00:43
Thanks to poor reserve rolls I only managed to get it into the game via spore for the last turn of my game tonight, but I must admit that after taking a bit of a hammering (thanks to great rolls on befalf of my enemy and very poor ones on my side) I must admit I felt better after landing inside range of 3 squads numbering a total of over 25 marines and felling 18 with a single use of Leech. In fact I think those are the only really bad rolls my opponent had in the whole game. That and a last turn outflanking unit of Stealers turned a crushing defeat into a climactic draw.

Next time I'm putting a Tyrant with Hive Commander back into my roster to get my Nids on the board sooner, lol.

Ranmbling Rocket
27-01-2010, 01:08
Personally, I think a mod should lock this thread for going of topic.

But silly me, I'll just add my two cents, since I can't believe that something that obviously needs a FAQ is still being debated.

Now I with state first up that I think there is a valid argument for the Doom affecting units in vehicles. And those that favour this arguement have stated the reasons fairly well. So I will not repeat the pro point of view.

As for the against (ie Doom can not affect units in transports), I feel that it is just as valid.

Yes, the 'unit' is on the table (in a sense). Yes the unit is in range. To argue against these two facts is self defeating. Unfortuneately, that is what some have tried to build a a debate on.

However, when a unit is aboard a transport, some of its characteristics are subsumed by the transport (namely movement becomes the vehicles movement and wounds becomes the vehicles armour - until the vehicle is destroyed or the unit disembarks).

In effect, the unit stops being a unit, and becomes a buff for the vehicle, with only those characteristics that are not subsumed by the vehicle being able to be affected by external forces (unless specifically stated otherwise).

So the Doom's own rules supply the arguement against it. The Doom affects non-vehicle units only. And while being transported, the unit is, in effect, a vehicle unit, mainly since its wounds are subsumed by an AV number instead. The Doom can not use it's 'leech life' ability on a 'Buffed Vehicle'. By the rules of the game, arguing that the doom can drain wounds from a transported unit is exactly the same as arguing that a special ability that slows the movement of non-vehicles will also slow down transported troops. But both those two characteristics (movement and wound/AV) are equally subsumed by the vehicle. So you must affect the vehicle, not the unit, in order to affect those characteristics.

While I have put forth the case against, I can see both sides of the arguement. However, I do not pretend to know what the author intended. It needs a FAQ (or a dice roll before each game).

Meanwhile, for the Dark Eldar, Vect and his crew all laugh, as he/they is/are a vehicle character, and there are no listed wounds to even think about leeching. If Tyranids have one model that can leech life causing such a debate, then the Dark Eldar might be a nightmare when they get re-released. :D

Shanyra
27-01-2010, 01:56
And just after this thread was going back on topic...*sigh* stay away from the rulebook! :D

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 02:25
Do you ever sleep Myst? Nevermind, Mawlocs dont sleep..i think. :D

Anyways, saw that little guy lighting up a guard gunline in our games store yesterday (finally someone jumped onto the tyranid train) . First turn the IG player ignored it...second turn it went down in a uhm, lets say , "laser enlightment". As far as my opinion goes this little thing does a good job in being a focusworthy (is that even a word?) distraction.
It gets a bit ugly if you ignore it tbh. If you take quick care of it is merely an annoyance and not much to worry about - even if it takes valuable firepower away from other units.
Thats of course just an opinion build on one observed game...and can change, the tyranid player was uhm, average at best.

I SLEEP. . . not very often the problem is that I am at work and I am bored to near death so I am usually active. Weekends is when I am not really here.

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 02:32
Personally, I think a mod should lock this thread for going of topic.

But silly me, I'll just add my two cents, since I can't believe that something that obviously needs a FAQ is still being debated.

Now I with state first up that I think there is a valid argument for the Doom affecting units in vehicles. And those that favour this arguement have stated the reasons fairly well. So I will not repeat the pro point of view.

As for the against (ie Doom can not affect units in transports), I feel that it is just as valid.

Yes, the 'unit' is on the table (in a sense). Yes the unit is in range. To argue against these two facts is self defeating. Unfortuneately, that is what some have tried to build a a debate on.

However, when a unit is aboard a transport, some of its characteristics are subsumed by the transport (namely movement becomes the vehicles movement and wounds becomes the vehicles armour - until the vehicle is destroyed or the unit disembarks).

In effect, the unit stops being a unit, and becomes a buff for the vehicle, with only those characteristics that are not subsumed by the vehicle being able to be affected by external forces (unless specifically stated otherwise).

So the Doom's own rules supply the arguement against it. The Doom affects non-vehicle units only.[b/And while being transported, the unit is, in effect, a vehicle unit, mainly since its wounds are subsumed by an AV number instead.[/b] The Doom can not use it's 'leech life' ability on a 'Buffed Vehicle'. By the rules of the game, arguing that the doom can drain wounds from a transported unit is exactly the same as arguing that a special ability that slows the movement of non-vehicles will also slow down transported troops. But both those two characteristics (movement and wound/AV) are equally subsumed by the vehicle. So you must affect the vehicle, not the unit, in order to affect those characteristics.

Shanyra I am terribly sorry but this HAS to be said.

If the Unit is a Vehicle unit then how does it use its own BS for shooting and not the vehicle? Can you tell me where this is said. . .

Netfreakk
27-01-2010, 02:50
Also, @Ranmbling Rocket:

If units are co-vehicle existence, then things like wraithsight... if you fail does the vehicle stop operating as well?

edit* thought of this as well:

When embarked in a building you use the vehicle rules. However, you are able to use template weapons to damage units inside a building... are you inferring that you use armor value on those units inside?

edit 2*

What do you do to those that fail saves? Do they not die since they're "removed" from the table?

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 03:15
Also, @Ranmbling Rocket:

If units are co-vehicle existence, then things like wraithsight... if you fail does the vehicle stop operating as well?

edit* thought of this as well:

When embarked in a building you use the vehicle rules. However, you are able to use template weapons to damage units inside a building... are you inferring that you use armor value on those units inside?

edit 2*

What do you do to those that fail saves? Do they not die since they're "removed" from the table?The nice thing is they are on the table in all technicality, you only remove them due to GW's common sense and knowing that you can not fit 10 space marine models in your plastic box you call a transport.

Giganthrax
27-01-2010, 04:01
Why would it need to have something explicitly stated that it affects units in transports when the general rule has mechanics allowing units to be affected in transports?
And with all these mechanics (such as stunned/shaken results on the damage table, etc.), it's explicitly stated when and how they affect troops in transports.

By the same logic, Njal's storm should affect units in transports, too. It says in the rule "unengaged enemy units take hits", so that would mean that units in transports (since units in transports are by default unengaged) should take these hits, too? Or are the units within vehicles affected with the -1 BS too?

You only need an exception or a clear statement when something isn't allowed, or if something is ambiguous. Since the mechanics for Doom is allowed I see no need for it to make a specific exception, when it can follow all the general rules and still operate.
Where does it state in the mechanics for doom that it's allowed to do what is the general rule of the game (units in transports being generally unaffected unless stated otherwise)?

It doesn't.

People hoping that the doom would be able to miraculously go around slaughtering transportfuls of units for 90 points are just really looking for an unfair advantage, IMHO.

Netfreakk
27-01-2010, 04:33
Well let's break it down:
Rules for using ability:
"At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every nono-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armour saves allowed."

Rules to use it & mechanics that allow it:
Activates automatically at the beginning of shooting phase.
check
non-vehicle enemy unit within 6"
--Refer to measuring units embarked in vehicles. BRB66
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."
check
Enemy unit must take a Leadership test:
--Eldar FAQ pg3:
"Q. If you have Wraithguards embarked in a Wave Serpent do they still have to make the Wraithsight roll?..."
"A. Yes"
Units can take leadership tests. Check
Can embarked units take wounds?
--BRB Pg 80. Template Weapons
Template weapons example illustrates that embarked units do take wounds. Granted in vehicles template weapons cannot wound units. This is more to illustrate that it is possible for embarked units to take wounds. However, plasmaguns Gets hot! rule do give wounds to units that are embarked.
Check.

Seems clear that the rules allow it. Now show me where in the rules that disproves this? I'm not looking for a quote that states that this cannot work, as it is a permissive rule set, but I am looking for something that would counter this argument as everything that I just stated is in the general rules and has no problems rule wise.

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 04:40
Well let's break it down:
Rules for using ability:
"At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every nono-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armour saves allowed."

Rules to use it & mechanics that allow it:
Activates automatically at the beginning of shooting phase.
check
non-vehicle enemy unit within 6"
--Refer to measuring units embarked in vehicles. BRB66
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."
check
Enemy unit must take a Leadership test:
--Eldar FAQ pg3:
"Q. If you have Wraithguards embarked in a Wave Serpent do they still have to make the Wraithsight roll?..."
"A. Yes"
Units can take leadership tests. Check
Can embarked units take wounds?
--BRB Pg 80. Template Weapons
Template weapons example illustrates that embarked units do take wounds. Granted in vehicles template weapons cannot wound units. This is more to illustrate that it is possible for embarked units to take wounds. However, plasmaguns Gets hot! rule do give wounds to units that are embarked.
Check.

Seems clear that the rules allow it. Now show me where in the rules that disproves this? I'm not looking for a quote that states that this cannot work, as it is a permissive rule set, but I am looking for something that would counter this argument as everything that I just stated is in the general rules and has no problems rule wise.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^

I approve this message


You are amazing! simply and utterly amazing/

Giganthrax
27-01-2010, 05:22
"At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every nono-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armour saves allowed."
Units inside vehicles don't take leadership, morale, or pinning tests of any kind.

Hence, the power doesn't affect the units inside vehicles unless that is stated explicitly in the rule description.

The wraithguard & overheat! special rules are exactly that - special rules. In them, it's obviously explicitly stated that they do apply. Never is it said that it's a general rule that units in vehicles take leadership tests - only that one specific unit (wraithguard) does. Likewise, overheat! rule doesn't say that "units in vehicles can suffer wounds" only that one particular model armed with an overheated plasmagun can die to overheat!

These are, in other words, the examples of "stated explicitly in the rule". The doom of malan'tai rule doesn't state anything explicitly - it simply says "take a leadership test", and since units inside transports don't take leadership tests, the doom's power does nothing.

If that isn't true, and units can still take leadership tests, all that stuff that causes leadership tests should affect units inside vehicles - it's not aimed at the vehicle, amirite? Same for njal's storm, units inside vehicles should take damage hits.





Sorry nids, it ain't gonna happen. ;)

EDIT: Just to illustrate, using Netfreakk's logic:

5th ed rulebook states that units can't assault on the turn they arrive via deep strike.

Vanguard have a special rule Heroic Intervention that enables them to assault on the turn they arrive from deep strike.

Therefore, units can assault on the turn they arrive via deep strike.



The truth; no they can't. Only vanguard can, because they have a special rule that explicitly states that they can assault when arriving from deep strike. Wraithguard can take leadership tests while inside transports because they have a special rule that states that. Same for overheat!, it can deliver a wound on one particular model because it's explicitly stated in its special rule that it can.

This still doesn't change the general rule that, no, you can't put wounds on models in transports, no you can't make models in transports do leadership tests, and no, you can't assault when arriving out of deepstrike. There are exceptions, but the general rule still applies unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Netfreakk
27-01-2010, 05:24
If units don't take leadership test, why do wraithguards need to take leadership tests when embarked in a vehicle.

edit* could you find the pg# for that rule I would like to read that section please.

edit 2*
The only one I could find is on Pg63 BRB
"Vehicles never take Morale checks for any reason. It is assumed that in all cases the vehicle's crew has unshakeable faith in their vehicle and their orders. ..."

Doesn't say anything about embarked units. So no it doesn't give permissive allowance towards embarked units.

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 05:33
Units inside vehicles don't take leadership, morale, or pinning tests of any kind.

Hence, the power doesn't affect the units inside vehicles unless that is stated explicitly in the rule description.

The wraithguard & overheat! special rules are exactly that - special rules. In them, it's obviously explicitly stated that they do apply. Never is it said that it's a general rule that units in vehicles take leadership tests - only that one specific unit (wraithguard) does. Likewise, overheat! rule doesn't say that "units in vehicles can suffer wounds" only that one particular model armed with an overheated plasmagun can die to overheat!

These are, in other words, the examples of "stated explicitly in the rule". The doom of malan'tai rule doesn't state anything explicitly. By that logic, all that stuff that causes leadership tests should affect units inside vehicles - it's not aimed at the vehicle, amirite? Same for njal's storm, units inside vehicles should take damage hits.





Sorry nids, it ain't gonna happen. ;)

zSO tell me where does it say that exactly? Are you just spouting what you hear everyone else say or are you quoting this from some FAQ? The Wraithgaurd had to be FAQed so whats to say that DoM is not the same?

PG8 BRB: Tests made agianst the LD characteristic (like morale tests) are different from other tests. . . ."

SO what sto say since a LD test and Morale test is different from all other tests that it can not be taken against units in transports?

Netfreakk
27-01-2010, 05:35
Using Giganthrax's logic

Spirit leech is a special rule, thus allowing this. Why are we debating then?

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 05:49
Using Giganthrax's logic

Spirit leech is a special rule, thus allowing this. Why are we debating then?
Point and game. Special rules allow special circumstances so I am good.

Requiet
27-01-2010, 08:19
I kinda skipped the last half of this page out of seeing the same thing too often but has anybody just sat back and looked at the whole, unit in a tin can rules for a second and actually thought WHY things arent affect by guns and spells that require LoS... A tank is just full cover, you cant see the model you cant shoot it, but something that isnt targeting you but just lays a blanket should be fairly self explanatory. Only thing against this train of thought I would say is barage weapons on an open topped vehicle...

Now back to the original topic. I havent yet tried the new dex, first chance coming up friday against a fully mech eldar list with eldrad and yriel. I plan on a full retinue swarmlord for yriel and crew but eldrad I fully intend to have an epic showdown with Dr. Doom versus the Time Fairy that is Ulthran... Ill be sure to tell you how all aspects of the lovely doctor do if this thread is still around

Scriboergosum
27-01-2010, 08:33
This thread has obviously gone in a different direction by now, but instead of starting a new thread on the subject, I thought I'd voice my opinion in here.

To me, the Doom of Malan'tai is almost a gamebreaking unit. Sure, you need a bit of luck to get him to work, but not that much, and even if you fail you're out very few points.

Here's my take on the guy:
First of all, you'll need a mycetic spore to drop him down. Any other tactic with this guy is ridiculous, and it seems most agree with me there. You obviously place this spore right next to multiple enemy infantry units. The mycetic spore can scatter, but has a 1/3 chance of not doing so, and if scatter occurs, it will still stay in place if the scatter would land it in impassable terrain/enemy models. Plus, assuming the spore is the size of a droppod, it's pretty big, and being able to place the Doom 2'' away from it means in most cases you won't have to place him far from where you intended.

Assuming you get the Doom more or less where you want him, he'll probably be in range of 2-4 enemy infantry units. This won't be hard in most 1500-2000 point games, unless the enemy is completely spread out over the board. After all, with the Doom being on a 1,5'' base, you're basically laying down a 13,5'' template for what comes next.
His Spirit Leech-power. Leadership tests on 3D6. That's an average roll of 10,5, meaning the average unit will take 2-4 wounds (Ld of 7 or 8).
Basically, when it comes time for the Doom to shoot, he'll probably have at the very least 8 wounds, and therefore S8 for his Large blast, AP1 weapon.
He shoots this and with a BS of 4, will suffer little scatter, easily earning back the D3 wounds he takes from using the power, because the high strength and low AP spells death for any target.

The turn ends, but already he's caused quite a bit of damage, his low cost probably already payed for, even with the price of the spore added.
Your opponent feels a strong urge to kill this thing quick, but with many wounds and a 3++ save, small arms fire won't do it. Assaulting with a large squad, drowning him in attacks, or a power fist/klaw or similarly armed squad, killing him with ID wounds is a possibility, but then he'd have to move them within 6'' of the Doom, and in his own shooting phase suffer another leech attack, quite possibly cripling his chances in the coming assault phase.
The most viable solution seems to be shooting with ID-causing weapons, but with the 3++ save, your opponent is going to have to allocate many such weapons to this guy, unless he gets in a lucky shot.
Bottom line is he has to kill him now, or suffer another round of first leech attack and then the, by now, S10 AP1 large blast fired with BS4.

The point of my rant is this:
When fielding the Doom, you have to get lucky for him to work. If he scatters far away from the enemy, or he just gets real lucky with his Ld-test on 3D6, you lose your investment quickly. However, it's just 130 points, so you'll live. You gambled and lost, but the stakes weren't high.
On the other hand, if you're lucky with him, he will earn back his points many times over in a round or two, the enemy will have to focus a disproportionate amount of firepower or manpower to down him, all the while letting the rest of the Nids survive and close in.

The loss you suffer when unlucky is insignificant compared to the huge damage you'll do when lucky. I don't mind heavily luck-based units, but the penalty when unlucky has to somewhat match the gain when lucky. It does not with the Doom of Malan'tai, not even close.
I've played against him 3 times now, once he was unlucky and died quick, the two other times he alone, and I'm actually not exaggerating, turned a victory into a defeat. In one game he managed to kill 620 points worth of troops and vehicles in 2 rounds, in spite of missing completely with one of his shots.

Please don't think of this as a "Tyranidz r EZ-mode! NERF!"-speech. I don't play tournaments nor do I take the game very seriously in any other way. I just think they've managed to create a unit that is very unbalanced, which is a shame for an otherwise very interesting, if slightly flawed, codex. The only type of list that can feel somewhat safe is mech, and even that is debated.

Any thoughts on this?

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 08:40
Thank you Scriboergosum, that was extermly insightful and it is true for one unit he does thed to draw a TON of fire power. Yes he hurts the enemy badly but then it keeps the weaker nids alive to continue to eat things.

Yes he can tend to be of a dark horse but you will see people spread their units further apart when facing a tyranid army for just this reason. To me that is worth it regardless of waht others really think.

If I can force my opponent to change his tactics to deal with a new threat while maintaining my over all grand scheme of things by the Hive Mind I WILL DO IT!

Scriboergosum
27-01-2010, 09:30
I'm with you on the idea that changing the enemy's tactics is a great thing, and one that Tyranid players will be using a lot with the addition of mycetic spores, mawlocs, trygons and Infiltrate for the Genestealers.

I'm just more than a little afraid for the opponents of Tyranids. This guy wreaks havoc on infantry. An entire squad of elite troopers can disappear in one round with just one unlucky Ld-test, and there's nothing they can do to prevent it, other than hoping for the mycetic spore to scatter far away, and it needs to be really far.
I might be very pessimistic about him, but there's something about him that just seems wrong. His enormous potential for destruction is not represented in his very low price. He has a much better chance at creating mass carnage than most other units in the Tyranid codex, specifically because he can drop in and start slaughtering in the same turn.
On the other hand, raising his price too much, say to 200-250 points, which I by the way don't think is that out of touch when compared to his abilities, would leave the Tyranid player with a real problem, whenever he gets unlucky with the guy. That many points going right out the window is a rough deal.

Ideally I'd like to see his powers brought down a notch or two, say maybe making his Spirit Leech work only in the Tyranid shooting phase, making a counterassault more viable, or making it target only the nearest unit, not all within 6''.

He's a gamble, but he's bloody cheap, and that would be fair if he wasn't able to earn back his own cost and the cost of his spore 3, 4 or even 5 times over in a matter of a turn or two. No unit should be that powerful, it really messes up a game.
Granted, I played a non-mechanized Blood Angels army against him, so there were plenty of juicy targets; Marines, Scouts and Terminators to leech and then tanks and the odd Dreadnought to shoot at, if there wasn't another Terminator squad nearby just begging to get that S8-10 AP1 large blast thrown at them.
Marines and other elite armies will most likely suffer the worst losses in the turn it arrives, each model being worth more points, but other armies will have just as hard a time killing this thing, and so the Doom can mess them up too.

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that a single ID wound getting past that 3++ save kills it, 10 wounds or 1, but I've done the math on that, and even when you have marines shooting at it, each shot only has an 18,5 % chance of killing the bugger.

This is probably my real beef with the Doom. Using it is almost solely a matter of luck, not skill, and the same can be said about killing it.
The difference? If the Tyranid player is the unlucky one, he loses 130 points. If he's the lucky one, however, he can pretty easily kill 300+ points worth of enemy troops on the first turn, and 150+ points worth on any following turn he survives to see, no matter the army he's facing, I'd wager.
Spirit leech is incredible, and a S8-10 AP1 Large blast is going to be absurdly damaging to any army.

Goddamn, that was another rant. I've given this guy a lot of thought, as you might be able to tell ;) I just can't help but feel like the designers don't realise what they've done on this one. I hope future games will prove me wrong.

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 10:04
Well in 3 games mine have not killed to may models. Of course I have played against Daemons with their Invul saves which helped ( and that bloody Fatewaever!!!!). Just change your tactics to start out. spread your models out and try this number, move the units that were effected last round 6" away in different directions and you will be ok. Yes he is a pain to deal with but so what, so are your Drop pod Sternguard to a point.

Giganthrax
27-01-2010, 14:41
If units don't take leadership test, why do wraithguards need to take leadership tests when embarked in a vehicle.
Because they're an exception whose special rule explicitly states that they do. I said that already. :)

SO what sto say since a LD test and Morale test is different from all other tests that it can not be taken against units in transports?
They can't, because until they disembark, embarked units are not even on the table for all sakes and purposes (except for the purpose of shooting out of fire points). They cannot be targeted in any way, or affected by area of effect stuff unless it's specifically stated in the rule they can. This means they can't be shot at, can't be assaulted, can't be forced to perform any leadership, pinning, or morale tests, can't have psychic powers cast at them, and are just generally protected from everything until their transport is busted.

Spirit leech is a special rule, thus allowing this. Why are we debating then?
It's a special rule, but it doesn't allow it, because never in its rules does it state that it does allow it. When a unit is inside a transport, it's for all sakes and purposes not even on the table and cannot be targeted/affected by any rule (special or otherwise) unless it specifically states in that rule that it does.





But anyway, because there is no rule stating that you can't shoot anti-tank fire at units inside transports, we can safely assume that I can just ignore the chimera and instead target my demolisher pieplate at the veterans squad embarked inside. I mean, why not, there's no rule stating that units inside transports can't be shot at with anti-vehicle fire, amirite?

Or, why not, I could also use my th/ss termies to assault the veterans inside a vendetta, rather then bothering with the vendetta, no? There's no rule stating that you can't assault units inside transports, amirite? ;)

The point of all this is that transports, as stated on page 66, "provide speed and protection". Unless a special rule specifically claims that this does not work in the case of transports, we'll just have to assume that transports offer protection from that.

Otherwise, every single general AOE effect that affects units will then hit the units inside transports. Njal's storm is a great example of this, and you still haven't said anything about that.

R3con
27-01-2010, 14:52
Well my army is not scared of the doom. One round of fire from an exorcist should be able to remove it from the table quite quickly!

Remember exorcists are d6 shots at st8 ap1

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 14:55
Because they're an exception whose special rule explicitly states that they do. I said that already. :)

They can't, because until they disembark, embarked units are not even on the table for all sakes and purposes (except for the purpose of shooting out of fire points). They cannot be targeted in any way, or affected by area of effect stuff unless it's specifically stated in the rule they can. This means they can't be shot at, can't be assaulted, can't be forced to perform any leadership, pinning, or morale tests, can't have psychic powers cast at them, and are just generally protected from everything until their transport is busted.

It's a special rule, but it doesn't allow it, because never in its rules does it state that it does allow it. When a unit is inside a transport, it's for all sakes and purposes not even on the table and cannot be targeted/affected by any rule (special or otherwise) unless it specifically states in that rule that it does.

If it DID allow it, then every single area of effect spell that affects units would also work this way, as I said earlier. Therefore, Njal's storm,

In fact, because there is no rule stating that you can't shoot anti-tank fire at units inside transports, we can safely assume that I can just ignore the chimera and instead target my demolisher pieplate at the veterans squad embarked inside. I mean, why not, there's no rule stating that units inside transports can't be shot at with anti-vehicle fire, amirite?

Or, why not, I could also use my th/ss termies to assault the veterans inside a vendetta, rather then bothering with the vendetta, no? There's no rule stating that you can't assault units inside transports, amirite? ;)

The point of all this is that transports, as stated on page 66, "provide speed and protection". Unless a special rule specifically claims that this does not work in the case of transports, we'll just have to assume that transports offer protection from that.

Otherwise, every single general AOE effect that affects units will then hit the units inside transports. Njal's storm is a great example of this, and you still haven't said anything about that.

So tell me if the Unit is in the transport but not on the table and I can measure to the transport in order to effect units embarked in said transport why can Spirit leech not work? The Dooms Spirit Leech says "Every non-vehicle unit within 6". . . " Well if I can measure from the Doom to your transport and I AM allowed by the BRB to measure the distance in order to determine if the unit is within the 6" then how does it not work?

Oddly enough Spirit Leech does not say the unit HAS to be on the table in this case and since the rule for measuring effects that effect units in transports is also on Page 66 what rule states that I have to say anything else?

Your going to play the same old song with no other facts to back you up then please just stop.

For the red highlight: Tell me WHERE you got this info from? Last I checked the BRB NEVER said anything about this? COuld that mean that they CAN TAKE LEADERSHIP TEST! Possibly ;)

As for Nyjal's storm it required a target last time i checked does it not? I would have to look it up. . ..

I bolded part of what you said to show your ignorance.

1) While in a transport your unit counts as if embarked into a building. The ONLY difference is that they can not be effected by templates like a building can. That is in the BRB actually.
2) List of things that do not effect units that are "embarked"; Shooting, Being Targeted, Assaulted, Psychic Powers (Unless noted other wise), Template Weapons.

I do not see Special Abilities on that list. . .WAIT! if the special ability does none of those. . . OMG! The it WOULD get through!

Yes I am being a sarcastic dolt but maybe it will teach you to read into things more.

Once again the argument is still that. "Is your unit considered to be in the transport regardless of where they really are?" If yes then Spirit Leech works.

BTW you can not assault a unit in a transport because you would need 2 things.
1) Los to said unit. The transport blocks this.
2) The ability to TARGET the unit to DECLARE the Assault.

Last I checked you can not get either of those. Dam did I debunk you again. I am sorry. . . well not really. . .


Well my army is not scared of the doom. One round of fire from an exorcist should be able to remove it from the table quite quickly!

Remember exorcists are d6 shots at st8 ap1

YES! Someone with sense!

vampiremusic
27-01-2010, 15:00
Yeah... THE DOOOOOOOOM!!!! It is probably one of the best units that I have ever played with. It's always groovy to pod him next to multiple grot units. :)

Well last time i played with the doom he took out 900 points of orks before dieing to a powerclaw it started off with one big combat witha vemonthrope and the swarm lrod but then the guy got depsprate to kill them so charge everything into them then the dieing started in the units loosing 4-7 a turn

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 15:02
Well last time i played with the doom he took out 900 points of orks before dieing to a powerclaw it started off with one big combat witha vemonthrope and the swarm lrod but then the guy got depsprate to kill them so charge everything into them then the dieing started in the units loosing 4-7 a turn

Sounds like a HORRID tactical decision. He chose his fate so I can not argue against a win for the Nids, at least we have a way to stop all those dang Orks from chargin into our lines for a bit right?

vampiremusic
27-01-2010, 15:10
Sounds like a HORRID tactical decision. He chose his fate so I can not argue against a win for the Nids, at least we have a way to stop all those dang Orks from chargin into our lines for a bit right?

well it ork wat u think they would not just charge no btu there orks they charge of ourse they sealed they own doom

Giganthrax
27-01-2010, 15:43
So tell me if the Unit is in the transport but not on the table and I can measure to the transport in order to effect units embarked in said transport why can Spirit leech not work? The Dooms Spirit Leech says "Every non-vehicle unit within 6". . . " Well if I can measure from the Doom to your transport and I AM allowed by the BRB to measure the distance in order to determine if the unit is within the 6" then how does it not work?
You can measure, but it doesn't say in the rule that the spirit leech can affect units in transports. That's a BIG thing you know. If something like that is allowed, it has to be stated explicitly in the rule, and here, it isn't.

Measuring from the transport's hull is used for other things, really, such as to see whether the wraithguard are close enough to the farseer not to test for stupidity and the like, or to determine the range of a teleport homer carried by the embarked unit, or to determine the range of pedro cantor's aura when he's driving around in a razorback, etc.

Oddly enough Spirit Leech does not say the unit HAS to be on the table in this case and since the rule for measuring effects that effect units in transports is also on Page 66 what rule states that I have to say anything else?
Dude, orbital bombardment rules don't SAY that a unit HAS to be on the table to be hit with orbital bombardment, but that doesn't mean you can hit units that are in reserve with it. Orbital bombardment isn't a shooting attack per se, it's a special rule, hence I can hit your trygon with an orbital bombardment while it's still in reserve, amirite? Or hit your embarked ork boyz in their trukk? It's a special rule, hey. :)

Your going to play the same old song with no other facts to back you up then please just stop.
I don't have to fall back on anything or come up with any new songs, dude. :) Units in transports gain protection from all effects unless it's specifically stated in a rule that it still affects them even when they're in a transport. It's the way the game works.

YOU'RE the one here trying to convince me that, for no reason apart from the fact you badly want it, this one particular rule that works exactly the same as a bunch of area of effect rules out there should, for some reason, affect units inside transports.

And your "debunking" of my argument hasn't debunked anything. You expect a unit inside a transport to take leadership test, and yet the unit isn't even on the table for all sakes and purposes as it can't be targeted or affected in any way safe for those specified in the rules. The only thing you can affect is their transport, and the transport is a vehicle and hence doesn't take leadership tests.

As for Nyjal's storm it required a target last time i checked does it not?
No. It says, "unengaged enemy units within 12 inches". So, by your logic, we can safely assume Njal can slaughter units in transports by standing nearby?




BTW, let's assume you're right and spirit leech can affect units inside transports, what about cover saves? :)

The doom rule says that units can't take armor saves, which means they can take cover saves as well as invulnerable saves. This raises two questions;

1) If spirit leech hits a bunch of tac marines inside a rhino, what cover save do they gain from being in a rhino? A 2+ cover save would be in order, no? Seeing as they're COMPLETELY obscured. :)

2) Moreso, if an ork boy could avoid getting killed by spirit leech by hiding behind a tree or lying facedown on the ground and holding his hands over his head - if THAT can stop spirit leech - then why would spirit leech be capable of passing straight through a ceramite hull of a rhino or a land raider? :)




TBH, you really made up a big nice logic to back up your belief, but let's get serious.

Unless GW confirms in a FAQ that Spirit Leech affects units inside vehicle (which they wont, and which it doesn't), I'm afraid nobody in their right mind is going to let you do that, and then definitely not with a unit that can deep strike safely AND costs only 90 points. I mean, if you can't see how that has a negative effect (both fun-wise and tactics-wise) on the game, then there's really nothing more to say to you.

Orangecoke
27-01-2010, 16:25
one thing that bugs me about GW (no pun intended) - this is clearly an issue that needs clarifying...even a noob like me is encountering this debate online in the major discussion forums. Why not start a FAQ page with a couple of key clarifications, and ammend it as needed when more come up? It's not like they get "1 chance only" to issue an online FAQ. Just do it, tell people how the rule should work so they can get back to having fun. I think Privateer does a phenomenally better job at this, and GW has been around longer. It's bizarre.

Netfreakk
27-01-2010, 16:34
You can measure, but it doesn't say in the rule that the spirit leech can affect units in transports. That's a BIG thing you know. If something like that is allowed, it has to be stated explicitly in the rule, and here, it isn't.

Well, the BRB doesn't specifically state you can use meltas on vehicles either, but I don't see how you can dispute that. Spirit leech however abides by all the general rules.



Measuring from the transport's hull is used for other things, really, such as to see whether the wraithguard are close enough to the farseer not to test for stupidity and the like, or to determine the range of a teleport homer carried by the embarked unit, or to determine the range of pedro cantor's aura when he's driving around in a razorback, etc.

That doesn't make any sense. You're allowing one unit to do it, but not others even though the mechanics are the same. Seems a bit double standard without basis.



Dude, orbital bombardment rules don't SAY that a unit HAS to be on the table to be hit with orbital bombardment, but that doesn't mean you can hit units that are in reserve with it. Orbital bombardment isn't a shooting attack per se, it's a special rule, hence I can hit your trygon with an orbital bombardment while it's still in reserve, amirite? Or hit your embarked ork boyz in their trukk? It's a special rule, hey. :)


I like this one the best. It's due to the fact that Orbital bombardment uses a blase template which falls under the restrictions of a blast weapon. This makes it impossible for it to hit units in vehicles as there are no models for the template to hit, which is not the case with Spirit leech. :rolleyes:

Also, you could try to hit the trygon, but after the template leaves the board it goes follows the rules of shooting where it doesn't do anything. You're logic is flawed, as it would potentially allow you to place the Doom model before it arrives from reserves next to your opponents models and start using it's ability. Which is not what I'm saying.

Once again with the Ork Boyz and trukk, templates need models.



I don't have to fall back on anything or come up with any new songs, dude. :) Units in transports gain protection from all effects unless it's specifically stated in a rule that it still affects them even when they're in a transport. It's the way the game works.

Yea, I know you're not trying to engage in a civilized debate, rather you're just spouting the same reasoning which I've tried to dispute.



YOU'RE the one here trying to convince me that, for no reason apart from the fact you badly want it, this one particular rule that works exactly the same as a bunch of area of effect rules out there should, for some reason, affect units inside transports.

Actually I'm NOT trying to convince YOU, I'm trying to make it so people who read the forums don't get confused by your interpretation and will judge it by viewing two perspectives.



And your "debunking" of my argument hasn't debunked anything. You expect a unit inside a transport to take leadership test, and yet the unit isn't even on the table for all sakes and purposes as it can't be targeted or affected in any way safe for those specified in the rules. The only thing you can affect is their transport, and the transport is a vehicle and hence doesn't take leadership tests.

Hmm... You keep stating this, I'm pretty sure I've given evidence that it can be done. It seems that you're choosing to ignore anything that I'm writing and keep writing your same perspective without any further input. I can't make you read, thus this isn't really a debate.



No. It says, "unengaged enemy units within 12 inches". So, by your logic, we can safely assume Njal can slaughter units in transports by standing nearby?

Yes.



BTW, let's assume you're right and spirit leech can affect units inside transports, what about cover saves? :)

The doom rule says that units can't take armor saves, which means they can take cover saves as well as invulnerable saves. This raises two questions;

1) If spirit leech hits a bunch of tac marines inside a rhino, what cover save do they gain from being in a rhino? A 2+ cover save would be in order, no? Seeing as they're COMPLETELY obscured. :)

2) Moreso, if an ork boy could avoid getting killed by spirit leech by hiding behind a tree or lying facedown on the ground and holding his hands over his head - if THAT can stop spirit leech - then why would spirit leech be capable of passing straight through a ceramite hull of a rhino or a land raider? :)


It isn't considered a shooting attack, thus you do not gain the benefit of cover saves which are used for shooting instances. Seems to be covered.



TBH, you really made up a big nice logic to back up your belief, but let's get serious.

Unless GW confirms in a FAQ that Spirit Leech affects units inside vehicle (which they wont, and which it doesn't), I'm afraid nobody in their right mind is going to let you do that, and then definitely not with a unit that can deep strike safely AND costs only 90 points. I mean, if you can't see how that has a negative effect (both fun-wise and tactics-wise) on the game, then there's really nothing more to say to you.

I don't know if that's in reference to me, if so then I apologize for stating that you're not read my posts. But yes, let's get serious, this is a RaW debate, you can play it however you want with your friends no one will stop you, but there are instances where there are over powered units for little points. Fun is also relative and tactics will change to compensate it so your point of view on that subject is moot. I guess there is nothing else to talk about if you're not discussing RaW and want to play it how you want with no consideration to the rules.

Thanks for reading.

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 17:52
Well lets put it this way. Ther thread MADE for this in the rules section has come to a close. I will link that in one sec. We have found that Doom does indeed effect units in transports not because the models are on the table but the unit itself is on the table.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4339982#post4339982

Enjoy.

IMHO Netfreakk is amazing and you should follow the advice and what is being stated by him/her.

totgeboren
27-01-2010, 18:02
All the abilities and rules referenced to support the view that the Doom does effect embarked units are directed the wrong way.

All have a unit inside the transport being able to effect a unit outside the transport.

For example, Wraithguards and Wraithsight. The rules for Wraithguards say they have Wraithsight. The drawback of Wraithsight can be ignored if they have a friendly psyker within 6" at the start of the turn.
It is the Wraithguards that target the psyker, not the psyker that targets the embarked unit (since that is impossible).

Several faqs have allowed units inside a transport to target either the transport they are themselves inside, or a unit they have joined that is inside the same transport.

It could be argued that psykers inside transports are not affected by the Shadow either, but the Shadow targets any enemy psychic tests within 12". It does not target the psyker. Same goes for the Psychic Hood.

There is still not one example of an ability being able to effect embarked enemy units that does not have this clearly spelled out.

I don't understand why this would be any different?

For example, if the Chaos Land Raider did not have the Assault Ramp special rule, I could not claim that my Chaos Marines could assault out of my Land Raider after it has moved.
I might think they should be able to, like I think the Land Raider should have the Machine Spirit special rule, but if it does not allow me to explicitly circumvent the standard rules, I can't do it. Even if others with similar units can.

I can't just claim "Oh, well I think the designers should have allowed this, so I'll play it like i think it should have been written".
I can however ask my opponent if he would be ok with some house rules to amend the situation. Like let me have a machine spirit for my Chaos Land Rider and you get to target units inside the Land Raider with your DoM.

Netfreakk
27-01-2010, 18:29
All the abilities and rules referenced to support the view that the Doom does effect embarked units are directed the wrong way.

All have a unit inside the transport being able to effect a unit outside the transport.

For example, Wraithguards and Wraithsight. The rules for Wraithguards say they have Wraithsight. The drawback of Wraithsight can be ignored if they have a friendly psyker within 6" at the start of the turn.
It is the Wraithguards that target the psyker, not the psyker that targets the embarked unit (since that is impossible).

Several faqs have allowed units inside a transport to target either the transport they are themselves inside, or a unit they have joined that is inside the same transport.

It could be argued that psykers inside transports are not affected by the Shadow either, but the Shadow targets any enemy psychic tests within 12". It does not target the psyker. Same goes for the Psychic Hood.


I was using the wraithguard example to illustrate how an unit has the capability of doing a LD test. I used the example of how units embarked in a building are able to take wounds. Or units in transport takes wounds. ie: templates for buildings, gets hot! for vehicles. These illustrate how units are capable of taking wounds even though they are embarked. Please don't misquote what I've wrote, thank you.



There is still not one example of an ability being able to effect embarked enemy units that does not have this clearly spelled out.

gets hot! rule for one.



I don't understand why this would be any different?

For example, if the Chaos Land Raider did not have the Assault Ramp special rule, I could not claim that my Chaos Marines could assault out of my Land Raider after it has moved.
I might think they should be able to, like I think the Land Raider should have the Machine Spirit special rule, but if it does not allow me to explicitly circumvent the standard rules, I can't do it. Even if others with similar units can.

I can't just claim "Oh, well I think the designers should have allowed this, so I'll play it like i think it should have been written".
I can however ask my opponent if he would be ok with some house rules to amend the situation. Like let me have a machine spirit for my Chaos Land Rider and you get to target units inside the Land Raider with your DoM.

I agree, you don't add special rules, but if per example the Chaos Land Raider did have an assault ramp, but no description would you use it like any other assault ramp? I would assume, yes you would as logic would dictate that it would follow all the rules that an assault ramp is capable of doing. In the same respect we can conclude due to using the general rules that I've listed and that other people have contributed that Spirit Leech does indeed abide by the rules and is legal per RaW.

totgeboren
27-01-2010, 18:56
I was using the wraithguard example to illustrate how an unit has the capability of doing a LD test. .... Please don't misquote what I've wrote, thank you.

Wraithsight is not an Ld test...



gets hot! rule for one.


Get hot! allow a model to attack itself. Same with Perils of the Warp. These in no way set a precedent for allowing a model to attack an enemy model in a transport.
I have no problem with allowing friendlies to interact with embarked units, as long as both parts are inside the same transport or have some special rule that allow it to interact with the unit inside the transport.



I agree, you don't add special rules, but if per example the Chaos Land Raider did have an assault ramp, but no description would you use it like any other assault ramp? I would assume, yes you would as logic would dictate that it would follow all the rules that an assault ramp is capable of doing. In the same respect we can conclude due to using the general rules that I've listed and that other people have contributed that Spirit Leech does indeed abide by the rules and is legal per RaW.

Until an FAQ was released, I would ask my opponent if he is ok with the Assault Ramp of my Land Raider to work as the Assault Ramp of the loyalists.
Same as I asked my opponents if it was ok if my Terminators could assault after firing their combi-bolters with the 3.5 Chaos Codex.

Those rules did allow them to shoot heavy weapons and assault, but said nothing about rapid-fire. It felt like the intent was that they should be able to do it, but they rules did not allow it, even though loyalists with similar weapons could. My opponents were all kind enough to allow it, but that was making up our own rules to cover for something we saw as incorrect rules.

You can conclude that since units inside transports can affect the DoM, the DoM should be able to affect them back. This might feel reasonable, but it goes against just about every ruling so far from GW regarding enemy units in transports.

If you and you opponent think this is an oversight, feel free to play it like that, but please don't get mad an an opponent that thinks it sounds strange.

I know you have pointed out many example that you feel support your position, but I don't see how any could work as a precedent.

Considering how powerful, cheap and easy to use this particular model is, I honestly don't even think the intent is for it to be able to effect embarked enemy units.

R3con
27-01-2010, 20:04
YES! Someone with sense!

Now the rest of the army scares the crap out of my ST 3 T 3 sisters....

magicmonkey
27-01-2010, 20:52
Even if he can't hit units in vehicles he is still really over powered and cheap
i mean in one battle of mine he took on 17 genestealers and a broodlord and won :D.
He got knocked down to one wound and then the look on my opponents face :eek: when he absorbed back upto 8 from his stealers and gaunts and then beat them in combat and got upto 10 wounds was priceless:p.

MystheDevourer
27-01-2010, 22:41
Wraithsight is not an Ld test...So what test to you do again for Psychic Powers? What does the FAQ say if they get perilel. . . wait it says that the transport is blow up as well.




Get hot! allow a model to attack itself. Same with Perils of the Warp. These in no way set a precedent for allowing a model to attack an enemy model in a transport.
I have no problem with allowing friendlies to interact with embarked units, as long as both parts are inside the same transport or have some special rule that allow it to interact with the unit inside the transport.Um Question. If your shooting a Plasmagun, and a plasma pistol while in a transport, and you roll 2 1's, what happens?



You can conclude that since units inside transports can affect the DoM, the DoM should be able to affect them back. This might feel reasonable, but it goes against just about every ruling so far from GW regarding enemy units in transports. Are the units within 6" of DoM?
Well they are embarked. . . Ok if thats the case measure to the hull because that is what the BRB says to do when involving Embarked units.
Well can DoM effect units that are embarked?
The ability states "non-vehicle units within 6". . . "
Does it target? What about it being a Shooting attack? Does it cause a morale test? What aobut being a template? Does it require you to make a Psychic Test making it a Psychic Power?
No to all. Just a special ability that says "Every enemy non-vehicle unit"

So what is the problem again. If It did any of those I would INSTANTLY say no to it but interestingly enough it does not.



If you and you opponent think this is an oversight, feel free to play it like that, but please don't get mad an an opponent that thinks it sounds strange.

I know you have pointed out many example that you feel support your position, but I don't see how any could work as a precedent.

Considering how powerful, cheap and easy to use this particular model is, I honestly don't even think the intent is for it to be able to effect embarked enemy units.

Over all intent matters little to me. My gaming group has excepted this unit andhtey have changed their style to accommodate it.

Giganthrax
28-01-2010, 01:54
Well, the BRB doesn't specifically state you can use meltas on vehicles either, but I don't see how you can dispute that. Spirit leech however abides by all the general rules.
The same general rules that also seem to show that Njal's storm can kill units inside transports?

Nah, I don't buy it.

That doesn't make any sense. You're allowing one unit to do it, but not others even though the mechanics are the same. Seems a bit double standard without basis.
Again, you're trying to twist the rules. From all we've seen so far in the game, it just doesn't work both ways. You can look for loopholes all you want. I'd bet ya a beer no judge in his right mind would allow you to purposefully damage units that aren't even physically on the table (ie. units in transports), and I'm 100% sure GW didn't intend it, either.

It isn't considered a shooting attack, thus you do not gain the benefit of cover saves which are used for shooting instances. Seems to be covered.
I'm reading rules for cover saves right now, and it doesn't say anything about it having to be a shooting attack in order to get a cover save. It states explicitly that you cannot take cover saves in assault, but apart from that there's nothing about cover saves being limited only to shooting.

Vehicles exploding are also not considered to be a shooting attack, and yet you can still take cover from that, too. It's obvious, even, because "flying debris" is mentioned in the cover saves rule.

The only cover save+shooting thingie comes from the facing part, but even that is ignored if models are standing inside terrain (they get a cover save no matter what side they're being shot from). Hence, when models take wounds from stuff like Njal's storm and Doom's ability, there's absolutely no reason to assume that they somehow can't take cover saves if they're standing inside terrain.

Therefore, there's gotha be a real nice cover save for standing inside a vehicle, no? :)

I don't know if that's in reference to me, if so then I apologize for stating that you're not read my posts. But yes, let's get serious, this is a RaW debate, you can play it however you want with your friends no one will stop you, but there are instances where there are over powered units for little points. Fun is also relative and tactics will change to compensate it so your point of view on that subject is moot. I guess there is nothing else to talk about if you're not discussing RaW and want to play it how you want with no consideration to the rules.

Thanks for reading.
It's not directed specifically at you, and yes, I've read your posts.

I understand your viewpoint and I understand what you're trying to say. I simply feel it's wrong to take what is obviously a semi-loophole in the RaW (essentially, what you're basing your entire argument on is that GW doesn't say explicitly that units inside transports are safe until the transport is destroyed, even though that's their very purpose and even the flavor text states so) and try to turn it into something that can end up making players get terribly wrong ideas.

(Also, I myself am NOT complaining about the "overpoweredness" of the Doom, even if it really was capable of damaging units inside transports. I play marines. At the very worst, I would be taking 3 wounds from it as most of my units have ld9 and ld10 anyway. What I'm complaining about is the sheer amount of annoyance and arguments this could produce.)

Scriboergosum
28-01-2010, 09:15
(Also, I myself am NOT complaining about the "overpoweredness" of the Doom, even if it really was capable of damaging units inside transports. I play marines. At the very worst, I would be taking 3 wounds from it as most of my units have ld9 and ld10 anyway. What I'm complaining about is the sheer amount of annoyance and arguments this could produce.)

You have apparently not noticed that the Ld-test is with 3D6, so at the very worst you'll suffer 9 wounds with Ld 9, and on average you'll lose 1,5 wounds for every Ld 9-unit in range of this guy, and that's every shooting phase, not just his own.
As a marine player, you should be very afraid of this guy. Every wound he sucks out of your guys is going to be much more expensive for you, than if you'd been playing many other races. Just imagine him standing close to, say, a tactical squad, a devastator squad and a terminator squad. Three squads relatively close together isn't unrealistic, especially in a shooty SM-army. With a few unlucky Ld-rolls you'll have lost a couple of hundred points to this guy before he even gets to shot his psychich power at you, the high strength, low AP, large blast killy thing. Before you have your turn again, with just a little bit of luck for the Nid player, you've lost 3-400 points.

You might not be complaining about the "overpoweredness" of the Doom, but I am :D
Nah, just think they made some sort of mistake here. The real problem is that he becomes extremely effective and cost-efficient with a little luck, and he requires next to no skill to use, and there's not a lot your opponent can do about it, if he's in a drop pod. He can kill an extreme amount of troops in the turn he arrives even before the opponent gets a chance to kill him.
The only reliable defense against this for the opponent is to either spread out a lot, which is a bad thing to do against the Nids, cause you'll get into CC a lot easier, or bunch up in one place, so at least he can't drop down in the middle of your army. This, however, requires an annoying amount of micromanaging the placement of your troops.

meanmachine
28-01-2010, 09:37
can doom kill 2 obliterators that rolled a 14 or does each model only take 1 wound max

Orktavius
28-01-2010, 09:38
wasn't this debate pretty much answered by the FAQ ruling regarding farseers affecting units in transports? IE they can't

Nuage
28-01-2010, 09:56
can doom kill 2 obliterators that rolled a 14 or does each model only take 1 wound maxYes. The unit suffer X wounds, where X is the amount by witch they failed the test.


wasn't this debate pretty much answered by the FAQ ruling regarding farseers affecting units in transports? IE they can'tPlease, please, can we stop having that pointless debate here ?
Most of the arguments have already been made at least a dozen times, and everybody and his brother stated his point.
As I pointed before, if you really want to have that discussion, go to the Rules section. Here, most of the expert rules lawyers won't answer, as this is not the place - thus making the discussion even more pointless than usual.

Please ?
Thanks.

Nuage.

Minibull
28-01-2010, 11:27
Yes. The unit suffer X wounds, where X is the amount by witch they failed the test.

Nuage.

Not to pick on you Nuage, but it irks me when someone asks "is it A or B?" and they are answered with a "Yes". :-)

In the question above I would say that since it is not on the wound allocation phase, the oblit player would be allowed to put one wound on each.

Nuage
28-01-2010, 12:55
:-/

Man, shame on me, I just can't read a line, it seems...
I just misread it as something like "Can the unit suffer more than one wound per model", and that was wht I answered.

For the actual question, I don't know. In my (quite permissive) gaming group, up until now we are playing it like it was wounds just like any other wounds, and thus following the same rules, but I can't say if that's RAW or not.

Nuage.

Giganthrax
28-01-2010, 13:49
You have apparently not noticed that the Ld-test is with 3D6, so at the very worst you'll suffer 9 wounds with Ld 9, and on average you'll lose 1,5 wounds for every Ld 9-unit in range of this guy, and that's every shooting phase, not just his own.
As a marine player, you should be very afraid of this guy. Every wound he sucks out of your guys is going to be much more expensive for you, than if you'd been playing many other races. Just imagine him standing close to, say, a tactical squad, a devastator squad and a terminator squad. Three squads relatively close together isn't unrealistic, especially in a shooty SM-army. With a few unlucky Ld-rolls you'll have lost a couple of hundred points to this guy before he even gets to shot his psychich power at you, the high strength, low AP, large blast killy thing. Before you have your turn again, with just a little bit of luck for the Nid player, you've lost 3-400 points.

You might not be complaining about the "overpoweredness" of the Doom, but I am :D
Nah, just think they made some sort of mistake here. The real problem is that he becomes extremely effective and cost-efficient with a little luck, and he requires next to no skill to use, and there's not a lot your opponent can do about it, if he's in a drop pod. He can kill an extreme amount of troops in the turn he arrives even before the opponent gets a chance to kill him.
The only reliable defense against this for the opponent is to either spread out a lot, which is a bad thing to do against the Nids, cause you'll get into CC a lot easier, or bunch up in one place, so at least he can't drop down in the middle of your army. This, however, requires an annoying amount of micromanaging the placement of your troops.
Aww, shucks, you're right. I forgot it was done on 3d6. :p

Well, either way, it still can't affect units inside transports (and neither can Njal's storm) no matter what the RaW-twisting may lead people to believe. So, as always, mech is the way to avoid the worst of it. ;)

genestealer_baldric
28-01-2010, 15:03
i found out its biggest weakness last night, due to not being immunie to ID it only take a lowley melta gun and its dead so why all the big worry over it?

MystheDevourer
28-01-2010, 15:15
i found out its biggest weakness last night, due to not being immunie to ID it only take a lowley melta gun and its dead so why all the big worry over it?

Mine got Bolt of Tzeenched (sp) on last Sunday, it is not to overwpowered just overly powerful.

SideshowLucifer
28-01-2010, 15:41
I'm going to predict that it will require LoS in the FAQ wich will pretty much tak care of anything rules related to its ability to affect enemies.

That said, this guy is a beast, but one that can be counter. He is an alpha strike unit that can wipe out a unit much like Flamers, Long Fangs w/Logan in a drop pod, melta in a drop pod, etc.
A lot of those types of units trade themselves to destroy a unit, and I don't realy feel its currently over-powered. It's a tool for the nids to utilize while their non-mech army marches across the field. Just concentrate on it and it dies.

Meriwether
28-01-2010, 15:53
i found out its biggest weakness last night, due to not being immunie to ID it only take a lowley melta gun and its dead so why all the big worry over it?

I -- and others -- pointed that out a looooong time ago. I don't care if it has 10 wounds, it can still be insta-gibbed with any S8 weapon (melta gun, power fist, lascannon, most ordnance, etc.)

It is a good unit, and has to be dealt with when it hits the table, but it isn't broken specifically because of T4 and no immunity to ID.

Fanboy
28-01-2010, 16:00
Two things irritate me about this 'unit':

1. Roll three dice, if you roll badly, start removing models, sorry no armour save. This is not a strategic unit, its a no brainer or red-win-button-push here. Just like the SW JotW 24' roll your I, or start removing models (Another, red-win-button-push here).

2. It affects you (the opponent) in your turn as well, during your shooting phase. What was GW thinking?..................

Yes, it is T4, but before you get to kill it, you could have lost a number of units due to 3D6 leadership rolls, like entire 5 man veteran SM assualt units, etc. Your armour, abilities, gear means absolutely nothing, roll badly, remove models. Unbelievable. GW obviously did very game testing when thay came up with this one. Or intend to sell millions of models, once a model for this unit is released. They will, since EVERY nid army has one, which just proves the point on how unbalanced this unit is with its ability.

I am only hoping the the new BA codex has a BA power: Roll leadership on 5D6, or remove entire army. Or, roll under your I on 2D6, or sacrifice movement and assualt for 2 turns.

The Doom of Malantai and SW JotW powers are just ridiculous. Where is GW going with this? Just hoping they give the BAs something special too, just to further unbalance the game.

Unbelievable.

Yours thankfully

Fanboy

Bassline
28-01-2010, 16:07
Ok just thought of something in a unit is inside a building you can shoot at them even when they are off the board (flamer into the windows) so models can be hit when they are in limbo (off / on board at same time)

Lamoron
28-01-2010, 17:20
Soooo the rules say nothing about coversaves? Can you take them... makes no sense, but it deals wounds, and specificly states no armour...

MystheDevourer
28-01-2010, 17:32
Soooo the rules say nothing about coversaves? Can you take them... makes no sense, but it deals wounds, and specificly states no armour...
It is not a shooting attack, so cover saves are not taken the ONLY save given will be an Invul save.

having said that Daemon armies are the ones LEAST effectd by this Model.

While some complain about this let me put this into prespective Vs. the now so popular JotW.

Nids only get one of these, we can not have a total of 4 like a SW can, also the range is short so it is VERY possible to avoid it AFTER the first time it goes off. Where as JotW has a INDECENT range and hits targets in a line.

So where one can complain about te Doom effecting EVERY unit within 6" I would say it is only a threat for what, 2 turns at the most where as a Rune Priest is a threat for as long as you can not kill it?

Lamoron
28-01-2010, 17:45
Well, you get coversaves from exploding vehicles don't you? Not a shooting attack either?

totgeboren
28-01-2010, 17:51
It is not a shooting attack, so cover saves are not taken the ONLY save given will be an Invul save.


Where are you getting this from? Not the rulebook at least...

The rules for cover state that "units in or behind cover receive a cover save".

You have made up your mind about this entire issue, based on rules and rulings that don't exist.
For example all your references to Eldar powers and abilities, that when we take a look at the rules and FAQ do not rule in your favour.
Same with this, you state you only receive cover saves vs shooting, but the rulebook makes no mention of this.
On the contrary, an FAQ was required to clarify that you do not receive a cover save for wounds suffered from dangerous terrain test, even though you by default would be inside the offending terrain.

The rules for cover saves only state that they do not apply in close combat. Nothing about only applying vs shooting.

If it could even effect enemies inside a transport, they would certainly get atleast a 3+ cover save, since the DoM cant even see them.

loveless
28-01-2010, 17:53
The more I think about it, the more I really like this character. He really seems to be the ultimate glass cannon. He's pretty frail when you get right down to it - in my mind, this sets me to always err on the side of Doom when determining effects of his abilities.

I do, however, adhere to the school of "That's awesome!" as opposed to "That's fair."

Pink Horror
28-01-2010, 18:05
I don't like the Doom because with the drop pod, it is a cheap one-shot bomb that has similar potential to a deathstrike missile, and then it keeps hitting every turn until it is killed. The thing could have 1 wound, with just strength that goes up or down, and still be useful for its cost.

MystheDevourer
28-01-2010, 18:15
I don't like the Doom because with the drop pod, it is a cheap one-shot bomb that has similar potential to a deathstrike missile, and then it keeps hitting every turn until it is killed. The thing could have 1 wound, with just strength that goes up or down, and still be useful for its cost.

Sorry no thank you. I like the way it is, if you dont like it take more S8 weapons. Besides it does not always hit, you can elect to MOVE in different directions and then i have to shoose which one to chase. Simple is it not. Now stop QQing.

Scriboergosum
28-01-2010, 20:40
Sorry no thank you. I like the way it is, if you dont like it take more S8 weapons. Besides it does not always hit, you can elect to MOVE in different directions and then i have to shoose which one to chase. Simple is it not. Now stop QQing.

The problem is not avoiding this guy once he's hit the ground. That can, as you point out, easily be done.

The problem is that he drops down in the Nid players turn, and it that single player turn he can kill 3-400 % of his own cost. All it takes is a little luck, the opponent can do nothing to stop this, as it's all still happening in the Nid's turn.

Plus, while spreading out might work to avoid this one guy, it's not going to help one bit with the rest of the Tyranid horde. If this guy drops down in the middle of, behind or on the flank of your army, running away from him will mean running towards one of the best CC armies in the game. Really not a good idea, you know.

Now, if he went down like as easy as nothing, it'd be fine, but in spite of not being immune to ID, it's not as easy as all that. Do the math, a single S8+ shot from a BS4 model has an 18,5 % chance of killing him. That's not a lot, and anyone who says it is has been drinking ;)

Fine, just shoot more of the stuff at him, eventually he'll fail that one fatal inv. save. Sure, let's get cracking:

One shot, he has (as stated) 81,5 % chance of survival
Two shots, he has 66,4 % chance of survival
Three shots, 54,1 % chance of survival
Four shots, 44,1 % chance of survival...

So in order to get a better than 50 % chance of downing this guy, you have to direct at least 4 BS4 S8+ shots at this guy. Sure, most armies facing the Nids will have something like this, but they didn't bring them to shoot at one 90 point model, they brought them to down the numerous MCs that are heading their way.

Assaulting him is a joke, unless you have lots of units with Fleet or a 12'' assault range, because otherwise you'll have to get within 6'' of him in your own movement phase, and that's Spirit-sucking distance, so in your own shooting phase, the units getting ready to assault are subjecting themselves to most likely numerous wounds with no armor save, before they even get to him.

My beef with him is that he is so incredibly luck-based. We are talking about a relatively low number of rolls of the dice that determine whether he does nothing (big whoop, the Nid player is out 90 points, he still should have every chance of winning with the rest of his army) or creates total pandemonium.

Get him close to a Terminator squad, a decked out Nob mob, a brood of Tyranid Warriors, any high priced squad in the opponents army, and this is not hard with a mycetic spore, and it's all down to a few Ld-tests on 3D6.

He relies on sheer dumb luck, and it makes the difference between a 90 point unit doing nothing or being the most destructive unit of the entire game.
40k incorporates a lot of luck, but you throw so many dice, that the law of averages makes a difference in most games. Not so with this guy, and for the Nid player, the gain from a few lucky rolls is completely out of proportion to the loss from a few unlucky ones.

He's not an "Instant Win"-button, but he's almost 100 % based on luck, and there's pretty much nothing the opponent can do to counter him. He he did nothing on his first turn after dropping, at least you'd have the choice between facing him and the Trygon/Carnifex/Hive Tyrant or whatever, but as it is, he gets to ******* you up something bad right of the bat, and then you get to choose.

Landing him next to, let's say, three infantry squads, he can with the help of three bad 3D6 Ld-tests cripple or completely destroy all three units, and then turn around and shoot with his, by now, S10 AP1 Large blast, destroying a tank or an expensive elite unit.
I'm not saying he'll definately do this every game, but show me one other similarly priced unit that has the potential to do this all in one player turn. He's bloody murder personified, all it takes is luck.

Vexbane
28-01-2010, 21:05
He is very luck based and has a lot of killing power. One thing people seem to forget though is that he is in the very competitive elite slot. The same one with zoanthropes, hiveguard, deathleaper, and venomthropes. Now no Nid player is going to be without hiveguard or Zoas IMO so that leaves 1 spot open. Now we can choose to take more hive guard and zoas since we are weak vs tanks anyway or deathleaper who is good in his own right.

I am not saying that he is not an effective unit, but he will not be in every nid players list by a long shot. I think you will see more 9x hiveguard or zoas or a combination of this rather than him in a lot of tourney lists. I am going to try him out I will not lie as well as deathleaper. He is a glass cannon. 6" is not that big of an area. I think people are overreacting to his power. Any luck based unit is also not reliable. He could kill 500pts of models or he could kill none and be taken out by a single shot as well as anything in between. He is average at best due to his frailty and spot in the codex.

Scriboergosum
28-01-2010, 21:26
Yeah, I guess his being an Elite unit will hurt him. And there are armies out there that won't be as affected by him as other, same as what can be said for any other unit, I suppose.
It just really irks me the way a very low number of dice rolls makes the difference between him doing nothing and him killing a third or fourth of the enemy army. As I see it, very few armies have this kind of unit, this luck-based potential for mass destruction.
I don't mind losing to a better player, or losing to one unlucky roll at the end of a long, hard fought and very even fight, but this guy is different, and just annoys me. He seems to stick out in comparison with the rest of the Codex, with the rest of the game, save perhaps JotWW.

incarna
28-01-2010, 21:55
I’ve read 85% of the thread and after review, I think the Doom of Malan’tai is under-priced.
I see no reason why it doesn’t affect models inside vehicles.
It is neither a shooting attack nor a psychic power so no one gets cover saves.
It’s basically artillery that can be poped by str 8+

I’m building a Tyranid army and I’m sure I’ll eventually use this unit in tournaments like Ard Boyz but I think I’ll avoid using him in friendly games in order to preserve my relationships with fellow gamers.

MystheDevourer
28-01-2010, 22:50
The problem is not avoiding this guy once he's hit the ground. That can, as you point out, easily be done.

The problem is that he drops down in the Nid players turn, and it that single player turn he can kill 3-400 % of his own cost. All it takes is a little luck, the opponent can do nothing to stop this, as it's all still happening in the Nid's turn.
How is that a Bad thing? Yes its all on the luck of the roll and how they place their units but NOW they actually have to play CLOSER attention to that stuff, so in the end the opponent has to just play smarter then what they are used to or take a HUGE hit! Works for me *shrugs* Yes I am heartless.

1) Against Space Puppies, I have to deal with POSSIBLY 4 JotW and a ton of Heavy weapons. . .
2) Against Eldar, They spread out to much as is. . .
3) Aganst Necrons, THEY FRICKIN COME BACK!!!!
4) Against Orks, They are skrewed but hey they have PLENTY of extra units to go around >.>
5) Aginst SM, They have a TON of ID weapons, just shoot enough at me.
6) Against Daemons. . . Dont get me started, I got lucky to even KILL 6 of them while Fateweaver was there >.> +they have nearly LD10 across the board!
7) Against Tau, they are boned until they shoot a BS5 S10 shot IN MY FACE! or just use a Seeker Missile. . . Their choice. . .

Need I go on?


Plus, while spreading out might work to avoid this one guy, it's not going to help one bit with the rest of the Tyranid horde. If this guy drops down in the middle of, behind or on the flank of your army, running away from him will mean running towards one of the best CC armies in the game. Really not a good idea, you know.

But. . . but. . . THATS THE IDEA!!!!!


Now, if he went down like as easy as nothing, it'd be fine, but in spite of not being immune to ID, it's not as easy as all that. Do the math, a single S8+ shot from a BS4 model has an 18,5 % chance of killing him. That's not a lot, and anyone who says it is has been drinking ;)

I like drinking. . . It makes my games that much more fun >.>


Fine, just shoot more of the stuff at him, eventually he'll fail that one fatal inv. save. Sure, let's get cracking:

One shot, he has (as stated) 81,5 % chance of survival
Two shots, he has 66,4 % chance of survival
Three shots, 54,1 % chance of survival
Four shots, 44,1 % chance of survival...

So in order to get a better than 50 % chance of downing this guy, you have to direct at least 4 BS4 S8+ shots at this guy. Sure, most armies facing the Nids will have something like this, but they didn't bring them to shoot at one 90 point model, they brought them to down the numerous MCs that are heading their way.

Wahts wrong with this agains, the closer they get to my horde the happier I become!


Assaulting him is a joke, unless you have lots of units with Fleet or a 12'' assault range, because otherwise you'll have to get within 6'' of him in your own movement phase, and that's Spirit-sucking distance, so in your own shooting phase, the units getting ready to assault are subjecting themselves to most likely numerous wounds with no armor save, before they even get to him.

Captn Shrike >.> Vanguard with Powerfists. . . GG Doom GG


My beef with him is that he is so incredibly luck-based. We are talking about a relatively low number of rolls of the dice that determine whether he does nothing (big whoop, the Nid player is out 90 points, he still should have every chance of winning with the rest of his army) or creates total pandemonium.

Get him close to a Terminator squad, a decked out Nob mob, a brood of Tyranid Warriors, any high priced squad in the opponents army, and this is not hard with a mycetic spore, and it's all down to a few Ld-tests on 3D6.

He relies on sheer dumb luck, and it makes the difference between a 90 point unit doing nothing or being the most destructive unit of the entire game.
40k incorporates a lot of luck, but you throw so many dice, that the law of averages makes a difference in most games. Not so with this guy, and for the Nid player, the gain from a few lucky rolls is completely out of proportion to the loss from a few unlucky ones.

He's not an "Instant Win"-button, but he's almost 100 % based on luck, and there's pretty much nothing the opponent can do to counter him. He he did nothing on his first turn after dropping, at least you'd have the choice between facing him and the Trygon/Carnifex/Hive Tyrant or whatever, but as it is, he gets to ******* you up something bad right of the bat, and then you get to choose.

Landing him next to, let's say, three infantry squads, he can with the help of three bad 3D6 Ld-tests cripple or completely destroy all three units, and then turn around and shoot with his, by now, S10 AP1 Large blast, destroying a tank or an expensive elite unit.
I'm not saying he'll definately do this every game, but show me one other similarly priced unit that has the potential to do this all in one player turn. He's bloody murder personified, all it takes is luck.

I agree he is a Luck based factor but now that he is around people will just have to play that much mre careful, or be sucked of spirit and soul.

Zanzibarthefirst
28-01-2010, 23:03
18.6% chance fo a marine with a melta kiling him... i'd take that chance 99% of the time

totgeboren
28-01-2010, 23:13
I agree he is a Luck based factor but now that he is around people will just have to play that much mre careful, or be sucked of spirit and soul.

I think you missed the point of the post you were quoting entirely.

As Scriboergosum pointed out, you can't "play that much more careful". You can just hope for the best.

How would you play more carefully is you are facing him? If it is as you say, being inside a vehicle is no help, and neither is cover, so the only option available for you is to not be on the table, and that is hardly an adequate solution.

MystheDevourer
28-01-2010, 23:25
No the best option is to spread out more, sorry if that takes away from your curtain of fire but if you dont you will lose that curtain anyways.

Scriboergosum
29-01-2010, 00:02
Mys, as totgeboren said, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Remember at all times with this guy that he costs 90 points. With a spore to deploy him, which is the scenario we're discussing, he's up to 130 points. That's less than 1/10 of a standard size army of 1500 points.

What do you get for 8,667 % of your entire army allowance?

If things go bad: You get a unit that may do nothing at all. This is the downside of any gamble, I dare say of any Deep Striking unit.
The Nid player is out a small fraction of his army. It's a loss, but a small one, not even comparable in points to losing an average unit of Deep Striking Terminators, Storm Boyz or Raveners, which most would argue is a loss you could live with. Consequently, so is the loss of the Doom.

If things go good: You get a unit that drops down, and before the enemy even has a chance to respond (still your turn) starts handing out wounds that ignore armor saves. Not to a single unit, but to anyone in range that isn't a vehicle. Afterward, still before the enemy can respond you get a, by now probably, high S, AP1 Large blast at BS4. More death and destruction.
When your opponent gets his turn, he's now faced with two options:
1) Throw disproportionate amounts of firepower and/or manpower at this one model (remember, 90 points worth) and in the process allow most of the rest of the army (more than 90 %) to go relatively free, and hop for the best. As anyone who plays against marines (which is everyone, eh? ;)) knows, 3+ are not impossible, but can be extremely annoying.
2) Run away into the arms of the waiting Tyranid horde. This not only brings a fatal CC-hell closer, it also hampers his coming shooting phase.

You get to have your cake and eat it too. He's very powerful, and you're sure to get one turn of mayhem with him, which should, with the right placement, be enough to earn back his points. Additionally, you get the response out of the opponent. He has to make large changes in his tactic to deal with this guy.


Wahts wrong with this agains, the closer they get to my horde the happier I become!
I'm not expecting Tyranid players to dislike him, though one I know agrees with my take on him, and has already stopped using him.


Captn Shrike >.> Vanguard with Powerfists. . . GG Doom GG
Sure that works... for one army. I already stated some examples of how an assault against this chap could work, but they are few and far between, just like your example here. My point was that shooting is really the only generally reliable way to snuff him, and even that is shaky. Plus, do you think Shrike and a Vanguard squad with powerfists, something that all together will run you at least 400 points (if you take just one power fist, jump packs and nothing else) is a reasonable solution?
If you're almost by definnition required to counter a 90 point unit with something that costs 4-5 times as much, there's a design flaw.
It's all of this together. Assuming he doesn't scatter to the far edge of the world, he will, against almost all opponents, statistically bring down more than his own cost in one turn, it will cost the attention of many, more expensive units to ensure a reasonable statistical chance of him dying, and you'll probably have to move some other units around to avoid them getting sucked dry in your own shooting phase.

I'm repeating myself for ump-teenth time with this, and so are you :)
We don't see eye-to-eye on this. My experiences with this guy have been sufficiently extreme, without being statistically improbable and without me being careless in my preparations for his arrival, I'd say.

There's every chance that I'm very wrong on this. That the dice were against me in a big way, and I just didn't notice, that I made huge mistakes, that I could easily have avoided, something. Time will tell.
As for now, I stand by the assertion that for 90 points, his powers are far too great, and, regardless of price, he becomes far too powerful on the basis of a few lucky rolls.

MystheDevourer
29-01-2010, 00:11
Mys, as totgeboren said, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Remember at all times with this guy that he costs 90 points. With a spore to deploy him, which is the scenario we're discussing, he's up to 130 points. That's less than 1/10 of a standard size army of 1500 points.

What do you get for 8,667 % of your entire army allowance?

If things go bad: You get a unit that may do nothing at all. This is the downside of any gamble, I dare say of any Deep Striking unit.
The Nid player is out a small fraction of his army. It's a loss, but a small one, not even comparable in points to losing an average unit of Deep Striking Terminators, Storm Boyz or Raveners, which most would argue is a loss you could live with. Consequently, so is the loss of the Doom.

If things go good: You get a unit that drops down, and before the enemy even has a chance to respond (still your turn) starts handing out wounds that ignore armor saves. Not to a single unit, but to anyone in range that isn't a vehicle. Afterward, still before the enemy can respond you get a, by now probably, high S, AP1 Large blast at BS4. More death and destruction.
When your opponent gets his turn, he's now faced with two options:
1) Throw disproportionate amounts of firepower and/or manpower at this one model (remember, 90 points worth) and in the process allow most of the rest of the army (more than 90 %) to go relatively free, and hop for the best. As anyone who plays against marines (which is everyone, eh? ;)) knows, 3+ are not impossible, but can be extremely annoying.
2) Run away into the arms of the waiting Tyranid horde. This not only brings a fatal CC-hell closer, it also hampers his coming shooting phase.

You get to have your cake and eat it too. He's very powerful, and you're sure to get one turn of mayhem with him, which should, with the right placement, be enough to earn back his points. Additionally, you get the response out of the opponent. He has to make large changes in his tactic to deal with this guy.


I'm not expecting Tyranid players to dislike him, though one I know agrees with my take on him, and has already stopped using him.


Sure that works... for one army. I already stated some examples of how an assault against this chap could work, but they are few and far between, just like your example here. My point was that shooting is really the only generally reliable way to snuff him, and even that is shaky. Plus, do you think Shrike and a Vanguard squad with powerfists, something that all together will run you at least 400 points (if you take just one power fist, jump packs and nothing else) is a reasonable solution?
If you're almost by definnition required to counter a 90 point unit with something that costs 4-5 times as much, there's a design flaw.
It's all of this together. Assuming he doesn't scatter to the far edge of the world, he will, against almost all opponents, statistically bring down more than his own cost in one turn, it will cost the attention of many, more expensive units to ensure a reasonable statistical chance of him dying, and you'll probably have to move some other units around to avoid them getting sucked dry in your own shooting phase.

I'm repeating myself for ump-teenth time with this, and so are you :)
We don't see eye-to-eye on this. My experiences with this guy have been sufficiently extreme, without being statistically improbable and without me being careless in my preparations for his arrival, I'd say.

There's every chance that I'm very wrong on this. That the dice were against me in a big way, and I just didn't notice, that I made huge mistakes, that I could easily have avoided, something. Time will tell.
As for now, I stand by the assertion that for 90 points, his powers are far too great, and, regardless of price, he becomes far too powerful on the basis of a few lucky rolls.

Oh I get what your saying it is not all that hard, but for something that is decently cheap I can help the survivability of the entirety of my army by having a bit of luck on the reserves roll then i am perfectly content. If he makes my opponent change his tactics that then allows me to exploit the new fastly built tactic and that means my survivability has also jumped more. All in all it does exactly what i wish it to do, and that is pop up and say "Shoot at me NOW!" while the rest of my army continues forward saliva dripping from their mouths in anticipation of the nice fleshy meal (unless your necrons then we are just trying to GTFA before more appear. . . ) they are about to have. Like you say it is ALL luck with him meaning that it cna go good and it cna go bad, last time I checked dice were the way we played this game, and so if that is the case how are we not using "luck" to play anyways?

What was the problem again?

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2010, 00:16
If he works against units in transports, then he is very over-powered. If he doesn't, then he's probably a bit over the top, and incredibly boring, as he provides just another reason to mech up. Neither version is, therefore, good...

As an Imperial player, it also means I'm almost obliged to buy a DH Inq and mystics ant DH insurance policy. No brainer, so again, boring.

Scriboergosum
29-01-2010, 01:39
Oh I get what your saying it is not all that hard, but for something that is decently cheap I can help the survivability of the entirety of my army by having a bit of luck on the reserves roll then i am perfectly content. If he makes my opponent change his tactics that then allows me to exploit the new fastly built tactic and that means my survivability has also jumped more. All in all it does exactly what i wish it to do, and that is pop up and say "Shoot at me NOW!" while the rest of my army continues forward saliva dripping from their mouths in anticipation of the nice fleshy meal (unless your necrons then we are just trying to GTFA before more appear. . . ) they are about to have. Like you say it is ALL luck with him meaning that it cna go good and it cna go bad, last time I checked dice were the way we played this game, and so if that is the case how are we not using "luck" to play anyways?

What was the problem again?

I believe I stated earlier that I realise there's an important element of luck in this game exactly because we use dice, but because there is a very large number of dice being thrown by each side for each game, the law of averages will take over in by far most games.
Sure, one player might be more than the other in a game, but in general I do believe that this game is less about luck and more about choosing a well-balanced force, making the right decision about what to shoot with which weapons, who to assault, educated guesses at ranges and so on and so forth.

This unit is 99 % luck, and can easily be so effective that it earns back it's points 4-5 times over in the course of just one turn, never mind what it can do if not killed after that. And all this is thanks to very few rolls of the dice. People sometimes make the mistake of thinking many dice means a game depends much on luck. This is obviously not true, it is the games that involves few rolls of the dice that depends much on luck. Any other unit in the Tyranid Codex needs to roll a lot of dice over a lot of rounds to kill 4-500 points of damage, not so with the Doom. He can do it in a flash.

I realise you like the distraction he causes, and I'm not against that. You can however do the very same with a unit of infiltrating Genestealers, a Deep Striking Trygon or Mawloc or a Mycetic Spore containg a brood of Warriors or a Carnifex. All of those, and numerous other possibilities offered by this very interesting codex, can provide the distractions you look for, and are at the same time much more balanced, much more about skill and less about luck. The Doom needn't be in there if it's distraction you want, plenty other choices for that.

I would have no problem with this guy if he cost significantly more or if his leech power only targetted one unit or only worked during the Nid shooting phase or something else.
He's a really fun idea, great concept, but it's as if they had a lot of good, powerful abilities they wanted to give him and then couldn't decide which to leave out, so they just gave him everything.

MystheDevourer
29-01-2010, 02:19
I believe I stated earlier that I realise there's an important element of luck in this game exactly because we use dice, but because there is a very large number of dice being thrown by each side for each game, the law of averages will take over in by far most games.
Sure, one player might be more than the other in a game, but in general I do believe that this game is less about luck and more about choosing a well-balanced force, making the right decision about what to shoot with which weapons, who to assault, educated guesses at ranges and so on and so forth.

This unit is 99 % luck, and can easily be so effective that it earns back it's points 4-5 times over in the course of just one turn, never mind what it can do if not killed after that. And all this is thanks to very few rolls of the dice. People sometimes make the mistake of thinking many dice means a game depends much on luck. This is obviously not true, it is the games that involves few rolls of the dice that depends much on luck. Any other unit in the Tyranid Codex needs to roll a lot of dice over a lot of rounds to kill 4-500 points of damage, not so with the Doom. He can do it in a flash.

I realise you like the distraction he causes, and I'm not against that. You can however do the very same with a unit of infiltrating Genestealers, a Deep Striking Trygon or Mawloc or a Mycetic Spore containg a brood of Warriors or a Carnifex. All of those, and numerous other possibilities offered by this very interesting codex, can provide the distractions you look for, and are at the same time much more balanced, much more about skill and less about luck. The Doom needn't be in there if it's distraction you want, plenty other choices for that.

I would have no problem with this guy if he cost significantly more or if his leech power only targetted one unit or only worked during the Nid shooting phase or something else.
He's a really fun idea, great concept, but it's as if they had a lot of good, powerful abilities they wanted to give him and then couldn't decide which to leave out, so they just gave him everything.

So your saying that with other codices that have units that are not as great as the doom but faster then the Nid's typical army is not over powering as well? Let us look at IG, they can kill 500 pts models in 1 turn of fire. Yes they need alot of fire power to do it but they get it done, they can even kill tons with their Tanks.

What about Space Puppies? Daemons. Tau ( really only with their S10 weapons), or even the Dreaded Orks? yes nothing that is 90 pts cheap but we only get one and once it is gone that so called "99%" luck Elite is gone. I can not field 3 Dooms like SM can field 3 Sternguard. Albeit the Doom can kill those easily enough but then agains I am sorry it wil take the rest of my army 3 more turns to finish off the last 1700 pts. if not longer!

Really saying he is to cheap is something I agree with. Now if you ask if I will stop playing him I will tell you "NO" straight to your face. Hate him or me as you will. But I play my nids with what I am given. If I find that I want to try something new or if I want to play a different way then I might side him but I like him.

As for your "99% luck" I would disagree. I would like to say 75% because I still have to pick where he goes. then luck comes as an add on

Pink Horror
29-01-2010, 02:33
Sorry no thank you. I like the way it is, if you dont like it take more S8 weapons. Besides it does not always hit, you can elect to MOVE in different directions and then i have to shoose which one to chase. Simple is it not. Now stop QQing.

troll... why are you telling me to take more weapons, like I am the other guys? my tyranid collection probably has more size, breadth, and experience than yours, if you want to accuse me of having some personal problem. Why does everyone assume that balance arguments are drawn along personal lines? :confused:

MystheDevourer
29-01-2010, 03:31
troll... why are you telling me to take more weapons, like I am the other guys? my tyranid collection probably has more size, breadth, and experience than yours, if you want to accuse me of having some personal problem. Why does everyone assume that balance arguments are drawn along personal lines? :confused:

Wow really, yes you likely have a bigger army but if you play nids then ok your good, whats the problem again for you?

Vepr
29-01-2010, 03:44
If the Doom of Malan'tai really is the most powerful thing in the new nid codex Tyranids are even more boned than we previously thought.

Scriboergosum
29-01-2010, 04:14
So your saying that with other codices that have units that are not as great as the doom but faster then the Nid's typical army is not over powering as well? Let us look at IG, they can kill 500 pts models in 1 turn of fire. Yes they need alot of fire power to do it but they get it done, they can even kill tons with their Tanks.

I think you said it yourself, "they need alot of firepower". They need almost every unit in their army blasting away to do that kind of damage, not just a tenth of it.


What about Space Puppies? Daemons. Tau ( really only with their S10 weapons), or even the Dreaded Orks? yes nothing that is 90 pts cheap but we only get one and once it is gone that so called "99%" luck Elite is gone. I can not field 3 Dooms like SM can field 3 Sternguard. Albeit the Doom can kill those easily enough but then agains I am sorry it wil take the rest of my army 3 more turns to finish off the last 1700 pts. if not longer!
Again, I think you said what needed to be said. Yes, other armies have very powerful units, but none are as dirt cheap as this one.


Really saying he is to cheap is something I agree with. Now if you ask if I will stop playing him I will tell you "NO" straight to your face. Hate him or me as you will. But I play my nids with what I am given. If I find that I want to try something new or if I want to play a different way then I might side him but I like him.
I'd never ask you to not field him, nor would I hate you if you did. But for a friendly game, I'll always try to use a friendly army, so to speak. I play, among other armies, Orks and for friendly games I don't field tons of Nob bikers, I don't play the Wound Allocation-game with my regular Nobz, generally just try to stay away from the "power play" options. Partly because they are boring to play with, partly because they are boring to play against. The best victories, and the best defeats, are the close ones. Crushing your opponent or getting crushed is much less fun.
Please don't take that to mean that I think of the Doom as "power play" all on its own, I just think it's a horribly designed and balanced unit.


As for your "99% luck" I would disagree. I would like to say 75% because I still have to pick where he goes. then luck comes as an add on

The "99 % luck"-thing was not meant as literally as it seems you took it. Regardless, I'd say your own description of him being 75 % luck, if that is to be taken literally, still leaves a lot to be desired in terms of quality of design. He was obviously designed as a glass cannon, a fluke that might do something good or might fail completely.
From my standpoint, however, the potential gain is very much out of proportion the potential loss.

SideshowLucifer
29-01-2010, 04:32
I can't quite compaire this thing to JotWW. That single power has killed far far less ten iving Lightning and Muderous Hurricane. Jaws has actualy accounted for not a single kill thus far in about 5 games. A better compairison would be Zoans in a drop pod thing, or Logan and the Long Fangs in a drop pod. The difference here is the price as was stated.

think if they rule this power needing LoS then it will make it a little bit better balanced all in all. Also, I'm curious why people seem to play on golf courses. We usualy play with enough area terrain and terrain that deep striking can be tricky and shooting all he way across the table isn't exactly easy to do.

Vepr
29-01-2010, 04:32
The biggest problem with the Doom is that he is an elite. He is cheap until you look at what you give up for him being likely a one shot wonder. Elites are packed for nids so you are likely giving up anti-tank for him which is a big choice to make. He would be a no brainer if it was not for the fact that Zoanthropes and Hive Guard are so imiportant to nids.

MystheDevourer
29-01-2010, 06:35
The biggest problem with the Doom is that he is an elite. He is cheap until you look at what you give up for him being likely a one shot wonder. Elites are packed for nids so you are likely giving up anti-tank for him which is a big choice to make. He would be a no brainer if it was not for the fact that Zoanthropes and Hive Guard are so imiportant to nids.

Yes we do sacrifice a bit for it, for the simple fact that I get less tank busting power I can suffer AFTER he is dead.

totgeboren
29-01-2010, 08:36
No the best option is to spread out more, sorry if that takes away from your curtain of fire but if you dont you will lose that curtain anyways.

So you are saying everyone should have about a 13" gap between their units? (a medium round base with an added 6" radius)

Please take a ruler and see for yourself the absurdity of this claim, especially with a spearhead deployment.

So, since this is something that can't really be achieved in-game, how are we to play more carefully again?

You might as well say that everyone should include an inquisitor with two mystics, regardless of what army they play.

I am starting to think you are trolling as the Pink Horror said... because your arguments seem constructed more to **** people off rather than defend your view...

For example, your claim that IG can easily kill over 500 pts in a single turn.

Ofc IG can kill 500+ pts per turn, but that is the firepower from an entire army, worth about 1500-2000 pts, and the IG player need to play someone who is bunching up his units a whole lots, not using cover, and being extremely lucky with his dice.

How can you compare this to a 90 pts model that you can't defend against? You can't spread out, because the table is not big enough, you say you can't use cover, and you can't use transports. And the nid player need much less luck to cripple two enemy infantry units and take out an enemy tank than what the IG would need.

Still, comparing a 90 pts unit to an entire 1500-2000 pts army and because they can kill about the same in one turn, and then drawing the conclusion that they are balanced is obvious trolling.

Crimson Reaver
29-01-2010, 10:19
I think this rule is one of those instances where you have to agree the interpretation with your opponent beforehand, because neither argument leaves me entirely convinced of how the game should be played. I think for 90pts, the interpretation of the Doom not being able to kill transported troops leaves it balanced, if it can just kill everything it seems very cheap.

Again, this is IMHO and I have no particular desire to comb through the various books looking for interpretations. I think talking to your opponent and agreeing beforehand makes a lot of sense and I hope GW FAQ this as soon as possible, to clarify either way.

Looking at the Doom away from this particular rules issue, having played against it and having seen what it can do, I feel that it isn't a balanced unit in the slightest and it offers a means to kill a lot of enemy models for very little risk in return. I can't really think of much else in the game that can affect people in every single turn, not just the Tyranid player's, nor something that can cause as many casualties.

Game balance-wise, it is one of those no-brainer units that are potentially so good you can't afford not to take them. In 2000pts it doesn't even come to 1/20th of your total points, you can lose it to enemy fire without it really mattering, but if it works it can easily win you the game. I saw it eat around 600pts worth of Chaos last weekend, it was quite distressing to see how much effort it took to kill and what it killed before we took it down.

Combine the Doom, Deathleaper, the Mawloc, Spore Mines and so forth, the Tyranid army certainly feels like the old 2nd Edition list which can screw your enemy up before they even get to deploy, and can continue to screw up their plans throughout the game. Thematically it works but playing against it felt odd and although I had a balanced army I felt ill-equipped to take them on. I'm very much used to the swarming tide of bugs, that you have to shoot the heck out of, and then try and win the inevitable combats in a desperate rearguard action in the later turns. Now it feels like the whole game is spent reacting to whatever odd stuff the Nid player brought along this week. They effectively have the initiative from the army selection phase of the game. I tend to play quite aggressively, and this really throws me out of my stride. It is an interesting challenge though.

In terms of game balance overall, I don't know quite where they fit as yet, but I'm certainly having to change my army list to cope with them. I don't use special characters myself and I think either I'll have to agree with my opponents whether we forgo using characters, or whether we both use them and consider it a gloves off sort of game.

Scriboergosum
29-01-2010, 13:58
you can lose it to enemy fire without it really mattering, but if it works it can easily win you the game.

Exactly the experience I've had with it. No one unit should have that quality. The fact that it's a 90 point unit just makes it worse.
I have seen it several times turn a sure defeat for the Tyranid player into a victory, more or less on its own in a matter of a turn or two.
This will not be the average performance of it, surely, but the mere fact that it can do this, makes it a very odd unit, and one where I'm sure the designers failed to realise the actual destructive power.
Or maybe they don't think it can hurt units inside transports and they all just play mech armies :)

Crimson Reaver
29-01-2010, 15:20
I think (certainly from what I've heard) is that the guys at GW play the game how it should be played (ie in a friendly, non-competitive spirit) and they all have a pretty good idea of what does what. However when you release a book you get many thousands of times more people picking over the same rules and then exploiting anything they can find.

To me personally, it feels like a transport should protect against the effect, as otherwise it appears to be too powerful for the points. GW don't write perfect rules but they do at least attempt game balance, and I don't think it would be their intention to have a 90 point unit potentially cripple 5-6 units in each shooting phase. Not when you are paying 200pts and more for 5 Terminators.

beagle1
29-01-2010, 15:45
Why is everybody costing this unit at 90pts.
Surely you MUST include the 50pts pod to make him usefull in anyway?
So please treat him[and his sporepod-buddy] as a 140pts [elite] unit when comparing him to say a 65pts [st10 ord.] Marbo [put him on the board were you want] unit.
As for units in transports; if they can shoot out of -[and target the Doom it self!] and claim objectives from transports they seem to be fair game to me.
As to removing it, so far I managed to kill it twice with a simple 105pts two meltagun [re-roll]deepstriking Stormtrooper [Doomsday] team.
I'll stick to my Marbo [who is called Buck and misses an eye] anyday.
Cheers B1

MystheDevourer
29-01-2010, 16:00
Why is everybody costing this unit at 90pts.
Surely you MUST include the 50pts pod to make him usefull in anyway?
So please treat him[and his sporepod-buddy] as a 140pts [elite] unit when comparing him to say a 65pts [st10 ord.] Marbo [put him on the board were you want] unit.
As for units in transports; if they can shoot out of -[and target the Doom it self!] and claim objectives from transports they seem to be fair game to me.
As to removing it, so far I managed to kill it twice with a simple 105pts two meltagun [re-roll]deepstriking Stormtrooper [Doomsday] team.
I'll stick to my Marbo [who is called Buck and misses an eye] anyday.
Cheers B1

Well the cheapest you go is 40 extra pts but I always try for the Cluster Spines so its 140 for me.

Doom should cost about 15-25 more pts but even then I am certain that people would still complain so I honestly do not care. I run him for the reaction of the opponent and to distract for a turn less of shooting if not more if he kills alot!

MystheDevourer
29-01-2010, 16:13
So you are saying everyone should have about a 13" gap between their units? (a medium round base with an added 6" radius)

Please take a ruler and see for yourself the absurdity of this claim, especially with a spearhead deployment.

So, since this is something that can't really be achieved in-game, how are we to play more carefully again?

You might as well say that everyone should include an inquisitor with two mystics, regardless of what army they play.

I am starting to think you are trolling as the Pink Horror said... because your arguments seem constructed more to **** people off rather than defend your view...

For example, your claim that IG can easily kill over 500 pts in a single turn.

Ofc IG can kill 500+ pts per turn, but that is the firepower from an entire army, worth about 1500-2000 pts, and the IG player need to play someone who is bunching up his units a whole lots, not using cover, and being extremely lucky with his dice.

How can you compare this to a 90 pts model that you can't defend against? You can't spread out, because the table is not big enough, you say you can't use cover, and you can't use transports. And the nid player need much less luck to cripple two enemy infantry units and take out an enemy tank than what the IG would need.

Still, comparing a 90 pts unit to an entire 1500-2000 pts army and because they can kill about the same in one turn, and then drawing the conclusion that they are balanced is obvious trolling.

Well I am sorry I continue to say he is cheap for what he does but if you do not like it take that up with Cruddace as well and while your at it tell him to lower our MC prices so that they become DECENT OPTIONS! I use ALL my options available to me good or bad I try them out, when I find something good I use it. How is that bad, just because you do not want a single unit to kill half your army because you do not want to spread out just enough to allow at MAX 2 units to be hurt what can i do about that?

Look I honestly do not care what you say I really do not, reason being is because while you focus on one tiny aspect of the army that HAS the chance of doing major damage to no damage I am good, that means my hormagaunts get closer and my Tryanid Primes draw ever closer. Can you defend against Nyjal? Last I checked IG had an Inquisitor guy who HITS DS units. . . Hmmm maybe your in the wrong army, there is at least OSMETHING out there that can potentially stop it before the effect goes off.

Complain all day long, hell even gnash your teeth but even then it will change nothing. I am sorry we play a game that is dictated by the will of GW the ONLY way to change ANYTHING is to stop buying their things. Can you do that?

If I sound like a troll so be it but I am sick and tired about people harping on the single unit in the new Nid codex that can do what it does in one turn, and Oh who by the way is not THAT hard to kill as has already been stated!

I have been defending MY views, people like you who are saying that I am not need to go back a and check ALL my posts on the Doom. I am an advocate of it for a reason, I have pointed out the EXACT rulings and really have not even been given HALF a response in return with HALF the rulings I have spouted. I am sorry that this is the FIRST EVER unit that has an effect that states what it does, my bad let me go call Cruddace up and talk to him about it. Better yet, lets just all stop and wait for the FAQ, I have already convinced officals at how flimsy their arguments on against the doom are just like the rest of yours and I am sick of seeing the same "but but but this says this!" bs Like i said this is the FIRST time a unit has had this effect of this calibar that does not HIT ANY thing against it, it breezes through the loopholes like a champ then takes a melta to the face and calls it a day.

OH btw you dont have to spread out EVERY unit, think like a tactician, I will WANT to go after your HQs and elites that things that cost the most keep them separate and your good, it is not that hard!

beagle1
29-01-2010, 16:21
Well the cheapest you go is 40 extra pts but I always try for the Cluster Spines so its 140 for me.


Doesn't the entry read: Take one of the following.
Meaning you'll have to take one?

Cheers B1

Vepr
29-01-2010, 16:29
As a nid player I think it would be over the top if it affected troops inside of a transport even if it was more expensive.

That being said if it does end up being FAQ'd that it does hit troops in a transport I am not going to cry any tears for other armies after watching things like JotWW being cast from inside rhinos at my MC's and having gants and gaunts burned up by the score from the safety of transports firing ports etc.

Netfreakk
29-01-2010, 16:34
Sorry for the late response, I've been busy, but here goes:


Wraithsight is not an Ld test...

Get hot! allow a model to attack itself. Same with Perils of the Warp. These in no way set a precedent for allowing a model to attack an enemy model in a transport.


You are correct, I was mistakenly mixed it up with other rules. It isn't a LD test.




Considering how powerful, cheap and easy to use this particular model is, I honestly don't even think the intent is for it to be able to effect embarked enemy units.

I can see you're point, however I cannot see the intent of the author and thus can only conclude that by RaW it effects every non-vehicle units within 6"

I have a RaI as well. I think that it's meant to effect units as Nids don't have AV and thus the author is allowing more anti-AV units.

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2010, 16:49
Why is everybody costing this unit at 90pts.
Surely you MUST include the 50pts pod to make him usefull in anyway?
So please treat him[and his sporepod-buddy] as a 140pts [elite] unit when comparing him to say a 65pts [st10 ord.] Marbo [put him on the board were you want] unit.
As for units in transports; if they can shoot out of -[and target the Doom it self!] and claim objectives from transports they seem to be fair game to me.
As to removing it, so far I managed to kill it twice with a simple 105pts two meltagun [re-roll]deepstriking Stormtrooper [Doomsday] team.
I'll stick to my Marbo [who is called Buck and misses an eye] anyday.
Cheers B1


How about because:
Mambo doesn't have a S10 ordnance weapon
Mambo has a 1 shot weapon that hits one unit, not everyone nearby, in every shooting phase.

If you want to deal with mambo, any half way competent in CC unit, ie a vanilla tactical squad, will kill him without breaking a sweat, or losing many guys- ie probabaly 1 marine, or a couple of average boys, hormaguants etc.

Try the same thing with Doom, and the unit will probably lose quite a few on the way in, thanks to soul suck

3++ save are very annoying indeed if you're trying to ID stuff. Yes, that squad with a couple of meltas has a fair chance of dropping him, but they also have a fair chance of missing, 1s to wound, or boucing off the 3++ , and then the thing is left alive for another 2 shooting phases...
You simply can't afford to let it live, so it will carry on absorbing firepower until it goes down NOW. Shame there is an advancing army to deal with too.
As opposed to Mambos 5+ save

If you want a valid comparison for a unit that can appear, and cause similar levels of disruption, the nearest is probably a unit of stern guard in a drop pod, with lots of combi-weapons and such like. That's going to be 300 or so points.

MystheDevourer
29-01-2010, 17:09
As a nid player I think it would be over the top if it affected troops inside of a transport even if it was more expensive.

That being said if it does end up being FAQ'd that it does hit troops in a transport I am not going to cry any tears for other armies after watching things like JotWW being cast from inside rhinos at my MC's and having gants and gaunts burned up by the score from the safety of transports firing ports etc.

My point, if an Chaos Sorcerer can from a Rhino turn my Doom into a mindless spawn of Chaos why can my effect not touch it? I will not cry it will just mean I will have to focus on tearing things open faster that is all really.

Wait a Vanilla tac squad with just a power fist has the chance of killing the Doom. . . even IF you lose your LD by the max the Sgt is still alive. . . whats the problem there? I1? psh the doom SUCKS in CC I have had him there. . . .

MystheDevourer
29-01-2010, 17:11
Doesn't the entry read: Take one of the following.
Meaning you'll have to take one?

Cheers B1
Ahh your right ^-^ silly me. I thought it was may take, but since it does say that then I have a 50 pt mindless 1 kp pod to drop it in! YAY!

Chairman_woo
29-01-2010, 17:24
And to think the 1st time I read the codex I wrote him off as a bit useless :rolleyes:

His powers are extremeley nasty with or without the squads in vehicles thing, but he'll drop very quickly to lets say a 5 man SM dev squad with missiles. 4x 2+ to wound with a 1/3rd chance of beating the invun. Not every list has a unit or 2 with a reasonable number of s8+ shots I know but I suspect you would be rather foolish to face a nid army without, given even a MC free list will still contain multiple obvious targets for s8+ (warriors, zoans etc.).

On a turn by turn basis he really dosent seem that hard to counter (tho I'm shure he can be a massive pain in the ****), the big sticking point seems to be the potential of his initial onslaught i.e. drops in the right spot and he can rape half your army with a couple of decent rolls. But in most games it seems like this is very unlikeley and the worst he seems likeley to do is screw over one or 2 units a game if that.
It reminds me a little of the leaman russ punisher, looks terrifying at first but the average rolls are actually rather poor against most units. Average roll on 3d6 is 9 so if we throw a bit of basic deviation in there you are looking at between 7 and 11, which for most MEQ units is going to be around 1 or 2 casualties with cheap stuff like guard suffering a little more but seemingly in proportion. Shure you can get lucky and almost wipe out most units with lucky rolls, but the enemy units are about as likeley to fluke their leadership tests and take absoluteley 0. (Maths isent my strongest point so if i'm not even in the ballpark feel free to take my head off with a large mathhammer). Look at the marine Thunderfire, if all 4 of those templates hit in a turn with decent rolls and bunched up enemy's you could take half the opponents army in one go, but its not likeley and if the enemy puts any real effort into countering it it's not likeley to be there by turn 2.

So yes it is heavily luck based and it seems to have more potential for its cost than most units, but its always 1 s8 hit from oblivion and can just as easily suck and fail on LD rolls as it can pwn. I would say JOTWW is just as scary if not worse for largeley the same reasons (i.e. the potential damage is insane)

The rules dispute is a hard one to call, tho I am having a much harder time justifying the idea that he cant damage squads in vehicles. Afterall theres no targeting or los involved its a persitant arura of awfull/awsomeness and atleast on a fluff level would clearly effect you no matter what you were behind/in. But NM lets leave the arguements for the rules forum.